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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Following the latest discussions about converters, I seem to enter this
state of slight confusion. From other discussions here and elsewhere, it's evident PT has quite a marketshare, and many says at some point one will most likely have to exchange project files, so PT is the way to go. However, I see so many references to mid/high-end converters, having their own interfaces and drivers. AFAIK, those don't work with PT - except when hooked through lightpipes. So, quite a lot of studiowork must be done with DAW's other than PT. I'm quite aware several highend console/software solutions exists, for which some of said interfaces probably has drivers. Still, it's my understanding that quite a lot of you folks here aren't using such setups, but rather one of the 6-8 widely used DAW packages. This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. I'm sure a nof rookies like me lurking here would like to know. I'm dying to know what's actually being used, and for what. I hope it's not beyond the scope in here to suggest a short poll. If it isn't, I suggest cutting away above splash text. Pro/SemiPro/Home: Work (music/broadcast..): DAW: Platform (PC/Mac): A/D/A: Interface: Console: -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. The 'industry standard' for data interchange is WAV or AIFF files. What DAW you use does not matter so long as it can handle these. Ian |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
So, quite a lot of studiowork must be done with DAW's other than PT. I have some Macs, a Metric Halo MIO2882+DSP, Wave L2 (hardware), Logic Pro 6.4.3, Waveburner Pro 2.something (OS9), Peak LE, MH SpectraFoo Complete, MH Channelstrip, and a small collection of outboard, including some near-ultimate analog plug-ins from Studer. I get projects from PT, mostly for overdubbing, as WAV or AIFF files. If for mixing it all happens here so what's upstream in the way of processing is either irrelevant or has alraedy been imposed on the files sent me. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Apr 1, 11:46 am, "Mogens V."
wrote: From other discussions here and elsewhere, it's evident PT has quite a marketshare, and many says at some point one will most likely have to exchange project files, so PT is the way to go. First off, the obvious. The individual musician who records himself (or his band) and doesn't pass the project around from studio to studio or engineer can use whatever program he wants without concern about compatibility. While most DAWs can export broadcast wave files (if they don't normally save audio in that format), every DAW has its own format, language, and algorithms in the "project" file that defines mix levels, equalization and other processing, edits and fades, plug-in management, and version history. While you can import the broadcast wave from nearly any DAW into any other DAW, a new project file must be crated, and with just a few exceptions, everything in the original project file is lost. So if you're the primary engineer for the band and the guitar player wants to record all of his solos at home, it would be a good idea for both of you to use the same program so you can exchange the whole project and when he plays his solos, he'll automatically hear the same mix at home as he did in the main session. And since ProTools is so common and, as a basic system, so inexpensive, it's a popular choice. However, I see so many references to mid/high-end converters, having their own interfaces and drivers. AFAIK, those don't work with PT - except when hooked through lightpipes. That's the the lock that Digidesign has on their customers. Everything that goes into and comes out of a ProTools project has to go through their own driver model, which they license to only a very few converter manufacturers, like M-Audio (which is in itself owned by the same company as Digidesign). At least Digidesign and M-Audio make interfaces with digital inputs and outputs so you can connect a a high end converter through that I/O route. I'm quite aware several highend console/software solutions exists, for which some of said interfaces probably has drivers. Not for ProTools. But just about every other DAW program can use the Apple standard audio interface (Core Audio I think it's called these days) or on the PC side, WDM or ASIO drivers. Still, the issue of interchangeability of project data exists. It's just that if you and your buddy both use, say, Cubase, you don't need the same hardware. This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... It depends on how the work is shared. For example, in the case where the guitarist wants to record solos at home, the "mothership" studio can give him a stereo mix that he can import into his own DAW as a new project, record his solos, make all the punch-ins and edits necessary to get it right,, and then save his work as a "consolidated" or "rendered" or "flattened" (the terminology varies among programs) audio file. This can then be imported back into the "master" project and used in the mix. If it's a major label kind of project (whether it's for a real major label or not) where the project might go to several different studios where parts are added, and yet a different studio for final mixdown, there's a real advantage to everyone using the same DAW program (and this is where ProTools seems to be the program of choice) so everyone hears the project in the same mix context, and the project remains intact throughout the whole process - nobody has to put all the little pieces from here and there together before mixing. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
However, I see so many references to mid/high-end converters, having their own interfaces and drivers. AFAIK, those don't work with PT - except when hooked through lightpipes. Right, but what's wrong with that? That's how most converters are hooked to tape machines and to workstations.... lightpipe, MADI, or T-DIF. This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. People today mostly interchange digital files on discs. Although you STILL will see someone dubbing to 2" for interchange every once in a while. For the most part, you can interchange simple audio files transparently between any DAWs, although it can be a mightmare to interchange complete project files. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mogens V. wrote: However, I see so many references to mid/high-end converters, having their own interfaces and drivers. AFAIK, those don't work with PT - except when hooked through lightpipes. Right, but what's wrong with that? That's how most converters are hooked to tape machines and to workstations.... lightpipe, MADI, or T-DIF. Oh, I don't nessesarily mean anything's wrong with that, except for the annoyance of vendor lock-in, at least when being a start up on a budget. I'm also aware that maybe a more limited HW selection with fewer drivers _may_ yield a more stable, less error prone setup. _may_ -I dunno... What I meant was simply that I see these refs to hardware unsupported with PT, which seems so predominant, so I wondered what's being used. -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mike Rivers wrote:
On Apr 1, 11:46 am, "Mogens V." wrote: From other discussions here and elsewhere, it's evident PT has quite a marketshare, and many says at some point one will most likely have to exchange project files, so PT is the way to go. First off, the obvious. The individual musician who records himself (or his band) and doesn't pass the project around from studio to studio or engineer can use whatever program he wants without concern about compatibility. While most DAWs can export broadcast wave files (if they don't normally save audio in that format), every DAW has its own format, language, and algorithms in the "project" file that defines mix levels, equalization and other processing, edits and fades, plug-in management, and version history. While you can import the broadcast wave from nearly any DAW into any other DAW, a new project file must be crated, and with just a few exceptions, everything in the original project file is lost. So if you're the primary engineer for the band and the guitar player wants to record all of his solos at home, it would be a good idea for both of you to use the same program so you can exchange the whole project and when he plays his solos, he'll automatically hear the same mix at home as he did in the main session. And since ProTools is so common and, as a basic system, so inexpensive, it's a popular choice. ...snipped.. This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... It depends on how the work is shared. For example, in the case where the guitarist wants to record solos at home, the "mothership" studio can give him a stereo mix that he can import into his own DAW as a new project, record his solos, make all the punch-ins and edits necessary to get it right,, and then save his work as a "consolidated" or "rendered" or "flattened" (the terminology varies among programs) audio file. This can then be imported back into the "master" project and used in the mix. If it's a major label kind of project (whether it's for a real major label or not) where the project might go to several different studios where parts are added, and yet a different studio for final mixdown, there's a real advantage to everyone using the same DAW program (and this is where ProTools seems to be the program of choice) so everyone hears the project in the same mix context, and the project remains intact throughout the whole process - nobody has to put all the little pieces from here and there together before mixing. So, two scenarios exists: 1. As I'll be both the player and recording engineer (wannebe), I can use just about what I want, as long as I do it all myself. Should I be lucky enough to shake hands with a label , I can hand them the finished wav/aiff files for mixdown, as they'll setup the project to their own likings and marketing stragety anyways. 2. Working off my appartment, I will at some point have to work with a (semi)Pro studio for at least some acoustic recordings. I believe PT has an 80-85% market share here in DK, so I may be better off choosing PT for ease of dragging project disks back and forth. -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Ian Bell wrote:
Mogens V. wrote: This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. The 'industry standard' for data interchange is WAV or AIFF files. What DAW you use does not matter so long as it can handle these. Yes, I realise that, though it's my understanding some engineers don't like having to setup a project based on those formats. -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
hank alrich wrote:
Mogens V. wrote: So, quite a lot of studiowork must be done with DAW's other than PT. I have some Macs, a Metric Halo MIO2882+DSP, Wave L2 (hardware), Logic Pro 6.4.3, Waveburner Pro 2.something (OS9), Peak LE, MH SpectraFoo Complete, MH Channelstrip, and a small collection of outboard, including some near-ultimate analog plug-ins from Studer. I get projects from PT, mostly for overdubbing, as WAV or AIFF files. If for mixing it all happens here so what's upstream in the way of processing is either irrelevant or has alraedy been imposed on the files sent me. So, IIUC, the reason whatever DAW was used to create a project doesn't matter to you, is that you don't work back'n'forth on projects, right? -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: Mogens V. wrote: However, I see so many references to mid/high-end converters, having their own interfaces and drivers. AFAIK, those don't work with PT - except when hooked through lightpipes. Right, but what's wrong with that? That's how most converters are hooked to tape machines and to workstations.... lightpipe, MADI, or T-DIF. Oh, I don't nessesarily mean anything's wrong with that, except for the annoyance of vendor lock-in, at least when being a start up on a budget. What lock-in? Lightpipe, MADI, and T-DIF are all standards. You can start out with a cheap RME converter with a lightpipe connection to the machine, then upgrade to an Apogee and then to a Prism or a Meitner without any changes to the DAW or the software on the DAW. I'm also aware that maybe a more limited HW selection with fewer drivers _may_ yield a more stable, less error prone setup. _may_ -I dunno... These are standard interfaces. They don't require any drivers other than whatever the card itself uses. What I meant was simply that I see these refs to hardware unsupported with PT, which seems so predominant, so I wondered what's being used. It doesn't matter, the interface is supported so you can plug anything you want to into it. Including converters that haven't been invented yet or digital tape machines that haven't been made for a decade. And they all interoperate. That is the reason for communication standards. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Apr 1, 8:12 pm, "Mogens V."
