I'm looking for recommendations for a cassette deck, budget $500. Dual-well
would be nice, but I'm quite willing to forego that in favor of sound
quality & durability at this point. Pitch control and rack-mountability
would be nice, beyond that I'm mainly just trying to maximize quality within
budget.

It will be used partly to get some cassettes that I have onto my hard drive
(those that can't be replaced or that I want to keep but not spend money
replacing) and partly for playing cassettes; at a later date, I may press it
into service in a home studio environment. Probably will be the last
cassette deck I'll buy, provided it holds up better than the useless
paperweight that sits with my gear now :-(

Based on specs alone, the current frontrunner is the Tascam 130, any
opinions/experiences with that deck would be welcomed, as well as the
alternatives.

Thanks,
Ed

Ed wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for a cassette deck, budget $500. Dual-well
would be nice, but I'm quite willing to forego that in favor of sound
quality & durability at this point. Pitch control and rack-mountability
would be nice, beyond that I'm mainly just trying to maximize quality within
budget.

Try:

http://www.tascam.com/Products/202mkIII.html

I believe this should fit your bill with some change to spare.

michael

For recording, the best deck is Nakamichi. They are available used on
EBAY. For playing back previously recorded tapes, Nakamichi would not
be a good choice because they have an equalization curve that wouldn't
match your tapes.


---MIKE---

Ed wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for a cassette deck, budget $500.
Dual-well
would be nice, but I'm quite willing to forego that in favor of sound

quality & durability at this point. Pitch control and
rack-mountability
would be nice, beyond that I'm mainly just trying to maximize quality
within
budget.

It will be used partly to get some cassettes that I have onto my hard
drive
(those that can't be replaced or that I want to keep but not spend
money
replacing) and partl y for playing cassettes; at a later date, I may
press it
into service in a home studio environment. Probably will be the last

cassette deck I'll buy, provided it holds up better than the useless
paperweight that sits with my gear now :-(

Based on specs alone, the current frontrunner is the Tascam 130, any
opinions/experiences with that deck would be welcomed, as well as the

alternatives.



A year ago I went through exactly the same search: Didn't want to spend
more than $500 on a cassette deck, wanted something that would sound as
good (or as close to as good) as a cassette deck possibly could,
especially wanted to buy something that would last forever because lord
knows I never want to have to buy another cassette deck as long as I
live.

In an ideal world I would have found a Nakamichi LX-5 that had been
hidden in someone's attic, still sealed in the box, never used. Yeah,
right. A used Nakamichi MR-1 or Tascam 133 mkIII with less than 10
hours on the heads would've been nice too. Dream on. 1000 hours
maybe...and still not for $500.

I wound up getting a brand new Tascam 130. It's fine. Not stellar
sounding; any of the three models I mentioned above would kick the crap
out of a 130 in a listening test, but I'm just too mistrustful of the
condition of heads & transports on a used cassette deck. The 130 has
proven to be more than adequate. As we used to say in retail, "it won't
kill your children."

---MIKE--- wrote:

For recording, the best deck is Nakamichi. They are available used on
EBAY. For playing back previously recorded tapes, Nakamichi would not
be a good choice because they have an equalization curve that wouldn't
match your tapes.

As another poster implied, I'd be wary of used decks. Especially on
ebay. There is a reason people sell these things. I'm not saying you
won't find a good one, but buyer beware.


A 10 or 15 year old Nak (any used mechanical device, really) will need
service. Nakamichi is no longer in the business of making high quality
cassette decks. No one is, as far as I know. And, even in the heyday
of cassette, the medium was always a compromise. Who knows about
availability of parts, anymore?


It would be better to forget analog cassettes. But if you must have
something it is better to get something new and something with a
warranty; something where parts are still available at a reasonable
price if you do need service. The lower range Tascam has everything you
are looking for with the exception of pitch control. The latter may be
more difficult to track down for cheap. The Tascam 322 has pitch
control and perhaps you might find one on sale for your price.


michael

michael wrote:

more difficult to track down for cheap. The Tascam 322 has pitch
control and perhaps you might find one on sale for your price.

