Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast. They are doing a
season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, in rec.audio.pro
(Don Pearce) wrote:

Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast. They are doing a
season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy

better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then. They'll sort
that dynamic range problem out for you



martin

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:14:54 +0200, martin griffith
wrote:

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy

better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then. They'll sort
that dynamic range problem out for you

If only this were a joke...

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

martin griffith wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, in rec.audio.pro
(Don Pearce) wrote:

Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast.
They are doing
a season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is
the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't
everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy

better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then.
They'll sort
that dynamic range problem out for you

Indeed - they'll fix it just like you fix a dog.

If only this weren't a joke.

Arny Krueger wrote:
martin griffith wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, in rec.audio.pro
(Don Pearce) wrote:

Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast.
They are doing
a season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is
the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't
everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy

better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then.
They'll sort
that dynamic range problem out for you

Indeed - they'll fix it just like you fix a dog.

If only this weren't a joke.




I'm glad you agree with me....

I'd rather listen to a wide dynamic range MP3 then a compressed* to
he** CD.

* compressed = dynamic range compression, not data compression

Mark

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast. They are doing a
season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

Very Nice, Thanks. I really want Beethoven's 5th. I see it is not
longer up at the site. Do you know if it is available anywhere else?

Julian

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:14:54 +0200, martin griffith
wrote:


The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy

better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then. They'll sort
that dynamic range problem out for you

This absolute right and absolute wrong crap drives me crazy. There
just isn't any ABSOLUTE RIGHT about nearly anything in life,
especially audio. Don't most of you studio guys use some compression?
You guys keep criticizing compression in CD mastering and especially
in radio. Fact is 80 - 90% of FM Radio is listened to while driving
and it is difficult to listen to something completely uncompressed
like this symphony in the car. To hear the quiet parts you'd have to
turn up your speakers so loud as to blow your trunk open on the loud
parts.

True there is a lot of BAD mastering going on out there. Most Radio
Engineers know lots about RF but very little about studio audio and
they're the guys setting the compression.

Just about any Bozo with an expensive compressor can all himself a
mastering engineer these days, but that doesn't mean he knows how to
use the equipment. A little compression for many situations is a good
thing.

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

Julian

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:14:54 +0200, martin griffith
wrote:


The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy

better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then. They'll sort
that dynamic range problem out for you

This absolute right and absolute wrong crap drives me crazy. There
just isn't any ABSOLUTE RIGHT about nearly anything in life,
especially audio. Don't most of you studio guys use some compression?
You guys keep criticizing compression in CD mastering and especially
in radio. Fact is 80 - 90% of FM Radio is listened to while driving
and it is difficult to listen to something completely uncompressed
like this symphony in the car. To hear the quiet parts you'd have to
turn up your speakers so loud as to blow your trunk open on the loud
parts.

True there is a lot of BAD mastering going on out there. Most Radio
Engineers know lots about RF but very little about studio audio and
they're the guys setting the compression.

Just about any Bozo with an expensive compressor can all himself a
mastering engineer these days, but that doesn't mean he knows how to
use the equipment. A little compression for many situations is a good
thing.

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

Julian

In the UK context, on DAB, it absolutely makes it right. The listener
has the option to reduce dynamic range on his receiver. What is
compressed can't be uncompressed.

Would you want the waiter to squirt ketchup over your rib eye steak as
he serves it, telling you that he is dong that because some people
might like it? No - the ketchup must stay in the bottle to be used by
you if you really want it.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Julian wrote:

This absolute right and absolute wrong crap drives me crazy. There
just isn't any ABSOLUTE RIGHT about nearly anything in life,
especially audio. Don't most of you studio guys use some compression?
You guys keep criticizing compression in CD mastering and especially
in radio. Fact is 80 - 90% of FM Radio is listened to while driving
and it is difficult to listen to something completely uncompressed
like this symphony in the car. To hear the quiet parts you'd have to
turn up your speakers so loud as to blow your trunk open on the loud
parts.

Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this. You press the button
and it's in, you press it again and it's out, and it's the END USER who
makes the decision.