wrote: Should I be lucky enough to shake hands with a label , I can hand them the finished wav/aiff files for mixdown, as they'll setup the project to their own likings and marketing stragety anyways. No, you'll hand them your mixed stereo file. They may want you to add some songs or delete some songs, and maybe change the order. Or if they don't think it sounds good enough they'll get you into a studio to re-record it. But it's not likely that they'll want to remix your tracks (though they may ask you to do it). But you won't be getting any major label deals on your first project anyway other than if they like it as a demo and decide to 'develop' you. 2. Working off my appartment, I will at some point have to work with a (semi)Pro studio for at least some acoustic recordings. I believe PT has an 80-85% market share here in DK, so I may be better off choosing PT for ease of dragging project disks back and forth. Definitely. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
Ian Bell wrote: Mogens V. wrote: This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. The 'industry standard' for data interchange is WAV or AIFF files. What DAW you use does not matter so long as it can handle these. Yes, I realise that, though it's my understanding some engineers don't like having to setup a project based on those formats. The only reason why it should be a problem to the guy is if he doesn't know what he's doing. In that case, run like hell. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
2. Working off my appartment, I will at some point have to work with a (semi)Pro studio for at least some acoustic recordings. I believe PT has an 80-85% market share here in DK, so I may be better off choosing PT for ease of dragging project disks back and forth. Don't let Digi bulldoze you. You can use any app you like, and with a minimum of effort transfer it to PT if the studio you choose has the misfortune to be locked into it exclusively. geoff |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
Ian Bell wrote: Mogens V. wrote: This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. The 'industry standard' for data interchange is WAV or AIFF files. What DAW you use does not matter so long as it can handle these. Yes, I realise that, though it's my understanding some engineers don't like having to setup a project based on those formats. Choose a different engineer then. geoff |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
Ian Bell wrote: Mogens V. wrote: This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. The 'industry standard' for data interchange is WAV or AIFF files. What DAW you use does not matter so long as it can handle these. Yes, I realise that, though it's my understanding some engineers don't like having to setup a project based on those formats. Then I think someone is using the term "engineer" all too loosely. The task is trivial. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
hank alrich wrote: Mogens V. wrote: So, quite a lot of studiowork must be done with DAW's other than PT. I have some Macs, a Metric Halo MIO2882+DSP, Wave L2 (hardware), Logic Pro 6.4.3, Waveburner Pro 2.something (OS9), Peak LE, MH SpectraFoo Complete, MH Channelstrip, and a small collection of outboard, including some near-ultimate analog plug-ins from Studer. I get projects from PT, mostly for overdubbing, as WAV or AIFF files. If for mixing it all happens here so what's upstream in the way of processing is either irrelevant or has alraedy been imposed on the files sent me. So, IIUC, the reason whatever DAW was used to create a project doesn't matter to you, is that you don't work back'n'forth on projects, right? Yes, I do work "back and forth projects", using any of several audio file formats. What I do not do is receive big PT mixes-in-progress that would require me to have the exact same rig including version numbers and specific plugs in order to continue the mix from the point it was abandoned g. I get a set of files. I create a Logic document for the session. I load the files. We do the session, or I start mixing. If overdubs are the ride, then I send back a set of files that includes the overdubs. If mixing I mix until I'm done and I send off a finished mix. And this is not peculiar to Logic. One can do this with any DAW. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:46:10 -0400, Mogens V. wrote
(in article ) : If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... I get project to mix on my PTLE rig from all sorts of other DAWs. All we do is consolidate each track from 0:00:00 to the end and export and burn to DVD-R or CD-R. In PT and PTLE, you don't even need to create tracks, you just choose "import to track" hit the button and go take a leak while the session loads up. EQ settings and effects are scraped off, but that's usually part of why they are hiring me. There are some folks who use OMF. I haven't needed to do that yet. Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 13:07:42 -0400, Ian Bell wrote
(in article 460fe61c.0@entanet): Mogens V. wrote: This is what gets me confused. If PT is kinda the mother of all, how on earth do you work with clients, other studios, downmix facilities... Of cause I realize some of you handle it all, including the downmix. The 'industry standard' for data interchange is WAV or AIFF files. What DAW you use does not matter so long as it can handle these. Ian and not so much about aiff anymore. Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 21:59:39 -0400, Geoff wrote
