I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long
run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these
amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well
now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the
engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire
don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that
out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that
shouldn't be a problem?)
I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I
am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there.
So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if
so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short,
or just add the short and leave the long ones too?

Thanks,
Mike

kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis.

This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. What
matters is that the ground is sufficient. If you have 4 gauge from the
battery feeding your amp, then a 4 gauge to the battery for the ground
will be sufficient. But, it's an awful waste wire - the floorpan of most
cars has the equivalent of a double 0 gauge wire. Grounding to the cars
floor pan is more economical than paying a few bucks a foot for ground
wire to run all the way back to the battery.

And it's a long
run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these
amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did.

Sounds to me like he was trying to sell extra wire.

Well
now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the
engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire
don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that
out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that
shouldn't be a problem?)

Generally the whine you hear comes from a ground loop - a difference in
"ground potential". Basically, one componant in your system has a better
ground than another, either externally or due to a damaged componant
inside some of the equipment.

I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I
am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there.
So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if
so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short,
or just add the short and leave the long ones too?

Neither. May I interest you in some literature?

http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/rac-faq_2.html#SEC7

I would also help to know about the rest of your system. Is it an
aftermarket radio? If stock, are there Line Output Converters installed
(big source of noise).


--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis.

This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first
things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some.

BZZZZT

Length of ground is not important as long
as the amp has plenty of current...

Its common for installers to use a short ground and get
the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also
acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient
size to supply plenty of juice...

What installer school did you go to..??

Eddie Runner

Pug Fugley wrote:

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis.

This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first
things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some.

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
BZZZZT

Length of ground is not important as long
as the amp has plenty of current...

Its common for installers to use a short ground and get
the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also
acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient
size to supply plenty of juice...

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to
travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the
least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?




What installer school did you go to..??

A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix.





Eddie Runner

Pug Fugley wrote:

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and
since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis.

This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the
first
things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some.

"Pug Fugley" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
BZZZZT

Length of ground is not important as long
as the amp has plenty of current...

Its common for installers to use a short ground and get
the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also
acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient
size to supply plenty of juice...

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to
travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the
least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?


If the 20-foot length is connected to the battery terminal, and the 1-foot
to whatever's handy, I'll take my chances on the long one. Not every piece
of metal in the car is a good ground, and not all good amp-mounting
locations come with a good grounding point within one foot.





What installer school did you go to..??

A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix.





Eddie Runner

Pug Fugley wrote:

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and
since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted
to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but
he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read
numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis.

This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the
first
things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some.

"KaeZoo" wrote in message
...

"Pug Fugley" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
BZZZZT

Length of ground is not important as long
as the amp has plenty of current...

Its common for installers to use a short ground and get
the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also
acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient
size to supply plenty of juice...

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes
to
travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have
the
least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?


If the 20-foot length is connected to the battery terminal, and the 1-foot
to whatever's handy, I'll take my chances on the long one. Not every
piece
of metal in the car is a good ground, and not all good amp-mounting
locations come with a good grounding point within one foot.

Well, make it 2 feet then. Anything shorter than 20 feet will be better.

Pug Fugley wrote:
BZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first
things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some.

Where you gonna find a ground within 1 foot on a corvette? You're a
moron pug. The length of your ground wire doesn't matter as long as it
is of sufficient size (gauge). If you paid for installer classes, you
got ripped.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Pug Fugley wrote:

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to
travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the
least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?

Depends on the gauge. 20 feet of 4 gauge wire has lest resistance than 1
foot of 22 gauge wire.

What installer school did you go to..??


A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix.

I've seen the course material for MD. They don't teach the kind of
stupidity you're spewing. And the Phoenix school didn't exist 12 years
ago. So...somewhere you're lying your ass off.


--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

I would also help to know about the rest of your system. Is it an
aftermarket radio? If stock, are there Line Output Converters installed
(big source of noise).

HU is Alpine CDA-9813, front speakers component Polk DB6500, rear
doors Polk DB650, sub JL 12W7; all using RCA preouts. The JL 450/4
amp channels 1&2 running the front speakers, channels 3&4 rear; JL
500/1 the sub. No other signal processors, no cap.
I did notice tonight after playing around a bit that the noise is much
louder when the HU is turned off.

