[MOSFET]

A friend recently gave me this months copy of CA&E. I used to subscribe but
stopped my subscription about 8 years ago when the magazine got noticeably
"thinner" (a trend we see with many magazines, I know "Playboy" may have
started this many years before).

Anyway, I couldn't help but notice on the front cover a new subwoofer system
Alpine built, the PLV-7. I was immediately fascinated by it (7 woofers
combined into one large woofer all in a VERY small box) and wanted to know
how it worked (it kind of looks like a jet engine) . For more info, go to:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/prod...hp?model=PLV-7

You see, in the car audio world, there are products that have changed quite
a bit over the years and products that have not. The HU being at the top of
the list of those that have changed a lot. With their LCD/multi-color
screens most don't LOOK like the HU's of 15 years ago and they also don't
OPERATE like the HU's of 15 years ago. It used to be that you had to buy
outboard X-overs, EQ's, line-drivers, time-delay units, sound enhancers,
noise-gates, etc.. But now, all of these functions can be found on HU's.
Also, the variety of software that the modern HU can play has increased.
Almost all of today's HU's play discs burned with MP3 files and more and
more also have DVD capability, SAT radio capability, some even have flash
memory card slots, etc..

The amplifier has changed as well, though not as radically as the HU. New
technologies like Class D, Class T and so on have increased the efficiency
of today's amps and also reduced the size of today's amplifiers. Even the
good old Class AB amp is both cheaper, more powerful, and smaller than it's
counterpart 15 years ago (this is again due to technology upgrades that are
no doubt countless and beyond my rudimentary understanding).

But the one piece of gear that has changed perhaps the least is the good old
speaker. Sure, you can put all the chrome you want on some of these beasts
but the operating principal is no different than it was 20, 30, 40 years
ago: a voice coil surrounding a former attached to a cone that moves up and
down in a magnetic field (created by the magnet), AC current is applied to
the coil and we have up and down movement of the cone and this movement is
what produces sound. Sure, there are minor advances here and there, but the
principal remains basically the same.

So I am particularly interested when someone comes along with a variation
(or departure) from that theme. A good example of this was Phoenix Gold's
"Cyclone". Maybe some of you old-timers will remember this, but the Cyclone
was VERY DIFFERENT than traditional subwoofers (with a capital "D"). I
happened to be working at Phoenix Gold while we were still selling the
Cyclone (though we had stopped manufacturing it) and I was absolutely
fascinated by this subwoofer. Though it did have it's flaws (no output
below it's resonating frequency), it was a VERY BOLD offering and was VERY
competent within it's operating frequency range.

I was also very interested in servo controlled subs. In these, a computer
would help control the motion of the cone to maximize efficiency (I am no
engineer so if the explanation is a little off, please excuse me). I also
am excited about the technology that allows basically ANY material or
surface (that can resonate at least a little) to "become" a speaker by
applying a small resonating unit. I don't know where they are in
development of this but the possibilities in car audio are very exciting
(your entire dash could become, in effect, the speaker).

I also think some of today's monster subs like JL's W7 represent a departure
from the ordinary simply because of the incredible excursion offered by
subwoofers of this class, even though it does operate like a typical
subwoofer.

Getting back to the original topic, yet again, we see a radical departure
from the norm in Alpine's PLV-7. I was curious if anyone has used the
PLV-7 yet and is it as impressive as Mark Holdaway seems to think it is?

It certainly looks and functions differently. And in the world of speakers,
that's saying A LOT!!!

MOSFET

[Tony F]

In short, Nick, I think you should buy it because it looks cool. It doesn't
have the woofer baskets exposed like you like it, but it's NEW and I know
how you love to be an early adopter!!! LOL

Tony


--
2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[smoove]

The concept of the PL-7 is pretty cool by design. I would like to hear one
for myself. The one thing I don't like about it is that you need to buy the
specially programmed amp to go with it. I can't use an existing amp.

