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  #81   Report Post  
surf
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote...
"surf" wrote in message
news
wrote

A much more likely scenario, Mr. Atkinson, is that your
reviewers are either deluded, incompetent and/or corrupt
and cynical.



A possible scenario then, is that the reviewers perceived
something you don't understand.


Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well enough.



thank you for confirming joey's assertion that one unlikely
scenario is that people sense things you don't understand.


  #82   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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" wrote in message
link.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news

" wrote in message
link.net...

"George Middius" wrote in message
...


duh-Mikey falls down and goes splat.

The fact that you have spent good money to subscribe to a magazine
that you detest is the classic case of stupidity.

I didn't, my wife did without my knowledge.

What does that tell you, Mickey?

That I know more about audio magazines than she does.
She knew only that it was about audio and figured I would enjoy it.


perhaps this mag is more to your liking.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/k...atingbugs.html

Still George's bitch I see.


I see you're still Arny's ass wipe.


  #83   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...


Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well enough.


After you've wiped your ass on another thousand dollar check.


  #84   Report Post  
surf
 
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" wrote...

"surf" wrote ...
wrote

A much more likely scenario, Mr. Atkinson, is that your reviewers are
either deluded, incompetent and/or corrupt and cynical.


A possible scenario then, is that the reviewers perceived something
you don't understand.


How could they perceive the impossible without being both deluded and
incompetent?


No one else is saying it's impossible Mike. Joey (McCarty) is saying "a
much
more likely scenario" and Arny is saying "not likely". Please stop saying
the
world is definitely flat.

Don't you think a claim as wierd as those being made for Mpingo disks or
Shakti Stones deserves some technical measurments?


A likely scenario is that they have no audible effect. And even if they
have
no audible effect, how can you say they didn't perceive something? You've
already stated that sighted listening is unreliable. duh.

That none have been offered pretty much says it all IMO.


Nope. It doesn't say it all.

But thanks for saying Malesweski is an asshole.


  #85   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Right now you've got some of the biggest boobs in the
history of Usenet on your team.


Admit it, you have no chance at all with Maggie.


Never have been attracted to big boobs.


your wife has a small rack?




  #86   Report Post  
surf
 
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote ...

For a magazine devoted to consumer audio to publish rather far-fetched
claims for a product without any attempt to substantiate them
other than by patently flawed methods -- should that be of concern to
people interested in consumer audio?



Have your concern, Steve. Share your concern.

These people hear beautiful music. When they try to compare two
setups and listen for differences, they're unable to hear what they
heard when they were listening to music, so they discard the testing
methodology as ineffective. They listen to music. They describe
what they hear. That's what the magazine is. You don't like it.
OK. Move on. You don't have to be a dick. You could be
wrong. The world may not be flat.


  #87   Report Post  
Len Moskowitz
 
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Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

Or indeed anything approaching a disclaimer that it IS only the
unsubstantiated opinion of one person.
So *everything* in that magazine should be viewed with great suspicion by
the non technical readers.


Isn't that true for every magazine? At least there are some wonderful
nuggets of solid information there -- most magazine don't even give you
that.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
  #88   Report Post  
Len Moskowitz
 
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Steven Sullivan wrote:

So, let's see, he said that putting a Mpingo disc on gear makes
it sound better than before.

If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it
go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong about
that either?


Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not.

(A bit of my background: My educational background is in
EE/Comp. Sci. and Psychology. My Psych interests are perception,
attention and cognition, while my EE interests are currently
audio-related. They both expressed by doing R&D in Artificial
Intelligence and designing binaural field recording equipment.)

The question for you is: what's the difference between loudness and SPL
(sound pressure level)?

You can measure SPL directly and objectively.

Loudness, in contrast, is a subjective perception and can't be measured
by test equipment. You can amass statistical data for groups (as in the
Fletcher-Munson curves) but a single-subject loudness evaluation tells
you essentially nothing.

So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that
the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove
it and neither can you.

If large groups of people say that they hear a difference, then there'd
be some statistical "proof" that there's a difference. But you, as an
individual, might not hear a difference.

So what's to argue about?

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
  #89   Report Post  
andy
 
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So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that
the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove
it and neither can you.


Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks
(whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the
subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth
of what is perceived or not.

  #90   Report Post  
George Middius
 
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Mr. **** doffs his raincoat.

Admit it, you have no chance at all with Maggie.


Never have been attracted to big boobs.


Firehoses are another matter, however.



  #91   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Len Moskowitz" wrote in message


Steven Sullivan wrote:

So, let's see, he said that putting a Mpingo disc on
gear makes it sound better than before.

If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it
go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong
about that either?


Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not.


Perceptions come in at least two different flavors: naive
and informed.

Informed people now know that the world is not at all
exactly what we perceive naively. That solid object is
really composed of atoms and space-wise mostly vacuum. The
perception that component A sounds different than component
B could be due to differences in loudness, timing or natural
variations in the listener's state of mind.

Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere
mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on
almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of
severe sanctions.



  #92   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"andy" wrote in message
oups.com
So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if
someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio
system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can
you.


Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see
Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then
simply blindfolding the subject while adding or
subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is
perceived or not.


Len is merely playing with words. The idea that Mpingo disks
are ineffective is a negative hypothesis, and is therefore
difficult or impossible to prove.

However, the idea that Mpingo disks are effective is a
positive hypothesis, and could possibly be proven.

But, the absence of proof is not proof of the absence.

OTOH, saying that you put forth a heck of an effort into
proving that Mpingo disks do something audible, and either
came up negative or had to do something impractical or
illogical is pretty meaningful. In these cases the truth is
in the eye of the beholder.

Note that some beholders couldn't see truth if it bit them
on the nose. Politics anybody? ;-)


  #93   Report Post  
George Middius
 
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Fun, fun, fun!

Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks
(whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the
subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth
of what is perceived or not.


This is what the audio hobby is all about. You're an inspiration.

  #94   Report Post  
George Middius
 
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The Rev. Kroofeces takes a dump and prepares to deliver a sermonette.

Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not.


Perceptions come in at least two different flavors: naive
and informed.


IOW, some have faith in what they can't perceive, and others don't.

Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere
mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on
almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of
severe sanctions.


Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to
banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the
Krooborg's hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a Hive-approved system,
and stay ye there until ye have learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be
that "level matching" is the first step on the road to audio 'borgism.

  #95   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"George Middius" wrote in
message


Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my
first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan
for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's
hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a
Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have
learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that "level
matching" is the first step on the road to audio
'borgism.


So George, you're saying that listening to a pair of HD580s
would be too much pain for you to bear?




  #96   Report Post  
George Middius
 
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The Krooborg is chowing down on a fresh turd. Everybody watch for flying
dingleberries.

Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my
first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan
for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's
hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a
Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have
learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that "level
matching" is the first step on the road to audio
'borgism.


So George, you're saying that listening to a pair of HD580s
would be too much pain for you to bear?


Tnanks Mr. **** for admitting that your best "system" is a pair of headphones.

  #98   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Denis Sbragion" wrote in message
6.1
Hello Arny,

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
news:W6ydnUUJFabDGrTeRVn- :
...
But, the absence of proof is not proof of the absence.


true, but the negative results IMHO could still be quite
useful. For example to me the fact that nobody has been
able so far to prove under DBT conditions that cables
make an audible difference (apart from few pathological
cases) is enough to avoid worrying about cables at all.


That would be a tiny leap of faith that most rational people
are able to make.

Even in the worst case that all concerns about supposed
reduced sensitivity of DBTs are true (and to be clear I
don't think they are true) all the negative results
collected so far clearly show that any supposed
difference between cables is subtle enough to escape
many DBTs performed by many different peoples under many
different conditions.


Well, consider all the reports of "mind-blowing differences"
that turn to mush when levels are matched, etc.

Considering that there are parts of
an audio chain that are so weak
that could be probably proven as audibly different even
if the DBT is performed while wearing eraplugs, I wonder
why I should worry about the effects of components that
have been so far negative even after many different
trials. I prefer to concentrate on the proven weak parts
of the chain, because there changes are probably going to
provide the greatest improvements.


Exactly.



English speaking
peoples use to call this "the biggest bang for the
buck", isn't it?


I'm more likely to consider removing the beam from the eye
before going after the dust under the rug.


  #99   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"George Middius" wrote in
message
The Krooborg is chowing down on a fresh turd. Everybody
watch for flying dingleberries.

Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my
first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan
for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's
hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a
Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have
learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that
"level matching" is the first step on the road to audio
'borgism.


So George, you're saying that listening to a pair of
HD580s would be too much pain for you to bear?


Tnanks Mr. **** for admitting that your best "system" is
a pair of headphones.


All things considered that would be an admission of your
ignorance, George. The world is full of really pretty
credible speakers that sonically underperform a pair of
HD580s.

BTW, who exactly is this person that you are *tnanking*,
George?


  #100   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:26:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

A possible scenario then, is that the reviewers perceived
something you don't understand.


Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well
enough.


Yes, you've claimed in the past that it smells like your toilet.


  #101   Report Post  
Len Moskowitz
 
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andy wrote:

So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that
the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove
it and neither can you.


Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks
(whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the
subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth
of what is perceived or not.


Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone changes their
perceptual gestalt, so you've proven nothing.