And it's a long
run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these
amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did.

Sounds to me like he was trying to sell extra wire.

He didn't charge for the wire specifically - the total was $225,
included the 3 miles of 4AWG wire, fuses, RCA's, speaker wire, and a
little staggered "tier" he custom made to mount the amps onto so they
both fit under one of the rear seats - it does look nice. The place
came recommended; there are 5 or 6 of that chain of shops in my area,
so it wasn't one of those "hey bud, I got a deal for you today" kind
of places.
They said bring it back tomorrow and they'll troubleshoot it.

Neither. May I interest you in some literature?
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/rac-faq_2.html#SEC7

I'll print the FAQ and bring it with - thanks.

Mike

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
Pug Fugley wrote:

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes
to
travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have
the
least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?

Depends on the gauge. 20 feet of 4 gauge wire has lest resistance than 1
foot of 22 gauge wire.

What installer school did you go to..??


A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix.

I've seen the course material for MD. They don't teach the kind of
stupidity you're spewing. And the Phoenix school didn't exist 12 years
ago. So...somewhere you're lying your ass off.

Never said I WENT there 12 years ago. Learn to read. I've been in the
INDUSTRY for 12 years. Didn't go to MD until much later.

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better.

bull****

you completely neglect the wire guage variable...

what installer school DID you go to?
--
sancho

Pug Fugley wrote:

Never said I WENT there 12 years ago. Learn to read. I've been in the
INDUSTRY for 12 years. Didn't go to MD until much later.

when did you go to md? and what'd you do before then? clean the
restrooms at a circuit city?
--
sancho

"sancho" wrote in message
...
Pug Fugley wrote:

Never said I WENT there 12 years ago. Learn to read. I've been in the
INDUSTRY for 12 years. Didn't go to MD until much later.

when did you go to md?

A few years ago. Why?


and what'd you do before then?

I banged your Mom for a while.

clean the
restrooms at a circuit city?

I wouldn't take your job. You're made for it.

"sancho" wrote in message
...

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better.

bull****

you completely neglect the wire gauge variable...

Learn to read. Wire gauges are the S A M E.

1 foot of 4 gauge has less resistance than 20 feet of 4 gauge, dumbass. It's
simple math.





what installer school DID you go to?

Mobile Dynamics..can you read?


--
sancho

The ground could be one of the problems. I have the 500/1 and I groun
it right to the seatbelt bolt and haven't had any problems at all. I
never even gets warm when playing really loud. Think about the groun
this way: there is much less resistance in grounding to the chassi
because the chassis acts as one really really really big wire b
utilizing the entire metal structure. Grounding back to the amp is jus
going to increase the resistance by having to run the entre wire th
length of the subburban. The only part of grounding to the chassis tha
is restrictive is where the negative battery wire connects to th
chassis, they often use thin gauge that is sufficient for the vehicl
if no upgrades are added. So, to answer your question, go ahead an
ground it to the chassis. Give it a try, if that doesn't work, we'l
find another solution
-
timboritu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...threadid=17837

speaking of being made for jobs.... is this why your mouth is so "purty"??


--
fhlh.....
this post was intended for usenet, if you are reading this post on a
webforum it is because someone has STOLEN it to use as content to draw
traffic to his site... please acquire a proper newsreader if you want to
access rec.audio.car and rethink your patronage of said site...
THIS SIG WAS STOLEN FROM SANCHO... **** it!


"Pug Fugley" wrote in message
link.net...


I wouldn't take your job. You're made for it.

"timboritus" wrote in
message s.com...
The ground could be one of the problems. I have the 500/1 and I ground
it right to the seatbelt bolt and haven't had any problems at all. It
never even gets warm when playing really loud. Think about the ground
this way: there is much less resistance in grounding to the chassis
because the chassis acts as one really really really big wire by
utilizing the entire metal structure. Grounding back to the amp is just
going to increase the resistance by having to run the entre wire the
length of the subburban. The only part of grounding to the chassis that
is restrictive is where the negative battery wire connects to the
chassis, they often use thin gauge that is sufficient for the vehicle
if no upgrades are added. So, to answer your question, go ahead and
ground it to the chassis. Give it a try, if that doesn't work, we'll
find another solution.
--
timboritus


Damn, finally someone around here with some sense.

true, but then why not shorten your power wire to 1ft
also??

