Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
In Article , "Ron Charles"
wrote: The Oktavas from Sound Room are good, but for piano I would suggest (at the same price point) either a pair of Beyer M260 ribbon mics, or perhaps a couple of used Crown PZM mics, depending on the sound you want. RON CHARLES In the midst of a review of the nickel diaphragm Gefell M 294, 295, 296, I got a chance to revisit the MC012 (mostly in cardioid, and from Sound Room). I was reminded that they are boomy on the bottom and have a bit of skritch on top. For the price, though, that's a pretty good deal. Regards, Ty Ford For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews, click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grandpiano at home
One line of thought will suggest that you get a Steinway "D", condition your room for optimal acoustics, get the world's best mikes and CERTAINLY separate preamps --- and I'm often in this line of thought. But for the moment, why not just go ahead and record, and see how it comes out?
(Do try ribbons, though.) James Boyk |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
Kelly wrote:
Hi all - I am going to purchase microphones to record my grand piano (at my home) [ ... ] Does anyone have any suggestions or reference information to help me decide whether to buy small or large diaphragm condenser mikes? Thanks! That normally isn't the first or the primary decision. First you have to have a reasonably clear concept of what kind of sound you're hoping for, and then you can make a plan for how to get it, if that's possible. From everything I've read here, Oktava microphones from The Sound Room might well be a good starting point for trying out some possibilities. I don't use them myself, but I hear that they're not too expensive and rather good sounding for the price. That's a good level to start out at. Once you've used them in a bunch of ways and listened to the results, you will (I hope) find that your perceptions and judgments about piano recording will have progressed, such that you may find yourself thinking about your whole conception of recorded piano sound somewhat differently. That's experiential learning for you--a notoriously wayward process. But if you're a musician, you already knew that ... If your interest is in classical music or in other music that is normally listened to in "real-world" acoustics rather than artificial/electronic, you may find that it takes an "obscenely large" (to use Roy Allison's term) living room with the right balance of materials to give you a satisfying room sound. This can be quite frustrating since only rather wealthy people can usually afford a living room that large and that specifically furnished. There's a reason why the best studios for classical (or natural sounding acoustic recording generally) are large, rare, and rather costly to rent. Many good classical recordings are made in concert halls, churches and other spaces that aren't, in themselves, recording studios for this reason. But there's no guarantee whatsoever that you can get a beautiful piano sound in a living room that's anything like most people's living rooms. The laws of physics don't let you substitute anything else for the required spatial proportions and volume of enclosed air, unfortunately. If you want recordings that cleanly document what you're playing, you can make relatively close, "dry" recordings that are well-balanced and accurate within the context of documentary sound quality--and there's a fairly wide variety of microphones which you can use for that purpose. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
James Boyk wrote:
(Do try ribbons, though.) Understand that with a Mackie 1202 preamping one will be restricted to ribbons like the active Royers, because gain enough for others there is not. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
Kelly wrote:
Hi all - I am going to purchase microphones to record my grand piano (at my home), and I am considering a matched pair of Oktava stereo mikes from the Sound Room (www.oktava.com). Does anyone have any suggestions or reference information to help me decide whether to buy small or large diaphragm condenser mikes? Thanks! Get the mikes that you like the sound of, and don't worry if they are large or small diaphragm condensers, ribbons, or what have you. People worry too much. Use your ears. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grandpiano at home
LeBaron & Alrich wrote: Understand that with a Mackie 1202 preamping
