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  #1   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than
another? Any help would be great.
  #2   Report Post  
ReEfErMaDnEsS
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

it seems to me it's all about the distortion ratings of the amp as to how
clean it sounds..trust your ears


"Steve Grauman" wrote in message
...
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been

to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo

from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that

amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a

Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I

need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better

than
another? Any help would be great.



  #3   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been
to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo

from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that

amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic".


"Warmth" is often a subjective term attributed to the audible presence of
second harmonics in the signal (this is well-accepted in the literature).
However, I don't know of any modern day solid state car amplifier that has
been tested (or that I have tested) with audible levels of harmonic
distortion when operating in its linear range (except for some rare
instances at milliwatt levels).

"Better detail" is a bit more vague. I suppose it can mean more precise,
but again, distortion levels are too low for that to be the case. If
instead they mean better high frequency response (which often leads to more
"presence"), then I'm not sure how they can come to that conclusion either,
because you won't find any of these amps with a significant departure from
"flat" in the high frequency range. By "significant" I mean it's not
detectable. It can be measured, and in fact can be rather substantial (even
on the order of -3dB or more by the time you're at 20kHz). But it's not
detectable because it's difficult for humans to detect narrowband frequency
response dips (we can actually detect peaks better than dips!) of that
magnitude, at a freq band that we're insensitive to anyway.

"Less dynamic" distinctly refers to the dynamic range of the amplifier. All
of the amplifiers in question have a dynamic range several orders of
magnitude above what's generally considered overkill. In a car environment,
dynamic range is limited by road noise anyway. There's one way to
dramatically limit dynamic range, however, and that's by driving your
amplifier into clipping.

I'm putting a Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I

need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better

than
another? Any help would be great.


Feature set (crossovers, versatile wiring ability, etc), reliability, power
output, number of channels, price, efficiency, size, aesthetics...


  #4   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Feature set (crossovers, versatile wiring ability, etc), reliability, power
output, number of channels, price, efficiency, size, aesthetics...


I'm just looking for an accurate amp that won't color the sound drastically (if
at all). I've got up to about $600 to commit to the amp, but because dealers
can often sell for well below MSRP, it's hard to find an amp based on price
alone. For instance, the Dynaudio set I'm buying has an MSRP of around $1,100,
but I'm paying less than $800 for it.
  #5   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

I'm just looking for an accurate amp that won't color the sound drastically
(if
at all).


As long as you operate that amp within it's linear range that should be no
problem. In other words don't clip it. Todays SS amps are all accurate to
within acceptable standards for human hearing. So any differences that do exist
cannot be picked up on by out ears.
So, you best bet is to use other criteria like power output, number of
channels, reliability, resale value, customer support, orice, looks, etc.


Les


  #6   Report Post  
TheBIessedDead
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to
3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a
Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need
is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than
another? Any help would be great.


I've been giving alot of thought to this lately, as I just installed a Hifonics
amp and I can hear a difference from the Rockford I was temporarily using.
Now, I don't think this is because the Hifonics is "cleaner" or "more dymanic"
amp or anything, my guess is it sounds different simply because the Hifonics
has way more controls. It offers high pass, bandpass, full pass filters... all
adjustable, and personally I think they have alot more to do with the sound
difference from the less controllable Rockford I was using.

Perhaps the salesmen's ears are hearing these supposed differences simply
because certain amps offer better controls/features than others,and that can
contribute to sound differences.

Plus, if the salesmen is comparing a 50x2 amp to a 100x2 amp, and says the
100x2 amp sounds more "blah blah" than the smaller amp, its possible he's just
noticing the power difference.

Nick
  #7   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Steve,

I have to say I've done a complete turnaround on this topic. After
listening to several gurus on this newsgroup, I have to accept the fact that
a watt is a watt and you cannot possibly perceive an SQ difference between
one amp and another unless you push them into clipping.

And if their word isn't enough, then consider a quote from the Feb/Mar issue
of Mobile Entertainment from mega trophy (221 to be exact) winner Scott
Buwalda. He says one of the myths of sound-off competitions is "A watt is a
watt. I doubt most people can hear the difference between amplifiers unless
you push them into clipping anyway."

And as our newsgroup gurus say, the "experts" out there keep perpetuating
this myth...as your visit to 3 different shops clearly illustrates.

Another FUNNY example of this is Leslie Shapiro's review of Zapco's
Reference 1100M mono amplifier in the SAME issue as the quote from Scott
Buwalda: "Zapco's Reference 1100M mono amp will drive your subwoofers to the
limit of their power-handling capability and deliver the clearest of
signals. Oh, and did I mention the top-notch sound quality?"

Anyway, back to your problem. You have $600 to spend on a good amp and
don't want to pay full retail. I suggest you visit
http://www.sounddomain.com and look at the Phoenix Gold Titanium series
amplifiers. I absolutely love them. They're very flexible, have built-in
fans, and have GOBS of power. I have Dynaudio speakers myself and whether
or not you're a believer of "SQ amps", these amps ROCK...either way you look
it. Plus, sounddomain is an authorized Internet dealer and sell MUCH less
than retail shops. I confirmed their authorized status with Phoenix Gold
myself (not heresay).

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been

to
3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo

from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that

amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a
Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I

need
is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better

than
another? Any help would be great.


I've been giving alot of thought to this lately, as I just installed a

Hifonics
amp and I can hear a difference from the Rockford I was temporarily using.
Now, I don't think this is because the Hifonics is "cleaner" or "more

dymanic"
amp or anything, my guess is it sounds different simply because the

Hifonics
has way more controls. It offers high pass, bandpass, full pass

filters... all
adjustable, and personally I think they have alot more to do with the

sound
difference from the less controllable Rockford I was using.

Perhaps the salesmen's ears are hearing these supposed differences simply
because certain amps offer better controls/features than others,and that

can
contribute to sound differences.

Plus, if the salesmen is comparing a 50x2 amp to a 100x2 amp, and says the
100x2 amp sounds more "blah blah" than the smaller amp, its possible he's

just
noticing the power difference.

Nick



  #8   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Another FUNNY example of this is Leslie Shapiro's review of Zapco's
Reference 1100M mono amplifier in the SAME issue as the quote from Scott
Buwalda


I ended up with Dynaduio's System 240 MKII speakers system and a Zapco
refernece series amp making 125x2. Put in the deposit yesterday. =)

Good luck with whatever you decide.


I appreciate it.
  #9   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
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Default Amps, more argument!


I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping.

I went from an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S to a Phoenix Gold Tantrum
1200.1. The difference was night and day.

Same sub, same box, same car, same features, same impedance load
(4ohms). I popped my trunk and listened to the sound of my sub when
powered by the Digitalis, and drums sounded like anything BUT drums.
Recordings with drum hits close together, or with basslines that
fluctuated sounded like TRASH. Everything ran together. While playing a
test tone to adjust my gain properly I could barely tell when it
started distorting, it was that horrible.

On the other hand, when I got my Tantrum amp drums sounded perfect,
even when played close together. And fluctuating basslines were played
perfectly. It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my
sub than my Digitalis.

There was a H U G E difference in SQ between the two, even at low
volume.


--
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  #10   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping.


Did you level match them? Did you do a blind listening test? Probably not. You
are forgetting the effects of pyschoacoustics. Brand recognition goes a long
way in that.
BTW, you would be surprised at just how much clipping people will allow
themselves to listen too before they ever realize it is occuring.

It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my
sub than my Digitalis.


And how do you suppose that happens?
How can an amp have "better control" over another. Look at independent tests
performed by places like carsound.com; look at the graphs. Any differences that
are measured, and there are differences, would be inaudible to the human ear.

Until someone from the "I heard it" or "My experience" camp can actually offer
some proof other than that then thier "claims" are just that.

Les


  #11   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
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Default Amps, more argument!


I don't think you understand me correctly.

I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't
even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like
absolute trash.

But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume
than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference
in SQ.

At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a
sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real
drum hit.

I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms.
No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing,
everything the same.

I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words
like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound
difference.

And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you
said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought
those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other
besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same
sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load,
same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different.
PERIOD.


--
Will_Skillz
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  #12   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

God, look what I started. Sorry.
  #13   Report Post  
Ivan Lopez
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

A couple of questions as I am curious:

When you did your comparison were you running just the subs or were you
playing the system with everything (i.e. components and/or coaxials)?
Are the crossovers on the amps in question defeatable, I don't think they
are?

I noticed that each amp in question uses a different crossover slope (18db
for the PG and 24db for the Ultimate). This in of itself (if they're being
used, which I'm making the assumption they are) will lead to different
perceived results. Overlap or the lack of overlap may be occuring between
the components and the subs. This may be 'causing a 'blurring' of the
basslines/drums. Plopping in one amp with the different slope may have
'cleaned up' the overlap so that your components and subs were better
matched.

I would be inclined to think that some tweaking/adjusting between your
component amp crossover and the Ultimate crossover would help 'clean' that
blurring up.


"Will_Skillz" wrote in message
...

I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping.

I went from an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S to a Phoenix Gold Tantrum
1200.1. The difference was night and day.

Same sub, same box, same car, same features, same impedance load
(4ohms). I popped my trunk and listened to the sound of my sub when
powered by the Digitalis, and drums sounded like anything BUT drums.
Recordings with drum hits close together, or with basslines that
fluctuated sounded like TRASH. Everything ran together. While playing a
test tone to adjust my gain properly I could barely tell when it
started distorting, it was that horrible.

On the other hand, when I got my Tantrum amp drums sounded perfect,
even when played close together. And fluctuating basslines were played
perfectly. It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my
sub than my Digitalis.

There was a H U G E difference in SQ between the two, even at low
volume.


--
Will_Skillz
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  #14   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Salesman and even installers often describe amps and they way
they sound with subjective terms...

Nothin wrong with that!

BUT, its pretty hard to take what they think is warm and compare it
with what a different guy thinks is warm....

Amps DO definatly sound different!!!!

Dont be confused by the all amps sound the same arguement!
Its kinda hard to really get a good grasp on it for alot of folks.

2 amps playing an equal wattage without any stress and
no where near the amps MAX output should sound pretty much
the same (1 watt = 1 watt)

But, when you really push an amp or play it outside its happy range
one amp can sound drasticly different than another amp!!!

These differences WILL OCCUR under normal use!

The one amp sounds the same as another amp is a condition
that will usually only occur under controlled test circumstances!!

NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE!

Everyday use, amps can sound VERY VERY different!!!

As far as what amp to get, my professional opinion would
be to buy a reliable amplifier with as much power as you can afford.

Many brands of popular amps come out of the same factories in
china as many other popular brands which makes alot of the common
amps the same or very similar as many others, but the manufacturers
dont want to tell you which ones are which.. ;-)

Another confusing factor is that the amp brands rate the power
all different ways and some even LIE about the power output
of the amps, so its pretty hard to make a good decision by the
printed specs...

If you have an installer you trust it isnt a bad idea to take his word
for what amps he likes... Or what amps he is using... Installers do
get to see alot of amps while installing them and also if they ever
come back with problems, it shoud help you choose a reliable one.

Good luck
Eddie Runner
teamrocs #001 http://www.teamrocs.com/forums/

Steve Grauman wrote:

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than
another? Any help would be great.


  #15   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Amps DO definatly sound different!!!!

Sure, when you take them outside of thier happy zone.

Dont be confused by the all amps sound the same arguement!
Its kinda hard to really get a good grasp on it for alot of folks.

2 amps playing an equal wattage without any stress and
no where near the amps MAX output should sound pretty much
the same (1 watt = 1 watt)


Right, which is the point of the all amps sound the same argument.

But, when you really push an amp or play it outside its happy range
one amp can sound drasticly different than another amp!!!

These differences WILL OCCUR under normal use!


They can occur under normal everyday use. I personally attempt to buy amps with
enough headroom to play as loud as I would like without clipping, alas it does
not always happen.

The one amp sounds the same as another amp is a condition
that will usually only occur under controlled test circumstances!!

NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE!


Which is good to know what they performed like in test situations. It helps
establish a baseline, and a reference to what is actually there and what we
percieve to be there.

Everyday use, amps can sound VERY VERY different!!!


Only if they are driven to distortion. You make the other stuff equal and they
do sound the same.

As far as what amp to get, my professional opinion would
be to buy a reliable amplifier with as much power as you can afford


Exactly. But those types of things will often get overlooked when people have
to worry about SQ of an amp. My point on the issue the entire time I have been
here is that there are more important things to worry about than SQ. People get
way to hung up on that.

If you have an installer you trust it isnt a bad idea to take his word
for what amps he likes... Or what amps he is using... Installers do
get to see alot of amps while installing them and also if they ever
come back with problems, it shoud help you choose a reliable one.


Right again. Only problem is you have to trust the installer Which nowadays
is not as easy to do. Reliablity is big on my list, as is power, and price.

Les


  #16   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


N A W M A N

How can I be clipping the amp at low volume? Low as in, any less an
the speaker would not move at all. And it still sounded like trash
Notes still ran together

So your saying that if everybody in the world had 12" MTX 8000 subs an
nobodys amp was clipping, everybodys system would be exactly the sam
sound quality wise

I've had about 5 or 6 different amps, and that was the only amp tha
ran notes together. Now how could I notice that if all of them sounde
the same? Even at low volume.

I have "main" songs that I listen to. And know them by heart. The beat
the words, everything. As soon as I hooked my Digitalis up, I instantl
said to myself, that sounds horrible. I had just sold my MTX 1501
about 2 or 3 days before I hooked the Digitalis up. And it sounde
totally different than it sounded with the MTX. And as soon as I too
the Digitalis off and put the Tantrum on, I heard another BI
difference in SQ, in a good way.

All 3 of those are 1500 watt amps, well, the Tantrum is 1429. No hug
difference in power. The way it sounds normally is gross, if it eve
clips, basslines would sound like a sharp fart. Lows with the Digitali
could barely be felt. On the other hand my MTX and Tantrum move m
seats and dangle my my rearview ornament

I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I le
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps

No matter if nobody agrees with me, I know, without clipping
amplifiers can sound different then the next. I've experienced it fo
myself. This topic is crazy :rolleyes

-
Will_Skill
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  #17   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself,
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps.


Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000 challenge for you to
tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have
to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if
you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're
interested.


  #18   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Mark Zarella wrote: "Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000
challenge for you to tell the difference between any two amps of your
choosing. You don't have to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't
tell the difference and if you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info
for you if you're interested."

Aha!!! Well, Will...it appears as if he's called you. Now it's your turn.

Like you, I am skeptical about this whole amp SQ business. However, I have
learned one thing. I know tons more about car audio than all of my friends
put together. In my little "group" I am an obsessed car stereo nerd freak
guru. And the regulars on this newsgroup (yes, Mark included) are to me as
I am to my friends. This concept is just one of those things I'm slowly
digesting. You know? It's almost as if I can taste how good the truth is,
but my mouth still hasn't gotten used to it yet. Give it time. The
industry seems to have brainwashed us all.

My .02.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself,
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps.


Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000 challenge for you

to
tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have
to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if
you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're
interested.




  #19   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

So your saying that if everybody in the world had 12" MTX 8000 subs and
nobodys amp was clipping, everybodys system would be exactly the same
sound quality wise?


No. Car type, box type, crossover points, installation and all of the other
things that factor into SQ would play a role.

I've had about 5 or 6 different amps, and that was the only amp that
ran notes together. Now how could I notice that if all of them sounded
the same? Even at low volume.


Your really stuck on this low volume thing. It does not matter the volume as
long as it is not clipping. Though we often will percieve louder as better.

The way it sounds normally is gross, if it ever
clips, basslines would sound like a sharp fart. Lows with the Digitalis
could barely be felt. On the other hand my MTX and Tantrum move my
seats and dangle my my rearview ornament.


Everything you are saying was likely the result of a volume difference. SQ is
not was moves your seats and dangles ornaments.

I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself,
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps.


I wish you did too because I wouldn't mind having an extra $1000.
No matter if nobody agrees with me, I know, without clipping,
amplifiers can sound different then the next. I've experienced it for
myself. This topic is crazy

Any data I have seen would suggest different. The nature of physics suggests
different. You tell me how amps whose differences, in all ways, are less than
what we can even hear sound different? The factors that would be associated
with notes running together, and tightness are just not factors in modern
amplifier design.
And here is the point of this whole thing. Forget about the SQ of an amplifier.
There are more important things to consider for an amp, and there are factors
that contribute way more to the SQ of your system. Noobs just seem to get hung
up on this and forget about the rest of it, and yes Will you are included in
that.

Les
  #20   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Ah, I give up

One thing though, tell that little man that's doing that bet thing t
test an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 fo
his self before he looses his money. In car

Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is full
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why thes
things happen

You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It o
Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in S
between amps. :

-
Will_Skill
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  #21   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is fully
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why these
things happen.


And your question has been answered before. Several times. You just refuse to
listen, and insist that your right. The only way that the difference was there
was if you had a faulty amp. But even so without test equipment we could not
know, because your "test" is meaningless.


You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It or
Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in SQ
between amps.


You can't. You are just too much of a noob to understand the scientific facts
and principles associated. Either that are you too much of an idiot to
understand them.

Les
  #22   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Ah, I give up.

One thing though, tell that little man that's doing that bet thing to
test an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 for
his self before he looses his money. In car.

Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is fully
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why these
things happen.

You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It or
Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in SQ
between amps.


We can all tell the difference. But it's for different reasons than you've
provided.


  #23   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
http://www.RealCarAudio.com
Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186
View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516

  #24   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a bas-turd
that he is. LOL


In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.


  #25   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Wow. Getting on someone for belittling someone by doing it yourself.
That's funny.



Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a

bas-turd
that he is. LOL


In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.






  #26   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

You like that huh?


In article x%gUb.176786$sv6.934638@attbi_s52, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Wow. Getting on someone for belittling someone by doing it yourself.
That's funny.



Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a

bas-turd
that he is. LOL


In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.




  #27   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a bas-turd
that he is. LOL



Still desperate for anyone to agree with you? You, like Will, have never
provided any sort of proof or logic to support your argument, yet you still
rally around it. It is sad.

Les
  #29   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.



Idiot, in and of itself, is not a derogatory term. It simply means
uneducated. BTW, you ned to start quoting.



Paul Vina




  #30   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.


It is not belittling, it is just posting the obvious.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.


No, only the ones who refuse to realize that they do not know what is going on
and keep arguing against the facts, like howdy and pugsly. And those who will
not answer simple questions that would help them understand and keep the
discussion moving foward. You fit both of those.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.


Well, when you are attempting to argue about the scientific and technical stuff
it is a big deal.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.


So I provide reasoning and show you the way it really is repeatedly and that
makes me childish? I attempted to explain to you that I do not doubt you heard
a difference, but what you attributed it too was wrong.
You still, without any proof or logic, continued to argue. Well, I do not have
time for that so I classified you into the only 2 catergories I saw. You are
the one who chose to see yourself as the idiot.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.


You never brought any information to debate with!!!! I even gave you questions
for you to answer to continue the discussion, but you refused to even
acknowledge them. I have no problem debating with people, but when they have
little knowledge of the topic and no desire to learn about it, then the debate
is impossible. If you want to actually discuss the matter then answer the
questions I have already asked, but once you answer those you will probably see
the flaws in your logic.

Les


  #31   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!



No, only the ones who refuse to realize that they do not know what is going on
and keep arguing against the facts, like howdy and pugsly. And those who will
not answer simple questions that would help them understand and keep the
discussion moving foward. You fit both of those.


What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then being
on noob and that i agree with.



So I provide reasoning and show you the way it really is repeatedly and that
makes me childish?


Only in your own twisted mind.


I attempted to explain to you that I do not doubt you heard
a difference, but what you attributed it too was wrong.
You still, without any proof or logic, continued to argue. Well, I do not have
time for that so I classified you into the only 2 catergories I saw. You are
the one who chose to see yourself as the idiot.


If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?





You never brought any information to debate with!!!! I even gave you questions
for you to answer to continue the discussion, but you refused to even
acknowledge them. I have no problem debating with people, but when they have
little knowledge of the topic and no desire to learn about it, then the debate
is impossible. If you want to actually discuss the matter then answer the
questions I have already asked, but once you answer those you will probably see
the flaws in your logic.

Les

  #32   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then
being
on noob and that i agree with.


How about the fact that a properly working amplifier has insignifigant
differences in it's measurements from another amplifier. How can you hear a
difference that is not there? When all of the data shows that the differences
are below the threshold of our hearing, especially in a car enviroment.
Carsound.com can verify that, as well as measurements that I and others have
taken. I have made that point repeatedly. Yet, you and others continue to avoid
the simple question. If all of the parameters that factor into "SQ" remain
largely the same then how can you hear a difference? Answer that Howdy and
maybe you can have a discussion. Until then you are just a noob, you can call
me one but my posts suggest otherwise, and well, your posts speak volumes about
how confused you really are on virtually any topic.

If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?


Ah yes, I forget that your reading comprehension skills are extremely poor. The
implication is that I do not have the time to post the same thing over and over
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to make your
noobie ass look foolish.

So, Howdy, until you can actually offer something besides "I heard it" then
your point is moot. Bring something to the table and maybe, just maybe, you can
get someone to consider your point. But as long as you have the obvious noobs
on your side you seem to be happy, hey, whatever you need to get you through
the day.

Les
  #33   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


I don't doubt you heard a difference, but what you attribute it to i

wrong

What did I attribute it to

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what'
going on in my car. They're not there.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even a
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just soun
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your littl
website, lol

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially whe
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I thin
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neithe
have the people from the site you keep mentioning

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to mak
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different

Feel free to keep calling me a "noob". Webster "verified" that there i
no such word Moohahaha [sneeky

-
Will_Skill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community
http://www.RealCarAudio.co
Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...nfo&userid=118
View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...?threadid=4551

  #34   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

What did I attribute it to?

You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that, crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of amplifiers, and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of those as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.


You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows". Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les


  #35   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Who are you to say what true SQ really is? SQ is nothing but a preference that
changes from one person to the next?





In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What did I attribute it to?


You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that, crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of amplifiers, and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of those as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.



Since you like me so much that you include me in almost all of your posts, how
about giving up a little head?



You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows". Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les




  #36   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

SQ is the accurate reproduction of sound. Period. How we percieve it may
be different, but that's not what's in question.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

Who are you to say what true SQ really is? SQ is nothing but a preference

that
changes from one person to the next?





In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What did I attribute it to?


You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your

car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those

who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain

structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that,

crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of

amplifiers, and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only

would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you

are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of

those as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.



Since you like me so much that you include me in almost all of your posts,

how
about giving up a little head?



You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't

know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less

credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows".

Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one

of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and

maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les




  #37   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Who are you to say what true SQ really is? SQ is nothing but a preference
that
changes from one person to the next?


I am not. But what he is attributed to "SQ" is very likely something else. I
would not tell someone that something sounds good to them, but I will point out
when someone attributes something to SQ of an amp when it is not.

Les
  #38   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I hate to break it to you soundfreak, but I don't think will is going to
change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters. To him there is a
difference. Don't turn this into a Runner vs. Nousaine post.

"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
What did I attribute it to?


You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your

car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those

who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that, crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of amplifiers,

and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only

would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you

are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of those

as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.


You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't

know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less

credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows".

Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one

of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and

maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les




  #39   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters.


I have to agree that Will's mind will never be changed. Moreover, there's
really almost no point to Les's side of the argument (no matter how true it may
be or that I agree with him!). In order to prove that Les and Mark and the
others are right (which they are!) you'd need to conduct testing under
conditions that simply do not occur in the real world of car audio. Levels do
not get matched, things do not remain constant. Clean power is clean power and
that'll always be true, but the nature of car audio creates an environment
where sound, or at least -perceived- sound often does change from amp to amp.
This isn't an argument about right or wrong anymore, it's an argument over
pointless bull**** between two sides who both refuse to relinquish. I'm sorry I
started the thread, please forgive me.
  #40   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I hate to break it to you soundfreak, but I don't think will is going to
change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters. To him there is a
difference. Don't turn this into a Runner vs. Nousaine post.


I hate to break it to you Luke, but physics doesn't change in Will's car and
Will will likely never actually know anything about car audio. There are 2
points that I have constantly made.
Point one: Drive an amp within its limits and they sound the same, assuming you
have a properly functioning amp.
Point two: There are far more important things to consider when purchasing an
amp.

He percieves a difference and I, and others, pointed out to him that the
difference was not what he attributed it too. But him being a noob he decided
to challenge it without logic or evidence and well, this is what you get. I
gave up on Will as ever being knowledgeable around the 3rd post he made, but
others are still reading this thread and they will see the evidence for
themselves.
Did you even have a point to your post?

Les



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