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#41
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/7/2017 8:43 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote: No. Only someone ignorant of how loudspeakers are rated would interpret it as the maximum power rating of the amplifier that's driving it. ** But that is often how speaker makers come up with their inflated numbers. Its the amp power ( usually rms sine wave) that they figure is OK with the speaker under normal programme conditions with little or no clipping. The average power being delivered is then at most 1/4 ( -6dB )of the amp's rated power. At lot hen depends on what the speaker's intended use, ie home hi-fi, live sound, disco or guitar. poorly built and stupidly rated speaker (both cases are not uncommon) driven by a 50 watt amplifier that's clipping badly is more likely to suffer damage than when driven by a 500 watt amplifier that's undistorted when running 100 watts. ** Well, a 50watt sine wave rated amp will deliver at most 100W when heavily clipped - so matching the output of the 500watt model unclipped. The idea of using a LARGER amp to solve speaker burn out problems is a complete nonsense. Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear. http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the DC resistance in ohms The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are 250 Hz or 400 Hz. Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound." So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored? Also from your link: "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions. The usual power handling test done on a high powered woofer is to install it in a large cabinet or perhaps in free air, and feed it with modified pink noise filtered to the 50 Hz to 500 Hz band or possibly the 50 Hz to 5,000 Hz band. (See note below.) The output level from the amp is then adjusted upwards until the voice coil is dangerously hot and left like that for a couple of hours. The RMS voltage being delivered by the amp is measured, the value squared and divided by the nominal impedance to give "max watts". See AES-2 1984 "Speaker Testing" link 2. As a result of this patent absurdity - the actual watts dissipated by the speaker during such testing may well be only 20 to 25% of the published max watts figure." I assume trying to calculate Power from Voltage x Current by putting a current sensing resistor of 0.1 Ohm in series with the speaker under test, would affect the measurements too much? How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil? Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still survived) in the calculation. |
#42
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 7:17 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: If companies made some reasonable guesses as to the temperature where the voice coil insulation and glues start to break down, they could get an idea of the power rating. The AWG, or thickness of the coil wire will make a difference too. Okay, there are two kinds of failures. The first is due to overheating, and the second due to overexcursion. In the case of woofers, you can predict overheating although it's very interesting to watch because the speakers tend to use airflow through the voice coil to cool it. So you can get into a situation where a high power at a low frequency is fine because there's enough excursion and enough air moving through, but a lower power at a higher frequency isn't. Overexcursion issues are totally different, though, and the waveforms that cause them are totally different. Which is really why there's so much slop in all of these, that musical waveforms vary so much between types of music. Perhaps the only accurate way is to get a few examples and perform destructive testing with various sounds though them, at various RMS Wattages, with the understanding that a constant 1kHz sine wave will NOT be the same test as a good variety of REAL music. That's what folks do, and then they put a big safety margin into place before they publish it. How big a safety margin? You'll have to ask the marketing department. They could then establish a Mean Time before Failure (MTBF), and say statistically that you could use this speaker with this amp, and expect an average of this many hours of usage before blowing the speaker. The only person who has ever even made a stab at that sort of thing is Wolfgang Klippel. Klippel has done more to establish statistical quality control of speaker drivers than anyone else ever, I suspect. --scott Assuming speaker power ratings shouldn't be taken seriously: How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL Control 12SR? That would be a rated 80 Watt speaker in a cab that is rated for 200 Watts. I assume the average guitar amp speaker has a different frequency response curve than your average PA speaker? I could be REAL careful about not over-driving it! |
#43
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
In article , Paul wrote:
How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil? That depends entirely on the glue used and whether the voice coil is copper or aluminum. In general the things done to improve power handling also increase moving mass. But voice coil heating effects and how much you can get away with ARE very well-studied. Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still survived) in the calculation. The problem is that speakers will fail much more easily by heating from a pink noise source than from music. However, they will fail much more easily from overexcursion from music than from a pink noise source. So the ability to handle pink noise tells you little about the ability to handle musical waveforms. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
In article , Paul wrote:
Assuming speaker power ratings shouldn't be taken seriously: How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL Control 12SR? Then it would sound totally different. Because the resonant frequency of the driver is different, the efficiency of the driver is different, the Q of the driver resonance is different, and the driver compliance is different. The power rating? Nobody cares about that, that's pretty much irrelevant. That would be a rated 80 Watt speaker in a cab that is rated for 200 Watts. I assume the average guitar amp speaker has a different frequency response curve than your average PA speaker? THAT is an understatement. Also, you'll notice that the rating on that Celestion bears no connection to that of a driver intended for PA applications since the Celestion is intended to handle high duty cycle clipped waveforms. It likely has better power handling than a 200 watt PA driver. But really, power handling is the least of your worries. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
To the original poster: While the argument sbout rating goes on, save yourself some money. Instead of trying to revive that JBL, take the cash and go out and buy yourself a pair of Adam monitors, and enjoy.