Likewise the Dolby Digital home theatre stuff now includes a "night mode"
in which the dynamic range is reduced in a predictable way on playback.
You can turn it on, and you can turn it off, depending on your listening
environment.

If you need to compress in order to deal with the listening environment,
that's fine and that's a good use of compression. But it needs to be
done AT the listening environment and set SPECIFICALLY FOR the listening
environment, because if I squash an album to sound good in the car it
won't sound good anywhere else.

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

It's wrong to squash everything just to deal with the problems of some
listeners, because compression cannot be undone. If you need to
compress, do it in playback.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this.

Heck, even the stock system in my Ford Taurus has compression that can be
switched in, although only on the CD player, not the radio.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

Hal Laurent wrote:


Heck, even the stock system in my Ford Taurus has compression that can be
switched in, although only on the CD player, not the radio.

That would make sense. Radio is already pretty compressed.

Julian wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast. They are doing a
season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

Very Nice, Thanks. I really want Beethoven's 5th. I see it is not
longer up at the site. Do you know if it is available anywhere else?

Ask on 'uk.comp.sys.mac'

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:32:07 -0500, Joe Sensor
wrote:

Hal Laurent wrote:


Heck, even the stock system in my Ford Taurus has compression that can be
switched in, although only on the CD player, not the radio.

That would make sense. Radio is already pretty compressed.

Also, the vast majority of CD's are c... oops, sorry, wrong thread.
-----
http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley

On 28 Jun 2005 14:11:55 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Julian wrote:

Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this. You press the button
and it's in, you press it again and it's out, and it's the END USER who
makes the decision.

Most radio listeners don't have these.

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

It's wrong to squash everything just to deal with the problems of some
listeners, because compression cannot be undone. If you need to
compress, do it in playback.

You are absolutely right and there is no technical reason why it
*couldn't* be done this way. I invite you to call your local stations
and tell them how over compressed they are. I don't think you'll be
calling any of my stations however because I under compress as much as
I can.

There are reasons why stations compress:

1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
2) Better signal to noise
3) Better immunity to interference

With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear. If
most people have the devices you talk about reason 1 will disappear
too. I don't think you will like HD radio either however even if it
is not compressed. First of all it has to be limited at least a
little to prevent overload. Secondly, It's going to be mostly 48 or
64 kbps, with a max possible of 96kbps and it is unlikely moststaiosn
will use 96 because they have to give up the data channels to do so.
I auditioned some HD at Las Vegas NAB this year and I was NOT
impressed.

Sigh...

Julian

Julian wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 14:11:55 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Julian wrote:

Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this. You press the button
and it's in, you press it again and it's out, and it's the END USER who
makes the decision.

Most radio listeners don't have these.

Right. THIS is the central problem.

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

It's wrong to squash everything just to deal with the problems of some
listeners, because compression cannot be undone. If you need to
compress, do it in playback.

You are absolutely right and there is no technical reason why it
*couldn't* be done this way. I invite you to call your local stations
and tell them how over compressed they are. I don't think you'll be
calling any of my stations however because I under compress as much as
I can.

Radio stations compress for marketing purposes. They believe that it is
important to be the loudest station on the dial.

Our local NPR affiliate really does use only mild compression, just the
gainriding and mild limiting in the Optimod and they don't hit it very
hard at all. It sounds really quite impressive.

But the issue here isn't broadcasting, the issue under discussion is
actual recordings. There _are_ some good reasons to squash broadcast
signals, especially on AM where the available channel dynamic range is
not so good. But these reasons do not not apply to direct CD release.

In fact, squashing the hell out of CDs can actually be a problem when
it comes time to run those CDs through a broadcast airchain. Bob Orban
has an article on the subject somewhere.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 29 Jun 2005 10:07:44 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Julian wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 14:11:55 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Julian wrote:

Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this. You press the button
and it's in, you press it again and it's out, and it's the END USER who
makes the decision.

Most radio listeners don't have these.

Right. THIS is the central problem.

