[Kat]

Hi.

I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions
for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came
across some doubts about microphones and the different types of
microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical
questions.
What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the
microphone would you recommend for the following situations: an indoor
rock concert, an indoor classical orchestra concert, an interview for
five persons in a closed room at a radio station and an outdoor
interview to a single person? Are there any particular reasons for each
of your recommendations?

Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's
useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and
people working in this area.

Once again, thank you

[Richard Crowley]

"Kat" wrote ...
What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the
microphone would you recommend for the following situations:

Does "situation" mean recording, or reinforcement, or both?

an indoor rock concert,

Do you mean recording an intact, live event?
(As a "taper" or videographer?)
Or do you mean capturing a live event multi-track for mixdown and release?
Or do you mean as the reinforcement provider?
(Where you are providing ALL the mics for the PA system/monitor)

an indoor classical orchestra concert,

Depends on the size of the group, the size/acoustics of the room,
whether an audience is present, and even the kind of music,
solo instruments, etc.

an interview for
five persons in a closed room at a radio station

A cardioid microphone on an articulated boom for each
participant. (Assuming they are sitting around a table in
a typical talk-show-equippped studio.)

and an outdoor interview to a single person?

A "drive-by" conversation on the street? A sit-down interview?
Radio?, TV? Obvious? Clandestine?

Are there any particular reasons for each
of your recommendations?

More than you can imagine. Most of your questions are way too
broad (undefined) to elicit legitimate answers, IMHO. In most
cases, at least for me, they bring up more questions than answers.
Competent audio professionals take dozens of factors into
consideration when making these kinds of mic selection and
placement decisions. Not the least of which is the budget and
the resources available (either in the equipment cache, or available
by rental, etc.)

Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's
useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and
people working in this area.

Mic selection and placement are evergreen topics of conversation
here. You can look at the archives for any month you like and find
at least a few conversations about these topics.

[Kat]

What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the
microphone would you recommend for the following situationsoes "situation" mean recording, or reinforcement, or both?

an indoor rock concert,Do you mean recording an intact, live event?
(As a "taper" or videographer?)
Or do you mean capturing a live event multi-track for mixdown and release?
Or do you mean as the reinforcement provider?
(Where you are providing ALL the mics for the PA system/monitor)


I mean using microphones to record and reinforce.

an indoor classical orchestra concert,Depends on the size of the group, the size/acoustics of the room,
whether an audience is present, and even the kind of music,
solo instruments, etc.

Medium size room, with audience, and with a "typical orchestra",
violins, cello, flute, violoncells, etc.

and an outdoor interview to a single person?A "drive-by" conversation on the street? A sit-down interview?
Radio?, TV? Obvious? Clandestine?


A "drive-by" interview on the street for TV.

Thank you so much for your help

[Richard Crowley]

"Kat" wrote ...
an indoor rock concert,
I mean using microphones to record and reinforce.

This is still an impossibly broad question. Depends on the exact
instrumentation, vocals, type of music, preferences of musicians
and/or producers, etc. etc. etc. Might even depend on promotional
contracts with vendors (like athletes and shoes, etc. :-)

an indoor classical orchestra concert,
Medium size room, with audience, and with a "typical orchestra",
violins, cello, flute, violoncells, etc.

There have been several discussions of this here recently. Highly
recommend consulting the Google Groups Archives to review the
discussions. When done "properly" (IMHO), this is well over the
boundary from "science" into "art". Almost as profitable to ask an
artist which brushes and paint they prefer. There are also online
resources such as: http://www.josephson.com/mictech.html etc.

A "drive-by" interview on the street for TV.

Here (and in the the film-sound newsgroup
news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound ) ONE of the
favorite hand-held mics is the EV 635 or the double-
isolated version, the RE-50. There are ~equivalents
from other manufacturers, but I don't have the makes/
models committed to memory. I stick with my 635.

[Scott Dorsey]

Kat wrote:
I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions
for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came
across some doubts about microphones and the different types of
microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical
questions.

Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press.
Also Shure makes a little brochure on spot miking techniques, which they
might have on their website. www.josephson.com has a tutorial on
stereophony somewhere. These would be good starting points to help you
be able to ask the right questions.

What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the
microphone would you recommend for the following situations: an indoor
rock concert,

Last week I recorded a punk group in a small club. AKG 431 on vocals,
B&K omnis on the room, and I think I threw an EV RE-20 on the kick drum.
What I'd pick for a more pop band is totally different. Most people would
spot more than I do.

an indoor classical orchestra concert,

Last night I recorded a small orchestra with a pair of Josephson 606
cardioids in ORTF. It was right for the group and the room. In a different
room with a different group I might pick something different.

an interview for
five persons in a closed room at a radio station

Probably RE-20s on everyone. You want maximum intellibility and lowest
leakage. I might cluster them in groups of two or three around each
mike. Mix to mono, of course.

and an outdoor
interview to a single person?

