[Arny Krueger]

Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html


Since we don't have vinyl bigots here, but simply people who appreciate what
vinyl often offers, technically your anser is no, there is NO vinyl bigot
here who can understand the article. :-)

On the other hand, I would guess that most people who appreciate vinyl and
have a decent vinyl playback system would find the article either a) not
surprising because they've already figured it out through experience, or b)
useful if they had not. Certainly those of us who have been involved in
high fidelity audio reproduction since the stereo LP's heyday would find not
surprises in the article. It is one of the reasons I use an Accuphase AC-2
with a Shibata-type stylus.

[Jenn[_3_]]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

Having never met an actual "vinyl bigot", it's difficult to know.

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Everybody, please have pity on Mister Krooger.

vinyl bigot

Poor widdle Kwooborg. The Normals have been devoting all of their mockery
to Witlessmongrel. Without the constant stream of 'slander' and 'personal
attacks' he's become accustomed to, the Krooborg doesn't feel 'alive'.

Every Normal who replies to this troll should award themselves a purple
star for charitableness.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 15, 8:03�am, George M. Middius
wrote:
Everybody, please have pity on Mister Krooger.

vinyl bigot

Poor widdle Kwooborg. The Normals have been devoting all of their mockery
to Witlessmongrel. Without the constant stream of 'slander' and 'personal
attacks' he's become accustomed to, the Krooborg doesn't feel 'alive'.

Every Normal who replies to this troll should award themselves a purple
star for charitableness.

If Arny had been communicating with Scott, he'd know the correct term
is vinyl biggott.

Boon

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Vinylanach said:

Every Normal who replies to this troll should award themselves a purple
star for charitableness.

If Arny had been communicating with Scott, he'd know the correct term
is vinyl biggott.

A lot you know. Scottie has stated that goud speling is for loosers.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 15, 8:07�am, George M. Middius
wrote:
Vinylanach said:

Every Normal who replies to this troll should award themselves a purple
star for charitableness.

If Arny had been communicating with Scott, he'd know the correct term
is vinyl biggott.

A lot you know. Scottie has stated that goud speling is for loosers.

Arny just calimed that good spelling is a debating trade trick as
well. Hoo nu?

Boon

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Sep 15, 10:07*am, George M. Middius
wrote:
Vinylanach said:

Every Normal who replies to this troll should award themselves a purple
star for charitableness.

If Arny had been communicating with Scott, he'd know the correct term
is vinyl biggott.

A lot you know. Scottie has stated that goud speling is for loosers.

He also has stated that there's no such thing as a well-written post
if it's about things he disagrees with.

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

Is it anything like a 'supernatural bigot'?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Jenn[_3_]]

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he considers to be
"vinyl bigots" but I never received an answer.

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Trevor Wilson said:

Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

**Define: "vinyl bigot".
Is it anything like a 'supernatural bigot'?

Arnii, in case you choose this moment to be obtuse, Trevor is mocking your
crazy religion.

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Jenn said:

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he considers to be
"vinyl bigots" but I never received an answer.

Arnii has a special Bigot-O-Meter implanted in his fecalization apparatus.
He doesn't need to speak their names out loud because he gets instant
feedback whenever he encounters one.

[Vinylanach]

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? Classic troll.

Boon

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Vinylanach said:

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? Classic troll.

I had a hand in that. To distract him, I sent him a box of Collector Turds
from the Turd Foundry. I'm sure he's oohing and ahhing and altogether
enraptured with his new batch.

[Bill[_16_]]

In article ,
says...


Vinylanach said:

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? Classic troll.

I had a hand in that. To distract him, I sent him a box of Collector Turds
from the Turd Foundry. I'm sure he's oohing and ahhing and altogether
enraptured with his new batch.

It's probably just as well. The last time he stuck around to "discuss"
something he was extraordinarily snotty.

--
Bill

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 16, 9:11�am, Bill wrote:
In article ,
says...



Vinylanach said:

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? �Classic troll.

I had a hand in that. To distract him, I sent him a box of Collector Turds
from the Turd Foundry. I'm sure he's oohing and ahhing and altogether
enraptured with his new batch.

It's probably just as well. The last time he stuck around to "discuss"
something he was extraordinarily snotty.