Perhaps everything about the listening experience matters? Quantifying
perceptions is a lot different that Test & Measurement.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
  #102   Report Post  
John Atkinson
 
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George Middius wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere
mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on
almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of
severe sanctions.


Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first
choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week
of audio torture.


Arny is not being totally forthcoming with the truth, George.
There are no "sanctions" on the forums at www.stereophile.com.
Instead, we decided to implement the same rule that r.a.h-e
applies wrt blind testing comments: that they be restricted to
threads that are specifically _about_ blind testing. In other
threads, posters are free to make comments about sound quality
without being subjected to demands for "proof" and questions
along the lines of "how many blind tests have you performed to
be so sure of what you say?"

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

  #103   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
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"Clyde Slick" said:


If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it
go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong about
that either?



But that's true.


Ever seen a green Ferrari? :-)



only in my rear view mirror.



**grin**

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005
  #104   Report Post  
Len Moskowitz
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

Informed people now know that the world is not at all
exactly what we perceive naively. That solid object is
really composed of atoms and space-wise mostly vacuum. The
perception that component A sounds different than component
B could be due to differences in loudness, timing or natural
variations in the listener's state of mind.


If there ever was a rationale for subjective opinion columns, you've
stated it quite precisely.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
  #105   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Len Moskowitz" wrote in message

andy wrote:

So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if
someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio
system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither
can you.


Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see
Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then
simply blindfolding the subject while adding or
subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what
is perceived or not.


Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone
changes their perceptual gestalt,


Of course.

so you've proven nothing.


Wrong Len. You've shown something with respect to the
changed perceptual gestalt.

Really Len, when is the last time that this kind of
double-talk work on a mentally competent adult? Or even an
older teenager?


Perhaps everything about the listening experience
matters?


Perhaps an occasional individual doesn't think that looks
are all that matters?

Quantifying perceptions is a lot different that
Test & Measurement.


My life was never the same after I fell in love with an
experimental psychologist.




  #106   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
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John Atkinson said:

Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere
mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on
almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of
severe sanctions.


Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first
choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week
of audio torture.


Arny is not being totally forthcoming with the truth, George.
There are no "sanctions" on the forums at www.stereophile.com.
Instead, we decided to implement the same rule that r.a.h-e
applies wrt blind testing comments: that they be restricted to
threads that are specifically _about_ blind testing. In other
threads, posters are free to make comments about sound quality
without being subjected to demands for "proof" and questions
along the lines of "how many blind tests have you performed to
be so sure of what you say?"


That's a reasonable policy, but this is Arnii Krooborg, not a reasonable
person. I believe that for Turdborg, your policy amounts to religious
discrimination. G






  #107   Report Post  
EddieM
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Denis Sbragion wrote

Hello Arny,

Arny Krueger wrote




...
But, the absence of proof is not proof of the absence.





Hello.


true, but the negative results IMHO could still be quite useful. For
example to me the fact that nobody has been able so far to prove under DBT
conditions that cables make an audible difference (apart from few
pathological cases) is enough to avoid worrying about cables at all. Even
in the worst case that all concerns about supposed reduced sensitivity of
DBTs are true (and to be clear I don't think they are true) all the
negative results collected so far clearly show that any supposed difference
between cables is subtle enough to escape many DBTs performed by many
different peoples under many different conditions.



You seems to be saying then that when the differences among the components
you wish to upgrade are subtle, then the dbt may not be a viable test to use
in detecting differences between those units. I thought all along that dbt is
use to detect subtle sound differences.

With regards to your confidence about DBT above, what do you think, in your
opinion, does the "test" or the "proctor" or the "methodology" ...etc. do in
proving beyond doubt (to you) that the components involve, indeed, sound
alike 'cause, as it show, each time test comparisons were made, they sound
the same.


Considering that there are parts of an audio chain that are so weak
that could be probably proven as audibly different even if the DBT is
performed while wearing earplugs, I wonder why I should worry about the
effects of components that have been so far negative even after many
different trials. I prefer to concentrate on the proven weak parts of the
chain, because there changes are probably going to provide the greatest
improvements.
English speaking peoples use to call this "the biggest bang for the
buck", isn't it?


--
Denis Sbragion



  #108   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Signal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" emitted :

OTOH, saying that you put forth a heck of an effort into
proving that Mpingo disks do something audible, and
either came up negative or had to do something
impractical or illogical is pretty meaningful.


It's meaningful if you lack confidence in your own
ability to make rational judgements to such a degree that
you require proof. ]


So what are you saying Dormer, its irrational to want proof
of anything?


  #109   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
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"Signal" wrote in message

"andy" emitted :

So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if
someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio
system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither
can you.


Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see
Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then
simply blindfolding the subject while adding or
subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what
is perceived or not.


Thank you for exposing the irrelevancy of DBTs for
consumers so succinctly...