Pug Fugley wrote:

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
BZZZZT

Length of ground is not important as long
as the amp has plenty of current...

Its common for installers to use a short ground and get
the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also
acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient
size to supply plenty of juice...

A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to
travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the
least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?


What installer school did you go to..??

A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix.


Eddie Runner

Pug Fugley wrote:

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and
since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis.

This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the
first
things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some.

Pug Fugley wrote:

What installer school did you go to..??

A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix.

Lots a money for nothing IMO....

I have had three installers that went there...

1st one, was working for me for a week or so, we were busy with
several customers... I instructed this installer to do a simple task and
I didnt think I needed to watch him closely cause he did goto a
fancy pants installer school.... I told him to get in this pick up that
was in the shop and pull the stereo out of it.... Figgured he could handle
that right..??

Later, the other installer and myself get done with the imediate things and
I goto check on the schooled installer... Where is he??? The truck he
was supposed to be working on is GONE!!!

Its not in the shop, we look outside and he is sitting in the truck relaxing!

WTF!!!!
What the hell are you doing out there....????

His reply. "You told me to pull it out.."

DUH!!
My other installer was laughing so hard he could hardy stand up...He said
Look what wasting your money on a GOOD installer school will get cha...
ha ha ha



Next guy (yearslater) I hired TWO guys that went to the school together..
Number 1 couldnt even wire a relay...
Number two was worse....

Need I say more..??


Eddie Runner

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
true, but then why not shorten your power wire to 1ft
also??

If it was 1 ft from the battery, I would.

Here's a reply I got from JL when I asked why the owners manual reccommended
short ground, but the installer was told otherwise:

Mike,

Thank you for your interest in JL Audio. In the owners manual, you are going
to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can
be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground
wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis
of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire,
there is no problem.

We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to
measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The best
are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want
the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to
upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side of
the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same
resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg.

This installer made sure that the ground return of the amplifiers do have
the least amount of resistance. This preventing any type of voltage choke.

There is no problem doing this. As long as it is done correct. In this case,
I am assuming it was.

Pug Fugley wrote:
"timboritus" wrote in
message s.com...

The ground could be one of the problems. I have the 500/1 and I ground
it right to the seatbelt bolt and haven't had any problems at all. It
never even gets warm when playing really loud. Think about the ground
this way: there is much less resistance in grounding to the chassis
because the chassis acts as one really really really big wire by
utilizing the entire metal structure. Grounding back to the amp is just
going to increase the resistance by having to run the entre wire the
length of the subburban. The only part of grounding to the chassis that
is restrictive is where the negative battery wire connects to the
chassis, they often use thin gauge that is sufficient for the vehicle
if no upgrades are added. So, to answer your question, go ahead and
ground it to the chassis. Give it a try, if that doesn't work, we'll
find another solution.
--
timboritus



Damn, finally someone around here with some sense.

You're a moron. He just pointed out that the floor pan was equivalent to
a large gauge wire. This in no way supports your stupidity that a
"short" ground wire is "better".

He also neglected to mention (though I'm sure it's on his mind) that you
should opt to upgrade the factory ground to a larger gauge.

Now, run along little man.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

news.dls.net wrote:
Here's a reply I got from JL when I asked why the owners manual reccommended
short ground, but the installer was told otherwise:

Sounds to me like he did his best not to call the installer "full of
****". But what he said was correct, and supports what I've been saying.
I suppose Pug ****ley is going to argue with JL tech support now.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden




Mike,

Thank you for your interest in JL Audio. In the owners manual, you are going
to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can
be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground
wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis
of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire,
there is no problem.

We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to
measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The best
are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want
the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to
upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side of
the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same
resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg.

This installer made sure that the ground return of the amplifiers do have
the least amount of resistance. This preventing any type of voltage choke.