He also broke one of the Ten Commandments. One only hopes that he's
off someplace flogging himself.

Boon

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Vinylanach said:

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? ?Classic troll.

I had a hand in that. To distract him, I sent him a box of Collector Turds
from the Turd Foundry. I'm sure he's oohing and ahhing and altogether
enraptured with his new batch.

It's probably just as well. The last time he stuck around to "discuss"
something he was extraordinarily snotty.

He also broke one of the Ten Commandments. One only hopes that he's
off someplace flogging himself.

Ya think? That would be a shame. Mistress Jenn is always glad to flog the
Kroo for free.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 16, 10:44�am, George M. Middius
wrote:
Vinylanach said:

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? ?Classic troll.

I had a hand in that. To distract him, I sent him a box of Collector Turds
from the Turd Foundry. I'm sure he's oohing and ahhing and altogether
enraptured with his new batch.

It's probably just as well. The last time he stuck around to "discuss"
something he was extraordinarily snotty.

He also broke one of the Ten Commandments. �One only hopes that he's
off someplace flogging himself.

Ya think? That would be a shame. Mistress Jenn is always glad to flog the
Kroo for free.

Yes, but he'd break two more commandments at the very least.

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

Looks like two of RAOs' biggest ones are claiming ignorance.

Where's Boonie when you need him to fall over his feet again?

;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he
considers to be "vinyl bigots" but I never received an
answer.

Really Jenn, I never ever said that you were one of them? Well, you should
have been able to figure that our without my help, BTW. Or maybe you're
just pulling that old girlie trick, called playing dumb.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Sep 16, 3:12*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message



Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

Looks like two of RAOs' biggest ones are claiming ignorance.

Gosh, GOIA, did you ever consider that nobody cares?

Where's Boonie when you need him to fall over his feet again?

Was this aimed at Boon? Why was your question so general then, GOIA?
It should have said, "Boon, do you understand this article?"

;-)

Do you frequently wink at yourself. GOIA? That seems a little weird.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he
considers to be "vinyl bigots" but I never received an
answer.

Really Jenn, I never ever said that you were one of them?

Nope.

Well, you should
have been able to figure that our without my help, BTW.

Let's review the evidence:
I've consistently stated that,
1. I like the sound of some LPs
2. On average, I believe that CDs sound better
3. I buy far more CDs than LPs

And that, to you, makes me a "vinyl bigot".
Thanks for clearing that up.

Or maybe you're
just pulling that old girlie trick, called playing dumb.

Did you get enough slop this morning?

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Vinylanach said:

He also broke one of the Ten Commandments. ?One only hopes that he's
off someplace flogging himself.

Ya think? That would be a shame. Mistress Jenn is always glad to flog the
Kroo for free.

Yes, but he'd break two more commandments at the very least.

You task me, sir.


**********

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

Nobody knows how many bizarre worship rituals the Kroo engages in, but he
can get his floggings independently of idolatry.

**********

2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the earth.

Lots o' babble there, but not relevant to flogging.

**********

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

Do you know for a fact that the Kroo cries out to God in the throes of
ecstatic torture? If not, no breakage.

**********

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Didn't nobody say nothing about no whuppin' on the Sabbath.

**********

5. Honor your father and your mother.

This one is pretty vague, but a direct connection between flogging and
motherhood is quite a stretch.

**********

6. You shall not murder.

Does this apply to the Krooborg? We don't know even know what his current
species is.

**********

7. You shall not commit adultery.

That one is usually taken as referring to actual intercourse, not
foreplay.

**********

8. You shall not steal.

It's not stealing if Mistress metes it out for free.

**********

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

snicker

**********

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your
neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox,
nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

Coveting is one of the Kroo's big hobbies, maybe the biggest. But he can
get his flogging without using his Mastercard.

**********


You'll have to spell it out. I don't see it. Sorry for being such a poor
Judaeo-Christian Jew.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 16, 1:12�pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message



Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

Looks like two of RAOs' biggest ones are claiming ignorance.

Where's Boonie when you need him to fall over his feet again?

;-)

Waiting for you to admit that you sinned against me.

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

"Bill" wrote in message
t

In article ,
i.clean.barns.with.my.tongue says...

Vinylanach said:

Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? Classic troll.

