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#1
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the
primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Stevie D wrote: I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. It's supposed to open before the winding and insulation temperatures exceed a safe level. Since 130C is an extra specially high option, yes you're way high. Oh it's Fahrenheit. Convert it yourself. I can't be bothered with retarded US only units. Get METRIC ! 105C is more normal as a safe materials temp but the switch has to be in a 'hot spot', so a lower temp may be used in practice to compensate.. Graham |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Eeyore wrote:
Stevie D wrote: I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. It's supposed to open before the winding and insulation temperatures exceed a safe level. Since 130C is an extra specially high option, yes you're way high. Oh it's Fahrenheit. Convert it yourself. I can't be bothered with retarded US only units. Get METRIC ! 105C is more normal as a safe materials temp but the switch has to be in a 'hot spot', so a lower temp may be used in practice to compensate.. Graham what a pompous ass. anything of value that you add is completely nulled by your attitude. plonk. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Diogenes wrote: Eeyore wrote: Stevie D wrote: I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. It's supposed to open before the winding and insulation temperatures exceed a safe level. Since 130C is an extra specially high option, yes you're way high. Oh it's Fahrenheit. Convert it yourself. I can't be bothered with retarded US only units. Get METRIC ! 105C is more normal as a safe materials temp but the switch has to be in a 'hot spot', so a lower temp may be used in practice to compensate.. what a pompous ass. anything of value that you add is completely nulled by your attitude. plonk. Why do bloody Americans have to use units no-one ekse in the world does ? Go **** yourself ! Fahrenheit ! LMAO. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Soundhaspriority wrote: "Stevie D" wrote I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve You partially unwound the transformer? I don't understand the rationale for thermal fuses in transformer primaries. To stop them catching fire. Going back afew years, I don't recall they were used at all. Yamaha preamps transitioned from a design which used discrete external fuses to one that used the internal fuse. Is there anyone who can supply a detailed argument why the thermal fuse could not be omitted, replaced instead by a close-value external fuse? Slightly complicated story w.r.t. power amps. I don't have time right now. It seems to me the purpose may have been to avoid the occasional spontaneous fuse blow, but when the internal one goes, what a mess it is! What I did was to fit 'logic level' auto-resetting thermal switches in some amps' transformers which simply muted the audio until they cooled down. Nothing to replace. Graham |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:22:35 +0000, Eeyore wrote: Why do bloody Americans have to use units no-one ekse in the world does ? Because they want to see some nice fireworks when their silly space shuttle explodes. ....as opposed to the rest of the world who doesn't have anything operating that is even close to a space shuttle, and all but one of them never even ever tried. This is like me making fun of my neighbor because his Ferrari has a flat tire. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message ... "Stevie D" wrote in message ... I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve You partially unwound the transformer? I don't understand the rationale for thermal fuses in transformer primaries. Going back afew years, I don't recall they were used at all. Yamaha preamps transitioned from a design which used discrete external fuses to one that used the internal fuse. Is there anyone who can supply a detailed argument why the thermal fuse could not be omitted, replaced instead by a close-value external fuse? It seems to me the purpose may have been to avoid the occasional spontaneous fuse blow, but when the internal one goes, what a mess it is! **[True story] ---- Many years ago (ca. 1985), I sold a range of audio equipment, from a range of manufacturers, including Sansui. I refused to sell some of the Sansui products, because I did not like the construction, which consisted of plastic side pieces and a pressboard baseplate. The power transformer was mounted within 1cm of the plastic side cheeks. Typical models included: A700, A900, B77, et al. I did sell the AUD series, due to their high quality construction and advanced topology. A mate called into my store one day and asked for me. I wasn't available, so he travelled to another store. The other store sold him some of the Sansui stuff, I refused to sell. A couple of years later I ran into him at a function. I asked him how he was going with his house rebuilding. He said that things were progressing. I asked if the investigators had worked out what had caused the fire that burned his house down. He said that it was the stereo amplifier that did it. ---- It was not uncommon back then (ca. 1985) for repairers to short out the thermal fuse, after it had failed (which it did with huge numbers of cheap Sansui amps, due to the high operating temps of the transformers - partly due to the poor quality of the transformers and partly due to poor ventilation, due the pressboard baseplates). Moral: Always replace the thermal fuse with another, similar thermal fuse. Further and for the record: So cheap and crappy were this range of amplifiers, that Sansui employed *no* current limiters in many of the models in their cheap range. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:02:24 -0500, "Soundhaspriority"
