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#1
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Producer seeks experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker's opinion.
Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker.
I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#2
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Deal Maker wrote:
What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. In that pricerange, I'd look seriously into the Panasonic AG-DVX100 http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat...ag-dvx100.html |
#3
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"Deal Maker" wrote in message m... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM Don't put the mic on the camera. A sane person without experience is a better bet than an on-camera mic. There is no aesthetic benefit obtainable from an on camera mic. You can add noise, or create controllable modifications, to a clean soundtrack much more easily than you can clean a dirty one. |
#4
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If the mic is staying on the camera, then the chances are it will sound like
crap, irresspective of what the mic is. Fact. Good luck though, Simon B "Deal Maker" wrote in message m... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#5
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The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style
of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? You must do your shooting: a) either in acoustically-treated studios with no echo, and with the camera within 4' of the actors' mouths, or b) in normal rooms with the camera within 2' of the actors' mouths, or c) outdoors and far from buildings and other reflectors, with the actors really projecting, and the camera within about 6' of their mouths. These options will actually work, assuming you've got a good quality mic and take levels carefully. Otherwise, what you've set up here is akin to saying "the actors have to keep their rears to the camera and wear masks for aesthetic reasons, and I want to see their faces clearly". Look: nobody wants to save money more than feature film producers. If they could eliminate the boom op and still get good sound, they would have done so years ago. If you can't afford a boom (or are scared of long sticks) and want good sound, use lavs. Or keep the actors in one place and use plants. Or realize that the camera-and-mic will have to be in the actors' faces. What, exactly, is your objection to gathering sound using the physical principles that Hollywood has acknowledged for the past 75 years? -- Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
#6
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The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and
myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. Miracle workers: After you have successfully pulled this one off, please help me with my problem. I am in desparate need of an exotic european sports car capable of 250mph and the 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want... Thanks in advance |
#7
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I personally do not see the relationship between money and a boom guy.
Heck you can find a boom guy that will work for free if you scout a university film program. Even if they don't entirely know what is going on, you'll still get better sound, and they will get to learn, and everyone is happy. Or, do you have any friends for pete's sakes? Let one of them hold the boom! Unless it is the cost of the boom itself that scares you...in which case I'd have to scratch my head even more. Deal Maker wrote: Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#8
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The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. Won't happen, can't happen. With the mic mounted on the camera, expect focus motor noise, cameraman noise, and lousy sound. Get an experienced boom op. It's even more important than having an experienced mixer. Think about it where does the sound come from? The mouth maybe; So get the mic in through the lights, and as close as possible. Also know the dialogue and have years of experience boomingt. OR use the camera mic and have the sound suck, your choice. |
#9
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Jaxon Bridge wrote in message ...
I personally do not see the relationship between money and a boom guy. Heck you can find a boom guy that will work for free if you scout a university film program. Even if they don't entirely know what is going on, you'll still get better sound, and they will get to learn, and everyone is happy. Or, do you have any friends for pete's sakes? Let one of them hold the boom! You can "find a boom guy that will work for free?" Sure just any ole pair of hands will do huh? Say hello to boom handling noise and bad mic placement. Unless it is the cost of the boom itself that scares you...in which case I'd have to scratch my head even more. Deal Maker wrote: Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#10
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Sure just any ole pair of hands will do huh? No, not any ole pair, but a pair of careful and enthusiastic hands from a university film program. They do exist, believe it or not. |
#11