(in article ): Mogens V. wrote: 2. Working off my appartment, I will at some point have to work with a (semi)Pro studio for at least some acoustic recordings. I believe PT has an 80-85% market share here in DK, so I may be better off choosing PT for ease of dragging project disks back and forth. Don't let Digi bulldoze you. You can use any app you like, and with a minimum of effort transfer it to PT if the studio you choose has the misfortune to be locked into it exclusively. geoff Them bulldozers are only in Geoff's head. Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
"Mogens V." wrote in message . dk... : : Yes, I realise that, though it's my understanding some engineers don't : like having to setup a project based on those formats. : : -- : Kind regards, : Mogens V. : You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. So you put your files in Wave format and start and end every track at the same time regardless of how much sound is in the track. Doing this anyone can load your tracks and everyone looses all your presets and automation. If the other guy has a close clone to your daw perhaps on a really lucky day you could put your project into another persons machine and get it to load up exactly as it was when you saved it from your machine. This is why most people who need their project to come up at another studio will bring their machine into the other studio. peace dawg |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Apr 2, 9:48 am, "Deputy Dumbya Dawg"
wrote: You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. I was just about to ask about this when you brought it up. (everyone needs a straight man now and then) My recommendation to people who know they're going to be passing a project back and forth is to use the same DAW program because the project file (whatever it's called in ProToos) could be used by both systems. However, realizing that while both systems might have the same program, even the same version, there could be plug-ins loaded (and used in a mix) on one system that aren't on the other system. Also, I/ O hardware might be different. I would expect that things common to all systems would be preserved like standard EQ and dynamics, edits, mutes, and fades. I would be disappointed if this wasn't the case. But if the project was initiated in a studio equiped with 24 outputs and the session was initially set up with eight of those outputs used as four independent stereo headphone mixes, two more going to outboard reverbs (with similarly configured return channels) and other goodies like that, what happens when the guitar player takes home a complete copy of the session to run on his M-Box system with only two inputs and outputs? Is it smart enough to leave those either unassigned or assigned to non- existent outputs (to preserve the session for when it goes back to the original studio)? Or - horror of horrors - does it try to do the best it can, assuming that you want to hear those tracks, and double-assign them to the two outputs that are present in the hardware? While it's not a big deal to consolidate tracks, export them on one end, and import them on the other end, if that isn't done, then you lose any edits, mix moves, EQ, and processing. So when the person imports the "straight" files and starts working on his overdubs, he isn't hearing what he heard in the studio, and may end up playing parts that don't fit well when brought in to mix with the original tracks. |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Is it smart enough to leave those either unassigned or assigned to non- existent outputs (to preserve the session for when it goes back to the original studio)? Or - horror of horrors - does it try to do the best it can, assuming that you want to hear those tracks, and double-assign them to the two outputs that are present in the hardware? While it's not a big deal to consolidate tracks, export them on one end, and import them on the other end, if that isn't done, then you lose any edits, mix moves, EQ, and processing. So when the person imports the "straight" files and starts working on his overdubs, he isn't hearing what he heard in the studio, and may end up playing parts that don't fit well when brought in to mix with the original tracks. Happens with tape machines all the time. The best way to think about it is that the harddrive is like a reel of tape. Don't expect any settings mix-wise to translate at all. You don't actually have to create the "straight files", if you use broadcast waves as your record format the timestamping on the file takes care of it's position with the other files. In Nuendo, I would select "insert into project at origin" and we're off to the races... |
#23
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Apr 2, 11:19 am, Romeo Rondeau wrote:
The best way to think about it is that the harddrive is like a reel of tape. Don't expect any settings mix-wise to translate at all. Well what the hell good is that? I would expect that if I had ProTools and you had Nuendo. However,if we both had Nuendo (or ProTools) I would expect that, at least to the extent of the program's basic functions (edits, levels, mutes, and EQ and dynamics that isn't a separately purchased plug-in), moving the complete set of project files from one computer to the other would be just like re-opining the project on the original computer. You don't actually have to create the "straight files", if you use broadcast waves as your record format the timestamping on the file takes care of it's position with the other files. The value of creating "as you hear" files isn't just in positioning. It's true that the Broadcast Wave time stamp will take care of that. But if you have a bunch of punch-ins or edits on a track, you have a bunch of files. Unless you take care to send out only the right one, the person setting up the project on another system needs to know which of those two-word-long files with the same words is the right vocal punch-in. That information is contained in the project file, or at least it had darn well better be. Some day there will be a standard for more of this kind of stuff, but as long as DAW programmers have their own take on how edits and fades and mixes are handled, there will be some data that won't be shared among programs. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Romeo Rondeau wrote:
Is it smart enough to leave those either unassigned or assigned to non- existent outputs (to preserve the session for when it goes back to the original studio)? Or - horror of horrors - does it try to do the best it can, assuming that you want to hear those tracks, and double-assign them to the two outputs that are present in the hardware? While it's not a big deal to consolidate tracks, export them on one end, and import them on the other end, if that isn't done, then you lose any edits, mix moves, EQ, and processing. So when the person imports the "straight" files and starts working on his overdubs, he isn't hearing what he heard in the studio, and may end up playing parts that don't fit well when brought in to mix with the original tracks. Happens with tape machines all the time. The best way to think about it is that the harddrive is like a reel of tape. Don't expect any settings mix-wise to translate at all. You don't actually have to create the "straight files", if you use broadcast waves as your record format the timestamping on the file takes care of it's position with the other files. In Nuendo, I would select "insert into project at origin" and we're off to the races... Yes yes yes, I get the picture now Those were the issues I couldn't get to grasps with. Makes perfectly sense that most any DAW will be different WRT hardware setup, plugins et al, so of cause one cannot simply expect to be able to carry and load projects between setups. I was simply told otherwise, and had kindof expected a major app like PT to be setup-to-setup compatible. I'll reevaluate and select my shoppings not based on PT compatibility, but rather on my actual needs. Thanks all for clarifying those matters. -- Kind regards, Mogens V. Complexity and stability always have an inverse relationship. As the saying goes: the more you overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to clog up the drain. -- Sam Varshavchik |
#25
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:53:37 +0200, Mogens V. wrote:
snip Yes yes yes, I get the picture now Those were the issues I couldn't get to grasps with. Makes perfectly sense that most any DAW will be different WRT hardware setup, plugins et al, so of cause one cannot simply expect to be able to carry and load projects between setups. I was simply told otherwise, and had kindof expected a major app like PT to be setup-to-setup compatible. Even if two people have the same plugins and are using the same brand of DAW software, transfers still might not work as you need to be using the same *versions* of those plugins and DAW software. It's rare that a recent upgrade of a DAW will save project files in a format that an earlier version can read. I'll reevaluate and select my shoppings not based on PT compatibility, but rather on my actual needs. Good idea. In my experience, there are only two reasons for exchanging unfinished recordings with other people, which will perhaps explain why DAW compatibility is not considered a big deal in the industry: 1 The recipient is going to mix the track. 2 The recipient will overdub a few parts and send it back. In the first case, the recipient is going to start from scratch anyway, and so does not really need your effects. Fades, edits and volume/pan automation are captured by the simple 'bounce every track' approach. In the second case, they don't even need a multitrack, just a stereo rough mix will do. If there are any plugins or outboard I'm using that I think are important to the vibe of the track, I bounce effected versions and include them as alternates. Of course, with free software like Ardour, you can assume that the recipient can obtain the same version of DAW+Plugins, and also will be able to efficiently rsync their version of the project with yours over the internet using Ardour Session Exchange. It becomes interesting as a possible 'meeting point' for users of proprietary DAWs as a result. Thanks all for clarifying those matters. |
#26
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
Yes yes yes, I get the picture now Those were the issues I couldn't get to grasps with. Makes perfectly sense that most any DAW will be different WRT hardware setup, plugins et al, so of cause one cannot simply expect to be able to carry and load projects between setups. I was simply told otherwise, and had kindof expected a major app like PT to be setup-to-setup compatible. I'll reevaluate and select my shoppings not based on PT compatibility, but rather on my actual needs. Two DAW's of the same version and configuration can swap projects (not just the audio files, but the project file, too) easily if the project is restricted to using plugins they have in common. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#27
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
hank alrich wrote:
Mogens V. wrote: Yes yes yes, I get the picture now Those were the issues I couldn't get to grasps with. Makes perfectly sense that most any DAW will be different WRT hardware setup, plugins et al, so of cause one cannot simply expect to be able to carry and load projects between setups. I was simply told otherwise, and had kindof expected a major app like PT to be setup-to-setup compatible. I'll reevaluate and select my shoppings not based on PT compatibility, but rather on my actual needs. Two DAW's of the same version and configuration can swap projects (not just the audio files, but the project file, too) easily if the project is restricted to using plugins they have in common. Ohh? this is in contrast with dawg's comments earlier, that You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. ... If the other guy has a close clone to your daw perhaps on a really lucky day you could put your project into another persons machine and get it to load up exactly as it was when you saved it from your machine. AFAICT, the key point here is that two DAW's most likely won't have the same plugins. If the common plugins will open correctly, all is fine, but other replies here seems to suggest it's unclear how the non-common ones opens, and likewise with hardware differences, as in outboard gear hooked up, like a reverb thingy or a pitch transposer. -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#28
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Apr 2, 2:54 pm, "Mogens V."
wrote: Ohh? this is in contrast with dawg's comments earlier, that You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. This is why I asked further questions. Obviously a plug-in that doesn't exist can't load and an ouptut that isn't there can't be used. But I know that at least in the early days, ProTools mix files were interchangeable. Perhaps there are enough variations today that people use so that most of the time you have more things that don't work than it used to be, and if you have 96 tracks going on the studio machine and try to load that on your 5 year old laptop at home, there would be some (ahem) issues, but I would certainly expect that levels, edits, punches, mutes, and basic channel EQ and dynamics should be interchangeable between systems. |
#29
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Apr 2, 2:31 pm, philicorda
wrote: It's rare that a recent upgrade of a DAW will save project files in a format that an earlier version can read. Well, that totally bites. I can see Version 5 not being able to read a Version 7 project, but I would expect that at least a Version 7.3 project should work on a Version 7.2 system other than perhaps for a feature that was used that wasn't added until the newer version. In my experience, there are only two reasons for exchanging unfinished recordings with other people, which will perhaps explain why DAW compatibility is not considered a big deal in the industry: 1 The recipient is going to mix the track. 2 The recipient will overdub a few parts and send it back. I suppose that covers about everything, except for projects where several parts are added by different people and all the pieces come back to the "mothership" or the one doing the mixing. The usual way to handle that is to make a 2-track rough mix and have everyone overdub to that. But that 2-track mix will essentially be a consolidated file since it will run from the beginning to the end of the tune. It's no big deal to start a new project when all you need to do is import one stereo track. And what they send back, while it might have been punched until it bleeds, will be a contiguous file per track with minimal processing. |
#30
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:32:50 -0700, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:31 pm, philicorda wrote: It's rare that a recent upgrade of a DAW will save project files in a format that an earlier version can read. Well, that totally bites. I can see Version 5 not being able to read a Version 7 project, but I would expect that at least a Version 7.3 project should work on a Version 7.2 system other than perhaps for a feature that was used that wasn't added until the newer version. Yes, unless the reason for the point upgrade was to fix a problem with the session file format. I don't think that would be a problem anyway, as people can normally do the point upgrade for free, and they are generally just bug fixes so people don't consider it risky to upgrade. A major number upgrade normally means 'This is significantly different and breaks compatibility'. In my experience, there are only two reasons for exchanging unfinished recordings with other people, which will perhaps explain why DAW compatibility is not considered a big deal in the industry: 1 The recipient is going to mix the track. 2 The recipient will overdub a few parts and send it back. I suppose that covers about everything, except for projects where several parts are added by different people and all the pieces come back to the "mothership" or the one doing the mixing. The usual way to handle that is to make a 2-track rough mix and have everyone overdub to that. But that 2-track mix will essentially be a consolidated file since it will run from the beginning to the end of the tune. It's no big deal to start a new project when all you need to do is import one stereo track. And what they send back, while it might have been punched until it bleeds, will be a contiguous file per track with minimal processing. I like the way that people can only give me edited and continuous audio parts when exchanging files in this manner. Total compatibility could just mean deferring decisions, or temptation to fiddle and waste time. 'Punched until it bleeds' hehe! |