wrote: I don't understand the rationale for thermal fuses in transformer primaries. Going back afew years, I don't recall they were used at all. Yamaha preamps transitioned from a design which used discrete external fuses to one that used the internal fuse. Is there anyone who can supply a detailed argument why the thermal fuse could not be omitted, replaced instead by a close-value external fuse? It seems to me the purpose may have been to avoid the occasional spontaneous fuse blow, but when the internal one goes, what a mess it is! It's almost certainly a defacto requirement for UL type approval. For the manufacturer, an internal thermal fuse adds a very large warranty repair cost (a whole power transformer) to any of gazillions of possible electronic failures, so would be avoided if it were possible to do so. Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Chris Hornbeck wrote: "Soundhaspriority" wrote: I don't understand the rationale for thermal fuses in transformer primaries. Going back afew years, I don't recall they were used at all. Yamaha preamps transitioned from a design which used discrete external fuses to one that used the internal fuse. Is there anyone who can supply a detailed argument why the thermal fuse could not be omitted, replaced instead by a close-value external fuse? It seems to me the purpose may have been to avoid the occasional spontaneous fuse blow, but when the internal one goes, what a mess it is! It's almost certainly a defacto requirement for UL type approval. UL doesn't count much any more. Except in ONE country. Apply the tests in IEC60950 and you'll understand. For the manufacturer, an internal thermal fuse adds a very large warranty repair cost (a whole power transformer) to any of gazillions of possible electronic failures, so would be avoided if it were possible to do so. They do it because doing it better is more expensive. One cost more than cancels the other. Graham |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
In article , Stevie D wrote:
I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve Just bypass it. If it overheated correct the possible problem by installing a fan. You can still use a thermal fuse. Its unknown why they melted, but probably from hitting them too hard. Most transformers opperate and you are able to touch them, so use a fuse no higher than 130 degrees, thats on the outside of the case. Your not going to be able to get inside the windings very far. I don't know todays standards. Does every transformer require a fuse, or only those underdesigned. greg |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
GregS wrote: Stevie D wrote: I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve Just bypass it. If it overheated correct the possible problem by installing a fan. You can still use a thermal fuse. Its unknown why they melted, but probably from hitting them too hard. Most transformers opperate and you are able to touch them, so use a fuse no higher than 130 degrees, thats on the outside of the case. Your not going to be able to get inside the windings very far. I don't know todays standards. Does every transformer require a fuse, or only those underdesigned. Every transformer needs to be protected from a short on the output. Small transformers may have such high DC winding resistance that differentiating between a shorted output and normal operation (especially switch-on surge) is very difficult, so using a 'normal fuse' is tricky. Hence the thermal fuse. Graham |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , Stevie D wrote: I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve Just bypass it. If it overheated correct the possible problem by installing a fan. You can still use a thermal fuse. Its unknown why they melted, but probably from hitting them too hard. Most transformers opperate and you are able to touch them, so use a fuse no higher than 130 degrees, thats on the outside of the case. Your not going to be able to get inside the windings very far. I don't know todays standards. Does every transformer require a fuse, or only those underdesigned. **Read my earlier post. Lazy techs who bypass protection systems can cause serious damage to not only the equipment concerned. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:21:01 GMT, (GregS)
wrote: Just bypass it. Please, please don't do this. Thank you, Chris Hornbeck |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Chris Hornbeck wrote: (GregS) wrote: Just bypass it. Please, please don't do this. I dunno. Some people enjoy fires ! Graham |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
"Stevie D" wrote ...
