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  #41   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Is that all you can say? Untrue? How profound. How insightful.

In 1973, few people in the US had heard of Denon (Nippon Columbia). Their
products were just starting to be sold. I was working at Stansbury's at the
Reisterstown Road Plaza just outside Baltimore.

A rep came in to get us to carry Denon products. They were crappy little compact
systems. I verbally trashed him and sent him packing.

After all, the first Denon products in this country were
mass-market garbage


Untrue.


  #42   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions,
not what his preference should be.


No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's looking to us as "experts" to
give him the absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.

  #43   Report Post  
Andrew M.
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I auditioned Denon, Yamaha, Sony and Marantz before I decided on the
Yamaha receiver for my home surround system. It sounded as good as units
costing 4 times as much. It also has pre amp outs for all channels so I
can bypass the Yamaha power amp. It has a very comprehensive feature set
AND you can disable the DSP processing. Feature for feature I think that
a $400-500 Yamaha is the way to go. Go to a Hi Fi store and audition
them through the same set of speakers.

Andrew M. wrote:

Your DVD player can probably play CD's too so it's not a problem. I have
a Yamaha receiver with 3 optical and one coax input.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?




Not at all.



2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.




Why worry about having two optical players?






  #44   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Willie Sommerdork said:

That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions,
not what his preference should be.


No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's looking to us as "experts" to
give him the absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.


How's that egomania problem coming, Willie?


  #45   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:48:12 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

It was the 303, I believe. Don't remember the alpha prefix.

I remember when it came out ca. 1986 (?). It was the first CD player that got
grudgingly favorable reviews.


That was about the same time that the Denon DCD 1500 came out, with
more than grudgingly favorable reviews.

Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among
anti-digital audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Untrue again.




  #46   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:52:15 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Is that all you can say? Untrue? How profound. How insightful.


Well, you didn't say much more, now did you?

In 1973, few people in the US had heard of Denon (Nippon Columbia). Their
products were just starting to be sold. I was working at Stansbury's at the
Reisterstown Road Plaza just outside Baltimore.

A rep came in to get us to carry Denon products. They were crappy little compact
systems. I verbally trashed him and sent him packing.


And how do you know that they were the only Denon's being offered?
They may have been simply what the rep thought Stansbury's was fit to
sell. I believe, at that time, they also had what most people
considered decent turntables. They had already sold the first PCM
digital recorder to pro studios and had been selling one of the most
renowned cartridges for years, the DL103, which I think is *still*
being marketed today. I have no idea what their product mix was in
1973, but I would be surprised if it didn't include the same sort of
mix (although probably downsized) than it did later on.

BTW, just to show that I'm not totally biased, I'll note that my Denon
receiver is having some switching problems at the moment as well as
seemingly being unable to activate the subwoofer. Seems like the more
"computerized" our receivers (and reliant on digital technology as
well it seems), the more service problems we have to suffer with.

After all, the first Denon products in this country were
mass-market garbage


Untrue.


  #47   Report Post  
Andrew M.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



dave weil wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:48:12 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


It was the 303, I believe. Don't remember the alpha prefix.

I remember when it came out ca. 1986 (?). It was the first CD player that got
grudgingly favorable reviews.



That was about the same time that the Denon DCD 1500 came out, with
more than grudgingly favorable reviews.


Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among
anti-digital audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Untrue again.



Instead of just saying "untrue", why not back it up with some info? I
for one am very interested.

  #48   Report Post  
Sockpuppet Yustabe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Willie Sommerdork said:

That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions,
not what his preference should be.


No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's looking to us as

"experts" to
give him the absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.


How's that egomania problem coming, Willie?



Willie should post on RAAT
rec.audio.absolute.truth




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  #49   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Rob Adelman wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among anti-digital
audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Was that the natural sound series? I had a cassette deck and a tuner
from this series.


Yamaha basically introduced the first sigma-delta converters, using
their "bitstream" chips. Unfortunately they didn't have the idle tone
problems solved at that point and some of the whistles drove people up
the wall, but it was clear that they sounded generally a whole lot better
than the second-generation Philips 16-bit ladder DAC chipsets.

On the other hand, the Yamaha AES/EBU interface chip set is responsible
for a lot of the misconceptions about jitter that permeate the audiophile
community these days. Lots of folks built devices with converters that
didn't reclock and which used the internal PLL on the Yamaha chip to derive
a nasty jitter-laden clock from the input signal. All -kinds- of things would
change the sound on the output, even cable length. Not good.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #50   Report Post  
Leadfoot
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I love my Yamaha RX-V630

"Andrew M." wrote in message
...
I auditioned Denon, Yamaha, Sony and Marantz before I decided on the
Yamaha receiver for my home surround system. It sounded as good as units
costing 4 times as much. It also has pre amp outs for all channels so I
can bypass the Yamaha power amp. It has a very comprehensive feature set
AND you can disable the DSP processing. Feature for feature I think that
a $400-500 Yamaha is the way to go. Go to a Hi Fi store and audition
them through the same set of speakers.

Andrew M. wrote:

Your DVD player can probably play CD's too so it's not a problem. I have
a Yamaha receiver with 3 optical and one coax input.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?



Not at all.



2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears

to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if

that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.



Why worry about having two optical players?










  #51   Report Post  
Jason Wong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Okay everyone, I thought I might put an end to this "heated" debate by
saying that I bought the Denon AVR-1603 yesterday. My choice was
relatively simple; unfortunately I wasn't able to sample both at the
same time, because they were being sold by separate dealers. But the
dealer selling the Denon was able to give me $100 trade-in for my
Pioneer dolby digital (non pro-logic II, non DTS), so I got the Denon
for $400 CAN. I got the dealer to showcase the receiver with the same
Paradigm Titan fronts that I currently own, and a CC-170 centre which
I also eventually bought! Unfortunately the Yamaha dealer didn't have
Paradigm speakers and their store and wouldn't offer me a tradein, so
I never even got to test the unit out. In the end I think I got a
steal because the 1603 was already marked down significantly because
they were the last two units in the store. They said once they were
gone, they'd get teh 1604s in which would sell back at regular price
of around $650.

So far I'm quite happy with the Denon. Finally listening to the DTS
surround tracks on my DVDs makes a world of a difference.
Unfortunately the numbers on the remote don't work in VCR mode, which
is a shame because I use my VCR like a cable box to extend the limited
channel range on my old TV. Oh well, I guess that means I'll have to
upgrade my TV soon!

Thanks for all the "opinions" strewn about in this thread. They
were.... insightful. ;-)

-- Jason
  #52   Report Post  
hawke
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

No offense, but blanket statements like that are just plain bad advice.

I understand you may have had some bad listening experiences with Yamaha 25
years ago, but the company has changed its product line just a little bit
since then. I'm a fan of free speech, and you can continue saying whatever
you like. But to write off an entire company is something that everyone here
should take with a grain of salt - a very small grain.

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching, it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.

I can also say the same for the Denon 5803.

As for your price point. Give them both a listen if you can, and see if you
like to listen to DSP when you watch movies. If you do, then the Yamaha will
have an edge. If you tastes are for mostly music, the Denon may sound better
to you.

- Clint DeBoer
CD Media Website Design & Marketing
www.cdmedia.com

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.



  #53   Report Post  
hawke
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Uh huh... Check out this positive Yamaha RX-Z1 review

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...haRXZ1-p1.html

AH is one of the more popular [sans e-commerce] home theater review
websites. While it's not a magazine, according to Alexa.com it gets more
traffic than Sterophile.com and it doesn't have a magazine to market itself.

Your 25 year old pre-DVD experience notwithstanding, I have never heard of
Yamaha having a poor reputation, and we talk every week with reps from
Denon, Onkyo, Integra Research, Tannoy, Sherbourn and Marantz to name a
few...

A quick glance at any of the online audiophile forums will also confirm
this. No one dogs Yamaha except the elitists who listen to tube amps and buy
$5000 speaker wire so their 30 year-old LPs sound "fruity".

- Clint DeBoer
CD Media Website Design & Marketing
www.cdmedia.com

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


Why?


Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever

gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and

Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I

reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha.



  #54   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

A rep came in to get us to carry Denon products. They were crappy
little compact systems. I verbally trashed him and sent him packing.


And how do you know that they were the only Denon's being offered?
They may have been simply what the rep thought Stansbury's was fit to
sell. I believe, at that time, they also had what most people
considered decent turntables. They had already sold the first PCM
digital recorder to pro studios and had been selling one of the most
renowned cartridges for years, the DL103, which I think is *still*
being marketed today. I have no idea what their product mix was in
1973, but I would be surprised if it didn't include the same sort of
mix (although probably downsized) than it did later on.


First of all, I don't believe Denon was selling professional PCM recorders to
anyone, anywhere in 1973 (TICBW). And although their turntables and pickups
might were no doubt popular in Japan, they were not then available in the US.

By the way, I didn't much care for the 103, because (like many pickups from many
companies) it has that broad "upper-midrange dip" that slightly deadens the
sound. Otherwise, I like MCs a lot.

Regardless...

This question is easily resolved without further argument. When did Denon start
exporting their products to the US? When were the first Denon audiophile
products reviewed in American audiophile magazines? I don't think it was before
1975 or 1976. Anyone know for sure?

Just to clarify a point... I did not state or mean to imply that, in 1973, Denon
made _only_ crap. They certainly didn't.

  #55   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Willie Sommerdork said:

That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions,
not what his preference should be.


No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's looking to us as "experts"

to
give him the absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.


How's that egomania problem coming, Willie?


You're the one who thinks it's a problem.



  #56   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Willie Sommerdork said:

First of all, I don't believe Denon was selling professional PCM recorders to
anyone, anywhere in 1973 (TICBW).


"1971: LEF Denon demonstrates 18-bit PCM stereo recording using a
helical-scan video recorder."
http://www.lovesphere.org/mosr/timetable.shtml

"1972: Developed the world's first PCM digital recorder for regular
studio use, thus launching the digital audio revolution. Commenced
sales of PCM records."
http://www.usa.denon.com/info/history.asp


I think you need to go verbally trash another sales rep.


  #57   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Willie Sommerdork said:

How's that egomania problem coming, Willie?


You're the one who thinks it's a problem.


Oh, you *like* being known as a stuck-up asshole. Fine with me.


  #58   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:49:57 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

A rep came in to get us to carry Denon products. They were crappy
little compact systems. I verbally trashed him and sent him packing.


And how do you know that they were the only Denon's being offered?
They may have been simply what the rep thought Stansbury's was fit to
sell. I believe, at that time, they also had what most people
considered decent turntables. They had already sold the first PCM
digital recorder to pro studios and had been selling one of the most
renowned cartridges for years, the DL103, which I think is *still*
being marketed today. I have no idea what their product mix was in
1973, but I would be surprised if it didn't include the same sort of
mix (although probably downsized) than it did later on.


First of all, I don't believe Denon was selling professional PCM recorders to
anyone, anywhere in 1973 (TICBW).


Sure they were.

"1972 Developed the world's first PCM digital recorder for regular
studio use, thus launching the digital audio revolution. Commenced
sales of PCM records".

From their history site.

And although their turntables and pickups
might were no doubt popular in Japan, they were not then available in the US.


AFAIK, their pickups *were* available here prior to 1973.

By the way, I didn't much care for the 103, because (like many pickups from many
companies) it has that broad "upper-midrange dip" that slightly deadens the
sound. Otherwise, I like MCs a lot.


Fine. Noted. Irrelevant, but noted nontheless.

Regardless...

This question is easily resolved without further argument. When did Denon start
exporting their products to the US? When were the first Denon audiophile
products reviewed in American audiophile magazines? I don't think it was before
1975 or 1976. Anyone know for sure?


I couldn't tell you for sure. According to their history site, they
started making hi-fi gear in 1971.

Basically, you related a story based on your own limited knowledge. It
might very well have been true, but you have no way of knowing for
sure. In any case, they have offered a wide range of products over the
years, with them mostly being known for their higher end products. It
was only later that they seemed to make breakthroughs in lower end
stuff.

Just to clarify a point... I did not state or mean to imply that, in 1973, Denon
made _only_ crap. They certainly didn't.


I understood what you said and what you meant. That's why I responded
the way that I did. You haven't offered any backing except to say that
the rep offered you some mini-systems. As a former Denon rep, I know
that I tailored my presentation to the sort of products that I thought
matched the venue - I *never* offered *everything* to *everyone*. That
could have certainly happened in your case as well. hell, Denon now
sells dedicated products in Sears for god's sake (same receivers,
different product numbers). Sears only gets a couple of items
themselves.
  #59   Report Post  
Robert L. Bass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Don't even THINK about buying anything
Yamaha. Get the Denon.


Rubbish.
If you want "opinion", listen to this poster.
If you want helpful advice, listen to everyone else.


Hmm. I only offer opinions. For the most part they're educated opinions
but they are still opinions. That said, in my opinion the gentleman is
wrong. I've owned and installed Denon and Yamaha equipment and I find
Yamaha to be superior. My Yamaha RXV3000 is, for the money, among the best
around.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================


  #60   Report Post  
Robert L. Bass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

That is still quite because the guy is asking for
opinions, not what his preference should be.


No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's
looking to us as "experts" to give him the
absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.


That's why I hate being called an expert on anything. There are very few
absolute truths (other than Jesus being Lord). When it comes to what is
best I can only say that I've listened to this or that product and found it
pleasing for thus and such reasons. Audio is so subjective that there can
be no absolute best product.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================




  #61   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I understood what you said and what you meant. That's why I responded
the way that I did. You haven't offered any backing except to say that
the rep offered you some mini-systems. As a former Denon rep, I know
that I tailored my presentation to the sort of products that I thought
matched the venue - I *never* offered *everything* to *everyone*. That
could have certainly happened in your case as well. hell, Denon now
sells dedicated products in Sears for god's sake (same receivers,
different product numbers). Sears only gets a couple of items
themselves.


Thanks for the information and corrections.

Stansbury was a photo/hi-fi chain in Baltimore. We sold "good" audio
equipment -- Crown, Infinity, Bose (sorry about that), Shure, AR, KLH, etc.
There was no place in our store for the sort of junk the rep offered. He had
obviously not done his homework.

  #62   Report Post  
Andrew M.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

There are NO absolute truths.

Robert L. Bass wrote:
That is still quite because the guy is asking for
opinions, not what his preference should be.


No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's
looking to us as "experts" to give him the
absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.



That's why I hate being called an expert on anything. There are very few
absolute truths (other than Jesus being Lord). When it comes to what is
best I can only say that I've listened to this or that product and found it
pleasing for thus and such reasons. Audio is so subjective that there can
be no absolute best product.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================



  #63   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:26:46 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I understood what you said and what you meant. That's why I responded
the way that I did. You haven't offered any backing except to say that
the rep offered you some mini-systems. As a former Denon rep, I know
that I tailored my presentation to the sort of products that I thought
matched the venue - I *never* offered *everything* to *everyone*. That
could have certainly happened in your case as well. hell, Denon now
sells dedicated products in Sears for god's sake (same receivers,
different product numbers). Sears only gets a couple of items
themselves.


Thanks for the information and corrections.

Stansbury was a photo/hi-fi chain in Baltimore. We sold "good" audio
equipment -- Crown, Infinity, Bose (sorry about that), Shure, AR, KLH, etc.
There was no place in our store for the sort of junk the rep offered. He had
obviously not done his homework.


Apparently not.

However, note that I'm not saying that you are wrong in your statement
that that's all that Denon was offering, just that you are wrong in
assuming it, if you catch my drift. You could be correct, but I can't
find anything from that period that refers to the products that were
being imported. Denon certainly has *never* imported even *half* of
their line. A good portion stays in Japan, especially the *very* high
dollar stuff.

I'm merely speaking based on my knowledge of the Denon product mix
from the 80s on, *and* knowing the culture of the company. For a long
time during the late 80s, they shied away from lower end products, at
least in terms of their marketing push. They've *always* hung their
hat on the "higher end" market and have stayed away from the sort of
wide product mix that even Yamaha has covered.
  #64   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Robert L. Bass said:

There are very few absolute truths (other than Jesus being Lord).


puke

Don't you have any common decency? Keep that garbage out of
newsgroups where regular people participate.


  #65   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"Marc Phillips" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck said:

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and reviewed

for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people in

the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with me.


In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what

I'm
talking about.


Please...we don't need another Ferstler.


Comparing Sommerwerck to Ferstler shows exactly how shallow and ignorant you
are, Phillips.




  #66   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Robert L. Bass said:

There are very few absolute truths (other than Jesus being Lord).


puke

Don't you have any common decency? Keep that garbage out of
newsgroups where regular people participate.


For the benefit of newbies, let me point out that Middius and his supporters
like Phillips, Weil, and Phillips think that the pedophile fantasies he's
posted on RAO on many occasions are good examples *decent* writing.


  #67   Report Post  
JBorg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

William Sommerwerck wrote:
I said




Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!



That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions,
not what his preference should be.




No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy.


That is still quite "quite".

He's telling us that he is undecided which to buy between Denon and
Yamaha because he hasn't been able to compare the two yet as they are
sold by separate dealers where he's from.


He's looking to us as "experts" to give him the absolute truth so he
can buy the "right" product.


Now that is really quite "quite".

He's looking to us as "audiophiles" to get an audiophile's opinion so he can,
perhaps, set his priorities or needs in drawing his own preferences.

Mind you, do you think that you are an "expert" in giving him the
"Absolute Truth" about his prefernces and what would sound good to him?
  #68   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

However, note that I'm not saying that you are wrong in your statement
that that's all that Denon was offering, just that you are wrong in
assuming it, if you catch my drift. You could be correct, but I can't
find anything from that period that refers to the products that were
being imported. Denon certainly has *never* imported even *half* of
their line. A good portion stays in Japan, especially the *very* high
dollar stuff.


I'm merely speaking based on my knowledge of the Denon product mix
from the 80s on, *and* knowing the culture of the company. For a long
time during the late 80s, they shied away from lower end products, at
least in terms of their marketing push. They've *always* hung their
hat on the "higher end" market and have stayed away from the sort of
wide product mix that even Yamaha has covered.


Agreed on every point.

I don't remember "good" Denon stuff until the mid and late '70s. A search of
Audio and other hi-fi mags of that era would resolve the question, but I don't
have them at hand.

  #69   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I apologize for mis-remembering what I read.

The question could have been a bit more "specific," but it was NOT a vague
"which is best" question, which I detest. Sorry about that.

I should point out, however, that it's unlikely anyone in this group has had
direct experience with inexpensive AV receivers. Opinions are more likely to be
based on general impressions of Denon and Yamaha, or experiences with _other_
Denon and Yamaha products.


I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both
for the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!


  #70   Report Post  
Espen Braathen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"hawke" wrote in message
...

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a

certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching,

it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.


The Z9 is FINALLY going to be a worthy contender since they now have adopted
THX.


Espen B





  #71   Report Post  
Rob Adelman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

geeez guys, it's just a receiver for crying out loud..


  #72   Report Post  
Leadfoot
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"Jason Wong" wrote in message
om...
Okay everyone, I thought I might put an end to this "heated" debate by
saying that I bought the Denon AVR-1603 yesterday. My choice was
relatively simple; unfortunately I wasn't able to sample both at the
same time, because they were being sold by separate dealers. But the
dealer selling the Denon was able to give me $100 trade-in for my
Pioneer dolby digital (non pro-logic II, non DTS), so I got the Denon
for $400 CAN. I got the dealer to showcase the receiver with the same
Paradigm Titan fronts that I currently own, and a CC-170 centre which
I also eventually bought! Unfortunately the Yamaha dealer didn't have
Paradigm speakers and their store and wouldn't offer me a tradein, so
I never even got to test the unit out. In the end I think I got a
steal because the 1603 was already marked down significantly because
they were the last two units in the store. They said once they were
gone, they'd get teh 1604s in which would sell back at regular price
of around $650.

So far I'm quite happy with the Denon. Finally listening to the DTS
surround tracks on my DVDs makes a world of a difference.
Unfortunately the numbers on the remote don't work in VCR mode, which
is a shame because I use my VCR like a cable box to extend the limited
channel range on my old TV. Oh well, I guess that means I'll have to
upgrade my TV soon!

Thanks for all the "opinions" strewn about in this thread. They
were.... insightful. ;-)


But useless in making your decision



-- Jason



  #73   Report Post  
The Mad Doctor
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:39:44 +0200, "Espen Braathen"
wrote:


"hawke" wrote in message
m...

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a

certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching,

it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.


The Z9 is FINALLY going to be a worthy contender since they now have adopted
THX.


THX is no guarantee of worthiness, but is often a guarantee of a
licensing fee to increase the cost of a piece of equipment.

the Z9 is certainly a nice looking unit, and would be equally nice
without the THX stamp on the front

Grant Kinsley MD


Espen B



  #74   Report Post  
Marc Phillips
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck said:

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and reviewed

for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people in

the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with me.


In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what

I'm
talking about.


Please...we don't need another Ferstler.


Comparing Sommerwerck to Ferstler shows exactly how shallow and ignorant you
are, Phillips.


Not bothering to explain why shows how completely idiotic you are, Krueger.

Boon




  #75   Report Post  
JBorg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

William Sommerwerck wrote:



I apologize for mis-remembering what I read.


... Sorry about that.













You're excused.


  #76   Report Post  
Marc Phillips
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message
...
Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck said:

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and

reviewed
for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people

in
the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with

me.

In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know

what
I'm
talking about.

Please...we don't need another Ferstler.

Comparing Sommerwerck to Ferstler shows exactly how shallow and ignorant

you
are, Phillips.


Not bothering to explain why shows how completely idiotic you are,

Krueger.

For RAO regulars with at least normal intelligence, all that is required is
a quick mental comparison of Sommerwerk's qualifications and Ferstler's.


Bull****. Now you're just stalling because you can't explain what you mean.


Given that you've just admitted to subnormal intelligence Phillips, what can
I do to help you with solving this simple problem that is obviously vexing
you?


More nonsense. What a pussy.

Just be accountable for what you say, that's all.

Boon



  #77   Report Post  
Robert L. Bass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

There are NO absolute truths.

I used to think that was true, too. Then one day I met Someone who changed
my point of view.


  #78   Report Post  
Jason Wong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

"Leadfoot" wrote in message news:S1pcb.1582$hp5.655@fed1read04...

But useless in making your decision


Oh absolutely! I mean comeon guys, who CARES what Denon did in the
1970s!!!! Does that all matter, especially considering my original
post asked for opinions over one Denon model vs a Yamaha one? I
hardly think Denons rep back in the "late 70s and early 80s" has
anything to do with the AVR-1603. I don't know how a simple question
from a first-time poster could have ballooned into one hell of a large
thread, but it seems like some of you guys need to find a better
outlet to vent your argumentative and petty nature than wasting space
in the newsgroups. Save yourselves the time typing, you'll thank me
later when you avoid getting carpal tunnel syndrome.
  #79   Report Post  
Robert L. Bass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Oh absolutely! I mean comeon guys, who CARES
what Denon did in the 1970s!!!! Does that all matter,
especially considering my original post asked for
opinions over one Denon model vs a Yamaha one?


Welcome to USENET. :^)


  #80   Report Post  
Leadfoot
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"Jason Wong" wrote in message
om...
"Leadfoot" wrote in message

news:S1pcb.1582$hp5.655@fed1read04...

But useless in making your decision


Oh absolutely! I mean comeon guys, who CARES what Denon did in the
1970s!!!! Does that all matter, especially considering my original
post asked for opinions over one Denon model vs a Yamaha one? I
hardly think Denons rep back in the "late 70s and early 80s" has
anything to do with the AVR-1603. I don't know how a simple question
from a first-time poster could have ballooned into one hell of a large
thread, but it seems like some of you guys need to find a better
outlet to vent your argumentative and petty nature than wasting space
in the newsgroups. Save yourselves the time typing, you'll thank me
later when you avoid getting carpal tunnel syndrome.


Take 1

This audiophile says Denons have better base and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course


Take 2

I'm not an audiophile, per se, but from what I've read, heard and
experienced, George is spot on about Denons producing a better bass sound
and Yamaha being the better sound processor. At that price range, you
should go for the Yamaha because it sounds like you'd probably have
lower-end speakers that won't handle bass too well anyhow, so might as well
go for the better overall sound.

Take 3

I have a Yamaha 5550, and love it to bits. It's my first system, and I was
working to a budget (no sub) but it's great for the money.

Having quickly looked at the Denon specs (and obviously exhibting bias
here), if it bothers you, neither amp has true 6.1 outputs, but while the
Denon doesn't appear to have any 6.1 capability, the 5550 can handle 6.1
inputs by converting them to 5.1 and using a 'virtual' 6th speaker (which
basically means output from the two rear surrounds). It's not ideal, but it
does work surprisingly well

My DVD player only had coaxial output, and after being initially concerned,
I found this isn't something to worry about at all. Yes it has coaxial
input, but not for the default DVD channel. I think the default coaxial
input is CD. However, it's *very* easy to reconfigure the input labels in
the menu system so that the DVD signal is read from the coaxial input. The
manual tells you how to do it.

The remote is good, though how compatible you can make it with your other
equipment will depend upon the make of equipment. It works brilliantly with
my Sony DVD, but not at all with my, ahem, Schneider TV.

Matrix 6.1, changing inputs, and remote configuration are all in the manual.

Take 4

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?


It translates into no difference.

Take 5

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?


Not at all.


2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.


Why worry about having two optical players?

Take 6

I auditioned Denon, Yamaha, Sony and Marantz before I decided on the
Yamaha receiver for my home surround system. It sounded as good as units
costing 4 times as much. It also has pre amp outs for all channels so I
can bypass the Yamaha power amp. It has a very comprehensive feature set
AND you can disable the DSP processing. Feature for feature I think that
a $400-500 Yamaha is the way to go. Go to a Hi Fi store and audition
them through the same set of speakers.

Take 7

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon

Note: this isn't an opinion supported by anything the author wanted to add

Take 8

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever
gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and
Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I
reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha

Take 9

Wow, talk about praising with faint damns.

Of the two units named, the original poster should buy the one
which has the most features he wants. Since he specifically mentioned
that he's interested in Pro Logic II, one thing to check into is
the configurability of the Pro Logic II mode. It's not price-correlated.
I have a Yammy 5540 and a Harmon Kardon AVR520; the latter cost
several hundred more than the former, and has more features and power, but
happens to be *less* configurable in DPL II made than the Yammy. The Yammies
allow you to adjust 'panorama' and a few other
user-configurable features of DPL II , whereas the H-K has
a 'fixed' DPL II config. Don't know about the Denon

Take 10

Hmm. I only offer opinions. For the most part they're educated opinions
but they are still opinions. That said, in my opinion the gentleman is
wrong. I've owned and installed Denon and Yamaha equipment and I find
Yamaha to be superior. My Yamaha RXV3000 is, for the money, among the best
around.


Take 11

No offense, but blanket statements like that are just plain bad advice.

I understand you may have had some bad listening experiences with Yamaha 25
years ago, but the company has changed its product line just a little bit
since then. I'm a fan of free speech, and you can continue saying whatever
you like. But to write off an entire company is something that everyone here
should take with a grain of salt - a very small grain.

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching, it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.

I can also say the same for the Denon 5803.

As for your price point. Give them both a listen if you can, and see if you
like to listen to DSP when you watch movies. If you do, then the Yamaha will
have an edge. If you tastes are for mostly music, the Denon may sound better
to you.

end of takes



After weeding out the chaff you had 11 good takes on your question which
seemed to be in the Yamaha's favor slightly. However your decision was made
based on this statement.

"Unfortunately the Yamaha dealer didn't have Paradigm speakers and their
store and wouldn't offer me a tradein, so I never even got to test the unit
out."

It appears you made your decision primarily on price and (maybe) the Yamaha
dealers lack of foresight in having demo speakers that matched your own.

As it is I have a Ymaha RX-V630 I'm very happy with. I didn't weigh on this
topic because I haven't played with a denon receiver.

Denon was in the running when I decided to upgrade I just found they were
just a little too expensive vs the yamaha I was comparing them too










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