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Angus Kerr Angus Kerr is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 7:41:58 PM UTC+2, Randy Yates wrote:
Luxey writes:

Will you free upgrade and why?


No, because I use linux (currently Fedora 2x).
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com


I've been on Linux since 2006. Work machine is Windows though.
There is some pain involved with audio drivers, always make sure I know the driver status before I buy. No linux drivers = no purchase.

I chucked Windows 8 off my wife's laptop because of the kindergarten looking interface.

Currently I'm flik flakking between KXStudio and Ubuntu Studio. Tried AV Linux but my hardware doesn't like it...

-Angus.
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On 5/11/2015 7:41 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:
I chucked Windows 8 off my wife's laptop because of the kindergarten
looking interface.


Kindy-looking applish interface not the best reason to chuck Win8 -
install ClassicShell and you can have any UI look you like, way back to
Win95 style.

Plenty of other reasons to chuck Win8 though, apparently.

And you don't feel at all hamstrung by your Linux choice apparently. Do
you keep up with the current SOTA on your 'work' machine, to see if
there is anything that you are missing out on ?

geoff
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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 1:07:04 PM UTC-5, Angus Kerr wrote:
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:33:14 PM UTC+2, geoff wrote:
On 5/11/2015 7:41 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:
I chucked Windows 8 off my wife's laptop because of the kindergarten
looking interface.


Kindy-looking applish interface not the best reason to chuck Win8 -
install ClassicShell and you can have any UI look you like, way back to
Win95 style.

Plenty of other reasons to chuck Win8 though, apparently.

And you don't feel at all hamstrung by your Linux choice apparently. Do
you keep up with the current SOTA on your 'work' machine, to see if
there is anything that you are missing out on ?

geoff


Look, Linux was a massive learning curve. But that was in 06 when Linux still had some driver issues with wifi and 3g. But I stuck with it because I suddenly realised what an idiot Windows had turned me into. Back in the days of DOS, I could do anything with a one liner command. Windows made me stupid and fearful of a command line interface.

Audio with Linux was another thing entirely. But it wasn't all bad, because that learning curve co-incided with children and babies and nappies and a general sleep deprived memory hole, where I remembered nothing between about '04 and '10. So I had the time to fiddle with Linux and get my knowledge up to scratch, and I wasn't really recording and playing in a band, just composing and doing my own thing...

My work PC is Windows 7. I'm not using audio stuff, just the general office things. I'm a bit of an OS slut and a tech junkie, so I really enjoy new experiences, and what I enjoy about a Linux distribution is that all your apps are already installed when you install the OS. If I want a multimedia distribution, I choose say Ubuntu Studio, and within 20 minutes of installing it, I'm up and running and all my multitracks are running in Ardour. The last Windows PC I set up for audio was a nightmare. There was one stupid CPU fan app that crashed ProTools and made it totally unstable. Took me a long time to find that little bug.



-- That's why I refuse to upgrade, unless there is absolutely something I need, but generally not. Most people use computers for entertainment only.

I like M$, such as with DOS, you could directly access hardware for blistering speed results, even video. However, standards (compatibility) for video were slim, even with VESA trying to help. Anyway, accessing hardware was way below the operating system, and if things ran foul, the operating system could not recover and froze or crashed. M$ knew they had to put an end to that, made them look bad, so rather than directly access hardware, M$ provided interrupts and standards, you (programmer) used them, so the OS remained in control. Granted, another level slowed things down some.

Jack


My main beef with Windows is that Microsoft treat their paying customers like criminals. I paid for 3 legitimate Windows XP OEM licences when I built up my 3 machines. When one of the motherboards failed, I got the total runaround when trying to activate the repaired machine. I thought to myself, the software pirates don't get treated like this, why me? I paid the money......

This latest licencing model of theirs does not bode well. What do you have to do, rent the OS? Well, in the good ol' USA, anything that makes money has got to be good.

Back to Linux though, nowadays, everything is really slick, I hardly ever have to use the command line, and can click my way through......

And of course, I have divorced myself from vendor lock-in of Digidesign.
Although, I do still have a doorstop Digidesign 002 Rack gathering dust..
My 2c.
-A.


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

Angus Kerr wrote:
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:33:14 PM UTC+2, geoff wrote:
On 5/11/2015 7:41 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:
I chucked Windows 8 off my wife's laptop because of the
kindergarten looking interface.


Kindy-looking applish interface not the best reason to chuck Win8
- install ClassicShell and you can have any UI look you like, way
back to Win95 style.

