For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
opening statement lasted 9:05.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
boring voice that puts you to sleep...

Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah

Q: Was anything at all decided? Did either one of you actually
discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?
Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.

Joseph Oberlander a écrit :

For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
opening statement lasted 9:05.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile


Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
boring voice that puts you to sleep...

Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah



Q: Was anything at all decided? Did either one of you actually
discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?
Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.

According to Atkinson wish Krueger has been able to explains
and ellaborate his point of view in *person*... without the
parasitic contributions from the usual polluters and
hatemongers : Middius, Sackman, Weil, Richman...

Note that they have done their best during the months before
to exacerbate the passions, to provocate... in order to
change the debate in a bull**** scuffle.

Nobody wins ? Sure !
But IMHO it's not really important since the villains have lost.

:-)

"Lionel" wrote in message
...


According to Atkinson wish Krueger has been able to explains and
ellaborate his point of view in *person*... without the parasitic
contributions from the usual polluters and hatemongers : Middius, Sackman,
Weil, Richman...



hatemongering would be irrelevant, unless the debate were about France.



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Lionel wrote:
Joseph Oberlander a écrit :


For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
opening statement lasted 9:05.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile



Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
boring voice that puts you to sleep...

Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah




Q: Was anything at all decided? Did either one of you actually
discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?
Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.


According to Atkinson wish Krueger has been able to explains and
ellaborate his point of view in *person*... without the parasitic
contributions from the usual polluters and hatemongers : Middius,
Sackman, Weil, Richman...

Note that they have done their best during the months before to
exacerbate the passions, to provocate... in order to change the debate
in a bull**** scuffle.

Nobody wins ? Sure !
But IMHO it's not really important since the villains have lost.

:-)


You're probably right, but jhezzeus. 7 and 9 minutes respectively?
Me? My intro would have been this as John:
"Well, I'd like top say thanks you as well to everyone who came. Now,
unlike Arny, you all know who I am. I don't need to tell you all about
my past as it's covered in the convention booklet and can be found
as well at the magazine's website. That said, let's get down to audio.
Arny..."(insert direct in your-face question here)

Maybe 30-45 seconds tops then into a real discussion. Nine minutes
is ubsurd. Nobody gives a damn about what you did 20 years ago.
You, either Arny. This is like watching two politicians go at it.
Nobody gets in the other's face, nothing gets resolved.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
opening statement lasted 9:05.

Had there been a working PPT setup I would have been on time.

Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
boring voice that puts you to sleep...

Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah

Q: Was anything at all decided?

Is that a relevant criteria?

Did either one of you actually
discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?

I don't think that I heard anything from John that I hadn't heard
several times before.

Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.

It was definately not two monlogues - there was some interaction.
Well, at least until Harry started droning.

John Atkinson wrote:

Regarding your comments about what you referred to in another
r.a.o. posting as Harry Lavo's "filibustering" in Friday's
debate, I checked the recording and Harry's comment and question
took 3:50. Yes, this was on the long side but he did make one
important point, I felt, that had not been made by either of us.

I don't know what that might be.

For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
opening statement lasted 9:05.

OK, but unlike Harry, we actually said something relevant.

For example John, you basically admitted that you've never been
involved in a competently-run DBT.

Did that include the test of the Quad 405? Interesting question - I
have a friend who tells me he has one. When my house project is done
and my house is in some kind of order, I may set up a PCABX test of
it.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Did that include the test of the Quad 405? Interesting question - I
have a friend who tells me he has one. When my house project is done
and my house is in some kind of order, I may set up a PCABX test of
it.


castanets, here we come!



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Arny Krueger wrote:

Victor Martell wrote:


I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I
believe is tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow

by

blow of the proceedings?


You can probably gauge the perceived outcome of the debate by the
delay before it is posted in full. ;-)

What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.

Joseph Oberlander said:




What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.

What needed to be resolved? It's already well estaqblishjed that the
Stereophile methodolgy for discerning the qualities of audio gear are
worthless. Having a chance to wrap up JA's slithering out of the
previous attempts to pin him down in a one on one with Arny was the
most important thing to come out the whole thing. Well that and
knowing that Fremer is still a spoiled brat, and hasn't changed much
since he attacked Nousaine at some other show several years ago.

