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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/7/2017 8:43 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:



No. Only someone ignorant of how loudspeakers are rated would interpret
it as the maximum power rating of the amplifier that's driving it.


** But that is often how speaker makers come up with their inflated numbers.

Its the amp power ( usually rms sine wave) that they figure is OK with the speaker under normal programme conditions with little or no clipping. The average power being delivered is then at most 1/4 ( -6dB )of the amp's rated power.

At lot hen depends on what the speaker's intended use, ie home hi-fi, live sound, disco or guitar.


poorly built and stupidly rated speaker (both cases are not uncommon)
driven by a 50 watt amplifier that's clipping badly is more likely to
suffer damage than when driven by a 500 watt amplifier that's
undistorted when running 100 watts.


** Well, a 50watt sine wave rated amp will deliver at most 100W when heavily clipped - so matching the output of the 500watt model unclipped.

The idea of using a LARGER amp to solve speaker burn out problems is a complete nonsense.

Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear.

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html


From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the
DC resistance in ohms

The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the
LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio
range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in
the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are
250 Hz or 400 Hz.

Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with
current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in
the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound."

So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive
reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing
frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored?

Also from your link: "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a
simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it
nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions.

The usual power handling test done on a high powered woofer is to
install it in a large cabinet or perhaps in free air, and feed it with
modified pink noise filtered to the 50 Hz to 500 Hz band or possibly the
50 Hz to 5,000 Hz band. (See note below.)

The output level from the amp is then adjusted upwards until the voice
coil is dangerously hot and left like that for a couple of hours. The
RMS voltage being delivered by the amp is measured, the value squared
and divided by the nominal impedance to give "max watts". See AES-2 1984
"Speaker Testing" link 2.

As a result of this patent absurdity - the actual watts dissipated by
the speaker during such testing may well be only 20 to 25% of the
published max watts figure."


I assume trying to calculate Power from Voltage x Current by
putting a current sensing resistor of 0.1 Ohm in series with the
speaker under test, would affect the measurements too much?

How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil?

Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure
the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output
level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you
could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still
survived) in the calculation.





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On 2/8/2017 7:17 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote:

If companies made some reasonable guesses as to the temperature
where the voice coil insulation and glues start to break down, they
could get an idea of the power rating. The AWG, or thickness of the
coil wire will make a difference too.


Okay, there are two kinds of failures. The first is due to overheating, and
the second due to overexcursion.

In the case of woofers, you can predict overheating although it's very
interesting to watch because the speakers tend to use airflow through the
voice coil to cool it. So you can get into a situation where a high power
at a low frequency is fine because there's enough excursion and enough air
moving through, but a lower power at a higher frequency isn't.

Overexcursion issues are totally different, though, and the waveforms that
cause them are totally different. Which is really why there's so much
slop in all of these, that musical waveforms vary so much between types of
music.

Perhaps the only accurate way is to get a few examples and perform
destructive testing with various sounds though them, at various RMS
Wattages, with the understanding that a constant 1kHz sine wave will NOT
be the same test as a good variety of REAL music.


That's what folks do, and then they put a big safety margin into place before
they publish it. How big a safety margin? You'll have to ask the marketing
department.

They could then establish a Mean Time before Failure (MTBF), and
say statistically that you could use this speaker with this amp, and
expect an average of this many hours of usage before blowing the speaker.


The only person who has ever even made a stab at that sort of thing is
Wolfgang Klippel. Klippel has done more to establish statistical quality
control of speaker drivers than anyone else ever, I suspect.
--scott


Assuming speaker power ratings shouldn't be taken seriously:

How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out
of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL
Control 12SR?

That would be a rated 80 Watt speaker in a cab that is rated for
200 Watts. I assume the average guitar amp speaker has a different
frequency response curve than your average PA speaker?

I could be REAL careful about not over-driving it!


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In article , Paul wrote:

How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil?


That depends entirely on the glue used and whether the voice coil is copper
or aluminum. In general the things done to improve power handling also
increase moving mass. But voice coil heating effects and how much you can
get away with ARE very well-studied.

Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure
the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output
level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you
could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still
survived) in the calculation.


The problem is that speakers will fail much more easily by heating from a
pink noise source than from music. However, they will fail much more easily
from overexcursion from music than from a pink noise source.

So the ability to handle pink noise tells you little about the ability to
handle musical waveforms.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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In article , Paul wrote:

Assuming speaker power ratings shouldn't be taken seriously:

How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out
of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL
Control 12SR?


Then it would sound totally different. Because the resonant frequency of
the driver is different, the efficiency of the driver is different, the
Q of the driver resonance is different, and the driver compliance is different.