"Tony F" wrote in message
...
In short, Nick, I think you should buy it because it looks cool. It
doesn't have the woofer baskets exposed like you like it, but it's NEW and
I know how you love to be an early adopter!!! LOL

Tony


--
2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[MOSFET]

"smoove" wrote in message
...
The concept of the PL-7 is pretty cool by design. I would like to hear one
for myself. The one thing I don't like about it is that you need to buy
the
specially programmed amp to go with it. I can't use an existing amp.

I agree. If Alpine were smart, they would design one WITHOUT the built in
amp.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

"Tony F" wrote in message
...
In short, Nick, I think you should buy it because it looks cool. It
doesn't
have the woofer baskets exposed like you like it, but it's NEW and I know
how you love to be an early adopter!!! LOL

Tony

Frankly, I wouldn't mind using a pair of those suckers AT ALL!!

But for now, I'm afraid I'm stuck with my backwards facing MTX subs (which I
happen to adore, BTW). However, I have been shopping for a new sub amp.
I've pretty much narrowed the field to a Class D MTX or Alpine. I've been
bidding like mad on eBay on amps like the MTX 1501, MTX 8100D or the Alpine
MRD-M1005 (I think I have the model numbers right).

Now's the time (winter) to look for good deals on car audio gear on Ebay and
my car's poor little stock alternator can barely keep up as it is, a Class D
would certainly help.



Nick

[John]

Mosfet, good discussion on the new product. With the part of your text
below that I quoted though, I disagree. I think Alpine is smart, that
is why they designed it with an amplifier. That way, if it is properly
designed, they should not have to deal with as many warranty issues
like blown speakers, not to mention they can charge more for the
product. That is the same reason why their head units need costly
accessories for things like ipod control, satellite radio, usb, and
even a simple accessory input rather than having them simply out of the
box ready and integrated. Also, most people, off the top of their head,
have no clue as to how to wire 7 speakers together into a proper mono
load.

The part I find the most interesting is the amp actually. Take a look
at the actual design of it. It resembles a home audio plate amp more
than any common automotive audio amplifier. Another thing that this amp
offers, and that a number of their older other amp models offered, is
speaker line level input and outputs in addition to RCA. Very helpful
for the person who wants to add bass without spending more money and
going through more work than other alternatives require.

I agree. If Alpine were smart, they would design one
WITHOUT the built in
amp.

MOSFET


--
John

[MOSFET]

I see your point and do agree with what you said. Perhaps I should have
clarified and said that Alpine should have offered a non-amplified version
as well. I didn't mean that the integrated amp was a bad idea (oops, double
negative...my third grade grammar teacher is rolling over in her grave). I
was just thinking that if one already owned a Class D amp, let's say, it
would be nice to have the option of purchasing JUST the subwoofer system
(and obviously Alpine would configure it in a way that there was just one
set of speaker inputs; I doubt Alpine would design it so the customer had to
wire all six of the subs together himself).

But I do agree that by integrating the whole package, you simplify things
for the customer (a direction Alpine seems to be moving with ALL it's
product lines, like doing away with Bass Engine Plus and Pro on it's HU,
perhaps because they thought it was too confusing for consumers). And, as
you pointed out, there is less risk of damage to the speakers by a user
connecting the amp incorrectly or overpowering the subs.

I'll take a look again at the amp they are using for the unit. Your
observations on the design sound interesting.

Nick

"John" wrote in message
...

Mosfet, good discussion on the new product. With the part of your text
below that I quoted though, I disagree. I think Alpine is smart, that
is why they designed it with an amplifier. That way, if it is properly
designed, they should not have to deal with as many warranty issues
like blown speakers, not to mention they can charge more for the
product. That is the same reason why their head units need costly
accessories for things like ipod control, satellite radio, usb, and
even a simple accessory input rather than having them simply out of the
box ready and integrated. Also, most people, off the top of their head,
have no clue as to how to wire 7 speakers together into a proper mono
load.

The part I find the most interesting is the amp actually. Take a look
at the actual design of it. It resembles a home audio plate amp more
than any common automotive audio amplifier. Another thing that this amp
offers, and that a number of their older other amp models offered, is
speaker line level input and outputs in addition to RCA. Very helpful
for the person who wants to add bass without spending more money and
going through more work than other alternatives require.

