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#1
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
I have been mic'ing pretty close with the spots, say 1-2 feet off
off individual instuments. Same for the spots on the singer(s). The trouble I'm having is, when I bring up the spots into the main pair, it doesn't sound natural and realistic, the way it sounds during the actual performance. I'm thinking maybe I'm putting the spots too close. For example, I'm getting breath sounds off the singer, which you wouldn't really hear during a live performance. I'm thinking maybe I would get a spot recording that would be easier to integrate (i.e. sound natural) if I backed the spots off to 3-5 feet. Right now, it seems like I have to keep the spots down real low otherwise it sounds pretty obvious that the mic's were set right up on the source. What I'm wondering is do I just need to keep the spots set low? Or would it be best to back them off some so that the source doesn't sound so "close mic'd"? Have others run into this problem and can relate with what I'm talking about? |
#2
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
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#3
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
wrote in message ups.com... I have been mic'ing pretty close with the spots, say 1-2 feet off off individual instuments. Same for the spots on the singer(s). How does the coloration of the spot mics compare with that of the main pair. The trouble I'm having is, when I bring up the spots into the main pair, it doesn't sound natural and realistic, the way it sounds during the actual performance. You know of course that there is not just one sound of an actual performance, right? I'm thinking maybe I'm putting the spots too close. I dunno about this too close thing. Like so many others I use individual mics for vocalists, and they hold them a few inches away from their mouths. For example, I'm getting breath sounds off the singer, which you wouldn't really hear during a live performance. The means for avoiding breath sounds and popping of microphones are well known. I'm thinking maybe I would get a spot recording that would be easier to integrate (i.e. sound natural) if I backed the spots off to 3-5 feet. That's what I do for spot mics that relate to a small group of sources or an otherwise large source. Right now, it seems like I have to keep the spots down real low otherwise it sounds pretty obvious that the mic's were set right up on the source. Probably because there are vast differences in the timbre, and/or the reverb in the spots and that which is picked up by the main pair. What I'm wondering is do I just need to keep the spots set low? Do what sounds best to you. Or would it be best to back them off some so that the source doesn't sound so "close mic'd"? There is a lot to be said for experimentation. When it comes to micing, one setup does not fit all sitautions. Have others run into this problem and can relate with what I'm talking about? (1) Pick spot mics that are as uncolored as possible to go with my uncolored as possible main pair. (2) Use coincident pairs as spot mics for larger sources, and mix them in as a stereo source with different panning for each mic. (3) Mix and mic so that for a given source, either the main pair or the spot mics predominate |
#4
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
Spot miking is problematical, and as others have written its aimed at
getting just a small touch of additional focus on sources that would otherwise sound too distant from the main pair...either due to low sound output, competing with nearby louder sources, odd dispersion/propagation patterns or simply distance. The ABC Classic FM radio network in Australia uses spot mics on harps, woodwinds, tympani and percussion, piano, double bass, solo violin or voice....brought into the mix at low level, and with reverb added (shock ..horror !) from a good quality hardware box (eg TC Electronic 3000 or 5000) to 'place the spot mic back in the room'. You can use a large room reverb but again, in small amounts, and it really glues the picture together. Also, rolling off some treble eq on the spot mic can render it less 'present'...as can backing off to about 3 feet. And if its a cadioid spot you don't want it so close that proximity boost starts to become a factor either ! You could also try an omni spot instead of cardioid, if closer spot miking is mandated, as this will pull a little more of the 'room sound' into your mix. Little and sparing is the keyword with spot miking, and only to give enough edge definition to the instrument concerned. Also take care to pan it in the same sector of the left/right image as it's placed in by the main pickup pair, otherwise you get weird 'smearing effects' which tip listeners off to what you have been doing. Your job is to maintain the illusion .... not become Phil Spector ! Remember, your main pair should be supplying 95% or more of the total mix volume. Experiment a lot too ! Ray wrote in message ups.com... I have been mic'ing pretty close with the spots, say 1-2 feet off off individual instuments. Same for the spots on the singer(s). The trouble I'm having is, when I bring up the spots into the main pair, it doesn't sound natural and realistic, the way it sounds during the actual performance. I'm thinking maybe I'm putting the spots too close. For example, I'm getting breath sounds off the singer, which you wouldn't really hear during a live performance. I'm thinking maybe I would get a spot recording that would be easier to integrate (i.e. sound natural) if I backed the spots off to 3-5 feet. Right now, it seems like I have to keep the spots down real low otherwise it sounds pretty obvious that the mic's were set right up on the source. What I'm wondering is do I just need to keep the spots set low? Or would it be best to back them off some so that the source doesn't sound so "close mic'd"? Have others run into this problem and can relate with what I'm talking about? |
#5
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
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#6
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
wrote:
The trouble I'm having is, when I bring up the spots into the main pair, it doesn't sound natural and realistic, the way it sounds during the actual performance. I'm thinking maybe I'm putting the spots too close. For example, I'm getting breath sounds off the singer, which you wouldn't really hear during a live performance. I'm thinking maybe I would get a spot recording that would be easier to integrate (i.e. sound natural) if I backed the spots off to 3-5 feet. Yes, that would help. But now you're getting more leakage. Right now, it seems like I have to keep the spots down real low otherwise it sounds pretty obvious that the mic's were set right up on the source. Right, that's normal. What I'm wondering is do I just need to keep the spots set low? Or would it be best to back them off some so that the source doesn't sound so "close mic'd"? Have others run into this problem and can relate with what I'm talking about? Spot mikes are always a bad idea, but sometimes they are a necessary evil. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#7
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
How far might be a good distance to stand off a spot on
a piano? |
#8
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
In article . com,
wrote: How far might be a good distance to stand off a spot on a piano? Far enough that you can't hear the hammers. The 421 parallel-to-the-floor technique shown in this month's Live Sound works pretty well. Problem is that if you pull back much more, you get everything else leaking into the piano mikes; on the long stick, the piano is almost designed to funnel all the sounds in the hall down inside it. My feeling is that if you have to spot the piano in an orchestra, either the piano itself isn't placed properly or set up properly, or you have the main pair in a very wrong place. A piano is a very loud instrument when played that way. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
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#10
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
pandorapayne wrote ...