Indeed: http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAS322

bob

---MIKE--- wrote:
For recording, the best deck is Nakamichi. They are available used on
EBAY. For playing back previously recorded tapes, Nakamichi would not
be a good choice because they have an equalization curve that wouldn't
match your tapes.


That conflicts with what I've read abou Naks. INdeed, from that it
appears a Nakamichi with azimuth correction would be
perhaps the best choice in playback deck.



-- -S It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld,
testifying before the House Armed Services Committee

Have you considered a Sony Mini Disc instead of cassette? I switched to
MD and haven't looked back.

Some of the Naks do have azimuth correction for the playback head
(Dragon) but many of them adjust the azimuth at the record head (my ZX-7
for example). It is well known that Nakamichi uses different
equalization because of their superior heads. Tapes made on another
deck will not sound as good when played on a Nak. Tapes made on a Nak
will sound excellent when played back on the same deck. If fact, it
would be hard to tell a tape copy of a CD from the original.


---MIKE---

---MIKE--- wrote:
Some of the Naks do have azimuth correction for the playback head
(Dragon) but many of them adjust the azimuth at the record head (my ZX-7
for example).

Yes, but the playback asmimuth adjusters (theDragon does it automatically,
but some other models allow manual adjsutment) are what I'm referring to.


It is well known that Nakamichi uses different equalization because
of
their superior heads. Tapes made on another deck will not sound as
good
when played on a Nak. Tapes made on a Nak will sound excellent when
played back on the same deck. If fact, it would be hard to tell a tape
copy of a CD from the original.


You're right, and I was misremembering. I had thought the only difference
was that the tape head gap was narrower in Naks, but I see that they also
used the original 70's EQ standard, while cheaper decks adopted a standard
set in 1981.

e.g.,

http://www.geocities.com/p9019/nakamichi/threads.html

---MIKE--- wrote:
Some of the Naks do have azimuth correction for the playback head
(Dragon) but many of them adjust the azimuth at the record head (my
ZX-7
for example). It is well known that Nakamichi uses different
equalization because of their superior heads. Tapes made on another
deck will not sound as good when played on a Nak.

I believe you are somewhat misinformed. According to the Nakamichi
dealer training I received back in the Stone Age (aka 1983) it is
Nakamichi's record equalization that is significantly different from
most commercial cassette decks. Therefore tapes made on a Nak will not
sound as good when played on another deck as they will when played on
the original Nak. But Nakamichi's playback equalization is far closer
to commonly used curves; tapes made on other decks playback fine on
most Nakamichi's.

Tapes made on a Nak
will sound excellent when played back on the same deck. If fact, it
would be hard to tell a tape copy of a CD from the original.

This is true in so far as frequency response and noise level goes.
(Factoid: Nakamichi was the only cassette manufacturer who's published
frequency response measurements were based on tapes recorded at 0 VU.)
But as soon as you listen for dynamics the inherant limitations of the
cassette medium become evident, and it becomes trivial to distinguish
the cassette from the CD.


---MIKE---

---MIKE--- wrote:

Tapes made on a Nak
will sound excellent when played back on the same deck. If fact, it
would be hard to tell a tape copy of a CD from the original.


Hard for some, maybe. But probably not too difficult for most.
Especially using music with high dynamic range where sustained tones are
generated (Liszt lieder with piano accompaniment would quickly show off
the difference). Level match the CD and cassette, turn the volume up
(or use headphones) and the difference will manifest quickly.


I'll admit that the last good Nak I spent time with (1000 ZXL) was
earlier than their latest and greatest Dragon deck, however using the
ZXL with Nakamichi tapes it was clearly no match for the then popular
direct to disc analog recordings. But no one really expected it to be.


Don't think I'm being down on Nakamichi. Given the medium they had to
work with it is amazing what their engineers were able to achieve.


