He let me hear what he recorded and it sounded excellent (Sony
CDR-W33). Although I didn't hear the soft passages, I know there was
quite a bit of coughing and other sounds in the audience. I'd prefer
to use cardioids facing the stage to limit audience noise. But he had
those omnis pointing straight up (probably doesn't matter if they're
omnis). Anybody have an opinion about cardioid vs omni in live
recordings?



I use both omnis or cardioids. Which I use depends upon the hall and what I am
recording.

Omnis pointing straight up is moderately weird as the off axis response is not
exactly the same as on- axis response.

Most omnis ( even B&K) exhibit some high frequency directionality at certain
frequencies. Perhaps he was trying to avoid that.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

In article ,
Carey Carlan wrote:

I get farther back and use my hypercardioids in a bad or noisy room. I
find that omnis can't get far enough forward to avoid crowd noise.

I performed an experiment last night in an old chapel. The director was
convinced that the mic stand had to be 15-20 tall, and 4 rows back
(think church pews).

So I put my Schoeps 641's 4 rows back, raised the Shure S-15 as high as
it would go. For the experiment, at the front edge of the stage, using
another S-15, I put my AT4053s up ~13'.

This was a 100 voice choir, ~25 feet back from the front edge of the
stage, on risers. Two concert grand pianos in front if them, and
percussion (for Carmina Burana).

End result was lots of the hall on the pulled back mount, poor clarity
on the text (but I don't understand Latin anyway). The close mount was
very clear, good diction, more what I was hearing when I took the
headphones off. Now when the percussion was hammering away, it covered
everything - both recording setups and to the listener in the audience.

I really wondered about using a pair of cardiods rather than
hypercardiods up high, but I didn't want to mess up what the customer
wanted. (The second set, at the front edge of the stage was my idea,
and something I wanted to do.)

And in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when
extended all the way up.

Doug

In article ,
Carey Carlan wrote:

I get farther back and use my hypercardioids in a bad or noisy room. I
find that omnis can't get far enough forward to avoid crowd noise.

I performed an experiment last night in an old chapel. The director was
convinced that the mic stand had to be 15-20 tall, and 4 rows back
(think church pews).

So I put my Schoeps 641's 4 rows back, raised the Shure S-15 as high as
it would go. For the experiment, at the front edge of the stage, using
another S-15, I put my AT4053s up ~13'.

This was a 100 voice choir, ~25 feet back from the front edge of the
stage, on risers. Two concert grand pianos in front if them, and
percussion (for Carmina Burana).

End result was lots of the hall on the pulled back mount, poor clarity
on the text (but I don't understand Latin anyway). The close mount was
very clear, good diction, more what I was hearing when I took the
headphones off. Now when the percussion was hammering away, it covered
everything - both recording setups and to the listener in the audience.

I really wondered about using a pair of cardiods rather than
hypercardiods up high, but I didn't want to mess up what the customer
wanted. (The second set, at the front edge of the stage was my idea,
and something I wanted to do.)

And in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when
extended all the way up.

Doug

"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:rQrld.333889$wV.247806@attbi_s54...

"bayydogg" wrote in message
om...
I understand the mic should be about 10 feet up in the air. So,
which
mic stand is best for this situation? What to do to prevent this
beast
from falling down? For dead center XY, how can it be unobtrusive
to
the audience?

Have you considered spaced PZMs? I always check ahead of time to
see
if a pair of PZMs on the floor can do the job. If they can, you
have
the ultimate in unobtrusivity.

I recorded a funeral a few years back, using 3 PZMs. 2 were on the
floor to pick up the organ, choir and overall ambience, and one was on
the lectern to pick up the eulogies. None of the mikes were visible
to the audience, and the recording was excellent. I was given the job
because the church definitely didn't want visible mikes, and I could
accommodate this requirement.

Norm

"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:rQrld.333889$wV.247806@attbi_s54...