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

It's wrong to squash everything just to deal with the problems of some
listeners, because compression cannot be undone. If you need to
compress, do it in playback.

You are absolutely right and there is no technical reason why it
*couldn't* be done this way. I invite you to call your local stations
and tell them how over compressed they are. I don't think you'll be
calling any of my stations however because I under compress as much as
I can.

Radio stations compress for marketing purposes. They believe that it is
important to be the loudest station on the dial.

Our local NPR affiliate really does use only mild compression, just the
gainriding and mild limiting in the Optimod and they don't hit it very
hard at all. It sounds really quite impressive.

But the issue here isn't broadcasting, the issue under discussion is
actual recordings. There _are_ some good reasons to squash broadcast
signals, especially on AM where the available channel dynamic range is
not so good. But these reasons do not not apply to direct CD release.

In fact, squashing the hell out of CDs can actually be a problem when
it comes time to run those CDs through a broadcast airchain. Bob Orban
has an article on the subject somewhere.
--scott

Not much to argue with here. I am very impressed how you can make a
station sound reasonably loud but not artificial with one of Orban's
expensive Optimods. And yes, the Optimod can't sound very good if the
CD is already stepped on hard!

Julian

On 6/29/05 1:49 AM, in article ,
"Julian" wrote:


1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
2) Better signal to noise
3) Better immunity to interference

With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear.

Ho HO!
Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 6/29/05 1:49 AM, in article ,
"Julian" wrote:

1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
2) Better signal to noise
3) Better immunity to interference

With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear.

Ho HO!
Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!

I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 6/29/05 2:53 PM, in article ,
"Julian" wrote:


In fact, squashing the hell out of CDs can actually be a problem when
it comes time to run those CDs through a broadcast airchain. Bob Orban
has an article on the subject somewhere.
--scott

Not much to argue with here. I am very impressed how you can make a
station sound reasonably loud but not artificial with one of Orban's
expensive Optimods. And yes, the Optimod can't sound very good if the
CD is already stepped on hard!

No, the point here is that a nastily hypercompressed recording fed through
even a moderately aggressive station audio chain will come out sounding
WORSE than it started (no matter that it started awful!) due to the
artifacts and how it gets handled...

SSJVCmag wrote:


No, the point here is that a nastily hypercompressed recording fed through
even a moderately aggressive station audio chain will come out sounding
WORSE than it started (no matter that it started awful!) due to the
artifacts and how it gets handled...

Not necessarily. If it is already flatlined, the additional processing
may not have than much effect.

Joe Sensor wrote:
SSJVCmag wrote:


No, the point here is that a nastily hypercompressed recording fed through
even a moderately aggressive station audio chain will come out sounding
WORSE than it started (no matter that it started awful!) due to the
artifacts and how it gets handled...

Not necessarily. If it is already flatlined, the additional processing
may not have than much effect.

Not at all! One of the big problems are the phase rotators that most
airchains use, which will really scramble flat-topped waveforms and make
them much nastier-sounding. Again, there's a paper from Bob Orban about
this stuff that is probably on the web somewhere.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 6/29/05 3:34 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 6/29/05 1:49 AM, in article ,
"Julian" wrote:

1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
2) Better signal to noise
3) Better immunity to interference

With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear.

Ho HO!
Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!

I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.

There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!

On 6/29/05 3:59 PM, in article , "Joe Sensor"
wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote:


No, the point here is that a nastily hypercompressed recording fed through
even a moderately aggressive station audio chain will come out sounding
WORSE than it started (no matter that it started awful!) due to the
artifacts and how it gets handled...

Not necessarily. If it is already flatlined, the additional processing
may not have than much effect.

You need to read Orban's stuff... Really.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
wrote:

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

SSJVCmag wrote:
wrote:

I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.

There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!

So, it's just like FM, only more so?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 29 Jun 2005 21:05:28 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

So, it's just like FM, only more so?

Great movie; just keeps getting better with time.
*That* was a script.

Chris Hornbeck
"Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief" -F&S

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:21:02 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

You need to read Orban's stuff... Really.