EV 635A. It's an omni so you don't have to stay on-mike, and so it's not
sensitive to wind. It has no low end, so not much rumble leaks into it.
It's cheap and rugged.

Are there any particular reasons for each
of your recommendations?

Yes.

Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's
useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and
people working in this area.

Out of curiosity, why are you doing this, and do you work for a marketing
firm?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Kat wrote:

I mean using microphones to record and reinforce.

These are totally different jobs, though. Usually when I am recording a
concert that also has sound reinforcement, I'll wind up using a lot of
my own microphones sitting right next to the PA guy's microphones, because
what I want out of the mike feed is different than what he does.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

Kat wrote:

Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's
useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and
people working in this area.

Term papers cheerfully written at a dollar a word.

This is an impossibly broad question. I'd suggest that you narrow down
your topic to something like "to record an orchestra in a reasonable
concert hall" or "for sound reinforcement of guitarist/singer at an
open stage" and then try again.

[WillStG]

Kat wrote:
Hi.

I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions
for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came
across some doubts about microphones and the different types of
microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical
questions.

Doubts about types of microphones? If you are researching as
essay, without any practical experience to draw on but only the
opinions of others, you need to make clear attributions to your
sources. Besides books and the opinions of working engineers, I would
suggest the Application guides and tutorials put out by manufacturers
like Crown, and www . dpamicrophones . com has it's "Microphone
university" and applications guides online. There are different ways
to approach doing the same thing, but the principles are similar. If
you want to reject noise you need a narrower mic pattern, if you want
to capture the nuances of a great sounding space you can use wider
patterns. Or not.

What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the
microphone would you recommend for the following situations: an indoor
rock concert, an indoor classical orchestra concert, an interview for
five persons in a closed room at a radio station and an outdoor
interview to a single person? Are there any particular reasons for each
of your recommendations?

Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's
useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and
people working in this area.

Rock Concert live sound, Classical concert recording, TV/Radio
studio work and ENG location recording, these are actually 4 different
areas of expertise and require different skill sets. And unless you
come up with a clearer focal point, an essay about what brand and model
of mic people put where, without the "why" and principles of it all is
going to be pretty boring reading.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Paul Stamler]

Along with the other books you go buy, dig up a copy of Alec Nisbett's "The
Technique of the Sound Studio".

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Smith]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Kat wrote:
I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions
for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came
across some doubts about microphones and the different types of
microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical
questions.

Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press.

I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal
Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle.
Is that it?

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Smith wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Kat wrote:
I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions
for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came
across some doubts about microphones and the different types of
microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical
questions.

Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press.

I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal
Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle.
Is that it?

I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook
that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for
acoustic music.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press.

I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal
Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John
Eargle.
Is that it?

I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook
that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for
acoustic music.

You sure you're not thinking of Nisbett? He was a bigwig at the BBC, and
"heavy on ambient miking and miking for acoustic music" is a perfect
description of "Technique of the Sound Studio".

Peace,
Paul

[Nick Brown]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook
that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for
acoustic music.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Amazon.com has used copies from $100, or £80 from amazon.co.uk

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

Since I last looked, it appears that Geoff Martin has made the whole of
his book "Introduction to Sound Recording" available to read online,
but also still available to buy in PDF format for CA $40, with $15 of
that going to the Canadian Cancer Society. The book runs to somewhere
around 900 pages, is thorough and very readable. It is however far more
aimed at 'how it works' than 'how to do it' - it's not a book full of
technique, but there is a lot of discussion of different stereo mic
configurations, and a fair chunk about surround mic arrays. But I'll
not blab on about it since you can see for yourself:

www.tonmeister.ca

-Nick

[Scott Dorsey]

Nick Brown wrote:

I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Bingo!

Amazon.com has used copies from $100, or =A380 from amazon.co.uk

That's insane. I mean, it's a good book, but not a $100 book.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Scott Smith wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Kat wrote:
I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions
for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came
across some doubts about microphones and the different types of
microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical
questions.

Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press.

I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal
Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle.
Is that it?

I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook
that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for
acoustic music.

Sounds like "The Technique of the Sound Studio" by Alec Nisbett (Focal
Press). There were many editions of this and the earlier ones
concentrated more on the basics.

There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is another
BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the acoustic design of
microphones and is very heavy going.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers]

Nick Brown wrote:


I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a
book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of
learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are
called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you
do it.

[Scott Smith]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nick Brown wrote:


I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a
book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of
learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are
called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you
do it.

While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the
wheel, you know?

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Smith" wrote in message
. ..

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nick Brown wrote:


I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a
book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of
learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are
called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you
do it.

While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the
wheel, you know?

But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science
and all the books in the world won't get you there without some
actual field/studio hands-on experimentation.

[Scott Smith]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"Scott Smith" wrote in message
. ..

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nick Brown wrote:


I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a
book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of
learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are
called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you
do it.

While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent
the wheel, you know?