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Jaxon Bridge wrote: Sure just any ole pair of hands will do huh? No, not any ole pair, but a pair of careful and enthusiastic hands from a university film program. They do exist, believe it or not. Whoa. Hey gang, let's not leverage another useful discussion out of perspective. The point that someone made was not intended to discount the value of an experienced boom operator. I don't think there would be much disagreement that a top notch boom op is critical to top notch sound. The point, as I took it, was that a pair of careful, though inexperienced, hands on a boom pole would be MUCH preferable to an on camera mic. I agree fully. John Blankenship, Indianapolis (One more win and Superbowl bound) |
#12
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Let's not underestimate the value of a good boom operator. I have had
producers suggest that "one of the PAs can boom for you". Sure. And we will let him load mags and pull focus, too. Boom operators bring to the set a specific set of skills that get better sound for the project. Budget constraints shouldn't blind us to that. The guy that booms for me is a valuable member of the sound department who assists me in breaking down the needs for each scene. He is always attentive to lighting and only needs a single rehearsal to get blocking down. In a worst-case scenario, I'd rather set up the cart and have myself boom. I can take 60 seconds and teach someone to press the REC button on my DEVA and call speed. I can't teach someone to be a good boom operator in a minute. The only people that are good at it are ones who are experienced. Jaxon Bridge wrote in message ... I personally do not see the relationship between money and a boom guy. Heck you can find a boom guy that will work for free if you scout a university film program. Even if they don't entirely know what is going on, you'll still get better sound, and they will get to learn, and everyone is happy. Or, do you have any friends for pete's sakes? Let one of them hold the boom! Unless it is the cost of the boom itself that scares you...in which case I'd have to scratch my head even more. |
#14
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I think some clarification would help:
From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. $1k of it is going to be spent as a token offering to a low B-level name star for their 18 day shooting commitment (they love the script, the project wouldn't get through page one with $3k if they didn't!) The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. So that said: VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Canon XL-1 and an Audio Technica Shotgun in a shock mount perhaps? Lets have some discussion, I am sure others can benefit from this topic besides myself. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#15
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The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. I don't know how much you know about lighting, composition, and the other things that make up decent camera work. But judging from your sincere questions in these NGs, it's probable you don't know much about sound. This is not, of itself, a problem. I work with plenty of directors who aren't knowledgable about sound, and get someone else to take care of it. There are plenty others who don't know the mechanics of getting an image; they trust their DPs and worry about the storytelling instead. But you're setting yourself up to have to worry about sound and picture at the same time you're trying to tell a story as director. That's a heck of a distraction level even for a seasoned professional. Do you really believe you'll be able to give directing your best efforts? VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Go to DV.com (free, non-spamming registration). I've done serious sound evaluations of most of the cameras you list, using lab equipment, and published the findings there. I'm not going to select one of those cameras for you here; there are too many things you have to take into account. Read the articles. You'll also find lots of articles and tutorials on camera work, sound, and guerrilla filmmaking. -- Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
#16
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Thanks,
In response to an e-mail, From the Dogme 95 "Vows of Chastity" "2. The sound must never be produced apart from the image or vice versa. (Music must not be used unless it occurs where the scene is being shot.) "3. The camera must be hand-held. Any movement or immobility attainable in the hand is permitted. (The film must not take place where the camera is standing; shooting must take place where the film takes place.) "4. The film must be in color. Special lighting is not acceptable. (If there is too little light for exposure, the scene must be cut or a single lamp [must] be attached to the camera.) Yes, these would be the only three "rules" we would be following. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#17
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So...get a student who is "interested in the project" (read "will work
for free"), give him/her a long stick...not necessarily a boompole, gaffer tape that Audio Technica mic on the end of it and point it in the diredtion of the shooting! It WILL give better results than the on-camera mic. -Jason Deal Maker wrote: Thanks, In response to an e-mail, From the Dogme 95 "Vows of Chastity" "2. The sound must never be produced apart from the image or vice versa. (Music must not be used unless it occurs where the scene is being shot.) |
#18
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(Deal Maker) wrote in message om...