"bayydogg" wrote in message
om...
I understand the mic should be about 10 feet up in the air. So,
which
mic stand is best for this situation? What to do to prevent this
beast
from falling down? For dead center XY, how can it be unobtrusive
to
the audience?

Have you considered spaced PZMs? I always check ahead of time to
see
if a pair of PZMs on the floor can do the job. If they can, you
have
the ultimate in unobtrusivity.

I recorded a funeral a few years back, using 3 PZMs. 2 were on the
floor to pick up the organ, choir and overall ambience, and one was on
the lectern to pick up the eulogies. None of the mikes were visible
to the audience, and the recording was excellent. I was given the job
because the church definitely didn't want visible mikes, and I could
accommodate this requirement.

Norm

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

Do you have a model number? The only tall crank-ups I can find are things
like the B150 (20' lift, holds 154 lbs. but weighs 156 lbs!)

The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.)
http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i
temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs.

There's also the Matthews at 25'
http://www.msegrip.com/mse.php?show=product&cat=&products_ID=25029 Holds 7
lbs, weighs 37 lbs.

I'll again recommend the Avenger A410B as a general purpose 13' stand
http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=150&i
temid=419 Holds 22 lbs., weighs under 9, has lazy leg for sloping floors &
stairs.)

That's a nice list, Kurt. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise:
19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of
78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!!
for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one)

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

Do you have a model number? The only tall crank-ups I can find are things
like the B150 (20' lift, holds 154 lbs. but weighs 156 lbs!)

The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.)
http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i
temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs.

There's also the Matthews at 25'
http://www.msegrip.com/mse.php?show=product&cat=&products_ID=25029 Holds 7
lbs, weighs 37 lbs.

I'll again recommend the Avenger A410B as a general purpose 13' stand
http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=150&i
temid=419 Holds 22 lbs., weighs under 9, has lazy leg for sloping floors &
stairs.)

That's a nice list, Kurt. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise:
19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of
78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!!
for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one)

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

Scott Dorsey wrote:
bayydogg wrote:


Anyway, I'll probably consider the lighting stand suggestion, then
modify it. I've converted some cheap photo tripods into portable mic
stands, so I know it's not that hard.


You should not need to modify it.

Just threading the top with a 5/8"-27 die is useful as long as you don't use it too much (or install one of those 2" extensions on top with Locktite.)




Bogen sells an adaptor from the light
stand thread to the microphone thread, for three or four bucks.

I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
bayydogg wrote:


Anyway, I'll probably consider the lighting stand suggestion, then
modify it. I've converted some cheap photo tripods into portable mic
stands, so I know it's not that hard.


You should not need to modify it.

Just threading the top with a 5/8"-27 die is useful as long as you don't use it too much (or install one of those 2" extensions on top with Locktite.)




Bogen sells an adaptor from the light
stand thread to the microphone thread, for three or four bucks.

I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!)

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.)
Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread?
Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!)

The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16 (with that 3/8-16 to 5/8-27 adapter most mic
mounts have) is pretty much it. If you have the 5/8"-27 die then one can cut
5/8"-27 onto a 3106. I've got three that were modified this way. They aren't
up to as much abuse as the 3102.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.)
Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread?
Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!)

The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16 (with that 3/8-16 to 5/8-27 adapter most mic
mounts have) is pretty much it. If you have the 5/8"-27 die then one can cut
5/8"-27 onto a 3106. I've got three that were modified this way. They aren't
up to as much abuse as the 3102.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

Douglas Moran wrote:

in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when
extended all the way up.

That's what drove me to the A410B, quite solid up to its 13' limit. They can reach a tad over 20' with the extensions but things get rather wiggly up there...

Douglas Moran wrote:

in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when
extended all the way up.

That's what drove me to the A410B, quite solid up to its 13' limit. They can reach a tad over 20' with the extensions but things get rather wiggly up there...

