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"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
...
regurgitates thoroughly debunked propaganda
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None wrote:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
...
regurgitates thoroughly debunked propaganda


ˆš

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On 2/12/15 12:53 PM, None wrote:
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
...
regurgitates thoroughly debunked propaganda


I've always thought Frank's input was solid gold. Watching him go off on
politics here was like watching a Ferrari drive off the pavement to go
off-roading.

--
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Matt Faunce wrote:

On 2/12/15 12:53 PM, None wrote:
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
...
regurgitates thoroughly debunked propaganda


I've always thought Frank's input was solid gold. Watching him go off on
politics here was like watching a Ferrari drive off the pavement to go
off-roading.


ˆš

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(hank alrich) writes:

None wrote:


"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
...
regurgitates thoroughly debunked propaganda


ˆš


Hey, Hank -

For general security purposes, I use a news reader that only supports 7 bit
characters. Your reply came across as a 10 character (or so) control string of some
sort -- what were you attempting to post?

"Debunked propoganda" from "None"? Not sure what that means; my statements have been
from first-hand observation and the changing experience of buying my own medical
insurance since age 19 (which goes back many decades to the indemnity policy days --
long before HMOs, PPOs, and irritating networks).

There are additional observations of what happened to the market place (and costs)
when WA State did its own mini 0-care in the mid 1990s. Up until Utah (my new home
for 2 years now) underwent 0-care, their once robust marketplace cut premiums for
the same policy from the same company by nearly half.

One side note to Trevor - the US had 100% coverage pre 0-care, but most agreed that
delivery via the ER to those on the margin was a terrible way to help them. The
"solution" to that, however, has been unfortunate. The worst is yet to come. Check
out what 0-Care architect Jonathan Gruber proudly said about it.

If interest remains, happy to continue this outside the NG.

Frank

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Frank Stearns wrote:

One side note to Trevor - the US had 100% coverage pre 0-care, but most agreed that
delivery via the ER to those on the margin was a terrible way to help them. The
"solution" to that, however, has been unfortunate. The worst is yet to come. Check
out what 0-Care architect Jonathan Gruber proudly said about it.


Once upon a time, after being injured on set, I was taken to a hospital
emergency room where I was told my insurance was no good and I could
not be treated there. I was bundled up and sent off to the poor people's
hospital (Grady Memorial) to get sutured. I later wound up with a major
postoperative infection and wound up losing a finger. (The infection was
probably made worse by the doctor's refusing to take my phone calls and
his receptionist insisting I wait before coming in.)

Experiences like this tend to sour me on the health care system in this
country, and make me very, very skeptical when people say that we have
100% coverage.

In Canada you get the care you can afford to wait for, in the US you get
the care you can afford to pay for.
--scott

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On 14 Feb 2015 02:59:41 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Frank Stearns wrote:

One side note to Trevor - the US had 100% coverage pre 0-care, but most agreed that
delivery via the ER to those on the margin was a terrible way to help them. The
"solution" to that, however, has been unfortunate. The worst is yet to come. Check
out what 0-Care architect Jonathan Gruber proudly said about it.


Once upon a time, after being injured on set, I was taken to a hospital
emergency room where I was told my insurance was no good and I could
not be treated there. I was bundled up and sent off to the poor people's
hospital (Grady Memorial) to get sutured. I later wound up with a major
postoperative infection and wound up losing a finger. (The infection was
probably made worse by the doctor's refusing to take my phone calls and
his receptionist insisting I wait before coming in.)

Experiences like this tend to sour me on the health care system in this
country, and make me very, very skeptical when people say that we have
100% coverage.

In Canada you get the care you can afford to wait for, in the US you get
the care you can afford to pay for.
--scott


In England I just walk into any hospital and get treated. No questions
are asked and the care is the best. When I fell off my bike and lost
the feeling along one side of my hand I went to A&E (accident and
emergency) and was seen immediately by a man who turned out later to
be one of Europe's leading neurologists. I had a consultation that
lasted almost one and a half hours (it wasn't busy).