Plenty of other reasons to chuck Win8 though, apparently.

And you don't feel at all hamstrung by your Linux choice
apparently. Do you keep up with the current SOTA on your 'work'
machine, to see if there is anything that you are missing out on ?

geoff


Look, Linux was a massive learning curve. But that was in 06 when
Linux still had some driver issues with wifi and 3g. But I stuck with
it because I suddenly realised what an idiot Windows had turned me
into. Back in the days of DOS, I could do anything with a one liner
command. Windows made me stupid and fearful of a command line
interface.



Windows has a perfectly decent command line - has since 3.11.
All the Unix command line tools ( most, anyway ) are he
http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/

snip

--
Les Cargill
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Randy Yates[_2_] Randy Yates[_2_] is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

Les Cargill writes:

Angus Kerr wrote:
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:33:14 PM UTC+2, geoff wrote:
On 5/11/2015 7:41 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:
I chucked Windows 8 off my wife's laptop because of the
kindergarten looking interface.

Kindy-looking applish interface not the best reason to chuck Win8
- install ClassicShell and you can have any UI look you like, way
back to Win95 style.

Plenty of other reasons to chuck Win8 though, apparently.

And you don't feel at all hamstrung by your Linux choice
apparently. Do you keep up with the current SOTA on your 'work'
machine, to see if there is anything that you are missing out on ?

geoff


Look, Linux was a massive learning curve. But that was in 06 when
Linux still had some driver issues with wifi and 3g. But I stuck with
it because I suddenly realised what an idiot Windows had turned me
into. Back in the days of DOS, I could do anything with a one liner
command. Windows made me stupid and fearful of a command line
interface.



Windows has a perfectly decent command line - has since 3.11.
All the Unix command line tools ( most, anyway ) are he
http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/


Meh. I'd MUCH rather use cygwin if I need linux-on-windows.
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

Les Cargill wrote:

Windows has a perfectly decent command line - has since 3.11.


Command.com is not a decent command line. Powershell, though, Powershell is
an acceptably good command line.

All the Unix command line tools ( most, anyway ) are he
http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/


You can in fact install the Cygnus toolkit and get a lot of standard Unix
functionality, but if you do this you run into a lot of really annoying issues
with things like \ vs. / both having to be used for pathnames in different
contexts, some odd expansion behaviour. It's 90% like bourne shell, but
that last 10% can sometimes be a very frustrating thing.

The nice thing though, is that with samba you can share a filesystem between
a Unix box and a Windows box, and just jump from one to the other when you
need to do something that is appropriate for that system.
--scott

NetBSD for studio accounting... Ampex for studio audio....

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 11:04:05 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
Angus Kerr wrote:
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:33:14 PM UTC+2, geoff wrote:
On 5/11/2015 7:41 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:
I chucked Windows 8 off my wife's laptop because of the
kindergarten looking interface.

Kindy-looking applish interface not the best reason to chuck Win8
- install ClassicShell and you can have any UI look you like, way
back to Win95 style.

Plenty of other reasons to chuck Win8 though, apparently.

And you don't feel at all hamstrung by your Linux choice
apparently. Do you keep up with the current SOTA on your 'work'
machine, to see if there is anything that you are missing out on ?

geoff


Look, Linux was a massive learning curve. But that was in 06 when
Linux still had some driver issues with wifi and 3g. But I stuck with
it because I suddenly realised what an idiot Windows had turned me
into. Back in the days of DOS, I could do anything with a one liner
command. Windows made me stupid and fearful of a command line
interface.



Windows has a perfectly decent command line - has since 3.11.
All the Unix command line tools ( most, anyway ) are he
http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/

snip

--
Les Cargill


Not even sure where the Command "command" or "cmd" is in Win 7!!

And feel free to upgrade to Win 10, I hear it's an attack on pirated music and movies, it reports home what you have.

Jack
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Angus Kerr Angus Kerr is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 4:58:25 PM UTC+2, Scott Dorsey wrote:

You can in fact install the Cygnus toolkit and get a lot of standard Unix
functionality, but if you do this you run into a lot of really annoying issues
with things like \ vs. / both having to be used for pathnames in different
contexts, some odd expansion behaviour. It's 90% like bourne shell, but
that last 10% can sometimes be a very frustrating thing.


I hate the stupid Micro$oft \, it's all over the place - I have to re-find it on every new keyboard I use. But /, is always in the same place, just where I like it. Microsoft also has a crazy way of escaping long path names with spaces in it - you have to use double quotes (granted Unix is also a pain with the need to escape spaces and other strange characters with "\ ")

Windows XP made me lazy and stupid. I really felt like an idiot when I inserted a flash drive into a home built Linux firewall and did not know how to mount the filesystem. I could not see what was on the flash drive...