Peace, The Other Paul |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 9:32 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: Assuming speaker power ratings shouldn't be taken seriously: How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL Control 12SR? Then it would sound totally different. Because the resonant frequency of the driver is different, the efficiency of the driver is different, the Q of the driver resonance is different, and the driver compliance is different. The power rating? Nobody cares about that, that's pretty much irrelevant. That would be a rated 80 Watt speaker in a cab that is rated for 200 Watts. I assume the average guitar amp speaker has a different frequency response curve than your average PA speaker? THAT is an understatement. Also, you'll notice that the rating on that Celestion bears no connection to that of a driver intended for PA applications since the Celestion is intended to handle high duty cycle clipped waveforms. It likely has better power handling than a 200 watt PA driver. But really, power handling is the least of your worries. --scott I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should just drop it in, and see what happens? I don't have to glue the front grill on until I am happy with the sound of it! |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 5:10 PM, Paul wrote:
I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should just drop it in, and see what happens? By Jove! I think he's got it! -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 3:39 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 5:10 PM, Paul wrote: I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should just drop it in, and see what happens? By Jove! I think he's got it! I wasn't talking to you, dumb****.... |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
In article , Paul wrote:
I would be using this cab mainly for vocals.....maybe I should just drop it in, and see what happens? I told you what would happen: it won't be anything approaching flat. You'd probably do better just to patch the existing one with white glue. But you won't hurt anything by trying it, it just won't sound very good. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote:
I wasn't talking to you, dumb****.... And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world. You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#51
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Paul wrote:
Phil Allison wrote: Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear. http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the DC resistance in ohms The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are 250 Hz or 400 Hz. Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound." So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored? ** Nope - it ignores nothing. Read what you just quoted, the MINIMUM lies between two rises in impedance at low and high frequencies. How else could it be a minimum ? Also from your link: "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions. The usual power handling test done on a high powered woofer is to install it in a large cabinet or perhaps in free air, and feed it with modified pink noise filtered to the 50 Hz to 500 Hz band or possibly the 50 Hz to 5,000 Hz band. (See note below.) The output level from the amp is then adjusted upwards until the voice coil is dangerously hot and left like that for a couple of hours. The RMS voltage being delivered by the amp is measured, the value squared and divided by the nominal impedance to give "max watts". See AES-2 1984 "Speaker Testing" link 2. As a result of this patent absurdity - the actual watts dissipated by the speaker during such testing may well be only 20 to 25% of the published max watts figure." I assume trying to calculate Power from Voltage x Current by putting a current sensing resistor of 0.1 Ohm in series with the speaker under test, would affect the measurements too much? ** Wrong. Power = V x I only for resistive loads. The actual dissipation can be found by measuring the power leaving the test amplifier - and that requires a wide band wattmeter. How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil? ** Hot as it can be without risk of sudden failure. Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still survived) in the calculation. ** Some makers might do that - but the speaker must survive a couple of hours at the rated figure and all examples sold be able to pass the same test. Is there any point to you meanderings? ..... Phil |
#52
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Paul wrote:
How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL Control 12SR? ** The Celestion guitar speaker has higher efficiency in the mid and upper ranges so would sound wrong, plus in that tiny enclosure would have no deep bass - plus way less power handling. The performance would be ruined compared to the original JBL woofer. ..... Phil |
#53
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 4:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote: I wasn't talking to you, dumb****.... And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world. You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker. Try turning on your brain, Mother****er....how's that for a pronouncement? |
#54