Classic lie. I make a post on the 15th, and don't post again until the 16th.
Checking in once a day is "Bowing Out"?

Boonie tried to pass this same lie off a couple of days ago, and
back-pedaled furiously when I caught him red-handed.

What do we call Boonies numerous multi-month absences?

snip the usual crap from the well-known coprophiliac.

It's probably just as well.

Dream on, dude.

The last time he stuck around to "discuss" something he was
extraordinarily snotty.

Just impatient with the level of idiocy around here.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 16, 1:25�pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
Vinylanach said:

He also broke one of the Ten Commandments. ?One only hopes that he's
off someplace flogging himself.

Ya think? That would be a shame. Mistress Jenn is always glad to flog the
Kroo for free.

Yes, but he'd break two more commandments at the very least.

You task me, sir.

**********

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

Nobody knows how many bizarre worship rituals the Kroo engages in, but he
can get his floggings independently of idolatry.

**********

2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the earth.

Lots o' babble there, but not relevant to flogging.

**********

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

Do you know for a fact that the Kroo cries out to God in the throes of
ecstatic torture? If not, no breakage.

**********

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Didn't nobody say nothing about no whuppin' on the Sabbath.

**********

5. Honor your father and your mother.

This one is pretty vague, but a direct connection between flogging and
motherhood is quite a stretch.

**********

6. You shall not murder.

Does this apply to the Krooborg? We don't know even know what his current
species is.

**********

7. You shall not commit adultery.

That one is usually taken as referring to actual intercourse, not
foreplay.

**********

8. You shall not steal.

It's not stealing if Mistress metes it out for free.

**********

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

snicker

**********

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your
neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox,
nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

Coveting is one of the Kroo's big hobbies, maybe the biggest. But he can
get his flogging without using his Mastercard.

**********

You'll have to spell it out. I don't see it. Sorry for being such a poor
Judaeo-Christian Jew.

Well, we know he bears false witness against his neighbor...I proved
it last week. The big one would be "thall shall not lie"...most of us
here have caught Arny in a lie at least a couple of times. Those are
the two easy ones, but as George Carlin said, these can be easily
combined into one. Arny covets in the same way that all audio have-
nots do...his primal screams of "Snake oil!" are merely his way of
saying "I covet this gear and wish I could afford it, and I covet the
hearing of those who can appreciate it."

As for murder, I'm sure he killed the hopes and dreams of his family
when he decided to spend his life trolling on the Internet. Paul
Dormer has said that Arny stole ideas to make the ABX Comparator Box.
We've caught Arny sinning (lying and bearing false witness) on the
Sabbath. Can't speak for the way he treats his parents, although I'm
sure they were/are ashamed of him. The idol worship I'll throw back
to you.

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this
article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he
considers to be "vinyl bigots" but I never received an
answer.

Really Jenn, I never ever said that you were one of them?

Nope.

Well, you should
have been able to figure that our without my help, BTW.

Let's review the evidence:
I've consistently stated that,

1. I like the sound of some LPs

Thanks Jenn for admitting that you're either stone deaf or a hysterical
vinyl bigot.

2. On average, I believe that CDs sound better.

Good, sanity is striking at least occasionally.

3. I buy far more CDs than LPs

You want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

And that, to you, makes me a "vinyl bigot".
Thanks for clearing that up.

Why did I have to clear that up, Jenn?

You couldn't figure this out on your own?

Or maybe you're
just pulling that old girlie trick, called playing dumb.

Did you get enough slop this morning?

No Jenn, I don't eat at your kitchen.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 16, 2:49�pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

t

In article ,
i.clean.barns.with.my.tongue says...
Vinylanach said:
Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? �Classic troll.

Classic lie. I make a post on the 15th, and don't post again until the 16th.
Checking in once a day is "Bowing Out"?

Well, you start a thread, and you don't even comment on what people
are saying about it until someone mentions it's a troll. Again,
classic troll behavior.


Boonie tried to pass this same lie off a couple of days ago, and
back-pedaled furiously when I caught him red-handed.

Red-handed? Back-pedaled? I actually said you were right. LOL!


What do we call Boonies numerous multi-month absences?

Not being addicted to the Internet? Having other things to do? Being
a normal, productive human being with a job, a family, hobbies and
interests?


snip the usual crap from the well-known coprophiliac.