one will be restricted to ribbons like the active Royers, because gain enough for others there is not. Goodness! If they can't handle say Coles 4038, they can't handle studio dynamics---and THAT would surprise me. (On the other hand, I've been surprised many times in my life.) Part of my point in calling attention to ribbons is that everyone is so used to hearing condenser recordings that many people in the biz have "normalized" on that sound as being the sound of music, which it's very much not. I've seen time after time that professional musicians have been astonished the first time they're recorded with ribbons---from my friend the clarinetest to my friend to soprano to the Chicago Symphony Winds, whom I helped Sheffield record. "Finally," they say, "a sound I can relate to!" Taking this a bit further, it's my guess that typical recorded sound---condenser mikes, s-s preamps, CD-std. digital; sound without 'core'; sound that's thin and rather harsh---has become so very much the "norm" that even a manufacturer like Steinway is now somewhat shaping the sound of its pianos to the sound people expect from their experience, not with pianos, but with recordings of pianos. James Boyk |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand pianoat home
Chris Hornbeck wrote: Would anybody in the group be interested in a mic pre-preamp project? Something that could run off phantom power and fit into an XLR shell is easy to do; two JFETs and a few resistors. I'm surprised that there aren't somesuch available commercially. Or are there? But I could easily describe how to do it, for anyone who can solder. Does the bear **** in the woods? :-) Go for it. Can you give it 20 dB of variable gain and about -140 dBu EIN? Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
[ topic drift warning lights ON ... ]
Chris Hornbeck wrote: Would anybody in the group be interested in a mic pre-preamp project? Something that could run off phantom power and fit into an XLR shell is easy to do; two JFETs and a few resistors. I'm surprised that there aren't somesuch available commercially. Or are there? I haven't seen any so far, but Sanken recently announced a product of this type, model HAD-48, which is to be available in a few weeks at a projected price around $200 apiece. It's an in-line device about 4" long which runs off of phantom power (3 mA per microphone) and offers switchable 20 or 40 dB gain. It can be attached directly to the XLR-3M plug of a ribbon or other dynamic microphone and has its own XLR-3M output. I recently got specifications from the U.S. distributor ("plus24", which may sound like the name for a banking/ATM network but they're nice people) and I've ordered a pair for testing. Frankly the specifications were a bit disappointing; on paper it seems like a product that will inspire someone else to make a version with somewhat better performance, especially in the areas of input noise (it's specified only as "noise," but since it's given as -121 dBA I figure that it must be equivalent input noise) and frequency response (it's down a dB or two on top and almost 3 dB on the bottom). Plus the "expected receive side impedance" is specified as 10 kOhms which, if true, would exclude most real-world mixers and preamps. But I was told that "it will work with lower loads as well." So we'll see. I'll post a message here when I've had a chance to measure them and/or try them out. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 23:43:48 -0700, Bob Cain
wrote: Go for it. Can you give it 20 dB of variable gain and about -140 dBu EIN? Variable gain is "built in" to any simple design, by changing the loading. FET's are high output impedance, current-source devices, and don't mind us loading them with a resistor to set gain. That's a good thing because we have the phantom resistors, 13.62 K ohms, and the mic preamp's input impedance to drive anyway. We'll just add another (resistive) load in parallel. The noise requirement of 125nV is equivalent to about 50 ohms at room temperature. Might be too strict for 300 ohm sources, but it's do-able with common FET's. Each will need to have a transconductance of 40mA/V because they're in series as a noise source. I'll try to sort a batch of 2SK369's today or tomorrow, to see what kind of matching we'd get in a random batch of 16 from MCM. And post back. Thanks for your interest, Chris Hornbeck |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:07:20 -0700, Bob Cain