At lower levels the FR of cassettes can be good (say, -20 to -30db from
0), but at saturation levels the FR will deteriorate and distortion will
rise significantly. For the Dragon, Nakamichi published S/N specs of
72dB weighted at 400 Hz with 3% distortion using NR. They claimed 20 to
22kHz at -20 dB using their best tape (no longer available, and even
they didn't want to cite figures at higher recording levels). Also, we
must remember that this FR specification tolerance was within a 6dB
range (plus or minus 3dB). Now, it is generally accepted that
deviations of greater than 0.1 dB can be detected reliably by most
listeners. So, on the face of it and even without listening your claim
is questionable. Unless you are listening to a CD copy of the original
cassette, in which case the two may be indistinguishable.


You might want to argue that since most people's hearing starts to fall
off in the low to mid teens, high frequency loss on cassettes may not be
that big an issue. But we can't just talk FR.


Because of tape hiss (audible on every deck, even pro open reel with the
exception of, possibly, the few using Dolby S), tape drop outs and
manufacturing problems (the best tapes are no longer being made),
limited dynamic range, deterioration of signal on the tape over time,
the need for maintenance due to wear and tear, and so forth, I can't
imagine why anyone except a die hard hobbyist would want to bother.
Especially in today's market where one can buy a CD burner for next to
nothing.


The Nak was a good machine, maybe the best of its kind. And it made
good sound. But history has left it behind. It kind of reminds me of
the guy who, out of love and passion, still maintains a 25 year old
sports car, and while tooling around town on weekends wants to imagine
that he's driving something not that far removed from a modern Porsche
911. After all, they both have two seats and are fun to drive.


michael

Make sure that you can adjust Play head's azimuth, in case you are handling
pre-encoded cassettes made on misaligned machines, and that cassettes made
earlier with real Dolby either B or/and C can be decoded properly.
Manual Speed tweaking is also worth considering in order to match correct
musical and voice pitch.
But Azimuth is to me the most essential facet in any tape-based system, from
cassette to 1/4" to 2", if keeping tracks' phase correlation optimum.
If poss, get hold of a cheap system based on a later Wollensak horizontal
deck
which is open for adjustments. This may prove a good workhorse.
Jim

Ed

Ed wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for a cassette deck, budget $500. Dual-well
would be nice, but I'm quite willing to forego that in favor of sound
quality & durability at this point. Pitch control and rack-mountability
would be nice, beyond that I'm mainly just trying to maximize quality within
budget.

It will be used partly to get some cassettes that I have onto my hard drive
(those that can't be replaced or that I want to keep but not spend money
replacing) and partly for playing cassettes; at a later date, I may press it
into service in a home studio environment. Probably will be the last
cassette deck I'll buy, provided it holds up better than the useless
paperweight that sits with my gear now :-(

Based on specs alone, the current frontrunner is the Tascam 130, any
opinions/experiences with that deck would be welcomed, as well as the
alternatives.

Thanks,
Ed
Go for a 3 head - preferably 3 motor - 2 if you must. Most companies
don't make them anymore - except Denon I think

[stillwood3]

Originally Posted by Ed

I'm looking for recommendations for a cassette deck, budget $500. Dual-well
would be nice, but I'm quite willing to forego that in favor of sound
quality & durability at this point. Pitch control and rack-mountability
would be nice, beyond that I'm mainly just trying to maximize quality within
budget.

It will be used partly to get some cassettes that I have onto my hard drive
(those that can't be replaced or that I want to keep but not spend money
replacing) and partly for playing cassettes; at a later date, I may press it
into service in a home studio environment. Probably will be the last
cassette deck I'll buy, provided it holds up better than the useless
paperweight that sits with my gear now :-(

Based on specs alone, the current frontrunner is the Tascam 130, any
opinions/experiences with that deck would be welcomed, as well as the
alternatives.

Thanks,
Ed

Would recommend a Nakamichi Dragon if you are slightly flexible on your
budget (say 500-700). You will not need to ever buy another one to
increase quality, they are repairable, and hold their value well. Auto azimuth
and bias adjustment, and used with a chrome or metal tape, you will have
astonishingly good playback and recording.

michael wrote:


At lo wer levels the FR of cassettes can be good (say, -20 to -30db
from
0), but at saturation levels the FR will deteriorate and distortion
will
rise significantly. For the Dragon, Nakamichi published S/N specs of
72dB weighted at 400 Hz with 3% distortion using NR. They claimed 20
to
22kHz at -20 dB using their best tape (no longer available, and even
they didn't want to cite figures at higher recording levels).