It's probably just as well.

Dream on, dude.

The last time he stuck around to "discuss" something he was
extraordinarily snotty.

Just impatient with the level of idiocy around here.

Well, I'm sure we'd all love to see you **** off for good. Don't let
us stop you.

Boon

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

Looks like two of RAOs' biggest ones are claiming ignorance.

Where's Boonie when you need him to fall over his feet again?

;-)

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

Is it anything like a 'supernatural bigot'?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he
considers to be "vinyl bigots" but I never received an
answer.

Really Jenn, I never ever said that you were one of them? Well, you should
have been able to figure that our without my help, BTW. Or maybe you're
just pulling that old girlie trick, called playing dumb.


**Define: "vinyl bigot".

Is it anything like a 'supernatural bigot'?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Is there a vinyl bigot who can understand this
article?

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

**Define: "vinyl bigot".

I've asked Arny to identify those in this group whom he
considers to be "vinyl bigots" but I never received an
answer.

Really Jenn, I never ever said that you were one of them?

Nope.

Well, you should
have been able to figure that our without my help, BTW.

Let's review the evidence:
I've consistently stated that,

1. I like the sound of some LPs

Thanks Jenn for admitting that you're either stone deaf or a hysterical
vinyl bigot.

Do you understand that you are often a parody of yourself?


2. On average, I believe that CDs sound better.

Good, sanity is striking at least occasionally.

3. I buy far more CDs than LPs

You want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

Stay away from my chest.


And that, to you, makes me a "vinyl bigot".
Thanks for clearing that up.

Why did I have to clear that up, Jenn?

Because normal people don't consider others who hold slightly different
views than themselves to be "bigots".


You couldn't figure this out on your own?

What, your pathology?


Or maybe you're
just pulling that old girlie trick, called playing dumb.

Did you get enough slop this morning?

No Jenn, I don't eat at your kitchen.

We don't allow pigs, including the male chauvinist variety, at our
table.

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Jenn said:

No Jenn, I don't eat at your kitchen.

We don't allow pigs, including the male chauvinist variety, at our
table.

Arnii was being truthful for once. If you want to extend some hospitality
to FilthyPigBorg, here's a sample of what he's accustomed to:

http://www.geocities.com/glanbrok/RA...g_the_Kroo.jpg

[Clyde Slick]

On 16 Sep, 18:54, Jenn wrote:



We don't allow pigs, including the male chauvinist variety, at our
table.-

Not even "pigs with lipstick"?

[Clyde Slick]

On 16 Sep, 19:29, George M. Middius wrote:
Jenn said:

No Jenn, I don't eat at your kitchen.

We don't allow pigs, including the male chauvinist variety, at our
table.

Arnii was being truthful for once. If you want to extend some hospitality
to FilthyPigBorg, here's a sample of what he's accustomed to:

http://www.geocities.com/glanbrok/RA...g_the_Kroo.jpg

I bet the lady with the hoe could administer a nice spanking
to the Kroobutt.

[BretLudwig]

((I don't see any bigotness here. Point it out, Arny.))


Around the Bend

In my previous two Investigations into LP I produced a simple model which
predicted the maximum signal levels we might expect from a Vinyl LP, and
then collected some measured results. The measured velocities agreed
neatly with the theory. But the measured acceleration levels seemed much
lower than predicted. So what might explain this discrepancy? Can we get
an explanation by taking a closer look at the vital link €“ the shapes of
the groove and playback stylus? What additional restraints might these
impose on the signals?

Fig1.gif - 25Kb

Figure 1 illustrates the shapes of the original stylii and groove as they
were defined back in the 1950s and 1960s when the stereo LP became a
commercial reality. The drawings in Figure 1 are to scale, and show the
view looking along the groove. The groove is the familiar €˜Vee cut€�,
but the original microgroove specification was that at the bottom of the
groove there would be a rounded €˜valley with a radius of about 6·25
microns. (Note that all the early dimensions were in thousandths of an
inch, but I am converting them all to metric as that makes them easier to
deal with when considered along with other quantities like velocities in
cm/sec!)