I agree. If Alpine were smart, they would design one
WITHOUT the built in
amp.

MOSFET


--
John

[smoove]

First off the PL-7 has only 6 cones. There are 2 drivers one being on each
end. With that you are not wiring 6 or 7 subs you are only wiring 2.
Also Mosfet said he wanted to buy a new amp. Everyone I have ever known to
buy MTX amps has had bad luck. And when it comes to Alpine amps for subs I
have never really been impressed. I think a Fosgate or JL amp is a much
better Sub amp

"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
I see your point and do agree with what you said. Perhaps I should have
clarified and said that Alpine should have offered a non-amplified version
as well. I didn't mean that the integrated amp was a bad idea (oops,
double
negative...my third grade grammar teacher is rolling over in her grave).
I
was just thinking that if one already owned a Class D amp, let's say, it
would be nice to have the option of purchasing JUST the subwoofer system
(and obviously Alpine would configure it in a way that there was just one
set of speaker inputs; I doubt Alpine would design it so the customer had
to
wire all six of the subs together himself).

But I do agree that by integrating the whole package, you simplify things
for the customer (a direction Alpine seems to be moving with ALL it's
product lines, like doing away with Bass Engine Plus and Pro on it's HU,
perhaps because they thought it was too confusing for consumers). And, as
you pointed out, there is less risk of damage to the speakers by a user
connecting the amp incorrectly or overpowering the subs.

I'll take a look again at the amp they are using for the unit. Your
observations on the design sound interesting.

Nick

"John" wrote in message
...

Mosfet, good discussion on the new product. With the part of your text
below that I quoted though, I disagree. I think Alpine is smart, that
is why they designed it with an amplifier. That way, if it is properly
designed, they should not have to deal with as many warranty issues
like blown speakers, not to mention they can charge more for the
product. That is the same reason why their head units need costly
accessories for things like ipod control, satellite radio, usb, and
even a simple accessory input rather than having them simply out of the
box ready and integrated. Also, most people, off the top of their head,
have no clue as to how to wire 7 speakers together into a proper mono
load.

The part I find the most interesting is the amp actually. Take a look
at the actual design of it. It resembles a home audio plate amp more
than any common automotive audio amplifier. Another thing that this amp
offers, and that a number of their older other amp models offered, is
speaker line level input and outputs in addition to RCA. Very helpful
for the person who wants to add bass without spending more money and
going through more work than other alternatives require.

I agree. If Alpine were smart, they would design one
WITHOUT the built in
amp.

MOSFET


--
John

[D.Kreft]

On Jan 16, 4:02 pm, "MOSFET" wrote:

http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/prod...hp?model=PLV-7

I'm not so sure this is such a "new" concept. I can't really tell by
looking at just one oblique view of the cabinet, but I strongly suspect
that this is nothing more than an isobarically-loaded bandpass
enclosure on some really bad steroids. If it's what I think it is, it's
a *lot* like a ridiculous cabinet by Blues called a "trisobaric",
which, if memory serves, had two 8" subs playing into the back of a 10"
sub which was exposed to the listening environment (totally retarded).
Granted, this beast that Alpine has come up with is an "ultra-reflex"
(whatever *that* means) bandpass design, but it still smells
suspicously similar--a bunch of subwoofers stacked-up on top of one
another and sold for a fortune. I'd be interested to know how this
thing stacks up against a system of equivalent cost with a more
conventional alignment.

The more craziness you try to pull off, the more you wind up
sacrificing in some other area--it's a fundamental tenet of
engineering. I used to be really enamored by single-reflex bandpass
enclosures--I was amazed at how much sound a small subwoofer could be
made to produce, and how clean it sounded. But after having built
and/or installed many such enclosures in my own and customers'
vehicles, I grew to greatly dislike their relatively sloppy group delay
characteristics and the overall sound of them (a bit too "sterile" or
lifeless...you've gotta have some really "ballsy" midbass drivers to
make up for what the bandpass design filters off naturally).