I think some clarification would help: From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. $1k of it is going to be spent as a token offering to a low B-level name star for their 18 day shooting commitment (they love the script, the project wouldn't get through page one with $3k if they didn't!) The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. So that said: VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Canon XL-1 and an Audio Technica Shotgun in a shock mount perhaps? Yeah, that sounds about right. Keep in mind that using the zoom motor on an XL-1 will be heard by the camera mic, so test the shotgun on mount if you go that way. Also, you gotta be careful about camera handling noise. I've seen very successful sound recorded from the shotgun on mount on camera approach. I just bought an AT shotgun mic for like $60. that has good range, and 2 pattern settings. Lets have some discussion, I am sure others can benefit from this topic besides myself. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#19
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"Deal Maker" wrote in message m... I think some clarification would help: From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. Penny-wise and pound foolish. You're risking the entire project on one notion: that the sound obtained on-camera will be suitable. By simple inclusion of a kid with a broomstick, you have the option to make the sound anything you want, in post. Defying the established wisdom will probably doom the result, causing you to wonder why you didn't elect to spend $3500 instead. |
#20
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Hold on, the person was asking about camera set-ups that would give his
filmmaker the best sound with a camera mounted microphone. Why don't we address his question instead of saying "no, don't do it that way". Maybe he wants the "audio aesthetic" of the image/audio appearing to be coming from an "on location camera". That is what it will sound like without covering the directionality of sound. The question was, what would give the best sound, given the set-up? We don't know the story premise so instead of attacking the method let's talk about the original question. That is what it will sound like. It sounds like that is what he is trying. My guess would be any good shotgun in a suspended elastic mount (to reduce camera noise) would do the trick. Canon Xl-1 allows XLR equipment which will help. Maybe go with a XL-1 and a Sennheiser shotgun, since you are renting. Arri Owner |
#21
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"Arriflex16sr" wrote in message ... Hold on, the person was asking about camera set-ups that would give his filmmaker the best sound with a camera mounted microphone. Why don't we address his question instead of saying "no, don't do it that way". Maybe he wants the "audio aesthetic" of the image/audio appearing to be coming from an "on location camera". That is what it will sound like without covering the directionality of sound. The audio aesthetic can be supplied by manipulating in post. It's always preferable to start with a clean soundtrack. He can throw camera noise on top of it later. The problem is, what he wants to do is extremely risky. His desire is naive. If he was a pro, then there's a chance his desire comes from experience and wisdom. But no, it's this magic figure of $3000 that he's willing to blow. Later on, he'll wish he went for the high school kid with the mic taped to a broomstick. The question was, what would give the best sound, given the set-up? Really a difficult question for us to ask, since it's not likely that any of us have ever depended upon an on-camera mike to shoot a movie. By supplying an answer, we become complicit in the failure of the project. We don't know the story premise so instead of attacking the method let's talk about the original question. The wisdom of 70 years says this is a really bad idea. |
#22
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Okay,
I thought we would get more opinions, helping myself and others. Yes, the concept dictates that the footage have the aesthetic look and aesthetic sound of footage shot from a camera with the microphone on the camera. It's just, I'd like the filmmaker to get the best sound out of this set-up. So Canon XL-1 and a good shotgun in an elastic, suspended shock mount? Am I missing something? Thanks. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... I think some clarification would help: From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. $1k of it is going to be spent as a token offering to a low B-level name star for their 18 day shooting commitment (they love the script, the project wouldn't get through page one with $3k if they didn't!) The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. So that said: VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Canon XL-1 and an Audio Technica Shotgun in a shock mount perhaps? Lets have some discussion, I am sure others can benefit from this topic besides myself. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#23
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I think that you can keep the shotgun money for the sandwiches since the
"unique" position on the camera will give you exactly the same as one that already come with . keep the money for better salami, its hard to work on empty stomach -- Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland What the simple man need -a peas of white brad and the caviar could be black " Am I missing something? Thanks. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... I think some clarification would help: From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. $1k of it is going to be spent as a token offering to a low B-level name star for their 18 day shooting commitment (they love the script, the project wouldn't get through page one with $3k if they didn't!) The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. So that said: VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Canon XL-1 and an Audio Technica Shotgun in a shock mount perhaps? Lets have some discussion, I am sure others can benefit from this topic besides myself. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
#24
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"Deal Maker" wrote in message om... Okay, I thought we would get more opinions, helping myself and others. Yes, the concept dictates that the footage have the aesthetic look and aesthetic sound of footage shot from a camera with the microphone on the camera. It's just, I'd like the filmmaker to get the best sound out of this set-up. So Canon XL-1 and a good shotgun in an elastic, suspended shock mount? Am I missing something? Thanks. DM Yes, you are. The sound aesthetic you desire can be obtained by a mike on a boom pole. Because of the miracle of post processing, it can be made to sound as if it's coming from any camera you want, or a telephone, walkie talkie, hidden mic, or speaker's podium. All this can be done in a controlled fashion on an ordinary PC. But with the mic on the camera, you're stuck with what you get. Should there be a problem with intelligibility or grunge, or whine, or mic quality, it will be incorrectible. I've fooled around with the most sophisticated plugins for sound subtraction. None of them work as well as one would wish. |
#25
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I've fooled around with the most sophisticated plugins for sound subtraction. None of them work as well as one would wish. Does 'dogme' even let you use plugins for post? (P.S.: Try Cedar Retouch. It works as advertised... but takes a heck of a long time to use.) -- Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
#26
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Yep....