I pay for this along with my taxes, and I love it. I also pay for
private medicine through my job so that if I have any elective
surgery, I can get it immediately in a private hospital rather than
joining the queue. This, of course, is an extra, voluntary subsidy to
the National Health System.

Does this make us a bunch of commies?

d
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(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Frank Stearns wrote:

One side note to Trevor - the US had 100% coverage pre 0-care, but most agreed that
delivery via the ER to those on the margin was a terrible way to help them. The
"solution" to that, however, has been unfortunate. The worst is yet to come. Check
out what 0-Care architect Jonathan Gruber proudly said about it.


Once upon a time, after being injured on set, I was taken to a hospital
emergency room where I was told my insurance was no good and I could
not be treated there. I was bundled up and sent off to the poor people's
hospital (Grady Memorial) to get sutured. I later wound up with a major
postoperative infection and wound up losing a finger. (The infection was
probably made worse by the doctor's refusing to take my phone calls and
his receptionist insisting I wait before coming in.)


Experiences like this tend to sour me on the health care system in this
country, and make me very, very skeptical when people say that we have
100% coverage.


In Canada you get the care you can afford to wait for, in the US you get
the care you can afford to pay for.


Scott, that's a horrid experience and I would think be grounds for legal action.

But stupid failures like that are not unique to any health care system. My brother,
who lived under German government healthcare for 20 years, nearly lost an eye in
Germany due to incompentance and endless delays imposed by the system.

In year 14 of his residency as a German tax payer, the system delayed his access to
an eye specialist for two years. When bro finally got that appointment, the
specialist was furious and cursed the system he worked under. If bro had been seen
in a timely manner, much suffering could have been prevented as well as saving the
system some 10,000 Euros in all the worthless repeat visits to the GP. (Turned out
to be a fluke accident where six microscopic metal pieces had blown into his eye
years earlier.)

So who was making these decisions to treat/not treat? Non-medical faceless
bureaucrats within the German system. Now, you had and still have something like
that with insurance bureaucrats here, but generally there were ways around them if
you (or someone for you) could push. And now you've layered on more mountain-high
layers of government regulation.

But now, with 0-care, and the real underlying intent to implode private insurance
and create a single payer system, there will be no appeal, no higher authority, in
these situations.

There are elements of single payer that are good, but on the whole not so much as
many others will tell you who have lived under them. Lots of negative anecdotes,
sorry to say. (And hence, all the folks from around the world coming to the USA
pre-0care for treatment. Many non-residents from Canada and elsewhere could be found
in Seattle and Spokane, WA, waiting rooms.) But that's a lonnnng discussion not
readily accommodated here.

Perhaps my single biggest problem with 0care has been the breathtaking dishonesty:
"You can keep your policy if you like it", "you'll save on average $2500", et al.

And Pelosi's famous statement, "We have to pass to legislation to know what's in
it." Come again? Can't you people read? (I did read through some of the Affordable
Care Act; it was unbelievable in its attempt to obfuscate EVERYTHING.)

Watch the Gruber clips. Chilling. Talk to front-line enrollment agents. SP is
coming, and it's going to be a messy transition that makes the previous 0-care
start-up mess look like a pleasant walk in the park.

Frank
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Neil Gould wrote:

The Affordable Care Act
does nothing to change the fundamental structure, so it can not lead to a
single payer -- i.e. nationalized -- health care process.


"The fundamental structure" spent a lot of money making sure the ACA did
not alter its control of the system.

Single payer. We'll either get that done, or remain hostages of the
medical-insurance industrial complex.

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hank alrich wrote:
Neil Gould wrote:

The Affordable Care Act
does nothing to change the fundamental structure, so it can not lead
to a single payer -- i.e. nationalized -- health care process.


"The fundamental structure" spent a lot of money making sure the ACA
did not alter its control of the system.