Will someone please post a link?

On 29 Jun 2005 21:05:28 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!

Not true, it fades to the analog signal.

So, it's just like FM, only more so?

Digital does not break up in multipath situations. no more "picket
fence" effect.

Julian

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:07:26 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

Ho HO!
Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!

My earlier post said I DID hear IBOC in Las Vegas last April.

What makes you think I haven't seen digital TV?

Julian

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:58:47 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
wrote:

Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.

That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

Yes, I can't disagree that in a perfect world it is the right way to
do it. In the real world, "Should have" don't cut it. Things are
done the way they are due to the evolution of the technology. If they
knew back then what we know now, things might not be that way now.
When all cars have local compression that would be a first step toward
correcting. In the mean time, turn off the damn radio if it offends
you.

Julian

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:10:58 GMT, Chris Hornbeck
wrote:

So, it's just like FM, only more so?

Great movie; just keeps getting better with time.
*That* was a script.

But my favorite line is still "I'm shocked. Shocked,
that there is gambling going on here."

"Your winnings, sir" (By the great Marcel Dalio, star
of Jean Renoir's prewar _Grand Illusion_ and _Rules
of the Game_, reduced here to character roles, but
still scene stealing.

Here's looking...

Chris Hornbeck
"Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief" -F&S

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
wrote:


Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
make it right and everything else wrong.


That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

It's all Motorola's fault.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

In article writes:

That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

What would you label the button so as not to confuse the user?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On 30 Jun 2005 07:46:03 -0400, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:


In article writes:

That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

What would you label the button so as not to confuse the user?

Loud/Normal

or perhaps

AGE
Under 30/Over 30

Better still, make it an optionally automatic function based on road
speed - no problem these days.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:45:27 -0700, Julian wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:21:02 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

You need to read Orban's stuff... Really.

Will someone please post a link?

I found a couple of likely pages.

http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/radioprocess.htm
http://www.bext.com/histproc.htm

Don Pearce wrote:

On 30 Jun 2005 07:46:03 -0400, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:


In article
writes:

That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

What would you label the button so as not to confuse the user?

Loud/Normal

or perhaps

AGE
Under 30/Over 30

Better still, make it an optionally automatic function based on road
speed - no problem these days.

Oh heavens! Please not another load of sensors and wiring....

(...having spent half the morning helping a neighbour sort out his car)

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote
in
message
id.invalid
Don Pearce wrote:

On 30 Jun 2005 07:46:03 -0400, (Mike
Rivers) wrote:


In article
writes:

That's why car radios should have a compression
function.
Not why the source should be compressed.

What would you label the button so as not to confuse the
user?

Loud/Normal

or perhaps

AGE
Under 30/Over 30

Better still, make it an optionally automatic function
based
on road speed - no problem these days.

Oh heavens! Please not another load of sensors and
wiring....

(...having spent half the morning helping a neighbour sort
out
his car)

The point is that the sensors and wiring are already there.
Since modern car radios are already on the system bus, its
just a matter of routing some packets.

On 6/29/05 9:05 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote:
wrote:

I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.

There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!

So, it's just like FM, only more so?
Well, Fm starts to get a little noisey, then loses stereo (or stays REAL
noisey) then just gets lost or turns selectivity over to a stronger/local
station signal

Digital just STOPS. Think audio equivalent of those roving sports cams that
lose link with the truck.

On 6/29/05 10:10 PM, in article ,
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote:

On 29 Jun 2005 21:05:28 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

So, it's just like FM, only more so?

Great movie; just keeps getting better with time.
*That* was a script.

Dang... Been too long I remember almost nothing of it... Time to rent!

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Don Pearce wrote:
Better still, make it an optionally automatic function based on road
speed - no problem these days.

Oh heavens! Please not another load of sensors and wiring....

It's already there. My car radio/CD player is also a satellite
navigation system, and the speed info is used for dead reckoning if it
loses its view of the satellites and also to control the volume of the
sound with the vehicle's speed. It's a standard pin assignment on a DIN
radio connector.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827