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 5:25 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote: Phil Allison wrote: Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear. http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the DC resistance in ohms The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are 250 Hz or 400 Hz. Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound." So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored? ** Nope - it ignores nothing. Read what you just quoted, the MINIMUM lies between two rises in impedance at low and high frequencies. How else could it be a minimum ? But you state in your link that "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions." So you yourself are saying that it's very rough guestimate! You are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately! Also from your link: "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions. The usual power handling test done on a high powered woofer is to install it in a large cabinet or perhaps in free air, and feed it with modified pink noise filtered to the 50 Hz to 500 Hz band or possibly the 50 Hz to 5,000 Hz band. (See note below.) The output level from the amp is then adjusted upwards until the voice coil is dangerously hot and left like that for a couple of hours. The RMS voltage being delivered by the amp is measured, the value squared and divided by the nominal impedance to give "max watts". See AES-2 1984 "Speaker Testing" link 2. As a result of this patent absurdity - the actual watts dissipated by the speaker during such testing may well be only 20 to 25% of the published max watts figure." I assume trying to calculate Power from Voltage x Current by putting a current sensing resistor of 0.1 Ohm in series with the speaker under test, would affect the measurements too much? ** Wrong. Power = V x I only for resistive loads. The actual dissipation can be found by measuring the power leaving the test amplifier - and that requires a wide band wattmeter. How hot is a "dangerously hot" voice coil? ** Hot as it can be without risk of sudden failure. Seems to me the best thing to do would be to measure the RMS voltages, while incrementally increasing the pink noise output level from the amplifier, until the speakers blows. Then you could use the last measured RMS voltage (when the speaker still survived) in the calculation. ** Some makers might do that - but the speaker must survive a couple of hours at the rated figure and all examples sold be able to pass the same test. Is there any point to you meanderings? Yes, to learn from people who only think they know everything already! .... Phil |
#55
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 5:30 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote: How about if I took a Celestion G12P-80 speaker that I took out of a broken Line 6 guitar amplifier, and slapped it into this JBL Control 12SR? ** The Celestion guitar speaker has higher efficiency in the mid and upper ranges so would sound wrong, plus in that tiny enclosure would have no deep bass - plus way less power handling. The performance would be ruined compared to the original JBL woofer. Alright, since you have made the only real suggestion: http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480 $450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that! The shipping better be free for that price! There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent! |
#56
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
In article , Paul wrote:
The shipping better be free for that price! There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent! You mean like getting the OEM driver from JBL? Or maybe you mean like getting the existing one reconed. I don't know why you're talking about making all of these horribly makeshift substitutions when just doing it properly isn't very expensive or difficult. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#57
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Paul wrote:
Section 3.2 of my article on speaker failures makes the case pretty clear. http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html From your link: "Nominal Impedance = R plus 15% - where R is the DC resistance in ohms The "nominal impedance" of a woofer or instrument speaker is the LOWEST value of the REAL impedance that driver exhibits in the audio range and at room temperature. The actual minimum typically occurs in the band between 200 Hz and 500 Hz and the usual test frequencies are 250 Hz or 400 Hz. Being an impedance minimum means that it is a pure resistance too, with current and voltage in phase. The extra 15% comes from energy losses in the suspension, eddy currents the iron magnet structure and radiated sound." So this estimated nominal impedance ignores the inductive reactance of the voice coil, because it assumes lower testing frequencies, where XL=2pifL will be low, and can be ignored? ** Nope - it ignores nothing. Read what you just quoted, the MINIMUM lies between two rises in impedance at low and high frequencies. How else could it be a minimum ? But you state in your link that "A "nominal watt" is based purely on a simple, but absurd, calculation that assumes the speaker maintains it nominal impedance at all frequencies and under all operating conditions." So you yourself are saying that it's very rough guestimate! ** You have a reading problem. Nominal impedance = the figure the maker supplies. Wattage specifications are calculated based on this number and the voltage applied during testing. So the watts are nominal watts, not real ones. You are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately! ** What does my article say ?? I see you have a bad dose of ADHD. ..... Phil |
#58
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 6:21 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