The original microgroove LP stylus was nominally defined to be a cone with
an included total angle of 40 - 50 degrees, with a spherical tip of 25
microns radius. The stereo stylus was defined to have a smaller tip radius
of half the mono value €“ i.e. 12·5 microns radius. In reality, though,
the actual details of both the LP groove and the stylus tip would vary
from one maker to another, and even one LP/stylus to the next. Some stylii
were also made with tip radii midway between 25 and 12·5 microns in order
to behave more like a traditional stylus when playing monophonic LPs.

Comparing the mono and stereo stylii shown in Figure 1 we can see that the
contact points for the stereo tip sit lower down the groove walls as a
result of the smaller tip radius. This gives more vertical distance for
upwards vertical modulation. The mono stylus sits relatively close to the
tops of the groove walls, and it would be difficult for it to track any
vertical displacements without popping out of the top of the groove. Note
also that €“ because of the way the spherical tip sits in the groove €“
the distance between the two contact points isnt equal to double the
value of the tip radius. Instead, the contact points are spaced apart by a
distance that is just over 40 percent more than the tip radius.

Fig2.gif - 33Kb

Figure 2 represents what we might see if looked directly downwards into
the groove and could see the stylus tip. Here the blue circle represents
the cross-section though the spherical tip at the depth where it contacts
the groove walls, and broken red lines show how the intended contact
points follow the walls. For this scale illustration I assumed the
recording is of a 4kHz sinewave tone whose amplitude corresponds to the
RIAA 0dB level, and that the modulation is in the horizontal plane. i.e.
the output should be the same from both loudspeakers, and at the same
level as the 0dB 1kHz reference once RIAA correction has been applied. The
figure also shows a cross-section though the shape of the cutter used to
cut the groove. The cutter is essentially a triangular chisel which has a
flat vertical front face. But the cutting edges are not absolutely sharp.
Instead they have a radius of a few microns. Viewed from the front, the
cutter forms the shape of the groove, including the valley rounding at the
bottom.

Fig3.gif - 36Kb

Figure 3 is similar to Figure 2, but now the signal is a 20 kHz tone at
the 0dB level. This means that the distance between the peaks of the
cycles of wall displacement are much closer together and the curvature is
much more pronounced than the 4 kHz example. Looking at this example we
can quickly see that there is a problem. Measured along a direction
towards the center of the LP, the two broken red lines that show the
intended contact points are always the same distance apart everywhere
along the groove. However, because of the shape of the stylus, its actual
contact points wont always share this line to the center of the disc.
As the result the contact points seem to the stylus to €˜pinch
together when the modulation velocity is high. This shows up in Figure
3 where we can see that the broken red lines both seem to come into the
circle that represents the spherical tip.

In practice what happens is simple. The stylus €˜rides up in the
groove until a part of the sphere closer to the tip is in contact with the
walls. In effect, the circle of the stylus in contact gets smaller to suit
the modulation. This behaviour is, for obvious reasons, called €œPinch
Effect€�. It allows the stylus to go on playing the groove, but it is
actually bad news. The cause is that the playback stylus differs in shape
from the cutter. The unwanted vertical movements produced by pinch effect
are a source of distortion Of course, if we were replaying a monophonic LP
we could deal with this problem by pressing a €˜mono button (if we have
one!) on our preamp. This will then suppress any output caused by the
unwanted vertical movements. Alas, that isnt much use when we want to
listen to a stereo LP in stereo...

We can see how it may be possible to reduce the effect when using a stereo
system by looking again at Figure 3. In addition to our original spherical
stylus I have also shown another one with an elliptical tip. For the sake
of illustration Ive drawn one whose aspect ratio is 0·5:1. In effect,
I have imagined simply squashing our original stereo spherical stylus by a
factor of two along the direction of travel. If you compare this with the
sphere you can see that this significantly reduces the amount of pinch
effect. This is one of the main reasons elliptical €“ and other types of
non-spherical €“ stylii became popular.