I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve So, install the 171 and stress-test the system to see if it will hold. If it gets too hot and cuts out, put in the 189. If that one also gets too hot and cuts out, then the problem might be with the transformer and not with the thermal fuses. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Richard Crowley wrote: "Stevie D" wrote ... I've a question as to which value 'fuse' to use in series with the primary winding of this Technics amplifier of which the original one opened-up. I bought two today and will wait to hear from this group before I proceed. I've purchased a 171 degrees f and a 189 degrees f . I suspect I might be a little off maybe, maybe too high??? I cannot remove the original one to verify. Any help is appreciated, thank-you. Cheers, Steve So, install the 171 and stress-test the system to see if it will hold. If it gets too hot and cuts out, put in the 189. If that one also gets too hot and cuts out, then the problem might be with the transformer and not with the thermal fuses. Or the PRODUCT ! Graham |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
On Nov 24, 7:10*pm, Chris Hornbeck
wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:21:01 GMT, (GregS) wrote: Just bypass it. Please, please don't do this. Thank you, Chris Hornbeck Thanks all for the advise. Here's what I've done; replaced with the 171 degrees f thermal fuse, let it sit, turned on with volume at zero and waited... It took a few hours, then I touched the transformer, it was hot to the touch, hot enough to worry me. I turned the receiver off and waited two hours. The xfmr was still warm. Under "power on" condition, it was almost unbearable to keep my hand on it, this is my litmus test, and I considered it a fail! The fuse held up but my customer is not getting this back until I undo my repair and recommend he buy a new one. Cheers |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
In article , "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:02:24 -0500, "Soundhaspriority" wrote: I don't understand the rationale for thermal fuses in transformer primaries. Going back afew years, I don't recall they were used at all. Yamaha preamps transitioned from a design which used discrete external fuses to one that used the internal fuse. Is there anyone who can supply a detailed argument why the thermal fuse could not be omitted, replaced instead by a close-value external fuse? It seems to me the purpose may have been to avoid the occasional spontaneous fuse blow, but when the internal one goes, what a mess it is! It's almost certainly a defacto requirement for UL type approval. For the manufacturer, an internal thermal fuse adds a very large warranty repair cost (a whole power transformer) to any of gazillions of possible electronic failures, so would be avoided if it were possible to do so. You may be right, but I wonder if there are other factors involved as well? What if the transformer is enclosed in metal? What if the transformer metal can sink enough power such that it could not reach sustained ignition with a proper slow-blo fuse in place? It seems to me this was the strategy in older equipment. Does anyone know when thermal fuses came in? The earliest piece of equipment I have seen that was junked because of thermal fuse failure was a Yamaha C-70 preamp. I have several of these; the one that failed had no fuse external to the power transformer. The others did. If equipment has an on/off switch it certainly should have a fuse. I would have thought these modern amplifiers that can't drive 4 ohms should certaily have a thermal fuse. greg |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Stevie D wrote: Chris Hornbeck wrote: (GregS) wrote: Just bypass it. Please, please don't do this. Thanks all for the advise. Here's what I've done; replaced with the 171 degrees f thermal fuse, let it sit, turned on with volume at zero and waited... It took a few hours, then I touched the transformer, it was hot to the touch, hot enough to worry me. I turned the receiver off and waited two hours. The xfmr was still warm. Under "power on" condition, it was almost unbearable to keep my hand on it, this is my litmus test, and I considered it a fail! The fuse held up but my customer is not getting this back until I undo my repair and recommend he buy a new one. Sounds like a shorted turn to me. Graham |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
GregS wrote: If equipment has an on/off switch it certainly should have a fuse. Not a requirement (for a replaceable fuse) at all. Merely enough protection to prevent fire hazard. Graham |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
In article , Eeyore wrote:
GregS wrote: If equipment has an on/off switch it certainly should have a fuse. Not a requirement (for a replaceable fuse) at all. Merely enough protection to prevent fire hazard. Graham My feeling, switches frequently go bad, fall apart, and touch chassis and sparks, and, or shock. The fuse can't protect for shock though. There are wires which usually can't handle full outlet power after entering the equipment, plus the line cord often is only 18 gauge. Thats why you need a fuse. But my Christmas tree lights and a lot of other things don't seem to have a fuse. greg |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
GregS wrote: Eeyore wrote: GregS wrote: If equipment has an on/off switch it certainly should have a fuse. Not a requirement (for a replaceable fuse) at all. Merely enough protection to prevent fire hazard. My feeling, switches frequently go bad, fall apart, and touch chassis and sparks, and, or shock. In which case they are unapproved for mains use. The fuse can't protect for shock though. It's not meant to. There are wires which usually can't handle full outlet power after entering the equipment, plus the line cord often is only 18 gauge. Thats why you need a fuse. To protect the cable. Correct. A little known fact. But my Christmas tree lights and a lot of other things don't seem to have a fuse. In the UK we uniquely have a fuse inside the AC wall plug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363 The fuse can be selected to suit the cable rating. One of many reasons why electrical fires are virtually unknown here. Graham |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