Single payer. We'll either get that done, or remain hostages of the
medical-insurance industrial complex.

We don't seem to be on a path to that end, at least not by deliberate
efforts on the part of any current politicians. The collapse of some
"payers" in portions of the country with the result that only one "payer" is
left doesn't qualify, it just creates more "too big to fail" entities.
Apparently, some politicians think that's a good idea.

--
best regards,

Neil





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On 14/02/2015 7:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
In England I just walk into any hospital and get treated. No questions
are asked and the care is the best. When I fell off my bike and lost
the feeling along one side of my hand I went to A&E (accident and
emergency) and was seen immediately by a man who turned out later to
be one of Europe's leading neurologists. I had a consultation that
lasted almost one and a half hours (it wasn't busy).

I pay for this along with my taxes, and I love it. I also pay for
private medicine through my job so that if I have any elective
surgery, I can get it immediately in a private hospital rather than
joining the queue. This, of course, is an extra, voluntary subsidy to
the National Health System.

Does this make us a bunch of commies?


No. it simply makes you more enlightened than most "greed is good"
capitalist countries.

Trevor.


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Trevor wrote:
On 14/02/2015 7:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
In England I just walk into any hospital and get treated. No questions
are asked and the care is the best. When I fell off my bike and lost
the feeling along one side of my hand I went to A&E (accident and
emergency) and was seen immediately by a man who turned out later to
be one of Europe's leading neurologists. I had a consultation that
lasted almost one and a half hours (it wasn't busy).

I pay for this along with my taxes, and I love it. I also pay for
private medicine through my job so that if I have any elective
surgery, I can get it immediately in a private hospital rather than
joining the queue. This, of course, is an extra, voluntary subsidy to
the National Health System.

Does this make us a bunch of commies?


No. it simply makes you more enlightened than most "greed is good"
capitalist countries.

Trevor.



It makes him nothing more than the beneficiary of an accident of
history - at best. Is that "greed", these accidents of history?

I wouldn't defend either system on merit for any sort of bet.

--
Les Cargill
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On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:05:12 -0600, Les Cargill
wrote:

Trevor wrote:
On 14/02/2015 7:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
In England I just walk into any hospital and get treated. No questions
are asked and the care is the best. When I fell off my bike and lost
the feeling along one side of my hand I went to A&E (accident and
emergency) and was seen immediately by a man who turned out later to
be one of Europe's leading neurologists. I had a consultation that
lasted almost one and a half hours (it wasn't busy).

I pay for this along with my taxes, and I love it. I also pay for
private medicine through my job so that if I have any elective
surgery, I can get it immediately in a private hospital rather than
joining the queue. This, of course, is an extra, voluntary subsidy to
the National Health System.

Does this make us a bunch of commies?


No. it simply makes you more enlightened than most "greed is good"
capitalist countries.

Trevor.



It makes him nothing more than the beneficiary of an accident of
history - at best. Is that "greed", these accidents of history?

I wouldn't defend either system on merit for any sort of bet.


Why do you call it an accident? The creation of the National Health
Service was certainly no accident.

And can you explain further your second para? I don't understand that
at all.

d
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On 16/02/2015 4:55 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:05:12 -0600, Les Cargill
wrote:
Trevor wrote:
On 14/02/2015 7:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
In England I just walk into any hospital and get treated. No questions
are asked and the care is the best. When I fell off my bike and lost
the feeling along one side of my hand I went to A&E (accident and
emergency) and was seen immediately by a man who turned out later to
be one of Europe's leading neurologists. I had a consultation that
lasted almost one and a half hours (it wasn't busy).

I pay for this along with my taxes, and I love it. I also pay for
private medicine through my job so that if I have any elective
surgery, I can get it immediately in a private hospital rather than
joining the queue. This, of course, is an extra, voluntary subsidy to
the National Health System.

Does this make us a bunch of commies?