Fig4.gif - 41Kb

This isnt the only advantage of using a non-spherical stylus shape, as
can be seen from Figure 4. Here I have used the same modulation as Figure
3, but now recorded at the end of the LP side where the cutting velocity
is at its slowest. The result is to scrunch up the waveform with the
results shown. Here we can see another problem. The €˜corners of the
curves in the groove walls now have quite a sharp curvature. Too sharp for
our 0·5:1 ellipse to reach completely into each corner. To deal with this
we have to make the curvature of the parts of the stylus that contact the
walls even tighter. This is represented in Figure 4 by the second ellipse
which has a 0·1:1 ratio, and now can just fit into the corners of the
wall modulations. In fact, the curvature of the corners is directly
related to two factors €“ the peak acceleration being applied to the
stylus by the recorded waveforms, and the cutting/replay velocity due to
disc rotation. We can represent the sharpness of the curvature by the
radius of a sphere that would just fit into the corners and manage to
reach the parts a larger shape could not touch.

In practice, if you look at the descriptions makers give of their stylii
you will see various terms like €˜elliptical, €˜bi-radial, €˜line
contact, €˜micro-ridge, and various names like €˜Shibata, €˜van
den Hul, etc. In each case the interest is in the shape and size of the
contact between stylus and groove walls, and one of the main factors is
the effective radius of curvature along the direction of travel. (This is
often called the €˜minor radius of the shape.) This needs to be small
enough for the stylus to reach into the corners of all the bends in the
groove walls it encounters.

Fig5.gif - 26Kb

This leads to the question: How small does the tip radius have to be to be
able to track a given acceleration? Figure 5 shows the answer to this
question. The red line shows the maximum tip radius which would fit into
the corners of the modulation at the end of the LP side. The blue line
shows the results for the start of the LP side. We can see from this that
a tip radius of curvature of around 5 microns would be sufficient to track
accelerations up to just over 1000g at any place on the LP. But that wed
need a tip curvature with a radius of only about 1 micron to track the
level of over 6000g required for a 0dB 20kHz signal if it occurred at the
end of the LP side!

The good news, of course, is that real music has little in common with a
0dB 20 kHz sinewave. Indeed, if the cutter had an edge curvature of the
order of 2 microns then it would have had trouble cutting accelerations
around 3000 gravities or more (-6dB at 20 kHz) at the end of the LP side.
Also, in practice those who cut a given LP may well have taken care not to
cut high accelerations because they feared that most users would then be
unable to play the results! Looking back at the results in last months
article we found that the largest peak accelerations observed were around
1000g. By using these results we can now assess what the demands may be on
a replay stylus. Here I will take the Shure V15/IIIMR I used for the
results in my previous article as an example. In the past, Shure gave a
great deal of detailed info on their cartridges, so I can now compare this
with the above, and the observed results to see what the various
specifications mean in practice. This is useful as a way of seeing what
would be required for any other stylus/cartridge to play the same LPs.

Table 1 - Data for Shure V15/III
Frequency 400 Hz 500 Hz 2 kHz 5 kHz 8 kHz 10 kHz 20 kHz
max velocity (cm/s) 26 30 38 35 30 26 10
Ref RIAA (dB) +18 +18 +15 +8·75 +3·5 +0·5 -13·5
acceleration (g) 66·5 96 487 1120 1535 1665 1281
end-side tip radius (microns) 88·3 61·2 12·0 5·2 3·8 3·5
4·6
max tip mass (mg) 11·3 10·4 2·0 0·9 0·6 0·6 0·8


The top two rows of values in Table 1 are taken from Shure literature and
some of the reviews that were published when the V15/III was released.
Shure used to publish €˜trackability graphs, etc, that showed the peak
modulation velocities their cartridges could track. The data shown is for a
playing weigh of 1 gram. Knowing the velocity and frequency we can
calculate the acceleration required. Then use this to work out the maximum
allowed stylus curvature and tip mass which would allow the stylus to
perform as specified. Shure themselves claimed that their V15/III stylii
had a tip mass of no more than 0·4 milligrams. Their chief engineer of
the time also wrote an article that appeared in Hi Fi News[1]. This said
that they had surveyed a number of LPs and that the highest accelerations
they could find were around 1500g, so they designed the V15 series to
track these discs. From the values in the above table we can see that the
requirements include a tip mass of less than or equal to 0·6 milligrams
and a minor radius of less than or equal to 3·5 microns. If the V15/III
stylus had a higher mass or radius it would be unable to perform as
specified across the frequency range and right to the end of an LP side.