#31
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
hank alrich wrote: Mogens V. wrote: Yes yes yes, I get the picture now Those were the issues I couldn't get to grasps with. Makes perfectly sense that most any DAW will be different WRT hardware setup, plugins et al, so of cause one cannot simply expect to be able to carry and load projects between setups. I was simply told otherwise, and had kindof expected a major app like PT to be setup-to-setup compatible. I'll reevaluate and select my shoppings not based on PT compatibility, but rather on my actual needs. Two DAW's of the same version and configuration can swap projects (not just the audio files, but the project file, too) easily if the project is restricted to using plugins they have in common. Ohh? this is in contrast with dawg's comments earlier, that You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. ... If the other guy has a close clone to your daw perhaps on a really lucky day you could put your project into another persons machine and get it to load up exactly as it was when you saved it from your machine. AFAICT, the key point here is that two DAW's most likely won't have the same plugins. If the common plugins will open correctly, all is fine, but other replies here seems to suggest it's unclear how the non-common ones opens, and likewise with hardware differences, as in outboard gear hooked up, like a reverb thingy or a pitch transposer. Right, if you want to do this with another party both of you must decide what you're going to use and stick to using only what you in common, both plugins and versions thereof. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#32
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mike Rivers wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:54 pm, "Mogens V." wrote: Ohh? this is in contrast with dawg's comments earlier, that You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. This is why I asked further questions. Obviously a plug-in that doesn't exist can't load and an ouptut that isn't there can't be used. But I know that at least in the early days, ProTools mix files were interchangeable. Perhaps there are enough variations today that people use so that most of the time you have more things that don't work than it used to be, and if you have 96 tracks going on the studio machine and try to load that on your 5 year old laptop at home, there would be some (ahem) issues, but I would certainly expect that levels, edits, punches, mutes, and basic channel EQ and dynamics should be interchangeable between systems. Correct as long as the DAW versions are identical. Depending on what level of PT system is in use, this could include both the app version and the hardware configuration if using TDM. Third-party plugins must also be version-identical if one wishes fully to swap mix files and have identical mix experiences. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#33
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mike Rivers wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:31 pm, philicorda wrote: It's rare that a recent upgrade of a DAW will save project files in a format that an earlier version can read. Well, that totally bites. I can see Version 5 not being able to read a Version 7 project, but I would expect that at least a Version 7.3 project should work on a Version 7.2 system other than perhaps for a feature that was used that wasn't added until the newer version. That most cetainly is universally the case in most DAW systems. Dunno about PT. geoff |
#34
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
hank alrich wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote: On Apr 2, 2:54 pm, "Mogens V." wrote: Ohh? this is in contrast with dawg's comments earlier, that You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. This is why I asked further questions. Obviously a plug-in that doesn't exist can't load and an ouptut that isn't there can't be used. But I know that at least in the early days, ProTools mix files were interchangeable. Perhaps there are enough variations today that people use so that most of the time you have more things that don't work than it used to be, and if you have 96 tracks going on the studio machine and try to load that on your 5 year old laptop at home, there would be some (ahem) issues, but I would certainly expect that levels, edits, punches, mutes, and basic channel EQ and dynamics should be interchangeable between systems. Correct as long as the DAW versions are identical. Depending on what level of PT system is in use, this could include both the app version and the hardware configuration if using TDM. Third-party plugins must also be version-identical if one wishes fully to swap mix files and have identical mix experiences. To me this seems most useful for either musicians in a band agreeing on the same setup for each their own home studio, or for (pro) studios doing work together. -- Kind regards, Mogens V. |
#35
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
Mogens V. wrote:
