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#41
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The usage of the word audiophile
On Mar 30, 9:24 pm, "bob" wrote:
Then you're probably looking in the wrong place. Try MySpace. I am seeking information from those that are informed about audiophiles but are not "subjective audiophiles". Such people are a significant proportion of the people here but they are not in MySpace. The problem is that such people almost always ignore everything to do with audiophiles. You want to define audiophile? I am happy enough with much of what I know on that topic at least to the point of considering rewriting the article. It is the usage of the word where I recognise my knowledge is lacking and it needs to be there in the first few paragraphs. Out of curiosity, what do you see as wrong with the Wikipedia definition as it stands now? Granted, it's a muddle, but how could it be anything else, given the nature of the topic? It is indeed a muddle but the article also fails to emphasise what is remarkable about audiophiles compared with other enthusiasts for technical equipment like cars and computers and the like. It also says nothing about the history, origins or how the scientifically incorrect beliefs are sustained in the face of knowledge from science, the other audio sectors and, to a fair degree, common sense. |
#42
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The usage of the word audiophile
On 31 Mar 2007 00:25:12 -0700, "honestguvnor"
wrote: It is indeed a muddle but the article also fails to emphasise what is remarkable about audiophiles compared with other enthusiasts for technical equipment like cars and computers and the like. It also says nothing about the history, origins or how the scientifically incorrect beliefs are sustained in the face of knowledge from science, the other audio sectors and, to a fair degree, common sense. It happens in cars and computers to. Plenty of drivers spend as much time polishing their cars as driving them. And there's a small but robust market in such things as magic fuel-economy devices, backed up with bad science. Some computer users decorate their cases with pretty lights and fill their systems with utilities that merely duplicate Windows functions. Then there's the "Macs are friendly" myth (quite distinct from any technical differences between the platforms.) |
#43
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The usage of the word audiophile
On Mar 31, 12:16 pm, Laurence Payne
It happens in cars and computers to. Plenty of drivers spend as much time polishing their cars as driving them. And there's a small but robust market in such things as magic fuel-economy devices, backed up with bad science. Some computer users decorate their cases with pretty lights and fill their systems with utilities that merely duplicate Windows functions. Then there's the "Macs are friendly" myth (quite distinct from any technical differences between the platforms.) Whatever their skewed preferences, enthusiasts in these sectors are interested in the technical performance of the objects of their enthusiasm. They may give excessive weight to measures of performance like their equivalent hi-fi enthusiasts sometimes did in the 70s with 0.001% versus 0.0005% THD specifications. But these are real measures even if they are not particularly relevant to the function of the device. The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. The magic fuel-economy devices are not being promoted by the mainstream auto press which also does not derive much of its income from the advertising of such products. The situation was the same with audiophile products in the 60s and early 70s in that they existed in the small ads but were ignored by the mainstream press and not stocked in the shops in the high street. The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not usually a hobby interest. |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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The usage of the word audiophile
"honestguvnor" wrote in message ps.com... On Mar 31, 12:16 pm, Laurence Payne It happens in cars and computers to. Plenty of drivers spend as much time polishing their cars as driving them. And there's a small but robust market in such things as magic fuel-economy devices, backed up with bad science. Some computer users decorate their cases with pretty lights and fill their systems with utilities that merely duplicate Windows functions. Then there's the "Macs are friendly" myth (quite distinct from any technical differences between the platforms.) Whatever their skewed preferences, enthusiasts in these sectors are interested in the technical performance of the objects of their enthusiasm. They may give excessive weight to measures of performance like their equivalent hi-fi enthusiasts sometimes did in the 70s with 0.001% versus 0.0005% THD specifications. But these are real measures even if they are not particularly relevant to the function of the device. The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. Not opposed to measurement for the most part; opposed to the belief that the conventional measurements tell the whole story. There is also a philosophical issue: whether the ultimate goal of an hi-fi system is to accurately reproduce the source (tape, hard disk, vinyl, whatever) or whether it is to give the most "realistic" (eg. suspension of disbelief) rendering of the performance therein, as it squares up against remembered live sound. The magic fuel-economy devices are not being promoted by the mainstream auto press which also does not derive much of its income from the advertising of such products. The situation was the same with audiophile products in the 60s and early 70s in that they existed in the small ads but were ignored by the mainstream press and not stocked in the shops in the high street. The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not usually a hobby interest. Again, this is a bit of a strawman. If you look at an issue of TAS, or Stereophile, or the UK mags....mostly what you see are ads for amps, preamps, AV receivers, cd players, universal players....not much different than these same mags in the '60's and '70's (I still have a fair share of these). In the rear of these mags you find mostly small ads for dealers..also true years ago, but not as much. The only real difference you'll see (other than cd and universal players substituting for some tape recorders) is some ads for cables. And frankly, cables are more a factor in dealer profits than they are in magazine profits. Also, I haven't heard of anybody going broke buying cables. Whether you believe they affect sound or not, expensive cables tend to be bought by those who can afford them...and they may have aesthetic and pride of ownership reasons for that beyond pure sound issues. |
#45
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The usage of the word audiophile
The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate with what you hear? To put this the other way 'round... Are you saying that an amp with 0.02% harmonic distortion at full output will necessarily sound better than one with 0.2%? |
#46
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The usage of the word audiophile
There is also a philosophical issue: whether the ultimate goal
of an hi-fi system is to accurately reproduce the source (tape, hard disk, vinyl, whatever) or whether it is to give the most "realistic" (eg. suspension of disbelief) rendering of the performance therein, as it squares up against remembered live sound. These goals are not inconsistent or incompatible. |
#47
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The usage of the word audiophile
On Mar 31, 3:34 pm, "Harry Lavo" wrote:
The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not usually a hobby interest. Again, this is a bit of a strawman. If you look at an issue of TAS, or Stereophile, or the UK mags....mostly what you see are ads for amps, preamps, AV receivers, cd players, universal players....not much different than these same mags in the '60's and '70's (I still have a fair share of these). I was referring to the content promoting unscientific beliefs not the adverts. |
#48
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The usage of the word audiophile
On Mar 31, 3:50 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate with what you hear? An engineer or scientist takes measurements in order to reason about what is going on. The marketing people use (some of) them in order to promote the products. Journalists use them for a range of reasons. All are using them to serve their purposes. If you want to know what correlates with what you hear then that is what should be measured. The sound impinging on the ear is easy enough to measure and subjective impressions in controlled listening experiments are not difficult to measure either. However, measuring the ever changing factors influencing an individual's sound perception outside a controlled listening environment is very difficult. I think the problem here maybe that you are not separating the role a device may play in influencing the sound impinging on your ears and the role it may then play in your brain's interpretation of that sound along with, of course, a whole bunch of other factors. |
#49
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The usage of the word audiophile
"honestguvnor" wrote in message oups.com... On Mar 31, 3:50 pm, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate with what you hear? An engineer or scientist takes measurements in order to reason about what is going on. The marketing people use (some of) them in order to promote the products. Journalists use them for a range of reasons. All are using them to serve their purposes. If you want to know what correlates with what you hear then that is what should be measured. The sound impinging on the ear is easy enough to measure and subjective impressions in controlled listening experiments are not difficult to measure either. However, measuring the ever changing factors influencing an individual's sound perception outside a controlled listening environment is very difficult. I think the problem here maybe that you are not separating the role a device may play in influencing the sound impinging on your ears and the role it may then play in your brain's interpretation of that sound along with, of course, a whole bunch of other factors. No, the problem is that audiophiles are consumers, not scientists. To do a careful, fully controlled blind listening test suitable for the open-ended evaluation of audio quality between two components is a difficult and time-consuming task (it is easy to do a quick and dirty one using the wrong test tools, simply to prove their is "no difference"). A rigorous test can be done by scientists if they desire; it is beyond a reasonable expectation of the audiophile purchasing equipment, or simply listening for enjoyment. To denigrate and castigate audiophiles because they use sighted and long-term listening as standards is just foolish. |
#50
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The usage of the word audiophile
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... There is also a philosophical issue: whether the ultimate goal of an hi-fi system is to accurately reproduce the source (tape, hard disk, vinyl, whatever) or whether it is to give the most "realistic" (eg. suspension of disbelief) rendering of the performance therein, as it squares up against remembered live sound. These goals are not inconsistent or incompatible. Some people consider them so (I do not, personally). |
#51
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The usage of the word audiophile
"honestguvnor" wrote in message oups.com... On Mar 31, 3:34 pm, "Harry Lavo" wrote: The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not usually a hobby interest. Again, this is a bit of a strawman. If you look at an issue of TAS, or Stereophile, or the UK mags....mostly what you see are ads for amps, preamps, AV receivers, cd players, universal players....not much different than these same mags in the '60's and '70's (I still have a fair share of these). I was referring to the content promoting unscientific beliefs not the adverts. Could you spell out what you believe those are, and why you perceive them as unscientific? |
#52
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The usage of the word audiophile
On 31 Mar 2007 06:13:01 -0700, "honestguvnor"
wrote: The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not usually a hobby interest. I know people who treat alternative theraies as a hobby :-) Anyway. Wasn't this about editing the Wikipedia entry on Audiophiles? Not a good idea to do this from a partisan viewpoint - someone will just edit it back. If you want to present your manifesto why not start a new topic? "Audiophools" perhaps? |
#53
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The usage of the word audiophile
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:34:38 -0400, "Harry Lavo"
wrote: The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. Not opposed to measurement for the most part; opposed to the belief that the conventional measurements tell the whole story. See www.laurencepayne.co.uk/cables.html for my encounter with one mainstream British Hi-Fi comic which completely disdains technical measurement. |
#54
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The usage of the word audiophile
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 06:50:22 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/ promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed to measuring technical performance. What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate with what you hear? Because establishing that one parameter DOESN'T make a difference gets you one step closer to finding the parameter that DOES. |
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