There is no problem doing this. As long as it is done correct. In this case,
I am assuming it was.






..

"news.dls.net" wrote in message
...
Here's a reply I got from JL when I asked why the owners manual
reccommended
short ground, but the installer was told otherwise:

Mike,

Thank you for your interest in JL Audio. In the owners manual, you are
going
to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can
be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground
wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis
of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire,
there is no problem.

We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to
measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The
best
are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want
the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to
upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side
of
the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same
resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg.


Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to
keep the ground wire short.

When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with.

You are too much of a newbie ti remember when JL asked
me to rewrite thier web tutorials because of all the erors on them..

Pug Fugley wrote:

Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to
keep the ground wire short.

When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with.

I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I
have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. Keep it going. It
is quite helpful to boot.


"kkmike" wrote in message
om...
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long
run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these
amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well
now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the
engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire
don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that
out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that
shouldn't be a problem?)
I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I
am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there.
So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if
so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short,
or just add the short and leave the long ones too?

Thanks,
Mike

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
You are too much of a newbie ti remember when JL asked
me to rewrite thier web tutorials because of all the erors on them..

Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a
hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information.

You may remove your foot from your mouth now.












Pug Fugley wrote:

Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to
keep the ground wire short.

When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with.

"Douglas Conder" wrote in message
news:EVS%b.3631$3X2.1866@okepread04...
I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I
have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. Keep it going. It
is quite helpful to boot.

I think the problem is a lack of common sense. These morons around here get
too caught up in what the read in magazines and the internet and they don't
stop to think.

There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as
short as possible.







"kkmike" wrote in message
om...
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long
run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these
amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well
now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the
engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire
don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that
out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that
shouldn't be a problem?)
I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I
am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there.
So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if
so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short,
or just add the short and leave the long ones too?

Thanks,
Mike

is that sposed to impress me..??
I startedinstallin in 1974...
your still a newbie to me....

feel lucky we started this stuff for you so you
could build competition cars... ;-)

Pug Fugley wrote:

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
You are too much of a newbie ti remember when JL asked
me to rewrite thier web tutorials because of all the erors on them..

Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a
hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information.

You may remove your foot from your mouth now.


Pug Fugley wrote:

Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to
keep the ground wire short.

When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with.

Pug Fugley wrote:

Learn to read. Wire gauges are the S A M E.

" A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes
to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have
the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?"

that was the entirety of your argument... never do you mention
gauge...it is obvious that you gave it no mind...

as 20 feet of 1/0ga has markedly less resistance than 1 foot of 8ga for
example...


1 foot of 4 gauge has less resistance than 20 feet of 4 gauge, pug's a dumbass. It's
simple math.

that is glaringly obvious... much like your failure to specify was...

your answer was just plain wrong... a shorter ground is not inherently
better... a suggestion that you must increase the guage of the wire to
compensate for greater distance (like the competent folks were kind
enough to offer) would have been a proper response...
--
sancho

there could be if the car chassis near the amp
is old, rusty, or corroded....

Fact is, like I said in the beginning...
It doesnt matter where you ground it
or how long the ground wire is as long as it
is capable of handling enough current for the
amplifier.....

Eddie Runner

Pug Fugley wrote:

"Douglas Conder" wrote in message
news:EVS%b.3631$3X2.1866@okepread04...
I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I
have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. Keep it going. It
is quite helpful to boot.

I think the problem is a lack of common sense. These morons around here get
too caught up in what the read in magazines and the internet and they don't
stop to think.

There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as
short as possible.



"kkmike" wrote in message
om...
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to
run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he
also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous
times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long
run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these
amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well
now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the
engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire
don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that
out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that
shouldn't be a problem?)
I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I
am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there.
So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if
so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short,
or just add the short and leave the long ones too?

Thanks,
Mike

Pug Fugley wrote:

to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible.
This can
be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground
wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis
of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire,
there is no problem.

We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to
measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The

best

are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want
the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to
upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side

of

the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same
resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg.



Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to
keep the ground wire short.

holy ****... you just don't get it...

"You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then
grounding to the chassis of a vehicle."

"Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire.
Uni-bodies are like an 8awg."