In fact although the Shure VN35MR stylus for the V15/III had a €˜Micro
Ridge with a claimed radius of 3·5 microns, earlier stylii had larger
contact radius values. For example the VN35E was an elliptical shape with
a minor radius of 5 microns. The measurements Shure quoted were often
obtained using 45 rpm test discs, and using test tones recorded well away
from the end-of-side region. Increasing the rotation rate from 33 to 45
rpm stretches the modulation out along the groove, reducing the curvature
of the bends. At the end of an LP side it means that a stylus contact
radius of 4·7 microns would allow the V15/III to fully meet its
specifications.

And as you can see from Figure 5, if we keep away from the end of the LP
side we dont need such a small tip radius. So although the VM35MR shape
might have coped with 1500g accelerations right up to the end of side, the
VN35E and some of the earlier shapes may not.

Overall, the above tells us that if we wish to be able to play real-world
LPs without mistracking we really need a tip mass of around half a
milligram or less, and a minor radius of curvature (or equivalent) of
around 3-4 microns or less. Larger values may be fine for most of the
playing time of most discs, but could run into trouble in extreme cases.
In theory, even lower masses and curvatures may seem desirable, but in
practice they may only be needed for test tones, not music. Indeed, the
cutter used to create the groove shape may have had an effective contact
radius of a few microns, so it simply makes no sense to try to reach a
stylus radius smaller than this. More extreme modulation may simple never
appear on real-world discs of music. Although who knows, maybe it does €“
at least up until it is played for the first time!...

So although theory tells us wed need to cope with 6000g and very tight
curves to obtain a 0dB 20kHz test tone, the reality seems to be that
practical LPs of music dont normally have modulations which reach such
extreme levels. This agrees with the results in the previous article and
explains the difference between the theoretical requirements and reality!

Having reached that conclusion, though, I should finish by pointing out
that there are some €œdogs that did not bark in the night€� which I
havent yet investigated. These are distortion, which I have not looked
at in any detail, and the specific problem of the groove wall deforming
under the pressures required to accelerate the stylus. It is one thing to
be able to play the LP. But something else for the result to have high
fidelity! I hope to investigate these sometime in the future.

Jim Lesurf
3rd Dec 2007

[1] Trackability. J. H. Kogen Hi Fi News November 1966 pp 586 - 592"

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html

--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutaudio.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/
More information at http://www.talkaboutaudio.com/faq.html

[Arny Krueger]

"Vinylanach" wrote in message

On Sep 16, 2:49?pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

t

In article ,
i.clean.barns.with.my.tongue says...
Vinylanach said:
Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? ?Classic troll.

Classic lie. I make a post on the 15th, and don't post
again until the 16th. Checking in once a day is "Bowing
Out"?

Well, you start a thread, and you don't even comment on
what people are saying about it until someone mentions
it's a troll.

Your expectations are totally from out-of-space, Boonie. Just because I'm
not you, and don't stay logged on breathlessly waiting for someone to reply,
I'm somehow deficient? GMAB!

Again, classic troll behavior.

No classic I-have-a-life-outside Usenet.

Boonie tried to pass this same lie off a couple of days
ago, and back-pedaled furiously when I caught him
red-handed.

Red-handed? Back-pedaled? I actually said you were
right. LOL!

No Joke. I did catch you red-handed, I caught you so thoroughly that you had
to back-pedal and admit that I was right. I can't imagine the pain you
suffered in that experience.

What do we call Boonies numerous multi-month absences?

Not being addicted to the Internet?

So now you're faulting me for *not* being addicted to Usenet (note that
again Boonie reveals his ignorance, this time by confusing Usenet and the
Internet. The former pre-existed the latter by a decade or more, but
apparently Boonie doesn't know that.)

Having other things
to do? Being a normal, productive human being with a
job, a family, hobbies and interests?

Boonie, since you're the one sitting on his PC, clicking refresh until I
respond, what does that make you?

snip the usual crap from the well-known coprophiliac.

It's probably just as well.

Dream on, dude.

The last time he stuck around to "discuss" something he
was extraordinarily snotty.

Just impatient with the level of idiocy around here.

Well, I'm sure we'd all love to see you **** off for
good.

All the idiots say that. Nothing like having a sane person drop in from time
to time to make them feel bad for being idiots.

Don't let us stop you.

Stop being so much fun and so easy to manipulate, and I'll consider it. ;-)

LOL!