Good, useable sound. -- Martin Harrington www.lendanear-sound.com "Deal Maker" wrote in message om... Okay, I thought we would get more opinions, helping myself and others. Yes, the concept dictates that the footage have the aesthetic look and aesthetic sound of footage shot from a camera with the microphone on the camera. It's just, I'd like the filmmaker to get the best sound out of this set-up. So Canon XL-1 and a good shotgun in an elastic, suspended shock mount? Am I missing something? Thanks. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... I think some clarification would help: From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. $1k of it is going to be spent as a token offering to a low B-level name star for their 18 day shooting commitment (they love the script, the project wouldn't get through page one with $3k if they didn't!) The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. So that said: VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Canon XL-1 and an Audio Technica Shotgun in a shock mount perhaps? Lets have some discussion, I am sure others can benefit from this topic besides myself. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
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"Jay Rose CAS" wrote in message ... I've fooled around with the most sophisticated plugins for sound subtraction. None of them work as well as one would wish. Does 'dogme' even let you use plugins for post? (P.S.: Try Cedar Retouch. It works as advertised... but takes a heck of a long time to use.) I used ARS. Can you make a comparison? |
#28
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Deal Maker wrote: I thought we would get more opinions, helping myself and others. (SNIP Am I missing something? Apparently, yes, you are missing something. What you are missing is that your initial question has been answered by many people. You've chosen to ignore that answer. In your initial question, you did not mention that the film was "Dogme." That changes the equation a bit, but not too much. As I understand it, with "Dogme" you're allowed to break the rules as long as you state what rules you've broken. I don't think anyone would dis you for listing that sound was recorded by a kid holding a paint pole. You're still meeting the primary goal of documenting what occurred in the actual space at the actual time the film was created. One thing that hasn't been covered as thoroughly as using a boom pole is the acoustics of the spaces you're in. That's critical for the type of production you're doing -- or any production for that matter. For your locations choose places that are not very "live" which means they don't have much room reverb or echo. Walk into the location and clap your hands. If you hear much sound beyond the initial clap -- such as the decay of the original sound, echos, flutter echos, or expignant noises -- then choose another location. Listen for extraneous sounds such as air conditioning, fridges, traffic, etc., then, choose your location based upon ambient sound that enhances the film rather than injures it. Remember, that for wise advice to work, someone has to be wise enough to take that advice. Good luck, John Blankenship, Indianapolis |
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DM,
FYI, I played today with a Panasonic DVX-80 with a Sanken CS-1 in the Panasonic shock mount. It was quite possibly the worst thing I have listened to in a while. The cruddy headphone amps notwithstanding (I didn't bother listening to a playback..), the handling noise of the camera that was transmitted through to the mic was incredible! I could hear every release of the zoom control, every time my hand slid around on the body, every rub on the handle (if you did it "right" you could completely overload the mic pre!). My advice, rent your intended setup for a day. Try it out, see if you can get it to sound the way you need it to sound. ---Matt Chicago, IL Deal Maker wrote: Okay, I thought we would get more opinions, helping myself and others. Yes, the concept dictates that the footage have the aesthetic look and aesthetic sound of footage shot from a camera with the microphone on the camera. It's just, I'd like the filmmaker to get the best sound out of this set-up. So Canon XL-1 and a good shotgun in an elastic, suspended shock mount? Am I missing something? Thanks. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... I think some clarification would help: From a visual/audio aesthetic standpoint think "Blair Witch" and "The Celebration". Image pumped up a notch over what they got with their single-ccd Hi-8 and single-ccd Mini-dv cameras, similar audio, at least aesthetically similiar but hoping for the best that can be rung out of a possible system. Will rent the equipment: The $3k is all I want to risk on the concept. $1k of it is going to be spent as a token offering to a low B-level name star for their 18 day shooting commitment (they love the script, the project wouldn't get through page one with $3k if they didn't!) The filmmaker is going to be the director/cameraman/sound and edit the project. So that said: VX2100, VX2000, PD-150, DVX-100, XL-1 or GL-2 or ? The list goes on. What camera set-up and external mic will deliver the most out of the above approach. Canon XL-1 and an Audio Technica Shotgun in a shock mount perhaps? Lets have some discussion, I am sure others can benefit from this topic besides myself. DM (Deal Maker) wrote in message om... Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. What camera/audio set-up would people recommend. I have done extensive google research and have read the sound on a lot of mini-dv units is poor. The VX-2000/PD-150 hiss issue, cameras with undefeatable audio gain, etc., etc., It seems the picture quality will be in the same ballpark for the majority of pro-sumer cameras but the audio won't. Keep in mind this feature will have a budget of less than 3K so saying hire a sound guy to follow your director/cameraman (the same person) around will not help. The 3K is coming out of my pocket so I want to give the filmmaker (and myself) the best chance of doing it right given the limitations. The mic has to stay on the camera issue is integral part of the style of shooting the filmmaker will be doing and helps the story aesthetically. I want good sound. What is the consensus? DM |
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It was quite possibly the worst thing I have listened to in a while. The cruddy headphone amps notwithstanding (I didn't bother listening to a playback..)... On a lot of cameras I've tested, the headphone amps are better than the playback. To avoid latency, they don't consider the ADC/DAC stage... which can be horribly bandwidth-limited. -- Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
#31
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Robert,
Okay, I now understand your arguement. Acquire the highest quality sound at the onset, then degrade as needed. Good methodology. Thank you. DM "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... "Deal Maker" wrote in message snip So Canon XL-1 and a good shotgun in an elastic, suspended shock mount? Am I missing something? Thanks. DM Yes, you are. The sound aesthetic you desire can be obtained by a mike on a boom pole. Because of the miracle of post processing, it can be made to sound as if it's coming from any camera you want, or a telephone, walkie talkie, hidden mic, or speaker's podium. All this can be done in a controlled fashion on an ordinary PC. But with the mic on the camera, you're stuck with what you get. Should there be a problem with intelligibility or grunge, or whine, or mic quality, it will be incorrectible. I've fooled around with the most sophisticated plugins for sound subtraction. None of them work as well as one would wish. |
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David Waelder wrote:
Sometimes a very low profile and amateur appearance is the very thing that permits the videographer to record remarkable things. A documentary about urban street gangs, or a political campaign film made riding in the bus with the candidate, might be a great thing. Two and three man crews have done this kind of work before but one person with a small camera might get more intimate and casual access than even a small crew. That doesnıt necessarily make for a better film than the bigger crew but it might be a different one in other ways than the obvious technical ones. ... My technical advice is simple. ... 2. Have a machinist make a custom bracket to hold the microphone above the camera, as far as possible away from zoom motors, etc. Ideally it might be extendable so it could be a short extension inside a car and longer when working outdoors or in regular rooms. It should permit at least a foot of extension; more is better. 3. Acquire a very good shockmount for the mike. I like the Panamic but that may be too heavy for your application. The K-Tek mount looks very good. Thinking along these lines, I'd want a bracket that would put the zoom motor and other noisy camera bits angled as close to the microphone null as possible. In fact, I'm surprised someone like Lightwave hasn't come up with a design like this already... |
#35
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You could try an Ambient "Mini Mike" on the camera to get away from the
camera noise. -- Martin Harrington www.lendanear-sound.com "David Waelder" wrote in message ... On 1/15/04 10:26 AM, in article , "Deal Maker" wrote: Question for the Experienced filmmmaker/vidoemaker. I have been pitched an idea for a genre blending filmmaking project and have given the filmmaker the green light on a low budget feature (to be shot on mini-dv). For story/aesthetic/logistic reasons the microphone HAS to stay on the camera. I am experienced enough to know that the BANE of indie/low budget film is poor audio. My own experience in film production over the last ten or more years has been almost exclusively with scripted productions. Even my one experience working with the Canon XL-1 was a regular show with a script super, 1st and 2nd A.D.ıs, etc. But I have some documentary work in my background so, with some trepidation, Iıll wade into this morass. I think that ³DealMaker² has been ill served by many of the replies that take him to task for failing to commit the resources necessary to reliably accomplish good sound recording. The technical aspects of making a movie are only a part of the enterprise and, arguably, not the most important one. Having an interesting story or experience to relate and showing it with a distinctive point of view is always the most important element. If the camerawork is shakey or sound is thin but the on-screen events are compelling, then people with watch. News footage is an obvious example. Of course, audiences do get tired and annoyed by blurry images and straining to pick words out of a noisy environment so professionals try to make the experience as pleasant and effortless as they can. Sometimes a very low profile and amateur appearance is the very thing that permits the videographer to record remarkable things. A documentary about urban street gangs, or a political campaign film made riding in the bus with the candidate, might be a great thing. Two and three man crews have done this kind of work before but one person with a small camera might get more intimate and casual access than even a small crew. That doesnıt necessarily make for a better film than the bigger crew but it might be a different one in other ways than the obvious technical ones. Some of my colleagues have suggested a careful evaluation of the wisdom of making the project at all. Guys, I respectfully suggest that this might not be behavior we would want to encourage. Looking back over my career, I can clearly see that at least half of the films Iıve worked would never have been made if the producer had exercised good sense (and I would have been unable to earn a living). Praise be for producers with more money than sense! Moreover, judging which enterprise is likely to be successful is a perilous enterprise. Who among us would have ³greenlighted² the recent film ³Spelling Bee?² Or the HBO film ³Conspiracy² about the Wannsee Conference? And, any foolish enterprise may be the genesis of something better to come. Trying to write a script from a book about poaching orchids is (probably) a doomed undertaking. But the film about trying to write that script has enjoyed great success. Every project a producer makes is a learning experience for all the participants. In this case, ³DealMaker² will hazard only $3000. At worst, he may have an unwatchable film for little more than what Orsen Welles would spend on a few lunches. Heıll learn about what works and what doesnıt and heıll keep an otherwise layabout videographer off the streets. My technical advice is simple. 1.I donıt know what is the very best microphone for this undertaking but more good documentary work has been done with the Sennheiser MKH 416 short shotgun mike than almost anything else. At the very least, any microphone candidates should be auditioned in competition with the Sennheiser. Better, acquire the power supplies and adapters that permit using the Sennheiser with the camera of choice and donıt look back. 2. Have a machinist make a custom bracket to hold the microphone above the camera, as far as possible away from zoom motors, etc. Ideally it might be extendable so it could be a short extension inside a car and longer when working outdoors or in regular rooms. It should permit at least a foot of extension; more is better. 3. Acquire a very good shockmount for the mike. I like the Panamic but that may be too heavy for your application. The K-Tek mount looks very good. 4. As others have suggested, choose locations that are sound friendly. Any production benefits from this advice. 5. Try to structure the filming style to keep the camera within four feet (or less) of the subjects. The closer you work to the people talking, the less wretched the sound will be. (notice I didnıt say ³better²) 6. Alternately, keep the camera a discreet distance from the subjects. When lip movements are not clearly seen, itıs easy to replace sound with dialog recorded later or with a subject voice over. Of course, this violates the Dogma principal. If you must stick to the Dogma ideals, reread the comments, above, about a fool and his money. 7. Most importantly, make tests with the selected equipment under circumstances that closely approximate working conditions. Jettison the approaches that donıt work and refine those that do. I hope this helps. I'll be interested to hear how it all turns out. (But I think I probably already know.) David Waelder |
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