This is incorrect. As I intimated in my previous post, it was precisely
because Nakamichi decks had respectable playback FR with tapes recorded
at 0 VU that they proudly published those specs. From approximately
1983 on, Nakamichi claimed their 3-head decks (at least) were capable
of 20-20k response at 0 VU using their ZX metal tapes & Dolby C.

Ed Wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for a cassette deck, budget $500.
Dual-well
would be nice, but I'm quite willing to forego that in favor of sound
quality & durability at this point. Pitch control and
rack-mountability
would be nice, beyond that I'm mainly just trying to maximize quality
within
budget.

It will be used partly to get some cassettes that I have onto my hard
drive
(those that can't be replaced or that I want to keep but not spend
money
replacing) and partly for playing cassettes; at a later date, I may
press it
into service in a home studio environment. Probably will be the last
cassette deck I'll buy, provided it holds up better than the useless
paperweight that sits with my gear now :-(

Based on specs alone, the current frontrunner is the Tascam 130, any
opinions/experiences with that deck would be welcomed, as well as the
alternatives.

Thanks,
Ed

Would recommend a Nakamichi Dragon if you are slightly flexible on
your
budget (say 500-700). You will not need to ever buy another one to
increase quality, they are repairable, and hold their value well. Auto
azimuth
and bias adjustment, and used with a chrome or metal tape, you will
have
astonishingly good playback and recording.


--
stillwood3

The Nak ZX-7 has no means for adjusting the playback head azimuth other
than actually adjusting the head position with a screw driver - not a
recommended procedure. (This would require a high quality alignment
tape and the screws are not accessible without taking the covers off).
The recommended calibration procedure adjusts the record head azimuth
using a 400hz test tone and using the knobs on the front panel.


---MIKE---

Bob Ross wrote:

This is incorrect. As I intimated in my previous post, it was precisely
because Nakamichi decks had respectable playback FR with tapes recorded
at 0 VU that they proudly published those specs. From approximately
1983 on, Nakamichi claimed their 3-head decks (at least) were capable
of 20-20k response at 0 VU using their ZX metal tapes & Dolby C.


Looking at what I have, this is not seen. I'd be interested in knowing,
from your literature, the details. Specifically, THD plus noise and at
what frequency was this was measured? 400Hz?


In any case, it is all moot. Nakamichi was state of the art-for
cassette. But, today, state of the art is on an entirely new level.
Let's compare the old SOA with the new. For comparison we can look at
the Benchmark DAC 1. Although not a recording device, it is
representative of what can be expected; I'm guessing that for recording
their upcoming ADC 1 will be similar.


The Nak was rated to be "flat" within 3 dB from 20 to 22 kHz at -20dB
below 0 VU (at 400 Hz) with 3.0% THD. Wow and flutter weighted peak was
0.04%. (data taken from Nakamichi literature)


The Benchmark is essentially flat at all frequencies, down 0.2 dB at 20
kHz and down only 0.9 dB at 40 kHz. THD and noise are under 0.0003
percent. There are, obviously, no speed fluctuation errors. (data taken
from the recent Audio Critic measurements which essentially matches the
Benchmark's Web site data.)


So, if given the choice of your favorite recording played on a Nakamichi
cassette deck, or one played through the Benchmark device, and if clean,
dynamic, undistorted sound is important, is there any arguing about the
choice?


michael

Where did you get that information? There were two possible
incompatibilities............the Dolby C was a little bit different than
some of the other decks and that dual diffused transport system that lifted
the pressure pad might have caused some wow and flutter problems. I am not
sure about that one.
I have a CR-4A that has only a couple hundred hours on it and it has been
working pretty well over the years, but you do have to be careful with what
you are buying. Good luck!

Pete

"---MIKE---" wrote in message
...
For recording, the best deck is Nakamichi. They are available used on
EBAY. For playing back previously recorded tapes, Nakamichi would not
be a good choice because they have an equalization curve that wouldn't
match your tapes.


---MIKE---

My mistake..............it didn't realize the EQ curve was different.