Douglas Moran wrote in news:morand-
:


I performed an experiment last night in an old chapel. The director
was
convinced that the mic stand had to be 15-20 tall, and 4 rows back
(think church pews).

So I put my Schoeps 641's 4 rows back, raised the Shure S-15 as high as
it would go. For the experiment, at the front edge of the stage,
using
another S-15, I put my AT4053s up ~13'.

This was a 100 voice choir, ~25 feet back from the front edge of the
stage, on risers. Two concert grand pianos in front if them, and
percussion (for Carmina Burana).

So your *close* microphones were already 25 feet from the chorus? That
sounds about right. Having the pianos and percussion in front of the
chorus makes it Very hard to get a good and balanced sound.

End result was lots of the hall on the pulled back mount, poor clarity
on the text (but I don't understand Latin anyway). The close mount was
very clear, good diction, more what I was hearing when I took the
headphones off. Now when the percussion was hammering away, it covered
everything - both recording setups and to the listener in the audience.

That indicates a fairly live hall. Mic placement is ALWAYS crucially
dependent on the room.

Your director was trying for a better balance betweent the chorus and the
accompaniment. I understand, but setting up that far back would have
needed some spot mics on the choir blended in lightly to get some
consonants.

For instance, today I was recording in a ballroom. High ceiling, dead
acoustics, and lots of HVAC noise, but a very polite crowd. I was set up
almost on stage (very close) with CMC641's spread wide (to center the
stereo image) to get just orchestra (35 piece string orchestra) with as
little bounce as possible. I was probably 8 feet from the front row and
almost directly above the violin soloist.

I really wondered about using a pair of cardiods rather than
hypercardiods up high, but I didn't want to mess up what the customer
wanted. (The second set, at the front edge of the stage was my idea,
and something I wanted to do.)

Too high is too high (profound, huh?). You usually want to get into the
direct projection field of whatever you're recording. High is great for
brass, ugly for strings, and outside the field for voices unless they are
singing at the ceiling.

And in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy
when
extended all the way up.

I have the older model. It must be sturdier.

Douglas Moran wrote in news:morand-
:


I performed an experiment last night in an old chapel. The director
was
convinced that the mic stand had to be 15-20 tall, and 4 rows back
(think church pews).

So I put my Schoeps 641's 4 rows back, raised the Shure S-15 as high as
it would go. For the experiment, at the front edge of the stage,
using
another S-15, I put my AT4053s up ~13'.

This was a 100 voice choir, ~25 feet back from the front edge of the
stage, on risers. Two concert grand pianos in front if them, and
percussion (for Carmina Burana).

So your *close* microphones were already 25 feet from the chorus? That
sounds about right. Having the pianos and percussion in front of the
chorus makes it Very hard to get a good and balanced sound.

End result was lots of the hall on the pulled back mount, poor clarity
on the text (but I don't understand Latin anyway). The close mount was
very clear, good diction, more what I was hearing when I took the
headphones off. Now when the percussion was hammering away, it covered
everything - both recording setups and to the listener in the audience.

That indicates a fairly live hall. Mic placement is ALWAYS crucially
dependent on the room.

Your director was trying for a better balance betweent the chorus and the
accompaniment. I understand, but setting up that far back would have
needed some spot mics on the choir blended in lightly to get some
consonants.

For instance, today I was recording in a ballroom. High ceiling, dead
acoustics, and lots of HVAC noise, but a very polite crowd. I was set up
almost on stage (very close) with CMC641's spread wide (to center the
stereo image) to get just orchestra (35 piece string orchestra) with as
little bounce as possible. I was probably 8 feet from the front row and
almost directly above the violin soloist.

I really wondered about using a pair of cardiods rather than
hypercardiods up high, but I didn't want to mess up what the customer
wanted. (The second set, at the front edge of the stage was my idea,
and something I wanted to do.)

Too high is too high (profound, huh?). You usually want to get into the
direct projection field of whatever you're recording. High is great for
brass, ugly for strings, and outside the field for voices unless they are
singing at the ceiling.