You are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately! ** What does my article say ?? Not very much, apparently! |
#59
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 9/02/2017 2:02 p.m., Paul wrote:
http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480 $450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that! The shipping better be free for that price! There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent! Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there. geoff |
#60
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 7:08 PM, geoff wrote:
On 9/02/2017 2:02 p.m., Paul wrote: http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480 $450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that! The shipping better be free for that price! There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent! Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there. Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html So it's probably not worth re-coning for my purposes. I'm gonna throw in the Celestion, and see if it's good enough for me! I know many of you are in high-end studios, so you are obligated to give the best advice, cost be damned, but I ain't spending $450 just to get this thing running again! :/ |
#61
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Paul wrote:
You are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately! ** What does my article say ?? Not very much, apparently! ** The explanation is there to be read, I not gonna repeat it over and over for you. ADHD does no stop you from reading something a few times. But is sure ****s comprehension up. ....... Phil |
#62
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Paul wrote:
Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html ** That was a great guitar speaker in its day. Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !! Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today. Ought to be worth re-coning. ..... Phil |
#63
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 7:53 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote: You are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately! ** What does my article say ?? Not very much, apparently! ** The explanation is there to be read, I not gonna repeat it over and over for you. ADHD does no stop you from reading something a few times. But is sure ****s comprehension up. Your article doesn't say ****....just measure DC resistance and add 15%! VERY primitive, and foolish.... |
#64
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Paul wrote:
Phil Allison wrote: Paul wrote: You are measuring the DC resistance, and just slapping on 15% indiscriminately! ** What does my article say ?? Not very much, apparently! ** The explanation is there to be read, I not gonna repeat it over and over for you. ADHD does no stop you from reading something a few times. But is sure ****s comprehension up. Your article doesn't say ****....just measure DC resistance and add 15%! ** It also gives all the reasons - you lying pig. FYI: The figure of +15% is an international standard for quoting " nominal impedance " - based on a statistical analysis of the DC resistance v minimum AC impedance of many speakers. ..... Phil |
#65
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 7:47 PM, Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2017 7:08 PM, geoff wrote: On 9/02/2017 2:02 p.m., Paul wrote: http://www.parts-express.com/jbl-220...river--294-480 $450! I could easily buy a new pair of PA cabs for that! The shipping better be free for that price! There's gotta be a cheaper equivalent! Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there. Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html So it's probably not worth re-coning for my purposes. I'm gonna throw in the Celestion, and see if it's good enough for me! I know many of you are in high-end studios, so you are obligated to give the best advice, cost be damned, but I ain't spending $450 just to get this thing running again! Ok, just tried the Celestion out: SM58 into a Mackie 406M into 12SR. And.....it's pretty good... I've heard worse, and I've heard better. A bit of distortion somewhere in the midrange, but not horrible. I could probably sell it, and just buy a whole new cab. :/ haha! |
#66
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 7:48:05 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2017 4:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote: On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote: I wasn't talking to you, dumb****.... And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world. You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker. Try turning on your brain, Mother****er....how's that for a pronouncement? Best watch it, their NONE attack dog will be chewing at your leg! :-) Jack |
#67
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 10:20 PM, JackA wrote:
On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 7:48:05 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: On 2/8/2017 4:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote: On 2/8/2017 5:54 PM, Paul wrote: I wasn't talking to you, dumb****.... And I wasn't talking to you, I was making a pronouncement to the world. You just happened to be there and had your eyes turned on. Try turning on your ears, though, when you install the new speaker. Try turning on your brain, Mother****er....how's that for a pronouncement? Best watch it, their NONE attack dog will be chewing at your leg! :-) NOT BEFORE I SHOOT IT DEAD! BRING IT ON, MOTHER-****ERS! HAHAHHAAAA!!! |
#68
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/8/2017 9:47 PM, Paul wrote:
Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there. Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: And all the time that it was working, it sounded fine to you? If so, QED -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#69
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
Phil Allison wrote:
Paul wrote: Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html ** That was a great guitar speaker in its day. Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !! Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today. Ought to be worth re-coning. Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth reconing and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement driver for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the cost of the original driver. It won't be that much. However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally inappropriate replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#70
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 5:23 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2017 9:47 PM, Paul wrote: Go to eBay, search JBL Control 12SR. Re-cone kits and whole speaker there. Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: And all the time that it was working, it sounded fine to you? If so, QED This was just given to me for free....now i know why! :/ |
#71
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 7:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Phil Allison wrote: Paul wrote: Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html ** That was a great guitar speaker in its day. Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !! Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today. Ought to be worth re-coning. Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth reconing and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement driver for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the cost of the original driver. It won't be that much. However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally inappropriate replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it? I'll tell you what else! The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series! No wonder the adjustable High frequency rolloff knob at the top was completely missing! It is labeled, but only the hole for the pot remains! Perhaps I could make this sound a bit better with a crossover more like the original? I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie cab. Sorry for making such an amateur thread! I do appreciate you professionals' time! I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking.... |
#72
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 12:25 PM, Paul wrote:
This was just given to me for free....now i know why! But think of all the fun you've had. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#73
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 10/02/2017 6:36 AM, Paul wrote:
On 2/9/2017 7:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: Phil Allison wrote: Paul wrote: Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html ** That was a great guitar speaker in its day. Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !! Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today. Ought to be worth re-coning. Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth reconing and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement driver for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the cost of the original driver. It won't be that much. However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally inappropriate replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it? I'll tell you what else! The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series! No wonder the adjustable High frequency rolloff knob at the top was completely missing! It is labeled, but only the hole for the pot remains! An extra port ? Perhaps I could make this sound a bit better with a crossover more like the original? I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie cab. Sorry for making such an amateur thread! I do appreciate you professionals' time! I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking.... Maybe start producing this combination as your own product. Clearly it worked well .... geoff |
#74
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
In article , Paul wrote:
The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series! Well, that likely explains why the woofer failed, if it was an ovexcursion failure. I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie cab. Please don't sell it. Don't pass your grief on to others. Put it in the crusher. I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking.... Call a JBL dealer, they will be able to get them. However, if you ALSO have to replace the horn, compression driver, and crossover, it's not worth it. I think it's time for the crusher. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#75
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 12:36 PM, Paul wrote:
On 2/9/2017 7:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: Phil Allison wrote: Paul wrote: Except I opened it up just today, and....it's an old Electro Voice SRO/12! Definitely not the original speaker! It was hanging on by only two screws as well! Haha! Only rated for 60 Watts continuous sine wave: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43...ce-Sro-12.html ** That was a great guitar speaker in its day. Alnico magnet, 2.5 inch VC, 103dB/watt sensitivity and rated for CONTINUOUS sine wave power of 60 watts rms !! Be rated at 250 watts by most makers today. Ought to be worth re-coning. Indeed, but it doesn't belong in that cabinet. It is likely worth reconing and putting in a guitar cabinet and then buying the proper replacement driver for the Control 12. The original poster STILL hasn't priced out the cost of the original driver. It won't be that much. However, if someone has messed up the thing by putting a totally inappropriate replacement in there, who knows what else is wrong with it? I'll tell you what else! The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series! No wonder the adjustable High frequency rolloff knob at the top was completely missing! It is labeled, but only the hole for the pot remains! Perhaps I could make this sound a bit better with a crossover more like the original? I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie cab. Sorry for making such an amateur thread! I do appreciate you professionals' time! I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking.... Cut your losses. If you want to have that particular JBL speaker, there are places to buy used ones on-line. But, by the time you spend the money purchasing the unit and getting it to you, it might be better to invest in something that you can actually maintain. If there's an upside, it might be that you'll be extremely pleased by the sound of a genuine JBL unit. -- best regards, Neil |
#76
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 1:11 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: The tweeter horn is "A Product of Peavey Electronics," with NO crossover in sight, except a 5.6uF cap in series! Well, that likely explains why the woofer failed, if it was an ovexcursion failure. I'll probably sell this, and get a new or newer JBL or Mackie cab. Please don't sell it. Don't pass your grief on to others. Put it in the crusher. I haven't been able to find an original driver....will keep looking.... Call a JBL dealer, they will be able to get them. However, if you ALSO have to replace the horn, compression driver, and crossover, it's not worth it. I think it's time for the crusher. --scott Well, as I mentioned, SM58 into a Mackie 406M into the 12SR with Celestion and Peavey tweeter horn was NOT HORRIBLY BAD! It was pretty good sounding. It didn't blow me away, but I've also heard much worse. There seemed to be a bit of distortion in the midrange maybe. Would getting a cheap speaker crossover on Ebay possibly clean up the sound a bit? Again, it only has a 5.6uF cap in series with the tweeters..... |
#77
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 11:41 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2017 12:25 PM, Paul wrote: This was just given to me for free....now i know why! But think of all the fun you've had. Very True! |
#78
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 6:22 PM, Paul wrote:
Would getting a cheap speaker crossover on Ebay possibly clean up the sound a bit? Again, it only has a 5.6uF cap in series with the tweeters..... Doubt it. The capacitor protects the tweeter from getting woofed at. The woofer won't reproduce the tweets, so the only other thing you can add to it is an inductor to keeps the tweets from wasting some power trying to drive the woofer, not much to gain there. To build a more sophisticated crossover, you'd need to know more about the characteristics of the speakers in order to know where to cross them over. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#79
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 2/9/2017 4:59 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2017 6:22 PM, Paul wrote: Would getting a cheap speaker crossover on Ebay possibly clean up the sound a bit? Again, it only has a 5.6uF cap in series with the tweeters..... Doubt it. The capacitor protects the tweeter from getting woofed at. The woofer won't reproduce the tweets, so the only other thing you can add to it is an inductor to keeps the tweets from wasting some power trying to drive the woofer, not much to gain there. To build a more sophisticated crossover, you'd need to know more about the characteristics of the speakers in order to know where to cross them over. Ok, thank you. I did some more testing using one of my Yamaha HS80Ms, A/B comparison using the monitor lineout to the Yamaha, main to the 12SR. Again, this Frankenstein cab is pretty decent sounding. The HS80M is cleaner, of course, and the JBL cab has a thicker bottom end, but again, I have heard much worse. Some of the distortion I heard with the SM58 was due to proximity effects near the microphone, and was also heard on the HS80M. I repeated the test with an AT4047, with similar results. But testing by singing into a mic is a bit difficult, because you hear your own voice through your bones. So I'm going to do more tests using Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, using the tape/CD inputs, to get a more objective test. Stay tuned... |
#80
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Recommend a Replacement Speaker for JBL Control 12SR?
On 9/02/2017 1:17 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: They could then establish a Mean Time before Failure (MTBF), and say statistically that you could use this speaker with this amp, and expect an average of this many hours of usage before blowing the speaker. The only person who has ever even made a stab at that sort of thing is Wolfgang Klippel. Klippel has done more to establish statistical quality control of speaker drivers than anyone else ever, I suspect. Is Dick Pierce still with us? Trevor. |
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