Pete

"---MIKE---" wrote in message
...
Some of the Naks do have azimuth correction for the playback head
(Dragon) but many of them adjust the azimuth at the record head (my ZX-7
for example). It is well known that Nakamichi uses different
equalization because of their superior heads. Tapes made on another
deck will not sound as good when played on a Nak. Tapes made on a Nak
will sound excellent when played back on the same deck. If fact, it
would be hard to tell a tape copy of a CD from the original.

Very true...............


---MIKE---

michael wrote:

Looking at what I have, this is not seen. I'd be interested in knowing,
from your literature, the details. Specifically, THD plus noise and at
what frequency was this was measured? 400Hz?


After doing some searching I found a couple of reviews of the ZX7. The
ZX 7 was a step down from the Dragon, but unlike Judge Smeals, the ZX 7
was no slouch. It retailed for $1350.00 in 1986. I guess this was
their mid-range deck? Thus, I would expect the Dragon to to better than
these figures, but it was the only review I could find.


For 3% distortion at 315 Hz the Hi Fidelity Magazine labs measured (Nak
metal tape) a meter reading of +10dB. Clearly, for a cassette machine,
one could record at a pretty high level. Channel separation at 315Hz
was 45dB. Nothing to write home about, today, but probably pretty good
back then.


THD at -10dB from 50 to 5KHz was 0.34%. Speed accuracy? The deck was
0.5% fast. Flutter was 0.78% peak. At -20 dB the record-playback was
flat within 2.25 dB from 20 to 20 kHz. Clearly, there was no gross
loss of high frequency capture at moderate recording levels. This was
likely exceptional for a cassette deck of the day.


Stereo Review found the deck's response at 0 VU to be (I'm interpreting
from the graph) extremely flat (within 1 dB) from 20 Hz to about 5 KHz,
and then it looks like it was down about 2 dB at 10 KHz. By about 18
KHz it was down at least 10 dB.


This is pretty much what I remembered from cassette. At low to moderate
levels, FR was good, at higher levels deterioration quickly set in. The
trick, as I recall, with cassette, was to record at a high enough level
to avoid noise, but not so high as to unduly increase distortion and
high frequency roll off.


michael

"---MIKE---" wrote in message
...
For recording, the best deck is Nakamichi. They are available used on
EBAY. For playing back previously recorded tapes, Nakamichi would not
be a good choice because they have an equalization curve that wouldn't
match your tapes.


---MIKE---

Check out Audiogon.com for used Naks. Your selling audience is more likely
to be hi-fi fans who've cared for their equipment.

I had a heavily-used BX100 (ca. 1984) that finally bit the dust about a year
ago. Given the huge volume of rare tapes I had recorded on it, I found a
BX-300 (same line, but 3 heads, and *pitch control*) at Audiogon. Seller
claimed low usage, but the deck's motor was shot. Seller gave me a full
refund, and I found a good shop that completely replace the motor and drive
mechanism, and got it in tip-top shape for $240. I was, and am, thrilled!

Regrettably, I've been away for a while, and this is my first chance since a
couple of days after my initial post to check back in. Just wanted to thank
everyone for their suggestions and for the interesting discussion.

I had heard of the Nak Dragon and its adjustable azimuth before, and had
even looked on Audiogon once or twice, saw one for $730 or so at the time.
(There's one for $610 now, which is getting tempting.) Given my budget,
though, and the desire to avoid overstepping it further if service was
needed, I think I'll be going with the 130. It has much better claimed
frequency response than the other Tascams at that price range, which I
suppose (or hope, at least) is a valid comparison within that one brand.
And it has pitch control. I'm willing to forgo the dual-well since, really,
the last thing I want to do at this point is create a bunch more tapes - the
idea is mostly to dispose of the ones I have, saving mostly the bootlegs,
local bands, my old bands, etc., that aren't available on CD, as well as a
select few others that, as I said, I want to keep but don't want to
re-purchase immediately. And Mr. Ross has assured me that it won't kill my
children, which is obviously the most important consideration of all, though
one that somehow escaped me when drawing up my initial criteria :-)

Thanks again for all the input and suggestions.

Ed