And in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy
when
extended all the way up.

I have the older model. It must be sturdier.

Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.)

http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/templates/templates.php3?sectionid=148&itemid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs.


I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise:
19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of
78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!!
for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one)


Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer.


Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections.

Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.)

http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/templates/templates.php3?sectionid=148&itemid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs.


I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise:
19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of
78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!!
for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one)


Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer.


Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections.

Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.)

Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread?
Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!)

The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16

Those are the ones I have now.


AEA sells one for $45, probably should have asked to see it at AES.

Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.)

Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread?
Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!)

The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16

Those are the ones I have now.


AEA sells one for $45, probably should have asked to see it at AES.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Carey Carlan wrote:

I use the Shure S15. For unobtrusive, paint it black.


Note that the original square-legged S15 has been discontinued, and has
been replaced with a much flimsier tubular aluminum thing (which also weighs
more to carry around).

Wes Dooley is selling the original S15 stand from the same guys who OEMed it
for Shure, and he has it available in black too. It's not cheap at all,
though. But it's a very nice stand for a light mike pair.

Is that what they call their AEA-13HDB? If so, it's an Avenger A410B.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Carey Carlan wrote:

I use the Shure S15. For unobtrusive, paint it black.


Note that the original square-legged S15 has been discontinued, and has
been replaced with a much flimsier tubular aluminum thing (which also weighs
more to carry around).

Wes Dooley is selling the original S15 stand from the same guys who OEMed it
for Shure, and he has it available in black too. It's not cheap at all,
though. But it's a very nice stand for a light mike pair.

Is that what they call their AEA-13HDB? If so, it's an Avenger A410B.

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.)


http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i
temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs.


I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise:
19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead
of
78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in
!!!
for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one)

Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many
situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer.

Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections.

I'd buy a pair of five section A410B in a heart beat if they made them.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...

The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.)


http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i
temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs.


I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise:
19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead
of
78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in
!!!
for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one)

Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many
situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer.

Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections.

I'd buy a pair of five section A410B in a heart beat if they made them.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be
mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis
and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar,
but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back
in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God
knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is
more of an issue from back there.

Ditto!

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be
mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis
and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar,
but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back
in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God
knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is
more of an issue from back there.

Ditto!

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

Richard Kuschel wrote:

Omnis pointing straight up is moderately weird as the off axis response is not
exactly the same as on- axis response.

Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose
cones.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

Richard Kuschel wrote:

Omnis pointing straight up is moderately weird as the off axis response is not
exactly the same as on- axis response.

Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose
cones.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

And where have you been, sir? I don't believe I've seen any posts from you
for at least a year.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Len Moskowitz" wrote in message
...

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be
mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis
and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar,
but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back
in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God
knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is
more of an issue from back there.

Ditto!

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

And where have you been, sir? I don't believe I've seen any posts from you
for at least a year.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Len Moskowitz" wrote in message
...

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be
mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis
and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar,
but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back
in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God
knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is
more of an issue from back there.

Ditto!

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

yup, they were nose cones. kind of looked like earthworks.


Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose
cones.

yup, they were nose cones. kind of looked like earthworks.


Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose
cones.

Kurt Albershardt wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I like the Avenger crank-ups, which are also sold by Bogen.

Do you have a model number? The only tall crank-ups I can find are things like the B150 (20' lift, holds 154 lbs. but weighs 156 lbs!)

No, I don't. Mine seems to be a "Trapeze" model from what I can see of the
somewhat beat-up lettering on the leg. It's probably around fifty pounds
and very stable. I got it in the early 1980s from KEH Camera in Atlanta
back when they still had a walk-in store, and it originally was sold the
first time by Calumet. I will check the Bogen catalogue and see if there
is anything comparable, although I do know that Calumet imports a somewhat
different selection of the Avenger and Manfrotto stuff than Bogen does and
they have different names for them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."