No. it simply makes you more enlightened than most "greed is good"
capitalist countries.


It makes him nothing more than the beneficiary of an accident of
history - at best. Is that "greed", these accidents of history?


Why do you call it an accident? The creation of the National Health
Service was certainly no accident.


Right, in so called democratic countries, people vote for the parties
that either give them services or take them away. Provide services to
all or only a few. And either tax the rich or tax the poor to pay for
them. It is pretty clear which is simply greed and self interest, even
if the greedy don't like to admit it!

Trevor.




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(Don Pearce) wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:05:12 -0600, Les Cargill
wrote:

Trevor wrote:
On 14/02/2015 7:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
In England I just walk into any hospital and get treated. No questions
are asked and the care is the best. When I fell off my bike and lost
the feeling along one side of my hand I went to A&E (accident and
emergency) and was seen immediately by a man who turned out later to
be one of Europe's leading neurologists. I had a consultation that
lasted almost one and a half hours (it wasn't busy).

I pay for this along with my taxes, and I love it. I also pay for
private medicine through my job so that if I have any elective
surgery, I can get it immediately in a private hospital rather than
joining the queue. This, of course, is an extra, voluntary subsidy to
the National Health System.

Does this make us a bunch of commies?

No. it simply makes you more enlightened than most "greed is good"
capitalist countries.

Trevor.



It makes him nothing more than the beneficiary of an accident of
history - at best. Is that "greed", these accidents of history?

I wouldn't defend either system on merit for any sort of bet.


Why do you call it an accident? The creation of the National Health
Service was certainly no accident.


There were two events that conspired to separate how payment for medical
care happened in the US and the UK.


The understanding I have is:
The formation of the NHS would simply not have been possible at any
time other in British history because it's a big step. That was
simply easier in the dishevelment post WWII. While not exactly an
accident, it owes much to circumstance. You also had a big
Labor push after the vote of no confidence against Churchill .

To be fair, there was much more prior consideration of public health
care before the actual formation of the NHS in Britain. There was
the Lloyd George 1911 law, other things. That's more or less
from the general Fabian Socialist tradition.

In the US, Truman ensconced payment for health insurance in pretax
dollars instead of wage increases, because the US was in one of its
harebrained "wage and price control" fits. This is particularly
ludicrous because the pattern post-War is almost certainly
*de*flationary.

And can you explain further your second para? I don't understand that
at all.


The NHS seems to an active source of debate and tweaking.

Health care stubbornly resists classification as either a public or
private good. The French nationalized health care worker education,
which is probably better.

Percent GDP on healthcare in Britain is about 10%. It's some higher in
the US - 18ish percent. But per capita income is (was, anyway ) higher
in the US, and many other cost of living items are much lower here
outside of the really large cities.

And Romneycare on the national level seems to have reduced the rate of
increase of cost. This is fairly vital for the U.S.; Medicare looms
large over our aging population.

There probably is no good system. But at times, the French tradition
of medicine as primarily a public, scientific enterprise seems to make
more sense. I am sure it has troubles, too.

d


--
Les Cargill



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Les Cargill wrote:

There probably is no good system. But at times, the French tradition
of medicine as primarily a public, scientific enterprise seems to make
more sense. I am sure it has troubles, too.


An elderly woman I know visiting Paris fell down some stone steps and
brtoke her arm. She was treated at a hospital, very well in her view,
and sent on her way without being billed anything. She is a US citizen.

Seems quite civilized.

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On 18/02/2015 2:09 p.m., Chuck wrote:

I knew a guy back in the 80s who stepped into traffic on the bridge
in central Inverness. (He forgot for a moment the direction of
traffic flow in the U.K..) He was a mass of broken bones and it was a
miracle he survived. He didn't pay a cent for the months of health
care he received. Imagine what it would have cost if it was a Brit in
the U.S.



.... and he'd have been sued by the vehicle(s) that hit him.

geoff

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