"Stevie D" wrote in message ... On Nov 24, 7:10 pm, Chris Hornbeck wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:21:01 GMT, (GregS) wrote: Just bypass it. Please, please don't do this. Thank you, Chris Hornbeck Thanks all for the advise. Here's what I've done; replaced with the 171 degrees f thermal fuse, let it sit, turned on with volume at zero and waited... It took a few hours, then I touched the transformer, it was hot to the touch, hot enough to worry me. I turned the receiver off and waited two hours. The xfmr was still warm. Under "power on" condition, it was almost unbearable to keep my hand on it, this is my litmus test, and I considered it a fail! The fuse held up but my customer is not getting this back until I undo my repair and recommend he buy a new one. Cheers If it's getting that hot just sitting there turned on, it has some other problem. A shorted diode in the power supply area for example. A voltage regulator could be sitting there happily putting out 12 volts DC even with a large AC component going in. You might never hear it or trigger the protection circuit, but the transformer would get hot like that. Actually had this happen once, in fact. Mark Z. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Eeyore writes:
But my Christmas tree lights and a lot of other things don't seem to have a fuse. In the UK we uniquely have a fuse inside the AC wall plug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363 The fuse can be selected to suit the cable rating. One of many reasons why electrical fires are virtually unknown here. Ring circuits are commonly used in British wiring with fused 13 A plugs to BS 1363. They are generally wired with 2.5 mm² cable and protected by a 30 A fuse, an older 30 A circuit breaker, or a European harmonised 32 A circuit breaker. When such high current main ring circuits are used , it is definately necessary to have a smaller size fuze on the mains plug (sized to prptect the plug wire). If 30A or more gets directly to thin wire it will definatly start to melt soon... In other part of Europe the mains outlets are normally fused with 10A or 16A fuses (maybe 6A on some very old systems). The thickness of the mains cable on the equipment is sized so that in can safely carry the equipment normal operating current plus that a short circuit on that cable will burn the 16A fuse long before the wire insulation starts to melt. The fuse or other protection in equipment will make sure that the constant current flow equipment can take on cable will not exceed the wire constant current flow rating. So equipment fusing protects against constant overload possibility and wire is thick enough to burn fuse quickly on short circuit without too much damage. The equipment cables have normally thickness of 0.75mm^2 to 1.5mm^2 on normal equipment plugged to 10A or 16A outlets (there are some special exceptions where even thinner cable is allowed). Electrical fires are also quite rare where I live (I live in Finland). -- Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/) Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at http://www.epanorama.net/ |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
In article , "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote:
"Stevie D" wrote in message ... On Nov 24, 7:10 pm, Chris Hornbeck wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:21:01 GMT, (GregS) wrote: Just bypass it. Please, please don't do this. Thank you, Chris Hornbeck Thanks all for the advise. Here's what I've done; replaced with the 171 degrees f thermal fuse, let it sit, turned on with volume at zero and waited... It took a few hours, then I touched the transformer, it was hot to the touch, hot enough to worry me. I turned the receiver off and waited two hours. The xfmr was still warm. Under "power on" condition, it was almost unbearable to keep my hand on it, this is my litmus test, and I considered it a fail! The fuse held up but my customer is not getting this back until I undo my repair and recommend he buy a new one. Cheers If it's getting that hot just sitting there turned on, it has some other problem. A shorted diode in the power supply area for example. A voltage regulator could be sitting there happily putting out 12 volts DC even with a large AC component going in. You might never hear it or trigger the protection circuit, but the transformer would get hot like that. Actually had this happen once, in fact. Mark Z. I have seen bad transformers with high loss such as a shorted turn. When the transformer overheated the short may have appeared or it may have just decided to short for no other reason. greg |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , Eeyore wrote: GregS wrote: If equipment has an on/off switch it certainly should have a fuse. Not a requirement (for a replaceable fuse) at all. Merely enough protection to prevent fire hazard. Graham My feeling, switches frequently go bad, fall apart, and touch chassis and sparks, and, or shock. The fuse can't protect for shock though. There are wires which usually can't handle full outlet power after entering the equipment, plus the line cord often is only 18 gauge. Thats why you need a fuse. **No. That is why you need either an Earthed chassis, or double insulation. One of these is mandatory over most of the planet. But my Christmas tree lights and a lot of other things don't seem to have a fuse. **And they would need to be double insulated in most nations. You must have very old Christmas tree lights. Perhaps such dangerous products are still legally available in the US. I've not seen anything but low Voltage types for many years. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Thermal Fuse, Transformer
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , Eeyore wrote: GregS wrote: If equipment has an on/off switch it certainly should have a fuse. Not a requirement (for a replaceable fuse) at all. Merely enough protection to prevent fire hazard. Graham My feeling, switches frequently go bad, fall apart, and touch chassis and sparks, and, or shock. The fuse can't protect for shock though. There are wires which usually can't handle full outlet power after entering the equipment, plus the line cord often is only 18 gauge. Thats why you need a fuse. **No. That is why you need either an Earthed chassis, or double insulation. One of these is mandatory over most of the planet. But my Christmas tree lights and a lot of other things don't seem to have a fuse. **And they would need to be double insulated in most nations. You must have very old Christmas tree lights. Perhaps such dangerous products are still legally available in the US. I've not seen anything but low Voltage types for many years. Some older Christmas tree lights used to have a replaceable fuse in the plug. I'd expect more modern ones to have a non-replaceable fuse, since if they ever short out you'd probably just pitch them. Jerry |
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