Mike McKelvy wrote:

Joseph Oberlander said:





What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.


What needed to be resolved? It's already well estaqblishjed that the
Stereophile methodolgy for discerning the qualities of audio gear are
worthless. Having a chance to wrap up JA's slithering out of the
previous attempts to pin him down in a one on one with Arny was the
most important thing to come out the whole thing. Well that and
knowing that Fremer is still a spoiled brat, and hasn't changed much
since he attacked Nousaine at some other show several years ago.

Well, hopefully any live debate like this would at least attempt
a serious discussion of some sort. Then again, it WAS a convention,
which is pretty much a waste of time and space going in.

Well, hopefully any live debate like this would at least attempt
a serious discussion of some sort. Then again, it WAS a convention,
which is pretty much a waste of time and space going in.


The fight was "fixed". Get your money back.

Joseph Oberlander said:

What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.

This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless. Therefore, it's pretty
obvious that the "debate" wasn't intended to "resolve" anything, at least
not on JA's part. Maybe Krooger went in carting his usual truckload of
delusions and paranoia; who knows. But you can easily discern JA's
objectives for inviting Mr. **** to take the floor, since he stated them
plainly a month or more ago.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.

It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
having the debate in the first place.

I am impressed. You managed an entire paragraph without a single
scatological reference.

In , Schizoid Man wrote :


"George M. Middius" wrote in message

This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire
issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.

It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
having the debate in the first place.

I am impressed. You managed an entire paragraph without a single
scatological reference.

"Having a "debate" about this is like debating the virtues of pepper vs.
salt -- it's meaningless".

It would be interesting at this point to know :
- If George remembers that John Atkinson is at the initiator and the
oragnizator of the "debate" ?
- If George remembers that he pretended that John Atkinson will pulverized
Arnold Krueger's arguments during the "debate" ?
- Why, during the past months, George has done so much noise around such
"meaningless" subject ?

I'm afraid that we will remain without any answers to these questions.

:-D

Schizoid Man said:

This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.

It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
having the debate in the first place.

Your fantasies interest you? Not surprising.

You've completely misconstrued what I said. Did you doff your dot in honor
of the so-called "debate", or have you been sniffing fairy dust?

I am impressed. You managed an entire paragraph without a single
scatological reference.

You're becoming suspiciously ****ty. Time for a bath, perhaps? ;-)

George M. Middius wrote:


Joseph Oberlander said:


What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.


This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless. Therefore, it's pretty
obvious that the "debate" wasn't intended to "resolve" anything, at least
not on JA's part. Maybe Krooger went in carting his usual truckload of
delusions and paranoia; who knows. But you can easily discern JA's
objectives for inviting Mr. **** to take the floor, since he stated them
plainly a month or more ago.

You made my point quite well. It was utterly pointless and they
both are failures. A *REAL* discussion would have focused on
a couple of topics and gone into them in depth. There was zero
intellectual knowledge to be gained from this by the convention
goers, which is why I said they both failed. The time and space
at the convention should have been for the convention atendees'
benefit instead of time for Arny and John to blather on and on.

Obie-Wanna-Clue said:

This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless. Therefore, it's pretty
obvious that the "debate" wasn't intended to "resolve" anything, at least
not on JA's part. Maybe Krooger went in carting his usual truckload of
delusions and paranoia; who knows. But you can easily discern JA's
objectives for inviting Mr. **** to take the floor, since he stated them
plainly a month or more ago.

You made my point quite well. It was utterly pointless and they
both are failures.

Funny how two people can read the same words and understand them
completely differently....


A *REAL* discussion would have focused on
a couple of topics and gone into them in depth.

In your terms, that would have been equally pointless. In my terms, which
you still don't understand, it depends what the topics were.

There was zero
intellectual knowledge to be gained from this by the convention
goers, which is why I said they both failed.

True but irrelevant.

The time and space
at the convention should have been for the convention atendees'
benefit instead of time for Arny and John to blather on and on.

You have completely missed the point of the exercise. Let's hope your
business acumen is a tiny bit better, else we'll have to dismiss you as a
Ferstler wannabe.