wrote: Chris, FWIW my main interest and reason for specifying such low noise would be as a "booster" pre-amp to bring low sensitivity mics up to where they weren't colliding with the less than stellar noise floor of the moderately priced front end pre/AD boxes that are now appearing left and right. If you have an XLR input with phantom on it you can pretty well count on there already being a pre on the other side of it that will give you a reasonably adjustable gain range but you can't count on it being quiet enough for low sensitivity mics in low SPL conditions. Hi Bob, That makes good sense to me, and is also the situation that's got me thinking about this project. I'm hoping to save up for a Royer SF12 someday, and will need suitable preamps. To clarify/correct my previous post: An input noise level of -140dBu (presumably unweighted) is 77.5nV, the noise made by a resistor of less than 20 ohms. This can certainly be done, but I don't know how using only phantom power and common devices. No doubt somebody smarter than me could though. But this low a noise spec may not matter enough to us to worry about, because the noise of the microphone's own resistance will swamp it. The Royer SF12 or Coles 4038, for example, is 300 ohms. If we can relax the spec 4dB to 125nV and an equivalent resistance of 50 ohms, we can use a selected pair of 2SK369's. Today I rough-checked a random batch of BL group 2SK369's and found four pairs of .5% matching I-sub-DSS, out of sixteen transistors. All four pairs were within 9.75 thru 11.1 mA, requiring a small source resistor. Or, if we could relax the spec 7dB to 180nV and an equivalent resistance of 100 ohms, we can use the 2SK389 GR duals. Checked two today and found I-sub-DSS matching of 1-2% and *ideal* absolute numbers of 5.7 and 6.1 mA. Do you have any thoughts about a desirable input impedance? We can have pretty much anything we want. What would be a good load for the transformers in ribbon mic's, I wonder? Chris Hornbeck |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grandpiano at home
Chris Hornbeck wrote: To clarify/correct my previous post: An input noise level of -140dBu (presumably unweighted) Actually I was thinking weighted so that gives a bit more room. is 77.5nV, the noise made by a resistor of less than 20 ohms. This can certainly be done, but I don't know how using only phantom power and common devices. No doubt somebody smarter than me could though. Not me, for sure. What will the phantom resistors contribute? If we can relax the spec 4dB to 125nV and an equivalent resistance of 50 ohms, we can use a selected pair of 2SK369's. Today I rough-checked a random batch of BL group 2SK369's and found four pairs of .5% matching I-sub-DSS, out of sixteen transistors. All four pairs were within 9.75 thru 11.1 mA, requiring a small source resistor. That would be fine. The -140 dVu figure was off the top of my head as about where the sublime would begin. Or, if we could relax the spec 7dB to 180nV and an equivalent resistance of 100 ohms, we can use the 2SK389 GR duals. Checked two today and found I-sub-DSS matching of 1-2% and *ideal* absolute numbers of 5.7 and 6.1 mA. If the spectrum is fairly flat, the A-weighting would make that about -135 dBu which is still a whole lot better than many of the boxes it could front. Do you have any thoughts about a desirable input impedance? We can have pretty much anything we want. What would be a good load for the transformers in ribbon mic's, I wonder? Is Scott Dorsey around? He could address that a lot more knowledgably than I could. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:10:39 -0700, Bob Cain
wrote: What will the phantom resistors contribute? That's a very good point. Since the phantom resistors will be passing about 6mA each, they'll need to be up to snuff, and well matched. The thermal noise contribution of the total parallel load resistance (phantom r's in series, preamp input, and any shunt gain-set resistor in our project, all in parallel) increases with the square root of resistance. But gain, and therefor signal, increases linearly. So we should go for as high a gain as practical for lowest noise. Using the 40mA/V FET's, effectively in series for transconductance here, means a gain of R-sub-Total Load divided by 50 ohms. A typical(?) load of 1000 ohms means a gain of 26dB. A little more would be nice, but tough to get. The 20mA/V duals would only be 20dB gain. Maybe enough; I don't know how to guesstimate it. Is Scott Dorsey around? He could address that a lot more knowledgably than I could. And a lot of other things. Hey! Scott! Help! Chris Hornbeck |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:10:39 -0700, Bob Cain wrote: What will the phantom resistors contribute? That's a very good point. Since the phantom resistors will be passing about 6mA each, they'll need to be up to snuff, and well matched. Matching is a big deal, but if the front end isn't matched for good CMRR, it's not worth matching the resistors any better. How good are those dual FETs matched for anyway? Noise contribution will be minimal, since the resistor value (plus the supply impedance) is still far more than the input impedance of the source. So it might be noisy without a mike plugged in, but once the