The power rating? Nobody cares about that, that's pretty much irrelevant.

That would be a rated 80 Watt speaker in a cab that is rated for
200 Watts. I assume the average guitar amp speaker has a different
frequency response curve than your average PA speaker?


THAT is an understatement. Also, you'll notice that the rating on that
Celestion bears no connection to that of a driver intended for PA applications
since the Celestion is intended to handle high duty cycle clipped waveforms.
It likely has better power handling than a 200 watt PA driver. But really,
power handling is the least of your worries.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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PStamler PStamler is offline
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To the original poster: While the argument sbout rating goes on, save yourself some money. Instead of trying to revive that JBL, take the cash and go out and buy yourself a pair of Adam monitors, and enjoy.

Peace,
The Other Paul


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On 2/8/2017 9:32 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote:

Assuming speaker power ratings shouldn't be taken seriously:

How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out
of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL
Control 12SR?


Then it would sound totally different. Because the resonant frequency of
the driver is different, the efficiency of the driver is different, the
Q of the driver resonance is different, and the driver compliance is different.

The power rating? Nobody cares about that, that's pretty much irrelevant.

That would be a rated 80 Watt speaker in a cab that is rated for
200 Watts. I assume the average guitar amp speaker has a different
frequency response curve than your average PA speaker?


THAT is an understatement. Also, you'll notice that the rating on that
Celestion bears no connection to that of a driver intended for PA applications
since the Celestion is intended to handle high duty cycle clipped waveforms.
It likely has better power handling than a 200 watt PA driver. But really,
power handling is the least of your worries.
--scott


I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should
just drop it in, and see what happens?

I don't have to glue the front grill on until I am happy
with the sound of it!


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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 2/8/2017 5:10 PM, Paul wrote:
I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should
just drop it in, and see what happens?


By Jove! I think he's got it!



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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On 2/8/2017 3:39 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 5:10 PM, Paul wrote:
I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should
just drop it in, and see what happens?


By Jove! I think he's got it!


I wasn't talking to you, dumb****....



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In article , Paul wrote:

I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should
just drop it in, and see what happens?


I told you what would happen: it won't be anything approaching flat. You'd
probably do better just to patch the existing one with white glue.

But you won't hurt anything by trying it, it just won't sound very good.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote:
I wasn't talking to you, dumb****....


And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world.
You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning
on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com


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Paul wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear.

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html



From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the
DC resistance in ohms

The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the
LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio
range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in
the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are
250 Hz or 400 Hz.

Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with
current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in
the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound."


So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive
reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing
frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored?


** Nope - it ignores nothing.

Read what you just quoted, the MINIMUM lies between two rises in impedance at low and high frequencies. How else could it be a minimum ?



Also from your link: "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a
simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it
nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions.

The usual power handling test done on a high powered woofer is to
install it in a large cabinet or perhaps in free air, and feed it with
modified pink noise filtered to the 50 Hz to 500 Hz band or possibly the
50 Hz to 5,000 Hz band. (See note below.)

The output level from the amp is then adjusted upwards until the voice
coil is dangerously hot and left like that for a couple of hours. The
RMS voltage being delivered by the amp is measured, the value squared
and divided by the nominal impedance to give "max watts". See AES-2 1984
"Speaker Testing" link 2.

As a result of this patent absurdity - the actual watts dissipated by
the speaker during such testing may well be only 20 to 25% of the
published max watts figure."


I assume trying to calculate Power from Voltage x Current by
putting a current sensing resistor of 0.1 Ohm in series with the
speaker under test, would affect the measurements too much?


** Wrong.

Power = V x I only for resistive loads.

The actual dissipation can be found by measuring the power leaving the test amplifier - and that requires a wide band wattmeter.


How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil?


** Hot as it can be without risk of sudden failure.



Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure
the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output
level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you
could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still
survived) in the calculation.


** Some makers might do that - but the speaker must survive a couple of hours
at the rated figure and all examples sold be able to pass the same test.

Is there any point to you meanderings?



..... Phil


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Paul wrote:



How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out
of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL
Control 12SR?



** The Celestion guitar speaker has higher efficiency in the mid and upper ranges so would sound wrong, plus in that tiny enclosure would have no deep bass - plus way less power handling.

The performance would be ruined compared to the original JBL woofer.




..... Phil
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On 2/8/2017 4:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote:
I wasn't talking to you, dumb****....


And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world.
You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning
on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker.


Try turning on your brain, Mother****er....how's that for a
pronouncement?


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On 2/8/2017 5:25 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear.

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html



From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the
DC resistance in ohms

The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the
LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio
range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in
the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are
250 Hz or 400 Hz.

Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with
current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in
the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound."


So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive
reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing
frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored?


** Nope - it ignores nothing.

Read what you just quoted, the MINIMUM lies between two rises in impedance at low and high frequencies. How else could it be a minimum ?


But you state in your link that "A "nominal watt" is based purely
on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains
it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions."

So you yourself are saying that it's very rough guestimate! You
are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately!




Also from your link: "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a
simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it
nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions.

The usual power handling test done on a high powered woofer is to
install it in a large cabinet or perhaps in free air, and feed it with
modified pink noise filtered to the 50 Hz to 500 Hz band or possibly the
50 Hz to 5,000 Hz band. (See note below.)

The output level from the amp is then adjusted upwards until the voice
coil is dangerously hot and left like that for a couple of hours. The
RMS voltage being delivered by the amp is measured, the value squared
and divided by the nominal impedance to give "max watts". See AES-2 1984
"Speaker Testing" link 2.

As a result of this patent absurdity - the actual watts dissipated by
the speaker during such testing may well be only 20 to 25% of the
published max watts figure."


I assume trying to calculate Power from Voltage x Current by
putting a current sensing resistor of 0.1 Ohm in series with the
speaker under test, would affect the measurements too much?


** Wrong.

Power = V x I only for resistive loads.

The actual dissipation can be found by measuring the power leaving the test amplifier - and that requires a wide band wattmeter.


How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil?


** Hot as it can be without risk of sudden failure.



Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure
the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output
level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you
could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still
survived) in the calculation.


** Some makers might do that - but the speaker must survive a couple of hours
at the rated figure and all examples sold be able to pass the same test.

Is there any point to you meanderings?


Yes, to learn from people who only think they
know everything already!







.... Phil



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On 2/8/2017 5:30 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:



How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out
of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL
Control 12SR?



** The Celestion guitar speaker has higher efficiency in the mid and upper ranges so would sound wrong, plus in that tiny enclosure would have no deep bass - plus way less power handling.

The performance would be ruined compared to the original JBL woofer.


Alright, since you have made the only real suggestion:


http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480


$450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that!

The shipping better be free for that price!

There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent!





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In article , Paul wrote:

The shipping better be free for that price!

There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent!


You mean like getting the OEM driver from JBL? Or maybe you mean like
getting the existing one reconed.

I don't know why you're talking about making all of these horribly makeshift
substitutions when just doing it properly isn't very expensive or difficult.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Paul wrote:



Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear.

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html


From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the
DC resistance in ohms

The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the
LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio
range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in
the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are
250 Hz or 400 Hz.

Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with
current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in
the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound."


So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive
reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing
frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored?


** Nope - it ignores nothing.

Read what you just quoted, the MINIMUM lies between two rises in impedance at low and high frequencies. How else could it be a minimum ?


But you state in your link that "A "nominal watt" is based purely
on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains
it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions."

So you yourself are saying that it's very rough guestimate!



** You have a reading problem.

Nominal impedance = the figure the maker supplies.

Wattage specifications are calculated based on this number and the voltage applied during testing. So the watts are nominal watts, not real ones.



You
are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately!



** What does my article say ??

I see you have a bad dose of ADHD.




..... Phil


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On 2/8/2017 6:21 PM, Phil Allison wrote:


You
are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately!



** What does my article say ??


Not very much, apparently!



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On 9/02/2017 2:02 p.m., Paul wrote:



http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480


$450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that!

The shipping better be free for that price!

There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent!



Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there.

geoff

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On 2/8/2017 7:08 PM, geoff wrote:
On 9/02/2017 2:02 p.m., Paul wrote:



http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480


$450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that!

The shipping better be free for that price!

There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent!



Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there.


Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only
two screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html


So it's probably not worth re-coning for my purposes.

I'm gonna throw in the Celestion, and see if it's good enough
for me!

I know many of you are in high-end studios, so you are obligated
to give the best advice, cost be damned, but I ain't spending $450
just to get this thing running again!

:/





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Paul wrote:

You
are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately!



** What does my article say ??


Not very much, apparently!



** The explanation is there to be read, I not gonna repeat it over and over for you.

ADHD does no stop you from reading something a few times.

But is sure ****s comprehension up.


....... Phil




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Paul wrote:



Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only
two screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html



** That was a great guitar speaker in its day.

Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !!

Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today.

Ought to be worth re-coning.


..... Phil

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On 2/8/2017 7:53 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:

You
are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately!


** What does my article say ??


Not very much, apparently!



** The explanation is there to be read, I not gonna repeat it over and over for you.

ADHD does no stop you from reading something a few times.