I don't often use the terminal, but it's pretty lekker (pronounced like 'lacquer' - South African slang for nice) to ssh into my headless server. Although web interfaces have their place. And it is far easier to type commands like "dd if=dev/sda1 of=image.bin" - clone a drive to image.bin, or "apt-get install ardour4" - install Ardour4 in one hit than clicking your way through menus. I am amazed at the mouse mileage people who grew up in the gui world clock up doing simple things like copying and pasting, compared to keyboard shortcuts. In fact watching them click-drag click-edit-copy click click-edit-paste drives me crazy.

The nice thing though, is that with samba you can share a filesystem between
a Unix box and a Windows box, and just jump from one to the other when you
need to do something that is appropriate for that system.


You talking about a samba server?

-A.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

Angus Kerr wrote:
The nice thing though, is that with samba you can share a filesystem betw=

een
a Unix box and a Windows box, and just jump from one to the other when yo=

u
need to do something that is appropriate for that system.


You talking about a samba server?


Or client. You keep the files on the Windows workstation and import them
onto the Unix workstation, or you keep them on the Unix workstation and
export them onto the Windows workstation. Either way, you see the same
files on two different kinds of machine and you can work with them as
you want.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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[email protected] garyv52@gmail.com is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:03:55 AM UTC-8, Angus Kerr wrote:
On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 4:58:25 PM UTC+2, Scott Dorsey wrote:

You can in fact install the Cygnus toolkit and get a lot of standard Unix
functionality, but if you do this you run into a lot of really annoying issues
with things like \ vs. / both having to be used for pathnames in different
contexts, some odd expansion behaviour. It's 90% like bourne shell, but
that last 10% can sometimes be a very frustrating thing.


I hate the stupid Micro$oft \, it's all over the place - I have to re-find it on every new keyboard I use. But /, is always in the same place, just where I like it. Microsoft also has a crazy way of escaping long path names with spaces in it - you have to use double quotes (granted Unix is also a pain with the need to escape spaces and other strange characters with "\ ")

Windows XP made me lazy and stupid. I really felt like an idiot when I inserted a flash drive into a home built Linux firewall and did not know how to mount the filesystem. I could not see what was on the flash drive...

I don't often use the terminal, but it's pretty lekker (pronounced like 'lacquer' - South African slang for nice) to ssh into my headless server. Although web interfaces have their place. And it is far easier to type commands like "dd if=dev/sda1 of=image.bin" - clone a drive to image.bin, or "apt-get install ardour4" - install Ardour4 in one hit than clicking your way through menus. I am amazed at the mouse mileage people who grew up in the gui world clock up doing simple things like copying and pasting, compared to keyboard shortcuts. In fact watching them click-drag click-edit-copy click click-edit-paste drives me crazy.

The nice thing though, is that with samba you can share a filesystem between
a Unix box and a Windows box, and just jump from one to the other when you
need to do something that is appropriate for that system.


You talking about a samba server?

-A.


I remember the early days of development on HP-UX machines where
the keyboards had the escape key next to your pinky so if you were a
'vi' user (as all of were) it was perfectly placed. Nowadays, not so much.

Gary V


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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 3:22:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:03:55 AM UTC-8, Angus Kerr wrote:
On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 4:58:25 PM UTC+2, Scott Dorsey wrote:

You can in fact install the Cygnus toolkit and get a lot of standard Unix
functionality, but if you do this you run into a lot of really annoying issues
with things like \ vs. / both having to be used for pathnames in different
contexts, some odd expansion behaviour. It's 90% like bourne shell, but
that last 10% can sometimes be a very frustrating thing.


I hate the stupid Micro$oft \, it's all over the place - I have to re-find it on every new keyboard I use. But /, is always in the same place, just where I like it. Microsoft also has a crazy way of escaping long path names with spaces in it - you have to use double quotes (granted Unix is also a pain with the need to escape spaces and other strange characters with "\ ")

Windows XP made me lazy and stupid. I really felt like an idiot when I inserted a flash drive into a home built Linux firewall and did not know how to mount the filesystem. I could not see what was on the flash drive...