hank alrich wrote: Mike Rivers wrote: On Apr 2, 2:54 pm, "Mogens V." wrote: Ohh? this is in contrast with dawg's comments earlier, that You seem to not get the fact that just because you put your project down in PT it is not automatically compatible with all other PT rigs. If you do not have the same type ( LT Free TDM etc) or a different, used in project, plug in configuration it will not load up in another, non clone to your DAW, like it was in your DAW. This is why I asked further questions. Obviously a plug-in that doesn't exist can't load and an ouptut that isn't there can't be used. But I know that at least in the early days, ProTools mix files were interchangeable. Perhaps there are enough variations today that people use so that most of the time you have more things that don't work than it used to be, and if you have 96 tracks going on the studio machine and try to load that on your 5 year old laptop at home, there would be some (ahem) issues, but I would certainly expect that levels, edits, punches, mutes, and basic channel EQ and dynamics should be interchangeable between systems. Correct as long as the DAW versions are identical. Depending on what level of PT system is in use, this could include both the app version and the hardware configuration if using TDM. Third-party plugins must also be version-identical if one wishes fully to swap mix files and have identical mix experiences. To me this seems most useful for either musicians in a band agreeing on the same setup for each their own home studio, or for (pro) studios doing work together. You got it. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#36
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
A lot of smaller studios here in the UK use Logic Audio and Cubase. I
have been suprised how many in fact. Lets face it a PTHD system costs a lot of money, so if you need to track audio into DAW personal studios and small commercial studios will try to look for other alternatives where they can get away with it. Don't consider a DAW based on what your pears are using. Have a play and ask yourself how does this feel in terms of workflow? Does it fit with how you work? Some people find PT amazingly simple some people don't? A DAW solution is a personal choice. I recently saw a demo of PTLE in a shop in London and loved it so did a switch recently to it. No other reason whatso ever other than workflow. In fact pound for pound Sonar and Cubase had more buttons to press than PTLE but it really isn't about that. I was fed up of wrestling with Sonar and Cubase finding myself pressing more buttons than making music. But for others it might be the complete opposite. PT certainly has it downs too. People are right in this thread to point out that WAV and AIFF are the raw audio standards so the DAW mismatch is not a show stopper. Although a software match would be nice for a project. But if the whole world was using Sonar, as a newly found PTLE user I would never switch back (just IMHO). On Apr 2, 7:47 pm, (hank alrich) wrote: Mogens V. wrote: Yes yes yes, I get the picture now Those were the issues I couldn't get to grasps with. Makes perfectly sense that most any DAW will be different WRT hardware setup, plugins et al, so of cause one cannot simply expect to be able to carry and load projects between setups. I was simply told otherwise, and had kindof expected a major app like PT to be setup-to-setup compatible. I'll reevaluate and select my shoppings not based on PT compatibility, but rather on my actual needs. Two DAW's of the same version and configuration can swap projects (not just the audio files, but the project file, too) easily if the project is restricted to using plugins they have in common. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#37
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:43:38 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote
(in article .com): Some day there will be a standard for more of this kind of stuff, but as long as DAW programmers have their own take on how edits and fades and mixes are handled, there will be some data that won't be shared among programs. Don't hold your breath. The makers of wireless body mics haven't been able to standardize mic connectors and aren't likely to. Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#38
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:58:45 -0400, Geoff wrote
(in article ) : Mike Rivers wrote: On Apr 2, 2:31 pm, philicorda wrote: It's rare that a recent upgrade of a DAW will save project files in a format that an earlier version can read. Well, that totally bites. I can see Version 5 not being able to read a Version 7 project, but I would expect that at least a Version 7.3 project should work on a Version 7.2 system other than perhaps for a feature that was used that wasn't added until the newer version. That most cetainly is universally the case in most DAW systems. Dunno about PT. geoff PTLE opens old sessions. Actually it leaves the old session file alone and opens a new session based on the old session. Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#39
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:49:01 -0400, Ty Ford
wrote: PTLE opens old sessions. Actually it leaves the old session file alone and opens a new session based on the old session. Which is then portable back to the original system? Or not? |
#40
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DAW types, a Bit confused..
On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:21:09 -0400, Laurence Payne wrote
(in article ): On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:49:01 -0400, Ty Ford wrote: PTLE opens old sessions. Actually it leaves the old session file alone and opens a new session based on the old session. Which is then portable back to the original system? Or not? never done it that way. Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
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