But is sure ****s comprehension up.


Your article doesn't say ****....just measure DC resistance and
add 15%!

VERY primitive, and foolish....

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Paul wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:

You
are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately!


** What does my article say ??


Not very much, apparently!



** The explanation is there to be read, I not gonna repeat it over and over for you.

ADHD does no stop you from reading something a few times.

But is sure ****s comprehension up.


Your article doesn't say ****....just measure DC resistance and
add 15%!




** It also gives all the reasons - you lying pig.


FYI:

The figure of +15% is an international standard for quoting " nominal impedance " - based on a statistical analysis of the DC resistance v minimum AC impedance of many speakers.



..... Phil
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On 2/8/2017 7:47 PM, Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2017 7:08 PM, geoff wrote:
On 9/02/2017 2:02 p.m., Paul wrote:



http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480


$450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that!

The shipping better be free for that price!

There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent!



Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker
there.


Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two
screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html


So it's probably not worth re-coning for my purposes.

I'm gonna throw in the Celestion, and see if it's good enough
for me!

I know many of you are in high-end studios, so you are obligated
to give the best advice, cost be damned, but I ain't spending $450
just to get this thing running again!


Ok, just tried the Celestion out: SM58 into a Mackie 406M into 12SR.

And.....it's pretty good... I've heard worse, and I've heard
better. A bit of distortion somewhere in the midrange, but not
horrible.

I could probably sell it, and just buy a whole new cab.

:/

haha!



  #66   Report Post  
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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 7:48:05 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2017 4:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote:
I wasn't talking to you, dumb****....


And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world.
You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning
on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker.


Try turning on your brain, Mother****er....how's that for a
pronouncement?



Best watch it, their NONE attack dog will be chewing at your leg! :-)

Jack

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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/8/2017 10:20 PM, JackA wrote:
On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 7:48:05 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2017 4:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote:
I wasn't talking to you, dumb****....

And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world.
You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning
on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker.


Try turning on your brain, Mother****er....how's that for a
pronouncement?



Best watch it, their NONE attack dog will be chewing at your leg! :-)


NOT BEFORE I SHOOT IT DEAD!

BRING IT ON, MOTHER-****ERS!

HAHAHHAAAA!!!





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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/8/2017 9:47 PM, Paul wrote:
Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker
there.


Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two
screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


And all the time that it was working, it sounded fine to you? If so, QED


--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
  #69   Report Post  
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:

Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only
two screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html


** That was a great guitar speaker in its day.

Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !!

Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today.

Ought to be worth re-coning.


Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth reconing
and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement driver
for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the cost of
the original driver. It won't be that much.

However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally inappropriate
replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #70   Report Post  
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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 5:23 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 9:47 PM, Paul wrote:
Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker
there.


Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two
screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


And all the time that it was working, it sounded fine to you? If so, QED


This was just given to me for free....now i know why!

:/



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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 7:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:

Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only
two screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html


** That was a great guitar speaker in its day.

Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !!

Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today.

Ought to be worth re-coning.


Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth reconing
and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement driver
for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the cost of
the original driver. It won't be that much.

However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally inappropriate
replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it?


I'll tell you what else!

The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO
crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series!

No wonder the adjustable High frequency rolloff knob at the top
was completely missing! It is labeled, but only the hole for the
pot remains!

Perhaps I could make this sound a bit better with a crossover
more like the original?

I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie
cab.

Sorry for making such an amateur thread! I do appreciate you
professionals' time!

I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking....

  #72   Report Post  
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 12:25 PM, Paul wrote:
This was just given to me for free....now i know why!


But think of all the fun you've had.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
  #73   Report Post  
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 10/02/2017 6:36 AM, Paul wrote:
On 2/9/2017 7:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:

Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only
two screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html


** That was a great guitar speaker in its day.

Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for
CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !!

Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today.

Ought to be worth re-coning.


Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth
reconing
and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement
driver
for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the
cost of
the original driver. It won't be that much.

However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally
inappropriate
replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it?


I'll tell you what else!

The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO
crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series!

No wonder the adjustable High frequency rolloff knob at the top
was completely missing! It is labeled, but only the hole for the
pot remains!


An extra port ?


Perhaps I could make this sound a bit better with a crossover
more like the original?

I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie
cab.

Sorry for making such an amateur thread! I do appreciate you
professionals' time!

I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking....



Maybe start producing this combination as your own product. Clearly it
worked well ....

geoff
  #74   Report Post  
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

In article , Paul wrote:

The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO
crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series!


Well, that likely explains why the woofer failed, if it was an ovexcursion
failure.