I don't often use the terminal, but it's pretty lekker (pronounced like 'lacquer' - South African slang for nice) to ssh into my headless server. Although web interfaces have their place. And it is far easier to type commands like "dd if=dev/sda1 of=image.bin" - clone a drive to image.bin, or "apt-get install ardour4" - install Ardour4 in one hit than clicking your way through menus. I am amazed at the mouse mileage people who grew up in the gui world clock up doing simple things like copying and pasting, compared to keyboard shortcuts. In fact watching them click-drag click-edit-copy click click-edit-paste drives me crazy.

The nice thing though, is that with samba you can share a filesystem between
a Unix box and a Windows box, and just jump from one to the other when you
need to do something that is appropriate for that system.


You talking about a samba server?

-A.


I remember the early days of development on HP-UX machines where
the keyboards had the escape key next to your pinky so if you were a
'vi' user (as all of were) it was perfectly placed. Nowadays, not so much..

Gary V


Look at HP Go....

http://www.technologyreview.com/news...ystem-in-2015/

Let's see, when was it, decades ago, M$ said they'd have their OS boot from RAM (think HP had it). Yeah, right, not that intelligent!!

Jack

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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On 7/11/2015 8:03 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:


Windows XP made me lazy and stupid. I really felt like an idiot when
I inserted a flash drive into a home built Linux firewall and did not
know how to mount the filesystem. I could not see what was on the
flash drive...



Um, a great advert for Linux. Why not use an OS where you simply plug
something in and it works as you'd ex[pect, pretty much everything,
every time ?!

Nostalgia for command lines makes me think of the joys of hand-crank
starting of car engines.

geoff
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

geoff wrote:
On 7/11/2015 8:03 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:

Windows XP made me lazy and stupid. I really felt like an idiot when
I inserted a flash drive into a home built Linux firewall and did not
know how to mount the filesystem. I could not see what was on the
flash drive...


Um, a great advert for Linux. Why not use an OS where you simply plug
something in and it works as you'd ex[pect, pretty much everything,
every time ?!


Because sadly, such a thing doesn't exist. And as long as things go
wrong, it will be of benefit to be able to look inside the system and
see what is going wrong.

Nostalgia for command lines makes me think of the joys of hand-crank
starting of car engines.


Nostalgia? I'm using a command line right now. No nostalgia involved,
it's a lot faster to do some things. It's also harder to do other things,
so it's good that we have choices.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On 6/11/2015 3:07 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
Windows has a perfectly decent command line - has since 3.11.


Has since before 3.11, all the early Windows were simply a GUI on top of
DOS, so all the DOS commands remained.

Trevor.


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Angus Kerr Angus Kerr is offline
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Default Windows 10, or not?

On Saturday, November 7, 2015 at 1:14:12 AM UTC+2, geoff wrote:
On 7/11/2015 8:03 a.m., Angus Kerr wrote:


Windows XP made me lazy and stupid. I really felt like an idiot when
I inserted a flash drive into a home built Linux firewall and did not
know how to mount the filesystem. I could not see what was on the
flash drive...



Um, a great advert for Linux. Why not use an OS where you simply plug
something in and it works as you'd ex[pect, pretty much everything,
every time ?!


If that's where you think Linux is today, or what you quoted was in any way indicative of a general Linux Desktop system, then you are sorely mistaken..

The device I was talking about is a headless server appliance called Ipcop, which does firewalling and general network jobs like DHCP, proxy, etc. In my network setup it's running on an old Pentium III. It is entirely setup via a gui web point and click interface. I wanted to do something entirely outside of the normal parameters of what the box was designed to do, and then, needing to get under the hood, I came across my profound lack of knowledge at the time of how Unix in general worked. Just like in the early days of the Apple iPhone, if you wanted to do something as esoteric and out there as copy from one application and paste in another, it was not supported and you could not do it, until with a big media splash, they brought out an update with copy and paste.

A Linux Desktop system is just as simple to set up as a Windows system, and in some cases even easier. The command line is just a quicker soldering iron solution for some problems that can be solved with gui's and a *LOT* of mouse mileage. The Linux kernel is being continuously updated, and so most drivers are already included with the kernel. You don't have to install anything.

Nostalgia for command lines makes me think of the joys of hand-crank
starting of car engines.

It's not nostalgia. It's just efficiency. Almost all gui point and click interfaces generate command lines that run low level applications anyway. Lots of software companies make a lot of money by writing and charging for fancy gui interfaces that use command line applications that are available for free.

Also, btw, every Android phone out there, uses Linux. I use Android phones, would never consider anything else, and none of the reasons that I will stick to Android have anything to do with them running a Linux kernel. I have never ever needed to do anything on my Android phones via the command line, although it is available should I want it.

-Angus.
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