Boon

[Clyde Slick]

On 17 Sep, 09:34, "Arny Krueger" wrote:


Boonie, since you're the one sitting on his PC, clicking refresh until I
respond, what does that make you?


A most 'refreshing' alternative to you.

[Vinylanach]

On Sep 17, 6:34�am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Vinylanach" wrote in message







On Sep 16, 2:49?pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

. net

In article ,
i.clean.barns.with.my.tongue says...
Vinylanach said:
Notice how Arny bowed out of this one? ?Classic troll.

Classic lie. I make a post on the 15th, and don't post
again until the 16th. Checking in once a day is "Bowing
Out"?
Well, you start a thread, and you don't even comment on
what people are saying about it until someone mentions
it's a troll.

Your expectations are totally from out-of-space, Boonie. Just because I'm
not you, and don't stay logged on breathlessly waiting for someone to reply,
I'm somehow deficient? GMAB!

Wait...you complain that I disappear for months, yet now I'm logged on
all the time waiting breathlesly for a reply? I really think you need
to show your posts to Susan before you click "send." She can prevent
you from looking like a total idiot.


�Again, classic troll behavior.

No classic I-have-a-life-outside Usenet.

No...it's just good manners to reply to the first couple of posts when
you start a thread. It shows that you care about what you posted, and
that you're starting a genuine discussion, not a troll.


Boonie tried to pass this same lie off a couple of days
ago, and back-pedaled furiously when I caught him
red-handed.
Red-handed? �Back-pedaled? �I actually said you were
right. �LOL!

No Joke. I did catch you red-handed, I caught you so thoroughly that you had
to back-pedal and admit that I was right. I can't imagine the pain you
suffered in that experience.

Neither can I. There was no pain on my part. But because you've been
avoiding the fact that I keep calling you on your sin of bearing false
witness against me, I can only deduce that you're hopelessly
conflicted. The pain is obviously all yours.


What do we call Boonies numerous multi-month absences?
Not being addicted to the Internet?

So now you're faulting me for *not* being addicted to Usenet (note that
again Boonie reveals his ignorance, this time by confusing Usenet and �the
Internet. The former pre-existed the latter by a decade or more, but
apparently Boonie doesn't know that.)

Straw man. We're talking about now, not 15 or 20 years ago. And only
a true Internet geek would make that distinction.


Having other things
to do? �Being a normal, productive human being with a
job, a family, hobbies and interests?

Boonie, since you're the one sitting on his PC, clicking refresh until I
respond, what does that make you?

That would be your fantasy, not the truth. Bearing false witness, in
other words. You've sinned again! LOL!


snip the usual crap from the well-known coprophiliac.

It's probably just as well.

Dream on, dude.
The last time he stuck around to "discuss" something he
was extraordinarily snotty.
Just impatient with the level of idiocy around here.
Well, I'm sure we'd all love to see you **** off for
good.

All the idiots say that. Nothing like having a sane person drop in from time
to time to make them feel bad for being idiots.

You know what's even better? An obviously deluded individual who
serves as a punching bag for the others. After a stressful day, we
can look at RAO and say "Well, it could be worse...I could be that
sick **** Krueger." Then we can get you to spin and twirl anyway we
want. It's like shooting at those little cardboard ducks at the
carnival. That's the reality of your life. No one takes you
seriously, you toil away in obscurity, and oblivion is just a few
years away for you. Kudos, "sane" person!


Don't let us stop you.

Stop being so much fun and so easy to manipulate, and I'll consider it. ;-)

It's just satisfying to know that by your own deluded rules, you're
going to be eternally damned for your behavior here. But then again,
you probably just do the church thing to make Susan happy. You don't
actually believe in any of that ****, do you.

Boon

[Clyde Slick]

On Sep 17, 11:02*am, Vinylanach wrote:


You know what's even better? *An obviously deluded individual who
serves as a punching bag for the others. *After a stressful day, we
can look at RAO and say "Well, it could be worse...I could be that
sick **** Krueger." *Then we can get you to spin and twirl anyway we
want. *It's like shooting at those little cardboard ducks at the
carnival. *That's the reality of your life. *No one takes you
seriously, you toil away in obscurity, and oblivion is just a few
years away for you. *Kudos, "sane" person!

"at least' your barrel isn't bent.