I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie
cab.


Please don't sell it. Don't pass your grief on to others. Put it in the
crusher.

I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking....


Call a JBL dealer, they will be able to get them. However, if you ALSO have
to replace the horn, compression driver, and crossover, it's not worth it.
I think it's time for the crusher.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #75   Report Post  
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Neil[_9_] Neil[_9_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 12:36 PM, Paul wrote:
On 2/9/2017 7:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote:

Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice
SRO/12!

Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only
two screws as well! Haha!

Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html


** That was a great guitar speaker in its day.

Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for
CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !!

Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today.

Ought to be worth re-coning.


Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth
reconing
and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement
driver
for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the
cost of
the original driver. It won't be that much.

However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally
inappropriate
replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it?


I'll tell you what else!

The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO
crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series!

No wonder the adjustable High frequency rolloff knob at the top
was completely missing! It is labeled, but only the hole for the
pot remains!

Perhaps I could make this sound a bit better with a crossover
more like the original?

I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie
cab.

Sorry for making such an amateur thread! I do appreciate you
professionals' time!

I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking....

Cut your losses. If you want to have that particular JBL speaker, there
are places to buy used ones on-line. But, by the time you spend the
money purchasing the unit and getting it to you, it might be better to
invest in something that you can actually maintain.

If there's an upside, it might be that you'll be extremely pleased by
the sound of a genuine JBL unit.

--
best regards,

Neil


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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 1:11 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote:

The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO
crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series!


Well, that likely explains why the woofer failed, if it was an ovexcursion
failure.

I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie
cab.


Please don't sell it. Don't pass your grief on to others. Put it in the
crusher.

I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking....


Call a JBL dealer, they will be able to get them. However, if you ALSO have
to replace the horn, compression driver, and crossover, it's not worth it.
I think it's time for the crusher.
--scott


Well, as I mentioned, SM58 into a Mackie 406M into the 12SR with
Celestion and Peavey tweeter horn was NOT HORRIBLY BAD!

It was pretty good sounding. It didn't blow me away, but I've also
heard much worse. There seemed to be a bit of distortion in the
midrange maybe.

Would getting a cheap speaker crossover on Ebay possibly clean
up the sound a bit? Again, it only has a 5.6uF cap in series with
the tweeters.....







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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 11:41 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2017 12:25 PM, Paul wrote:
This was just given to me for free....now i know why!


But think of all the fun you've had.


Very True!


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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 6:22 PM, Paul wrote:
Would getting a cheap speaker crossover on Ebay possibly clean
up the sound a bit? Again, it only has a 5.6uF cap in series with
the tweeters.....


Doubt it. The capacitor protects the tweeter from getting woofed at. The
woofer won't reproduce the tweets, so the only other thing you can add
to it is an inductor to keeps the tweets from wasting some power trying
to drive the woofer, not much to gain there.

To build a more sophisticated crossover, you'd need to know more about
the characteristics of the speakers in order to know where to cross them
over.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 2/9/2017 4:59 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2017 6:22 PM, Paul wrote:
Would getting a cheap speaker crossover on Ebay possibly clean
up the sound a bit? Again, it only has a 5.6uF cap in series with
the tweeters.....


Doubt it. The capacitor protects the tweeter from getting woofed at. The
woofer won't reproduce the tweets, so the only other thing you can add
to it is an inductor to keeps the tweets from wasting some power trying
to drive the woofer, not much to gain there.

To build a more sophisticated crossover, you'd need to know more about
the characteristics of the speakers in order to know where to cross them
over.


Ok, thank you.

I did some more testing using one of my Yamaha HS80Ms, A/B
comparison using the monitor lineout to the Yamaha, main to the 12SR.

Again, this Frankenstein cab is pretty decent sounding. The HS80M
is cleaner, of course, and the JBL cab has a thicker bottom end, but
again, I have heard much worse. Some of the distortion I heard with the
SM58 was due to proximity effects near the microphone, and was also
heard on the HS80M.

I repeated the test with an AT4047, with similar results.

But testing by singing into a mic is a bit difficult, because
you hear your own voice through your bones. So I'm going to do more
tests using Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, using the tape/CD
inputs, to get a more objective test.

Stay tuned...


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?

On 9/02/2017 1:17 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote:
They could then establish a Mean Time before Failure (MTBF), and
say statistically that you could use this speaker with this amp, and
expect an average of this many hours of usage before blowing the speaker.


The only person who has ever even made a stab at that sort of thing is
Wolfgang Klippel. Klippel has done more to establish statistical quality
control of speaker drivers than anyone else ever, I suspect.


Is Dick Pierce still with us?

Trevor.


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