READ, ****wit
--
sancho

Pug Fugley wrote:

Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a
hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information.

You may remove your foot from your mouth now.

i though you've only been in the industry for 12 years...

"I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years."

2004 - 12 = 1992

was 1992 in the 80's?
--
sancho
gettin confux0red

Pug Fugley wrote:

I think the problem is a lack of common sense.

yes, your lack of it...

These morons around here get
too caught up in what the read in magazines and the internet and they don't
stop to think.

There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as
short as possible.

you just claimed to agree with a post that stated

"This (running a ground to the battery) can be better then grounding to
the chassis of a vehicle"

and

"Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire.
Uni-bodies are like an 8awg."

humour me... which would be 'better'? a short ground to a unibody
chassis that equated to an 8ga run back to the battery or a run of 4 awg
back to the battery?

there's not one single good reason not to use a long ground wire of
sufficient gauge...
--
sancho

Pug Fugley wrote:

Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to
keep the ground wire short.

When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with.

You're a ****ing illiterate. From the letter

"You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then
grounding to the chassis of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as
large as the positive wire, there is no problem."

Go home little man.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Douglas Conder wrote:
I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I
have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong.

The problem is, the one person in this thread who disagrees with
everyone else has no facts to back himself up. But hey, the most
important thing is that you learn something.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

In article ,
Eddie Runner wrote:
there could be if the car chassis near the amp
is old, rusty, or corroded....

Fact is, like I said in the beginning...
It doesnt matter where you ground it
or how long the ground wire is as long as it
is capable of handling enough current for the
amplifier.....

.... when everything is working properly, anyway. You better hope that the
wire from the battery terminal to the vehicle chassis doesn't fall off or
develop a bad connection. Work out what the return path for the current from
the starter motor is in that scenario... You argued that one back in '95,
remember? And do you know about bridging amps yet? big grin

That said, I had noise (injector firing pulses, go figure) in the subs in my
own car. I had to run a return power wire from the amps back to the common
earth point for the system on the firewall to get rid of it. I have a wiring
diagram for the car so I went over all the loom earth points but all were
OK. There are some redundant earth paths in the loom, maybe one of them is
broken internally. I could probably have tracked it down eventually but
life's too short.

In Mike's case I'd try grounding the amps to the chassis and see what
happens. I'd also look very carefully at the wire from the battery to the
chassis / body - if it's small or has bad connections he's going to get
alternator noise appearing between the battery terminal and chassis. This
will go down the ground wire to the amps and back on the RCA shield to the
head unit and then to chassis. I suspect you know that very well, but I
haven't seen it expressed in a way useful to Mike so far in this thread.

And as for Pug's statement:

There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as
short as possible.

Sooner or later it'll bite you in the butt, Pug. You claim to have been
around car audio a long time, you ought to have learnt by now that there are
no absolute rules, apart from the One Rule: You can't break Ohm's Law and
get away with it.

--
Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand

Sancho, you always catch em liein about dates...

Hell 12 years, 4 years, its all so short a time
compared to how long I been doing it I would have never
noticed his discrepencies.... ha ha ha

Way to go Sancho

sancho wrote:
Pug Fugley wrote:

Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a
hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information.

You may remove your foot from your mouth now.


i though you've only been in the industry for 12 years...

"I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years."

2004 - 12 = 1992

was 1992 in the 80's?
--
sancho
gettin confux0red

Pug Fugley wrote:

I think the problem is a lack of common sense.

For once, you've got something right.

There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as
short as possible.

That wasn't the argument dipstick. You said "a short ground works
better". This is not the case. In fact, if you read the note from JL
tech, you'll realize that in some vehicles a short ground is detrimental
due to the construction of unibody vehicles utilising cold-rolled
double-steel sheet.

You also ignored the other obvious issues - that even if the chassis is
unimpeded, you still only have a measly 8 - 10 gauge factory ground from
the battery - terminal to the chassis - and on the fender at that.
Unless you upgrade the factory ground, jump it to the firewall, and
upgrade the factory + from the alternator to the voltage
regulator/battery, then you dinky 1 foot ground is worth ****. Just like
your overall knowledge of car audio.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.