Question.. do you routinely blindfold yourself when
listening?


Just shows that Dormer is so out-of-it that he thinks that
DBTs necessarily involve blindfolding.


  #110   Report Post  
George Middius
 
Posts: n/a
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dave weil said to FecesBorg:

Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well
enough.


Yes, you've claimed in the past that it smells like your toilet.


I thought he meant the sight of money makes him want to take a dump.



  #111   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message

In rec.audio.tech Len Moskowitz
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:


Informed people now know that the world is not at all
exactly what we perceive naively. That solid object is
really composed of atoms and space-wise mostly vacuum.
The perception that component A sounds different than
component B could be due to differences in loudness,
timing or natural variations in the listener's state of
mind.


If there ever was a rationale for subjective opinion
columns, you've stated it quite precisely.


I don't think so. the key words are "listener's state of
mind". In truth, the listener's state of mind". is
unknowable. Subjective opinions are always unknowable. What
we get in audio subjective opinion columns is what the
writer wants us to believe about his state of mind.

Most people read them to find out about the state of
equipment, not the state of some journalist's mind. The
state of the writer's mind usually has a liberal dose of
intellectual noise.

If there ever was a rationale for ignoring subjective
opinion columns about components, he's stated that quite
well here too.


Exactly.

That Len didn't get that tells me a little something about
his ummm, state of mind. ;-)



  #112   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
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"Signal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" emitted :

So, let's see, he said that putting a Mpingo disc on
gear makes it sound better than before.

If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it
go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong
about that either?

Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not.


Perceptions come in at least two different flavors: naive
and informed.


Oh yes... the moral crusade!


No, support for education.

So Paul, you are against education?

Snip gratuitous insults


  #113   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
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"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net wrote in message


That's a reasonable policy, but this is Arnii Krooborg,


Given your past criticisims of less-than-perfect spelling
George, this can't be a tyop.

Who is Arnii Krooborg?


  #114   Report Post  
George Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default



PD said:

It's meaningful if you lack confidence in your own ability to make
rational judgements to such a degree that you require proof.


One of Krooger's many problems is that he assumes all tweaks are phoney and
their proponents are all lying. If the scientific establishment were run by
'borgs, no investigations of perceived phenomena would be permitted because
"proof" would be required before data can be collected.

Remind me.. why do have faith in god?
One born every minute...


Good to have you back. What's kept you away?

Watch out for Sillyborg. He's been prattling on like a ninny about DBTs and it
turns out his entire system is some cheapo speakers and a low-end Pioneer
receiver.

  #115   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
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"Signal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" emitted :

So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if
someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio
system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither
can you.

Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see
Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then
simply blindfolding the subject while adding or
subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what
is perceived or not.

Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone
changes their perceptual gestalt,


Of course.

so you've proven nothing.


Wrong Len. You've shown something with respect to the
changed perceptual gestalt.

Really Len, when is the last time that this kind of
double-talk work on a mentally competent adult? Or even
an older teenager?


Oh dear Len, you have caused offense by making a valid
rational point.

Let the snot storm begin!


Looks like you've already provided the first squall of that
snot storm, Dormer.

Do you really lack that much personal insight?




  #116   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
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"Arny Krueger" said:

"Signal" wrote in message

"andy" emitted :



Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see
Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then
simply blindfolding the subject while adding or
subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what
is perceived or not.



Thank you for exposing the irrelevancy of DBTs for
consumers so succinctly...


Question.. do you routinely blindfold yourself when
listening?



Just shows that Dormer is so out-of-it that he thinks that
DBTs necessarily involve blindfolding.



The unknown poster known as "Andy" used that phrase first.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005
  #117   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
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"Arny Krueger" said:

It's meaningful if you lack confidence in your own
ability to make rational judgements to such a degree that
you require proof. ]


So what are you saying Dormer, its irrational to want proof
of anything?



How irrational is it to believe in a god, without any proof that it
exists?

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005
  #118   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Arny Krueger" said:

Given your past criticisims of less-than-perfect spelling
George, this can't be a tyop.



LOL!

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George Middius
 
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Talk about tripping over your own feet....

George, this can't be a tyop.


Riiiight........

  #120   Report Post  
andy
 
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So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that
the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove
it and neither can you.


Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks
(whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the
subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth
of what is perceived or not.


Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone changes their
perceptual gestalt, so you've proven nothing.


The nonsense referred to your daft assertion that one cannot test a
persons perception. If you believe that sight is important in this case
then simply substitute the Mpingo Discs with ones that look the same
but contain no working parts (assuming they have any).

Perhaps everything about the listening experience matters? Quantifying
perceptions is a lot different that Test & Measurement.


This statement is also largely nonsense. The act of measurement is
quantification.

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