mike is plugged in, the source impedance will swamp it. The thermal noise contribution of the total parallel load resistance (phantom r's in series, preamp input, and any shunt gain-set resistor in our project, all in parallel) increases with the square root of resistance. But gain, and therefor signal, increases linearly. So we should go for as high a gain as practical for lowest noise. Maybe, but how much gain do you really want? That's sort of the question. I'll take better linearity over more gain any time. Using the 40mA/V FET's, effectively in series for transconductance here, means a gain of R-sub-Total Load divided by 50 ohms. A typical(?) load of 1000 ohms means a gain of 26dB. A little more would be nice, but tough to get. How well are those FETs matched? The 20mA/V duals would only be 20dB gain. Maybe enough; I don't know how to guesstimate it. Since you're running the thing into a preamp already, this thing would really only be a pre-preamp anyway. 20 dB of gain should be plenty, right? Is Scott Dorsey around? He could address that a lot more knowledgably than I could. And a lot of other things. Hey! Scott! Help! FET inputs will give you necessarily higher impedance than a bipolar array, and therefore more noise since there is poorer power transfer. But it might well be enough, and you really don't have the current to do it with bipolars easily and still use phantom. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grandpiano at home
Bob Cain wrote:
Go for it. Can you give it 20 dB of variable gain and about -140 dBu EIN? Yes, that would be wonderful, but it just a teensy bit unlikely, as--under most assumptions about b/width and impedance--it's way below the Johnson noise. Or is this XLR-shell preamp in liquid nitrogen? James Boyk |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
"Kelly" wrote in message
... (Mike Clayton) wrote in message ... ... What type of music? Got a good sounding room and piano? Got good preamps? I'll be recording classical music on a 1908 Steinway model O ( 5'10" ). I've replaced the strings and hammers, so the piano sounds good. I suppose that the room sounds ok, but we may be replacing the carpet with laminate "hardwood" floors, so I guess that will change everything. As far as preamps, I was just planning on running the mikes into my Mackie 1202 mixer and using the preamps in it. Ouch. Don't use those pres. Get yourself something better. Look on ebay and try to buy a used Manley dual mic pre or something decent. No sense in getting a nice piano going into a nice set of mics going into a crappy set of pres. Steve Holt INNER MUSIC Music Creation & Production http://www.inner-music.com http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:10:39 -0700, Bob Cain
wrote: clipped Hi Bob, Would you like to try a beta prototype of the project and give comments? No blame will attach to you if this thing fails miserably (but it's all your fault!).Arf. If willing, email me a USPS address and I'll work on it this weekend. Thanks, Chris Hornbeck |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grandpiano at home
Scott Dorsey wrote: Maybe, but how much gain do you really want? That's sort of the question. I'll take better linearity over more gain any time. Me too. Since you're running the thing into a preamp already, this thing would really only be a pre-preamp anyway. 20 dB of gain should be plenty, right? Yes, AFAIAC. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
James Boyk wrote:
LeBaron & Alrich wrote: Don't know about the Mackie + Coles action, but with Beyer M260's and M160's it's not a pretty thing. If memory serves, the M260 sensitivity is about that of the B&O 200. The Coles is perhaps 10 dB hotter. That would make a significant difference, for the better. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand piano at home
Paul and Chris,
6 mA is pushing the limits of what's available from the phantom power supplies of many preamps, unfortunately. Could I suggest exposing a test point on the circuit board so that users can check the operating voltage that you're getting, in case of doubt? --best regards |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grand
Bob Cain wrote: Go for it. Can you give it 20 dB of variable gain and about -140 dBu EIN? Yes, that would be wonderful, but it just a teensy bit unlikely, as--under most assumptions about b/width and impedance--it's way below the Johnson noise. Or is this XLR-shell preamp in liquid nitrogen? James Boyk Or the marketing Department at Earthworks -140dBV@40dB Gain http://www.earthwks.com/ns/preamps.html Richard H. Kuschel "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Small vs. large diaphragm condenser mikes for recording grandpiano at home | Pro Audio |