I have been mic'ing pretty close with the spots, say 1-2 feet off off individual instuments. Same for the spots on the singer(s). The trouble I'm having is, when I bring up the spots into the main pair, it doesn't sound natural and realistic, the way it sounds during the actual performance. You ran up and put your head a few feet from the soloist (instrumental or vocal) *during the performance*? Else how are you defining "natural and realistic"? I'm thinking maybe I'm putting the spots too close. For example, I'm getting breath sounds off the singer, which you wouldn't really hear during a live performance. I'm thinking maybe I would get a spot recording that would be easier to integrate (i.e. sound natural) if I backed the spots off to 3-5 feet. Right now, it seems like I have to keep the spots down real low otherwise it sounds pretty obvious that the mic's were set right up on the source. I think you are not the first to discover this phenomenon. What I'm wondering is do I just need to keep the spots set low? Or would it be best to back them off some so that the source doesn't sound so "close mic'd"? Have others run into this problem and can relate with what I'm talking about? "Zooming in" on instruments in classical music recording has been a controversial technique since likely before you were born. There were certain labels back in the days of black vinyl who had a reputation for making "classical" recordings vs. "pop-style" multi-track, spot-mic, post- produced wonders. Perhaps the latter appeal to the pop/ rock music crowd, while the former are likely prefered by people who actually attend live concerts of classical music. |
#11
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
"Richard Crowley" writes:
Snip "Zooming in" on instruments in classical music recording has been a controversial technique since likely before you were born. There were certain labels back in the days of black vinyl who had a reputation for making "classical" recordings vs. "pop-style" multi-track, spot-mic, post- produced wonders. Perhaps the latter appeal to the pop/ rock music crowd, while the former are likely prefered by people who actually attend live concerts of classical music. Hi Richard - Problem is, we're already doing "unnatural" things by including mics, electronics, and speakers in the transmission path between music and listener. Sometimes the musically appropriate amount of spot added into a mix can mitigate (hide?) inherent failings elsewhere in the process. Plus, sometimes the hall and players need a little help as well. In a perfect world, I'd agree with you 100%. (And as a live concert attendee I also agree 100%.) Sometimes perfection in a recording does happen with venue, performance and technology, but sadly not all that often. Whenever possible I *won't* use them very much if at all, but I like the mix options offered by spots. YMMV. Frank Stearns Mobile Audio -- |
#12
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
"Frank Stearns" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" writes: Snip "Zooming in" on instruments in classical music recording has been a controversial technique since likely before you were born. There were certain labels back in the days of black vinyl who had a reputation for making "classical" recordings vs. "pop-style" multi-track, spot-mic, post- produced wonders. Perhaps the latter appeal to the pop/ rock music crowd, while the former are likely prefered by people who actually attend live concerts of classical music. Hi Richard - Problem is, we're already doing "unnatural" things by including mics, electronics, and speakers in the transmission path between music and listener. Sometimes the musically appropriate amount of spot added into a mix can mitigate (hide?) inherent failings elsewhere in the process. Plus, sometimes the hall and players need a little help as well. In a perfect world, I'd agree with you 100%. (And as a live concert attendee I also agree 100%.) Sometimes perfection in a recording does happen with venue, performance and technology, but sadly not all that often. Whenever possible I *won't* use them very much if at all, but I like the mix options offered by spots. YMMV. Indeed. Perhaps it is the difference between a well- integrated spot-mic assistance, vs. surrealistic high- lighting of the solo instrument, etc. That is an artistic decision at least as much as a technical issue. I will admit to a bit of "surrealism" myself when I know that is what the customer (or the audience) prefers. The labels with a reputation for making great classical recordings typically selected optimal recording conditions, something not all of us are priveleged to do. |
#13
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
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#14
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
The labels with a reputation for making great classical
recordings typically selected optimal recording conditions, something not all of us are priveleged to do. Which means a combination of state of the art venue, conductor, performers & tonmeister. For the other 99% of the time we use whatever tools we have to, including spot mics, to try to get close to the ideal. Scott Fraser |
#15
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
My philosophy on spot mics is that in most situations, they are a necessary
evil. There is one hall that I work in where I can get away without them, but even then, some ensembles benefit from the sound I get with multiple spots. My spot list will usually include woodwinds (2 mics in a spaced pair), piano, harp, and celeste. Also the solo instrument will usually get a spot mic. To integrate them in the recording, I'll usually delay the mics so that they are time aligned with the main pair or main array. In addition, I'll use a bit of reverb on those mics to correlate the ambience as needed. Now, the positioning doesn't necessarily follow rules as to how close or how far from their source they are. Generally, woodwind mics are about 5-6 feet up and a couple feet in front of the section on individual stands. Harp, piano and celeste are usually mic'd relatively close because a distant micing results in bleed that negates the usefulness of those mics. Soloists get a more distant treatment and a micing the very my depends on the instrument (ie pianos usually get a stereo pair, but the kind and the mic depends on the instrument. Vocalists/violinists, etc.. usually get single point spots). The integration of these mics into the final sound is very much dependent on careful mixing. As I said, I'll usually delay them which helps, but in the end it can rest on a dB of gain as to whether a spot mic is providing the natural detail on the sound or is unnecessarily highlighting an instrument that needs to be in the ensemble. When using reverb, I am careful with the level which it sends out- an instrument with a long decay (like a piano or harp) will usually get less than a celeste which has a shorter decay time. In the end, let your ears be the guide and don't be afraid to do anything that may be "against" what the book (or internet) says is right. --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA please delete the obvious spam blocking to reply |
#16
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
Richard Crowley wrote:
Indeed. Perhaps it is the difference between a well- integrated spot-mic assistance, vs. surrealistic high- lighting of the solo instrument, etc. That is an artistic decision at least as much as a technical issue. I will admit to a bit of "surrealism" myself when I know that is what the customer (or the audience) prefers. I'll do this too, but I won't go as far as Vanguard went with Mischa Elman, for instance. The labels with a reputation for making great classical recordings typically selected optimal recording conditions, something not all of us are priveleged to do. Some of those labels, like DG for instance, actually make pretty shockingly unrealistic recordings, because that's what their audience wants. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
Richard Crowley wrote: You ran up and put your head a few feet from the soloist (instrumental or vocal) *during the performance*? Else how are you defining "natural and realistic"? Ears hear differently... One-point stereo setups from a "natural" listening position don't sound like what a listener in the same position perceived. A certain extra focus from spot mics can help. |
#18
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
"Daniel Fuchs" wrote ...
Ears hear differently... One-point stereo setups from a "natural" listening position don't sound like what a listener in the same position perceived. A certain extra focus from spot mics can help. Exactly. I was trying to point out that the OP was using TOO MUCH spot mic to retain any semblence of "natural" effect. |
#19
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
Scott Dorsey wrote: My feeling is that if you have to spot the piano in an orchestra, either the piano itself isn't placed properly or set up properly, or you have the main pair in a very wrong place. A piano is a very loud instrument when played that way. Esp. in live situations, you can't always place the main pair in a place where it will pick up the piano, esp. if it's a solo piano which is positioned behind the conductor at times. And with the lid half open, it may simply not project in the direction of the main pair enough. A bit of "piano spotting" will do no harm. Daniel |
#20
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
pandorapayne wrote:
I have been mic'ing pretty close with the spots, say 1-2 feet off off individual instuments. Same for the spots on the singer(s). The trouble I'm having is, when I bring up the spots into the main pair, it doesn't sound natural and realistic, the way it sounds during the actual performance. I'm thinking maybe I'm putting the spots too close. For example, I'm getting breath sounds off the singer, which you wouldn't really hear during a live performance. I'm thinking maybe I would get a spot recording that would be easier to integrate (i.e. sound natural) if I backed the spots off to 3-5 feet. Right now, it seems like I have to keep the spots down real low otherwise it sounds pretty obvious that the mic's were set right up on the source. What I'm wondering is do I just need to keep the spots set low? Or would it be best to back them off some so that the source doesn't sound so "close mic'd"? Have others run into this problem and can relate with what I'm talking about? You have to back them off, turn them down (maybe both) or get them into close time alignment with the main pair after rolling off some upper mids and highs on the spot mic feeds. If this is multitracked you can tweak most of these variables in post. -- ha |
#21
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Trouble integrating spots with main pair in orchestra recording
all good advice .... and a major determinant is whether you are recording a
live mix to stereo, where immediate decisions are required, or maintaining multitrack separation...in which case why not go to town with all the spots you might need and mix at your leisure in post ? Ray "hank alrich" wrote in message .. . pandorapayne wrote: I have been mic'ing pretty close with the spots, say 1-2 feet off off individual instuments. Same for the spots on the singer(s)................ |
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