But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science
and all the books in the world won't get you there without some
actual field/studio hands-on experimentation.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree. In addition, I think a person can potentially
accelerate the learning process by supplementing personal experience with
study under those who're already achieving the results they're after,
thereby providing key distinctions that might normally take much longer to
acquire on ones own. I consider it an adjunct, not a substitute for hands-on
experience.

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:10:49 -0500, Scott Smith wrote
(in article ):


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"Scott Smith" wrote in message
. ..

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nick Brown wrote:


I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a
book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of
learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are
called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you
do it.

While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent
the wheel, you know?

But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science
and all the books in the world won't get you there without some
actual field/studio hands-on experimentation.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree. In addition, I think a person can potentially
accelerate the learning process by supplementing personal experience with
study under those who're already achieving the results they're after,
thereby providing key distinctions that might normally take much longer to
acquire on ones own. I consider it an adjunct, not a substitute for hands-on
experience.

There is also the phenomenon of what's going on inside one's head. Hard to
explain. What sense one can make out of what one hears. Learning is a
cumulative process. I hear things in recordings now that I'm sure I wouldn't
have heard ten years ago.

In the late 1960s I was asked to play 12 string on a cut from an acoustic
blues LP. I was VERY honored and we had a great time. I played the vinyl many
many times re-enjoying it each time.

I finally put it away and re-discovered it years later. When I listened
again, I heard that the three mics had some pretty nasty phasing interaction
that I had never been able to hear before.

What's the line? "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

Maybe we should try to figure out how to be "ready" more often.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Scott Smith]

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:10:49 -0500, Scott Smith wrote
(in article ):


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"Scott Smith" wrote in message
. ..

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nick Brown wrote:


I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick,
1990.

Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording
Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the
chapter
only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed
overview of the book dedicated to microphones.

I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a
book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of
learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are
called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you
do it.

While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent
the wheel, you know?

But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science
and all the books in the world won't get you there without some
actual field/studio hands-on experimentation.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree. In addition, I think a person can potentially
accelerate the learning process by supplementing personal experience with
study under those who're already achieving the results they're after,
thereby providing key distinctions that might normally take much longer
to
acquire on ones own. I consider it an adjunct, not a substitute for
hands-on
experience.

There is also the phenomenon of what's going on inside one's head. Hard to
explain. What sense one can make out of what one hears. Learning is a
cumulative process. I hear things in recordings now that I'm sure I
wouldn't
have heard ten years ago.

In the late 1960s I was asked to play 12 string on a cut from an acoustic
blues LP. I was VERY honored and we had a great time. I played the vinyl
many
many times re-enjoying it each time.

I finally put it away and re-discovered it years later. When I listened
again, I heard that the three mics had some pretty nasty phasing
interaction
that I had never been able to hear before.

What's the line? "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

Maybe we should try to figure out how to be "ready" more often.

I agree. I also think this may be partially related to obscured objectivity
in some capacity, perhaps. In my experience, it isn't until we sometimes
distance ourselves from a project that we gain clearer insight.

[[email protected]]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook
that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for
acoustic music.

Ah, I have an original of that. Bit light on solid state though

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

[[email protected]]

lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes:

There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is
another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the
acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going.

The copy I have does not have an author:
"By the Staff of the
Engineering Training Department
BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION"

1951, 114pp

It does also have the Iliffe link, and interesting,
`Published for "Wireless World"'

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

[Adrian Tuddenham]

wrote:

lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes:

There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is
another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the
acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going.

The copy I have does not have an author:
"By the Staff of the
Engineering Training Department
BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION"

1951, 114pp

It does also have the Iliffe link, and interesting,
`Published for "Wireless World"'

The Robertson book has 357 pages, it is quite a large tome. I think
yours must be a different publication altogether.

There is also a BBC 'Technical Instruction" S2 called "Microphones"; but
that is a folder with sections for individual makes of microphone,
containing data sheets and comments. As it was intended to be updated
from time to time, the number of pages is not fixed.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[[email protected]]

lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes:

wrote:

lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes:

There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is
another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the
acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going.

The copy I have does not have an author:
"By the Staff of the
Engineering Training Department
BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION"

1951, 114pp

It does also have the Iliffe link, and interesting,
`Published for "Wireless World"'

The Robertson book has 357 pages, it is quite a large tome. I think
yours must be a different publication altogether.

What is the date on that? I wonder if it was done to replace the 51 version.

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

[Adrian Tuddenham]

wrote:

lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes:

wrote:

lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes:

There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is
another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the
acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going.

The copy I have does not have an author:
"By the Staff of the
Engineering Training Department
BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION"

1951, 114pp

It does also have the Iliffe link, and interesting,
`Published for "Wireless World"'

The Robertson book has 357 pages, it is quite a large tome. I think
yours must be a different publication altogether.

What is the date on that? I wonder if it was done to replace the 51 version.

"First published 1951 by arrangement with the BBC"

Mine is the Second Edition from 1963, so you are almost certainly right.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk