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  #161   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


You know it's funny buut I don't know anyone who has actively investigated

even
this situation. What I mean it seem to me that the most common "sound" of
amplifiers driven into overload may not be the "clipping" but the action

of
overload protection circuitry or the behavior of loudspeakers driven into
excess distortion.

Just fishing here and I wonder what others may have discovered in this

regard.


That may be the case, Tom. But the whole point of the thread was not really
what causes the sound differences, because we all hear them, just that when
operating linearly thay all sound the same.


Paul Vina





  #163   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


You know it's funny buut I don't know anyone who has actively investigated

even
this situation. What I mean it seem to me that the most common "sound" of
amplifiers driven into overload may not be the "clipping" but the action

of
overload protection circuitry or the behavior of loudspeakers driven into
excess distortion.

Just fishing here and I wonder what others may have discovered in this

regard.

Shouldn't be much different from clipping your preamp signal.


  #165   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

No way, man! Clipping blows speakers!

Too much power blows speakers. Technically, especially woofers where

impedance
rises quickly at higher frequencies, it doesn't matter if the incoming

signal
is "clipped" or not.

Too much power for too long damages woofers. It is true that sustained

clipping
raises the average power level delivered and can cause failure but unless

the
amplifier has enough basic energy capability clipping may have little

impact of
failure. For example a 5000 watt Crown Macro-Tech has enough capability to
eventually fry an expensive 15-inch woofer even using a clean signal while

a
Bryston 2B (100 x 2 watts in to 4-ohms) driven into hard clipping for a

long
period may not even cause the speaker to blink.

So the clipping and correlated under-powering conventional wisdom needs to

be
considered with understanding.


Tom, I think you may be right!




  #166   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I know everyone is talking about subs...but....
Isn't clipping bad for tweeters in a passive crossover arrangement?


It can be, in that more power content is delivered to the tweeters due to
the generation of harmonics and, more importantly, compression of the
effective dynamic range of the signal. Note that the underlying theme here
is overpowering.


  #167   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

Agree with the notion of what? I totally agree that one amp can sound cherry
and another can sound like ass (right Paul?). Like I said 100 posts ago, I
don't know if it's because of xovers or any other processing that the amp may
have. Like I also stated, I have a PPI amp here that has the same rated power
output for all four channels and yet I can't bridge the amp in to a pair of
woofers, because the xovers are not matched evenly between the front a rear
channels. Now if I can't get the front and rear channels of single amp to
sound the same, why do you find it so hard to believe that two different amps
could sound different. As Eddie stated below IF and If, Well IF money fell
out of the sky I'd be rich and if all amps had the same controls and
processing they might sound the same and I'd be happy with my 4 channel PPI
amp. I don't see any of that happening, do you Mark?


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Its a known fact that the human brain cannot remember differences in
sound sublties for very long at all, so again your brains predjudices
often come into play to color the sound in a way you dont even realize
(but maybe not in this case) ...


The brain ALWAYS "colors" the sound. That's its job. Contrary to popular
belief, the human brain is NOT a sound detector. It's not interested in
revealing everything about the sound. Instead, the human brain's job is to
FILTER the external stimulus and provide the information in a simple manner
so that the brain's limited processing capabilities will allow the human to
extract the information deemed important and process it in a manner
consistent with human function. As such, even though the mechanical
transduction process in the ear contains most of the information that the
loudspeaker provides, the neural representation of the sound is filtered
even at the earliest stages of auditory processing. By the time the neural
signal even reaches the brain, a considerable portion of the sound
information has already been filtered out. This, along with more central
levels of processing, is the basis for finite psychophysical thresholds.
This is why we cannot perceive every aspect of the sound presented to us.
And as you astutely point out in the remainder of your post, being able to
provide real-world measures of quality is dramatically colored by the fact
that we're not oscilloscopes. We're humans.

IF and IF is a HUGE word here, one amp is compared to another amp
at EXACTLY the same amplitude at EXACTLY the same frequencies
with both amps playing EXACTLY the same then of course there
will be absolutely no way to tell the difference even in a good A/B
test.....


You say "of course" here, but many people, including Howdy and Pug do not
agree with this notion.


  #168   Report Post  
Les
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
Agree with the notion of what?


Your reading comprehension skills are actually getting worse! Agree with the
notion that if 2 amps are matched and playing the same signal that they will
sound the same.

I totally agree that one amp can sound cherry
and another can sound like ass (right Paul?). Like I said 100 posts ago, I
don't know if it's because of xovers or any other processing that the amp

may
have.


Exactly, you don't know. Is that why you keep avoiding my questions? I
thought you might not want to make yourself look bad but it appears that you
just don't know.

Like I also stated, I have a PPI amp here that has the same rated power
output for all four channels and yet I can't bridge the amp in to a pair

of
woofers, because the xovers are not matched evenly between the front a

rear
channels.


Making them sound the same should be possible if it is a matter of the same
position on each represents a different frequency. If it is a slope problem
then you have yourself a defective amp. Assuming of course the manufacture
designed them to be the same.

Now if I can't get the front and rear channels of single amp to
sound the same, why do you find it so hard to believe that two different

amps
could sound different.


Because the crossovers do not come into question! You cannot possibly
compare amps with different crossover frequencies and slopes. You would
absolutely be able to tell them apart just because you can hear extra
frequencies.

As Eddie stated below IF and If, Well IF money fell
out of the sky I'd be rich and if all amps had the same controls and
processing they might sound the same and I'd be happy with my 4 channel

PPI
amp. I don't see any of that happening, do you Mark?


Doesn't matter. Eddie is right, you will likely not recreate level matching
etc. in a car, but that is not the point. Howdy I have stated the point so
many times I should have created a hotkey just to paste it, and you either
do not read it or realize it is right and don't acknowledge it.
It is important to understand that how amplifiers work and how they
reproduce sound and how we percieve it. It allows you to realize that SQ
really is not a factor and other stuff is more important. Do you understand
that? Do you agree with that? Quit being a baby and actually answer some
questions.

Les


  #169   Report Post  
Les
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Will_Skillz" Aw, I made poor little
SoundFag angry, lol

I'm not angry, it is actually rather fun to make noobs like you look
foolish, and so easy to do. You should really at least try and make it
interesting and challenging. But alas you noobs just make it so easy.


So, SQ has nothing to do with "feeling"? Wow. So 20 to 30hz notes
aren't supposed to feel like anything huh, lol.


It still is irrelevant to sound quality. The quality of sound changes from
person to person but nonetheless you do not have to feel something for it to
sound good. Though some people do enjoy the added bonus. How much you can
feel something is irrelevant to quality.


SoundFag: Boohoo, after all my precious time of researching Car Audio
some guy still doesn't agree with me. Boohoo. Everything I say is a
fact although I can't prove it, and he still won't agree with me.


I have proved it. Most people even agree with me, or I agree with them,
however you want to look at it.
I have actually provided logical points and facts. You provided nothing but
your idiotic, ill informed opinion.

Boohoo. Dammit, that's it, anyone who doesn't agree with ME "The All
Mighty SoundFag" is a noob or an idiot.


You are a noob and you are an idiot. It has nothing to with whether you
agree with me or not, I really don't care. But you refusal to post any
evidence or logic combined with your obvious lack of any technical knowledge
makes you an idiot. Pretty simple.




Your a joke,lol!
How many times must I say "don't respond to my posts", or "Give it up".
Now, simply put, a person who can't understand those 2 sentences, or
atleast one of them,lol, is the REAL IDIOT. LOL!! Hmmm...SoundFag


I understood them. I chose to not listen to you. Your logic is flawed again.
Just because I do not listen to you telling me not to respond does not make
one an idiot. Besides, it is to much fun making you look like a fool. You
play the role so well, even better than howdy, but not quite as well as ol'
pugsly.


Well since your to much of a big-headed bit(h to understand "don't
respond to my posts", or "Give it up", let me explain it a little
different for people who rode the short bus to school like you.

If your still confused
Here is a very simple 3-step procedure for getting off my di(k. It goes
as follows:

1) Re-open your mouth

2) Remove my ballz from your jawz

3) And slowly step away from my sack

Understand now?

SoundFag you are a joke, you FAG [laughing]




There are 10 homosexual references made by you in just one post. What is
your deal? You seem obsessed with gay people, you should really get some
help. This is a car audio newsgroup not alt.will.is.gay.
And why do you always edit your curse words? Afraid your mommy might catch
you cursing on the internet? Then she might not let you drive to your next
shift at McDonalds. You better be careful, we wouldn't want that to happen.
Will, your just noobie who was made to look like the fool that you are and
now you just have insults. You, or howdy for that matter, have never even
attempted to answer my questions. Why? Because you are an idiot who could
not even begin to answer them. I have seen many a noob just like you come
and go, so you will be just like the others and post for a few weeks, maybe
even a month, and then disappear because you're to stupid to understand the
most basic concepts.

Les


  #170   Report Post  
Les
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


"Paul Vina" wrote in message He was being
facetious, Tom. Howdy was argiung, in a number of threads,
that clipping blows speakers and he just did a 180 saying that clipping
apparently doesn't damage speakers because his are fine.


Don't worry, by next month this argument will come up again and I am sure he
will do another 180 and all of the sudden all amps really do sound the same



Les




  #171   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

In article , "Les" wrote:

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
Agree with the notion of what?


Your reading comprehension skills are actually getting worse! Agree with the
notion that if 2 amps are matched and playing the same signal that they will
sound the same.


I guess that the internal processing of the amp wont color the signal either,
right?



I totally agree that one amp can sound cherry
and another can sound like ass (right Paul?). Like I said 100 posts ago, I
don't know if it's because of xovers or any other processing that the amp

may
have.


Exactly, you don't know. Is that why you keep avoiding my questions? I
thought you might not want to make yourself look bad but it appears that you
just don't know.


Who give a **** about why they sound different, the point is that they do.



Like I also stated, I have a PPI amp here that has the same rated power
output for all four channels and yet I can't bridge the amp in to a pair

of
woofers, because the xovers are not matched evenly between the front a

rear
channels.


Making them sound the same should be possible if it is a matter of the same
position on each represents a different frequency. If it is a slope problem
then you have yourself a defective amp. Assuming of course the manufacture
designed them to be the same.


They are not designed the same, what part of "not matched evenly" don't you
understand? The front xover is not low-pass.



Now if I can't get the front and rear channels of single amp to
sound the same, why do you find it so hard to believe that two different

amps
could sound different.


Because the crossovers do not come into question!


Crossovers do not come into question, now days more then ever.
Xovers are a part of the amp are they not? When buying an amp, the xover is
an extra option or it is built into the amp. How many manufactures offer car
amps without xovers todays? Can you turn off or bypass the xover in your
D-class amp ? How many current amps do you know of where you can by-pass the
xover and all other proccesing ?


You cannot possibly
compare amps with different crossover frequencies and slopes. You would
absolutely be able to tell them apart just because you can hear extra
frequencies.


So in fact now you are saying that my MTX 801D would sound different then your
Memphis Belle 1300D under normal operating conditions. If you recall these
post started by someone testing a few amps in their car and finding that they
all sounded different (do a google search). Well thank you very much and ****
off, I have no further use for you.




As Eddie stated below IF and If, Well IF money fell
out of the sky I'd be rich and if all amps had the same controls and
processing they might sound the same and I'd be happy with my 4 channel

PPI
amp. I don't see any of that happening, do you Mark?


Doesn't matter. Eddie is right, you will likely not recreate level matching
etc. in a car, but that is not the point. Howdy I have stated the point so
many times I should have created a hotkey just to paste it, and you either
do not read it or realize it is right and don't acknowledge it.
It is important to understand that how amplifiers work and how they
reproduce sound and how we percieve it. It allows you to realize that SQ
really is not a factor and other stuff is more important.


SQ is very much a factor, the differences between xovers and slopes and any
other types of features such as bass boost, phase shift and what have you can
and will change the SQ from one amp to another. You have to take into
consideration that these extra features may also limit the flexibility of the
amp, as in the case of my PPI amp. With that said , I am done with you and
your magically equal amplifiers.



Do you understand
that? Do you agree with that? Quit being a baby and actually answer some
questions.

Les


  #172   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article bvaVb.195563$5V2.1074800@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina" wrote:

You know it's funny buut I don't know anyone who has actively investigated

even
this situation. What I mean it seem to me that the most common "sound" of
amplifiers driven into overload may not be the "clipping" but the action

of
overload protection circuitry or the behavior of loudspeakers driven into
excess distortion.

Just fishing here and I wonder what others may have discovered in this

regard.



But yet the Earthquake shredder sounds like ass.


That may be the case, Tom. But the whole point of the thread was not really
what causes the sound differences, because we all hear them, just that when
operating linearly thay all sound the same.


Paul Vina





  #173   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

Your reading comprehension skills are actually getting worse! Agree with
the
notion that if 2 amps are matched and playing the same signal that they

will
sound the same.


I guess that the internal processing of the amp wont color the signal

either,
right?


Howdy, he's stated over and over again that signal processing done by the
amp CAN make them sound different. So why would you ask this question?

I totally agree that one amp can sound cherry
and another can sound like ass (right Paul?). Like I said 100 posts

ago, I
don't know if it's because of xovers or any other processing that the

amp
may
have.


Exactly, you don't know. Is that why you keep avoiding my questions? I
thought you might not want to make yourself look bad but it appears that

you
just don't know.


Who give a **** about why they sound different, the point is that they do.


The distinction is important because it helps people determine what factors
to look for when buying an amp. So all sources of differences should be
identified, so that the differences can be evaluated.

SQ is very much a factor, the differences between xovers and slopes and

any
other types of features such as bass boost, phase shift and what have you

can
and will change the SQ from one amp to another.


We all agree with that. So where is the disagreement? Can we just let this
thread die? It seems like we all agree.


  #174   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Hey peoplez,

Ha! I see you changed your name to Les.

Why do I censor my curse words?

I didn't know they would show up if I spelled them regular. Some places
censor them if you spell them normal.

Man, some people just can't let things go. I tried not posting again in
this thread, but I see you couldn't help but stir it back up again.

I will not continue to argue about this. I will be the adult and step
away from that situation. All it is doing is taking up room on this
thread. WAY TOO MUCH room.

SoundFreak03: ...unless your amplifier is defective.

I think it was defective. It doesn't work anymore after only about 3
weeks of use. That might have caused the sound difference. The defect
may have been affecting the way it sounded. It just stopped working. A
local car audio shop told me all my wiring was fine, my amp was just
bad.

Sounddomain is crediting my card back. So I probably was indeed hearing
a difference in sound, but it was probably due to a defect or
something. I hooked my Digitalis up, and it works.

Question:

So the ONLY difference between, say, a Zapco and a Jensen amp of the
same power is features and build quality?

Lets say they were both 1000wrms amps at 2ohms, powering the same
700wrms sub. Clearly this is within their capabilities. So they would
sound no different, crossovers and everything the same?


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
http://www.RealCarAudio.com
Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186
View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516

  #175   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I have an Orion 2100HCCA that I want to install to run each pair. Right now

I'm not familiar with that amp, so I can't say anything about it one way or the
other. My only point is that it isn't "illogical" to find an amp capable of
running your system at a fair price. If you're in the habit of shopping retail
at stores like Best Buy that always get full MSRP or thereabouts, you'll almost
always get ripped. But I havn't spent anywhere near MSRP for the system I've
got, I got a damn good deal and my amp is more than capable of running my
speakers. And again, if you buy subs capable of taking 1000 watts each, it's
only -logical- to assume that you're going to need to spend more money in order
to adequately power those subs.The Eclipse DA7122 I mentioned earlier makes
1000 watts RMS power into a single channel at 2 OHMS and isn't bank breaking.
It's bigger brother, the DA7232 can make 1000 watts each into two channels at 2
OHMS, and can peak at up to 2000 watts. Both amps have a THD% of 0.007 driving
2 OHM loads, so neither will make anywhere near enough noise for the human ear
to detect.


  #176   Report Post  
Les
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Exactly, you don't know. Is that why you keep avoiding my questions? I
thought you might not want to make yourself look bad but it appears that

you
just don't know.


Who give a **** about why they sound different, the point is that they do.


Because it matters. Noone why and how something happens is important.




Like I also stated, I have a PPI amp here that has the same rated power
output for all four channels and yet I can't bridge the amp in to a

pair
of
woofers, because the xovers are not matched evenly between the front a

rear
channels.


Making them sound the same should be possible if it is a matter of the

same
position on each represents a different frequency. If it is a slope

problem
then you have yourself a defective amp. Assuming of course the

manufacture
designed them to be the same.


They are not designed the same, what part of "not matched evenly" don't

you
understand? The front xover is not low-pass.


Well "not evenly matched" would imply to me that, say, the 80Hz mark on one
crossover is not the same as the 80Hz on the other. You never said that they
were 2 different types of crossovers, low pass and I presume a high pass.




Now if I can't get the front and rear channels of single amp to
sound the same, why do you find it so hard to believe that two

different
amps
could sound different.


Because the crossovers do not come into question!


Crossovers do not come into question, now days more then ever.
Xovers are a part of the amp are they not? When buying an amp, the xover

is
an extra option or it is built into the amp. How many manufactures offer

car
amps without xovers todays? Can you turn off or bypass the xover in your
D-class amp ? How many current amps do you know of where you can by-pass

the
xover and all other proccesing ?


The crossover is one of the features and options and flexibility that I have
been saying is more important than SQ!!!!!!!! There are to many people that
concentrate so heavily on the SQ that they put the type and slope of the
crossover in the back of thier mind and then realize that they don't have
the flexibility that they need. You are even realizing this same problem.


You cannot possibly
compare amps with different crossover frequencies and slopes. You would
absolutely be able to tell them apart just because you can hear extra
frequencies.


So in fact now you are saying that my MTX 801D would sound different then

your
Memphis Belle 1300D under normal operating conditions. If you recall these
post started by someone testing a few amps in their car and finding that

they
all sounded different (do a google search).


And their so called "testing" was not really proof of amps sound the same or
not. If we were to level match them etc. I have no doubt that they would
sound the same. But I really have no use for that amp as it does not have
the flexibility that I require for my setup.


Well thank you very much and ****
off, I have no further use for you.


Awww. Did I hurt your little ego? That's ok go cry to mommy, maybe she can
call her boss at the strip club and stay home with you tonight, you will
probably need a shoulder to cry on.


As Eddie stated below IF and If, Well IF money fell
out of the sky I'd be rich and if all amps had the same controls and
processing they might sound the same and I'd be happy with my 4 channel

PPI
amp. I don't see any of that happening, do you Mark?


Doesn't matter. Eddie is right, you will likely not recreate level

matching
etc. in a car, but that is not the point. Howdy I have stated the point

so
many times I should have created a hotkey just to paste it, and you

either
do not read it or realize it is right and don't acknowledge it.
It is important to understand that how amplifiers work and how they
reproduce sound and how we percieve it. It allows you to realize that SQ
really is not a factor and other stuff is more important.


SQ is very much a factor, the differences between xovers and slopes and

any
other types of features such as bass boost, phase shift and what have you

can
and will change the SQ from one amp to another. You have to take into
consideration that these extra features may also limit the flexibility of

the
amp, as in the case of my PPI amp. With that said , I am done with you and
your magically equal amplifiers.


No magic, just science. Crossovers are features and options of an amp, they
contribute to what frequencies the amp will play. Bass boost is just a
simple EQ, same as adjusting it on your HU. Phase shift is just another
feature of the amp, not a factor of overall SQ. You agree with me on one
thing though, the point that I have been making the entire thread, that you
have to take into consideration the extra features! And that is what you
call them "extra features" as in not inherently part of the amp. I can see
you slowly changing your story on this one.

Les





  #177   Report Post  
Les
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

From: "Will_Skillz"
Ha! I see you changed your name to Les.


That has always been my name, I put it at the end of every post. It is
different today because I am using a different computer and newsreader.



SoundFreak03: ...unless your amplifier is defective.

I think it was defective. It doesn't work anymore after only about 3
weeks of use. That might have caused the sound difference. The defect
may have been affecting the way it sounded. It just stopped working. A
local car audio shop told me all my wiring was fine, my amp was just
bad.

Sounddomain is crediting my card back. So I probably was indeed hearing
a difference in sound, but it was probably due to a defect or
something. I hooked my Digitalis up, and it works.


Well at least SD is giving you your money back, and you had a backup amp.
Once you get used to a sub even going without it for a couple of days seems
like forever.


Question:

So the ONLY difference between, say, a Zapco and a Jensen amp of the
same power is features and build quality?

Lets say they were both 1000wrms amps at 2ohms, powering the same
700wrms sub. Clearly this is within their capabilities. So they would
sound no different, crossovers and everything the same?



If everything is the same, crossover, gain, slopes the yes they would sound
the same. The differences that would come into play then would be things
like reliability, looks, resale value, and price paid. That is the point of
the all amps sound the same. You have so many other things that are far more
important and contribute more to the overall effectiveness of an amp.

Les


  #178   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

How stupid can you be, are their no limits for your stupidity? It took a
while but now you're starting to bug me. I just explained some of the things
that could make two amps sound totally different, and you even agreed but yet
you still don't get it. Tell your mom that I'm not going to sell her crack
anymore. The last time I sold her crack I made her promise not to share it
with you, and here you are all cracked out again, What a dumb crack whore.




In article , "Les"
wrote:

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Exactly, you don't know. Is that why you keep avoiding my questions? I
thought you might not want to make yourself look bad but it appears that

you
just don't know.


Who give a **** about why they sound different, the point is that they do.


Because it matters. Noone why and how something happens is important.




Like I also stated, I have a PPI amp here that has the same rated power
output for all four channels and yet I can't bridge the amp in to a

pair
of
woofers, because the xovers are not matched evenly between the front a
rear
channels.

Making them sound the same should be possible if it is a matter of the

same
position on each represents a different frequency. If it is a slope

problem
then you have yourself a defective amp. Assuming of course the

manufacture
designed them to be the same.


They are not designed the same, what part of "not matched evenly" don't

you
understand? The front xover is not low-pass.


Well "not evenly matched" would imply to me that, say, the 80Hz mark on one
crossover is not the same as the 80Hz on the other. You never said that they
were 2 different types of crossovers, low pass and I presume a high pass.




Now if I can't get the front and rear channels of single amp to
sound the same, why do you find it so hard to believe that two

different
amps
could sound different.

Because the crossovers do not come into question!


Crossovers do not come into question, now days more then ever.
Xovers are a part of the amp are they not? When buying an amp, the xover

is
an extra option or it is built into the amp. How many manufactures offer

car
amps without xovers todays? Can you turn off or bypass the xover in your
D-class amp ? How many current amps do you know of where you can by-pass

the
xover and all other proccesing ?


The crossover is one of the features and options and flexibility that I have
been saying is more important than SQ!!!!!!!! There are to many people that
concentrate so heavily on the SQ that they put the type and slope of the
crossover in the back of thier mind and then realize that they don't have
the flexibility that they need. You are even realizing this same problem.


You cannot possibly
compare amps with different crossover frequencies and slopes. You would
absolutely be able to tell them apart just because you can hear extra
frequencies.


So in fact now you are saying that my MTX 801D would sound different then

your
Memphis Belle 1300D under normal operating conditions. If you recall these
post started by someone testing a few amps in their car and finding that

they
all sounded different (do a google search).


And their so called "testing" was not really proof of amps sound the same or
not. If we were to level match them etc. I have no doubt that they would
sound the same. But I really have no use for that amp as it does not have
the flexibility that I require for my setup.


Well thank you very much and ****
off, I have no further use for you.


Awww. Did I hurt your little ego? That's ok go cry to mommy, maybe she can
call her boss at the strip club and stay home with you tonight, you will
probably need a shoulder to cry on.


As Eddie stated below IF and If, Well IF money fell
out of the sky I'd be rich and if all amps had the same controls and
processing they might sound the same and I'd be happy with my 4 channel
PPI
amp. I don't see any of that happening, do you Mark?

Doesn't matter. Eddie is right, you will likely not recreate level

matching
etc. in a car, but that is not the point. Howdy I have stated the point

so
many times I should have created a hotkey just to paste it, and you

either
do not read it or realize it is right and don't acknowledge it.
It is important to understand that how amplifiers work and how they
reproduce sound and how we percieve it. It allows you to realize that SQ
really is not a factor and other stuff is more important.


SQ is very much a factor, the differences between xovers and slopes and

any
other types of features such as bass boost, phase shift and what have you

can
and will change the SQ from one amp to another. You have to take into
consideration that these extra features may also limit the flexibility of

the
amp, as in the case of my PPI amp. With that said , I am done with you and
your magically equal amplifiers.


No magic, just science. Crossovers are features and options of an amp, they
contribute to what frequencies the amp will play. Bass boost is just a
simple EQ, same as adjusting it on your HU. Phase shift is just another
feature of the amp, not a factor of overall SQ. You agree with me on one
thing though, the point that I have been making the entire thread, that you
have to take into consideration the extra features! And that is what you
call them "extra features" as in not inherently part of the amp. I can see
you slowly changing your story on this one.

Les





  #179   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote:
Your reading comprehension skills are actually getting worse! Agree with

the
notion that if 2 amps are matched and playing the same signal that they

will
sound the same.


I guess that the internal processing of the amp wont color the signal

either,
right?


Howdy, he's stated over and over again that signal processing done by the
amp CAN make them sound different. So why would you ask this question?


He's too dumb and cracked out that from one post to the next he doesn't know
what he's talking about.



I totally agree that one amp can sound cherry
and another can sound like ass (right Paul?). Like I said 100 posts

ago, I
don't know if it's because of xovers or any other processing that the

amp
may
have.

Exactly, you don't know. Is that why you keep avoiding my questions? I
thought you might not want to make yourself look bad but it appears that

you
just don't know.


Who give a **** about why they sound different, the point is that they do.


The distinction is important because it helps people determine what factors
to look for when buying an amp. So all sources of differences should be
identified, so that the differences can be evaluated.

SQ is very much a factor, the differences between xovers and slopes and

any
other types of features such as bass boost, phase shift and what have you

can
and will change the SQ from one amp to another.


We all agree with that. So where is the disagreement? Can we just let this
thread die? It seems like we all agree.


I don't know, what I was saying all along with a few others is that if you
pull one amp out of your system and replace it with another, it can, will or
may sound different then the amp that was removed.



  #180   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Thanx Les.

Shalom. [fro]


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  #181   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


But yet the Earthquake shredder sounds like ass.


Have you seen the freq. response of that thing? It's not linear to begin
with.



Paul Vina




  #182   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

It took a
while but now you're starting to bug me. I just explained some of the things
that could make two amps sound totally different, and you even agreed but yet

you still don't get it.


What don't I get? This is what you fail to understand. SQ of the amp is
unimportant. You need to concentrate on the other things, even some of the
things that you listed. Things like crossovers, EQ circuits, Phase switches,
and then the things like reliability, price, power, customer service, and even
looks are more important. You need to make sure that you have all of those
things that you need/want. I am not sure how you are missing thid basic and
simple point. What criteria do you use for buying an amp?

Les
  #183   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!



wrote:


nousaine write; You know it's funny buut I don't know anyone who has
actively investigated
even
this situation. What I mean it seem to me that the most common "sound" of
amplifiers driven into overload may not be the "clipping" but the action

of
overload protection circuitry or the behavior of loudspeakers driven into
excess distortion.


That may be the case, Tom. But the whole point of the thread was not really
what causes the sound differences, because we all hear them, just that when
operating linearly thay all sound the same.


Paul Vina


Sure but I'm wondering who has actually investigated cause, effect and exactly
what it is that "sounds" different a little more precisely.

I always 'turn it down' when I hear some kind of distortion that seems related
to overload such as woofer bottoming, tinsel lead snap the odor of voice coil
glue softening up and the like.

But some types of distortion have specific characteristics such as the kind
that Klipple calls "suspension" distortion which is a hardening of upper bass
which can be isolated and related to cause (suspension pulling tight, in that
case.)

As far as I know no one has specifically investigated this with amplifiers and
assigned specific types and causal mechanisms. I'm think that some of the
"sound" assigned to amplifiers may actually be related to loudspeaker
distortion, electronic overload protection mechansims and such which make not
be simple clipping of the signal.

The reason I bring this up now is that a few years ago Floyd Toole told me of
an experiment conducted at the Canadian NRC where they tapped a clipped signal
off the speaker terminals being driven a shard as the amplifier could go and
then played that back in an acoustically separated room on a different system
so they could "hear" the clipping more sensitively. His comment was the 6-dB of
clipping didn't sound "all that bad".

Si I'm just wondering who else may have examined the phenomenon more
specifically and whether they had useful information to add.

  #184   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

What differences do you expect to see? Power compression, of course, will
be different between the two cases simply due to the increase in power of
the clipped wave. The high-frequency content of the clipped signal could
be causing breakup. I'm not entirely sure there's a mystery here. Assuming
the loudspeaker is operating linearly, and that the mere difference in
excursion isn't generating a significant increase in distortion content
(possibly not a safe assumption), what other effects would you expect?

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...


wrote:


nousaine write; You know it's funny buut I don't know anyone who has
actively investigated
even
this situation. What I mean it seem to me that the most common "sound"

of
amplifiers driven into overload may not be the "clipping" but the

action
of
overload protection circuitry or the behavior of loudspeakers driven

into
excess distortion.


That may be the case, Tom. But the whole point of the thread was not

really
what causes the sound differences, because we all hear them, just that

when
operating linearly thay all sound the same.


Paul Vina


Sure but I'm wondering who has actually investigated cause, effect and

exactly
what it is that "sounds" different a little more precisely.

I always 'turn it down' when I hear some kind of distortion that seems

related
to overload such as woofer bottoming, tinsel lead snap the odor of voice

coil
glue softening up and the like.

But some types of distortion have specific characteristics such as the

kind
that Klipple calls "suspension" distortion which is a hardening of upper

bass
which can be isolated and related to cause (suspension pulling tight, in

that
case.)

As far as I know no one has specifically investigated this with amplifiers

and
assigned specific types and causal mechanisms. I'm think that some of the
"sound" assigned to amplifiers may actually be related to loudspeaker
distortion, electronic overload protection mechansims and such which make

not
be simple clipping of the signal.

The reason I bring this up now is that a few years ago Floyd Toole told me

of
an experiment conducted at the Canadian NRC where they tapped a clipped

signal
off the speaker terminals being driven a shard as the amplifier could go

and
then played that back in an acoustically separated room on a different

system
so they could "hear" the clipping more sensitively. His comment was the

6-dB of
clipping didn't sound "all that bad".

Si I'm just wondering who else may have examined the phenomenon more
specifically and whether they had useful information to add.



  #185   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Mark Zarella" pam wrote:

What differences do you expect to see? Power compression, of course, will
be different between the two cases simply due to the increase in power of
the clipped wave. The high-frequency content of the clipped signal could
be causing breakup. I'm not entirely sure there's a mystery here. Assuming
the loudspeaker is operating linearly, and that the mere difference in
excursion isn't generating a significant increase in distortion content
(possibly not a safe assumption), what other effects would you expect?


Well the operating conventional wisdom is that nominally competent power
amplifiers working in their linear range will sound the same. I agree. But when
the ampliifers sound "different" I don't mean the differences they suffer from
when they are operating in a linear fashion; bt how do they sound different
from each other.

If amplifiers have the same flaws when driven into overload then they will
still sound the same as each other. I'm just looking for a more specific look
at 'audibility'; what is it?, how is it caused?, what does it sound like? And,
most importantly how does of this vary amp-to-amp?

I realize that if you adequate power for the load at hand this is not an issue.
But that's not too helpful to those with limited resources or a given set of
currently owned equipment.

How does one "know" whether he needs a bigger amplifier or perhaps a better
speaker? The smell of melting voice coil glue tells you something is wrong; but
was that running your amplifier full out for a long time and building up hear
OR is your amplifier just too large for the speaker?

Many popular music recordings are so radically compressed that power
compression and mild minor amp clipping may be hard to detect by ear; so how
does the end-user figure out what to listen for?

How do amplifiers driven into overload actually "sound". A crunching protection
circuit may be obvious; but much of the character of overload, electronically
or electro-mechanically is NOT well known or we wouldn't be having these
discussions and wouldn't burn out speakers (except on purpose.)

I'll start first; a common distortion element on subwoofers is "suspension
distortion" where when the suspension is being pulled tight mid-upper bass
hardens into a "pock-pock". "motor suspension" (where the motor runs of of
travel or has uneven BL) manifests itself as a modulation of mid and upper
range sounds (burbling voice or gargling trumpets). What Klippel calls
inductive distortion sounds much the same as motor distortion. The latter two
types are typically handled with a low pass filter.

So how does a current amplifer driven into 6,10 and 20 dB of clipping sound
different from when it's operating in it's linear range and how might it sound
different from a competing model?



"Nousaine" wrote in message
...


wrote:


nousaine write; You know it's funny buut I don't know anyone who has
actively investigated
even
this situation. What I mean it seem to me that the most common "sound"

of
amplifiers driven into overload may not be the "clipping" but the

action
of
overload protection circuitry or the behavior of loudspeakers driven

into
excess distortion.


That may be the case, Tom. But the whole point of the thread was not

really
what causes the sound differences, because we all hear them, just that

when
operating linearly thay all sound the same.


Paul Vina


Sure but I'm wondering who has actually investigated cause, effect and

exactly
what it is that "sounds" different a little more precisely.

I always 'turn it down' when I hear some kind of distortion that seems

related
to overload such as woofer bottoming, tinsel lead snap the odor of voice

coil
glue softening up and the like.

But some types of distortion have specific characteristics such as the

kind
that Klipple calls "suspension" distortion which is a hardening of upper

bass
which can be isolated and related to cause (suspension pulling tight, in

that
case.)

As far as I know no one has specifically investigated this with amplifiers

and
assigned specific types and causal mechanisms. I'm think that some of the
"sound" assigned to amplifiers may actually be related to loudspeaker
distortion, electronic overload protection mechansims and such which make

not
be simple clipping of the signal.

The reason I bring this up now is that a few years ago Floyd Toole told me

of
an experiment conducted at the Canadian NRC where they tapped a clipped

signal
off the speaker terminals being driven a shard as the amplifier could go

and
then played that back in an acoustically separated room on a different

system
so they could "hear" the clipping more sensitively. His comment was the

6-dB of
clipping didn't sound "all that bad".

Si I'm just wondering who else may have examined the phenomenon more
specifically and whether they had useful information to add.




  #186   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...

Doesn't matter much though. Those butler amps are barely tube amps. If

I'm
not mistaken, they still have solid-state preamps and are too clean to be
distinguished from their SS counterparts. But don't quote me on that.

no you're correct they only have tubes are in the final stage to prevent
microphonics. I think there is a write up in CSR but it's a SS with tube
buffers.


  #187   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
What amp is it and what is the output in rms? Did you buy it new, used or
stolen for $300?


Memphis Belle MC1300D
75 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms. Class AB
600 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms. Class D
Lightly used, in good condition.

All it takes is a bit of research and some searching. BTW the Class D amp

is
powering a single Image Dynamics IDQ10. There is plenty of headroom for a

good
price.

Les

no there is some debate that class D shouldn't be used in SQ systems, but I
don't want to start another thread debate.


  #188   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
If I had four Memphis Belle MC1300D's, I'd still clip them without

damaging my
subs.


No way, man! Clipping blows speakers!

not necessarily look at dB comps they send their amps into clipping.


  #189   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
If I had four Memphis Belle MC1300D's, I'd still clip them without

damaging my
subs.


No way, man! Clipping blows speakers!

forget my post before this. sorry, sarcasm is hard to pick up on the UNet


  #190   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

I have an Orion 2100HCCA that I want to install to run each pair. Right

now
I'm looking for a matching Orion 2100HCCA for a fair price, another

problem is
that this amp as been remodeled 3 or 4 times over the years which makes it
even harder to find a match. I'm half way there.

look at USAmps I'm sure you'll find an amp to your liking. if you want to
go the used route look at a PPI 2350 or MTX 2300.




  #191   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
The customer that walks in without
knowing will just go in and get which one "sounds better" but what they

will
fail to realize is that they could probably have gotten more amp for

less
money!!!!


Yeah if they bought of that was stolen.


Have you been hanging out with your buddy Ghee too much? Try putting down

the
crack pipe for 5 minutes and try again.

what did I do, are you mad at me Les??


  #192   Report Post  
merlinx76
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I know my tests aren't scientific but I remember listening to some hom
audio receivers awhile back.

I was looking at one that was 100W X 2 . It was on sale for $300 dow
from $400. I listened to it to it and I was gonna get it, then, m
friend with me said "try that one over there". A $250 50W x 2 amp
After listening to the same song on the same speakers with the 2 amps
am absolutly certain that the small one sounded better (in the highe
freq's anyway) so that's the one I bought ...at full price.

You guys that argue there is no difference, power is power...How do yo
explain that there was an obvious difference? Can't one amp have a mor
linear frequency responce than another
-
merlinx7
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  #193   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I know my tests aren't scientific but I remember listening to some home
audio receivers awhile back.

I was looking at one that was 100W X 2 . It was on sale for $300 down
from $400. I listened to it to it and I was gonna get it, then, my
friend with me said "try that one over there". A $250 50W x 2 amp.
After listening to the same song on the same speakers with the 2 amps I
am absolutly certain that the small one sounded better (in the higher
freq's anyway) so that's the one I bought ...at full price.

You guys that argue there is no difference, power is power...How do you
explain that there was an obvious difference?


There are a number of reasons, and they've all been outlined in this thread
so I won't rehash them. But in your case, don't be fooled by power RATINGS.
It's one of the tricks (in car audio at least) that more expensive amplifier
marketing departments use to give the impression that their amp is better.
That's why some companies underrate their amplifiers.

Can't one amp have a more
linear frequency responce than another?


They can, but if you test them, you'll find that they don't.


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