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#1
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
As chronicled here, I bought a Delta 1010LT audio card so that I can bridge my
direct outs in my Mackie 1402-VLZ. While I was testing a couple of mics while using just the mixer, I noticed a dramatic lack of headroom and distortion in the mic. It turns out that the Input 1 to the Delta 1010LT is loading the Mackie preamp. If I remove the insert, the problem clears. The direct out is 1/4" TS, and the 1010LT input is XLR. The tip is wired to pin 3, and the sleeve is wired to pin 1. Input 1 on the 1010LT is normally a mic input except that I have it jumpered as a line input. Apparently changing the input to a line input instead of a mic input does not change the (low) impedance. Channels 3 through 6 of the Mackie are feeding (RCA) inputs 3 through 6 on the 1010LT, and those inputs are not loading the preamps. Am I overlooking a setting on the 1010LT? |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
mcp6453 wrote:
As chronicled here, I bought a Delta 1010LT audio card so that I can bridge my direct outs in my Mackie 1402-VLZ. Direct output or isnerts? While I was testing a couple of mics while using just the mixer, I noticed a dramatic lack of headroom and distortion in the mic. It turns out that the Input 1 to the Delta 1010LT is loading the Mackie preamp. If I remove the insert, the problem clears. The direct out is 1/4" TS, and the 1010LT input is XLR. The tip is wired to pin 3, and the sleeve is wired to pin 1. Input 1 on the 1010LT is normally a mic input except that I have it jumpered as a line input. Apparently changing the input to a line input instead of a mic input does not change the (low) impedance. Channels 3 through 6 of the Mackie are feeding (RCA) inputs 3 through 6 on the 1010LT, and those inputs are not loading the preamps. Am I overlooking a setting on the 1010LT? -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#3
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/6/2011 9:06 PM, hank alrich wrote:
mcp6453 wrote: As chronicled here, I bought a Delta 1010LT audio card so that I can bridge my direct outs in my Mackie 1402-VLZ. Direct output or isnerts? Inserts |
#4
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/6/2011 8:09 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
As chronicled here, I bought a Delta 1010LT audio card so that I can bridge my direct outs in my Mackie 1402-VLZ. While I was testing a couple of mics while using just the mixer, I noticed a dramatic lack of headroom and distortion in the mic. It turns out that the Input 1 to the Delta 1010LT is loading the Mackie preamp. If I remove the insert, the problem clears. The direct out is 1/4" TS, and the 1010LT input is XLR. This is because Input 1 (and 2, I think) on the Delta 1010LT is a mic input. It has too much gain for the signal level coming from the mixer's direct output, and it also has too low an input impedance which, indeed, will load the direct output. This is a bad mismatch. Input 1 on the 1010LT is normally a mic input except that I have it jumpered as a line input. Apparently changing the input to a line input instead of a mic input does not change the (low) impedance. It depends on what the jumper does. But there may also be a problem with your wiring. The direct outputs of the 1402 aren't differential, but they are balanced. While I can't promise that it will work better, you might try a cable or adapter that has a TRS plug on the mixer end, wired with the tip to pin 2, right to pin 3, and sleeve to pin 1 of the XLR. There are enough variations in how XLR-1/4" cables and adapters are wired that you could have something wrong there. Note, too, that there are two jumpers and therefore four possible settings, all documented in the manual. There are two sensitivities for the mic input, one of which has gain in the same ballpark as a "consumer" line input. Also there are two sensitivities for the line input, a "pro" and a "consumer" level. However, the specs say that the input impedance is 9.5 k ohms minimum, which shouldn't load the direct outputs of the mixer. Check the jumpers. The manual is a bit confused in this section (at least the downloadable version) but I believe they should be set like in Figure 2, both "down." -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#5
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/7/2011 6:25 AM, mcp6453 wrote:
Inserts Oh. Why didn't you say "inserts" instead of "direct outputs?" I forgot that the 1402 doesn't have direct outputs. Then you definitely have a wiring problem. I'll let someone else talk you through it. I'm running out of patience this morning. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
mcp6453 wrote:
As chronicled here, I bought a Delta 1010LT audio card so that I can bridge my direct outs in my Mackie 1402-VLZ. note: must mean inserts. While I was testing a couple of mics while using just the mixer, I noticed a dramatic lack of headroom and distortion in the mic. It turns out that the Input 1 to the Delta 1010LT is loading the Mackie preamp. If I remove the insert, the problem clears. Well ... The direct out is 1/4" TS, and the 1010LT input is XLR. The tip is wired to pin 3, and the sleeve is wired to pin 1. This is wrong, tip goes to pin 2, either not connected or bridnged, and housing goes to pin 1. Input 1 on the 1010LT is normally a mic input except that I have it jumpered as a line input. Yes, and strictly speaking probably balanced also when jumpered to line level input, with pin 2 hot and pin 3 return. So connectin to pins 1 and 3 is plain wrong. Apparently changing the input to a line input instead of a mic input does not change the (low) impedance. Well, yes, lowish, aint no specs on M-audios site? Channels 3 through 6 of the Mackie are feeding (RCA) inputs 3 through 6 on the 1010LT, and those inputs are not loading the preamps. Am I overlooking a setting on the 1010LT? You are overlooking the difference between bal and unbal wiring, also check minimum load impednce on the M1202. I'd make a small snake with 4 stereo jacks with pin and ring bridged to unbal out, and wire the required xlr with 1 and 3 bridged. Dunno about the impedance load that inputs 1 and 2 on the 1010lt constitutes, a 1:2 tranny may or may not be required, my recollection is that such a tranny gives you a 1:4 impedance conversion. I will no doubt be aware almost instantly if I got that wrong ... Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/7/2011 11:35 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
You are overlooking the difference between bal and unbal wiring, He also doesn't understand the wiring of insert jacks. He needs to connect the tip and ring together on the Insert (TRS plug) end of the cable, connect the center conductor of the shielded cable to tip+ring, and the shield to the sleeve. On the XLR end, the shield goes to pins 1 and 3, and the tip+ring goes to pin 3. The plug goes ALL THE WAY (not half-way, though that'll work) into the Insert jack. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#8
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/7/2011 12:21 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
He also doesn't understand the wiring of insert jacks. He needs to connect the tip and ring together on the Insert (TRS plug) end of the cable, connect the center conductor of the shielded cable to tip+ring, and the shield to the sleeve. On the XLR end, the shield goes to pins 1 and 3, and the tip+ring goes to pin 3. The plug goes ALL THE WAY (not half-way, though that'll work) into the Insert jack. Actually I do understand the wiring. The *insert* jack on the Mackie is, of course, TRS, not TR. I apologize for the brain fart. The TRS plugs connected to the inserts are wired correctly to bridge the outputs of the preamps. The Tip and Ring are jumpered and connected to Pin 3 of the XLR. The Sleeve is connected to Pin 1. I questioned whether to jumper Pins 1 and 2 on the XLR, but having read on the GearSlutz or somewhere that the 1010LT works with an unbalanced input with Pin 2 open, I didn't jumper it. There is no schematic and the manual sucks. The problem description is the same. When I connect the Mackie Channel 1 insert to the 1010LT, the Mackie preamp is loaded excessively. The manual does not say what the input impedance is for the mic preamps except to say that they are "compatible" with low impedance microphones. Obviously the input impedance for Inputs 1 and 2 is much lower than 9.5K. I'll probably throw a line to mic transformer in there, which kills two birds with one stone. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/7/2011 2:54 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
I apologize for the brain fart. The TRS plugs connected to the inserts are wired correctly to bridge the outputs of the preamps. The Tip and Ring are jumpered and connected to Pin 3 of the XLR. The Sleeve is connected to Pin 1. I questioned whether to jumper Pins 1 and 2 on the XLR, but having read on the GearSlutz or somewhere that the 1010LT works with an unbalanced input with Pin 2 open, I didn't jumper it. There is no schematic and the manual sucks. Odd. That sounds like it's wired as "pin 3 hot." Scott would approve, but all of Europe and most of the Americas wouldn't. The reason why you're getting loading, if the 1010 input is wired conventionally, is that you may be nearly grounding the Mackie output by connecting it to Pin 3 rather than Pin 2. Just move that wire from Pin 3 to Pin 2, and for good luck while you're in there with your soldering iron, connect Pins 1 and 3. The problem description is the same. When I connect the Mackie Channel 1 insert to the 1010LT, the Mackie preamp is loaded excessively. The manual does not say what the input impedance is for the mic preamps except to say that they are "compatible" with low impedance microphones. Obviously the input impedance for Inputs 1 and 2 is much lower than 9.5K. The spec sheet is kind of fuzzy about that, and 9.5K is certainly compatible with low impedance microphones. In fact, some might sound brighter into 9K than into 2K, but who's bragging? g Just put the signal on the right pin of the XLR and see if that doesn't fix your problem. It's easy and a lot cheaper and less destructive to the signal than using a transformer. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/7/2011 4:49 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/7/2011 2:54 PM, mcp6453 wrote: I apologize for the brain fart. The TRS plugs connected to the inserts are wired correctly to bridge the outputs of the preamps. The Tip and Ring are jumpered and connected to Pin 3 of the XLR. The Sleeve is connected to Pin 1. I questioned whether to jumper Pins 1 and 2 on the XLR, but having read on the GearSlutz or somewhere that the 1010LT works with an unbalanced input with Pin 2 open, I didn't jumper it. There is no schematic and the manual sucks. Odd. That sounds like it's wired as "pin 3 hot." Scott would approve, but all of Europe and most of the Americas wouldn't. The reason why you're getting loading, if the 1010 input is wired conventionally, is that you may be nearly grounding the Mackie output by connecting it to Pin 3 rather than Pin 2. Just move that wire from Pin 3 to Pin 2, and for good luck while you're in there with your soldering iron, connect Pins 1 and 3. The problem description is the same. When I connect the Mackie Channel 1 insert to the 1010LT, the Mackie preamp is loaded excessively. The manual does not say what the input impedance is for the mic preamps except to say that they are "compatible" with low impedance microphones. Obviously the input impedance for Inputs 1 and 2 is much lower than 9.5K. The spec sheet is kind of fuzzy about that, and 9.5K is certainly compatible with low impedance microphones. In fact, some might sound brighter into 9K than into 2K, but who's bragging? g Just put the signal on the right pin of the XLR and see if that doesn't fix your problem. It's easy and a lot cheaper and less destructive to the signal than using a transformer. I ran Tip/Ring of the plug connected to the insert on channel 1 to Pin 2 and Sleeve to Pins 1 and 3. For some reason that I don't understand, the loading problem appears to have been solved. The mic preamp is not loaded such that it distorts. The exercise has uncovered another issue. The Delta card and my M-Audio Audiophile 2496 in a different computer have a lot of digital noise in the playback. Record is fine, but the S/N ratio on playback is unacceptable. The noise is clearly audible when the playback level is set for a normal level. The Delta card is in the last slot (farthest from the other cards) and the Audiophile is in the slot next to the video card. Has anyone here had any experience getting rid of the noise? If I cannot get rid of it, it's a deal breaker. |
#11
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Mackie 1402-VLZ and Delta 1010LT
On 2/8/2011 8:29 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
I ran Tip/Ring of the plug connected to the insert on channel 1 to Pin 2 and Sleeve to Pins 1 and 3. For some reason that I don't understand, the loading problem appears to have been solved. The mic preamp is not loaded such that it distorts. I can understand that. You removed Pin 3 from the signal source, and apparently Pin 3 on the Delta 1010LT is nearly ground. The exercise has uncovered another issue. The Delta card and my M-Audio Audiophile 2496 in a different computer have a lot of digital noise in the playback. Both computers, each with its own, different, sound card have the same kind of noise? Is that "digital noise" crackles, pops, and skips/mutes? Or is it hums and buzzes? Is the noise in playback no matter what the source, or only when you play back a recording that you made? Do you get the same kind of noise when you play back a downloaded or streaming audio file? If you could post a short example of something you've recorded where it could be downloaded, someone could check your recording and see if that's where the problem lies. Do you have something connected to the computer that might be causing a problem with noise on the ground? This may not be obvious. For example, if you have a TV set which is connected to cable also connected to the computer so you can play the computer into the TV set? TV cable is, or at least used to be, a well known noise source. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
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