So basically, I think this is just a gimmicky box wrapped around some
conventional drivers and will prove to be a very short-lived product.

Just my $0.02.

-dan

[MOSFET]

So basically, I think this is just a gimmicky box wrapped around some
conventional drivers and will prove to be a very short-lived product.

Just my $0.02.


Well, Dan, if history is any guide to the future, you are most likely
correct: it will prove to be short lived.

We have all seen a million gimmicks in sub design (my PG Cyclone example
being one) over the years, yet they almost always tend to be short lived (I
suppose an exception to that rule would be Kicker's square subs). I thought
that (a square cone) would be yet another flash-in-the-pan gimmick but it
seems THAT PARTICULAR concept is here to stay (at least for now).

Yet most radical departures from the conventional speaker design do seem to
ultimately fail. Like you, I fear this will also be the case for the PLV-7.

Nick

[MOSFET]

.. I'd be interested to know how this
thing stacks up against a system of equivalent cost with a more
conventional alignment.

One more thing....

You wondered how it would stack up against a more conventional alignment.
CA&E reported that the PLV-7 creates about the same output as two 12" subs
driven by a 500 watt amp.

So if you look at the cost of buying two good quality 12" subs, the
enclosure, and then a high-efficiency 500 watt amp, the PLV-7 starts looking
like a better deal.

Also, keep in mind, this is SPECIFICALLY designed for the user who wants big
bass, but does not want to sacrifice their trunk or rear-cargo space. I
certainly know there are consumers out there who would happily pay a bit of
a premium to achieve this goal IF, and this is an important IF, the PLV-7
really delivers what it promises (I have never heard one).


Nick

[D.Kreft]

On Jan 18, 12:56 pm, "MOSFET" wrote:

You wondered how it would stack up against a more conventional alignment.
CA&E reported that the PLV-7 creates about the same output as two 12" subs
driven by a 500 watt amp.

Two 12" subs in what kind of enclosure, though? That's the key. This
PLV is a bandpass enclosure, so unless they're comparing it to
something with a similar alignment (e.g. a single-reflex bandpass with
comparable drivers), then the comparison doesn't mean too much. They're
going to have a hard time getting around the basic laws of physics. :-)

-dan

[MOSFET]

Two 12" subs in what kind of enclosure, though? That's the key.


Good point. They don't specify. I know it hit an SPL of 134.4 dB in an
Acura MDX (I guess this is an SUV). But your right, saying that it hits as
hard as two 12" without specifying what type of enclosure those 12"'s are in
is only giving us half the picture.

Nick

[D.Kreft]

On Jan 18, 1:42 pm, "MOSFET" wrote:

Acura MDX (I guess this is an SUV). But your right, saying that it hits as
hard as two 12" without specifying what type of enclosure those 12"'s are in
is only giving us half the picture.

A closely related question would be "What does a pair of 12's sound
like, anyway?" I mean, considering that:

* two 12" subs from different manufacturers will sound different;
* two 12"s from the same mfg. (e.g. 12W1 vs. 12W7) will sound
different; and
* two 12"s of the same make and model, but in different alignments
will sound different

Then how does anyone say "this sounds like a pair of __________" with
any credibility? It's all too hand-wavy for me.

It's funny, though, because I used to use this same approach on my
customers who were afflicted with the same desire to try to compare sub
systems like this. I'd get guys in the shop all the time saying about
how they wanted a pair of 15's (with no room to put them), telling me
that "you can't gets no bass from small woofers." So, I'd sit them in
my car and let them listen and then make 'em guess what I had in the

"A pair of 15's with 500W on 'em!"
"Four 12's with 400W!"

When in actuality, it was a pair of 10's in a single-reflex bandpass
driven with half of a PPI 50x4 (200W for the subs). I'd then show the
slack-jawed customer how much his idea of what I had costs compared to
what I actually had--blew their minds. :-)

-dan

[Tony F]

Good lord people. It's only $700 for the box AND amp. I'm really surprised
everyone's nick-picking it to death and no one's even heard it yet. Geesh.

Tony

[MOSFET]

"Tony F" wrote in message
...
Good lord people. It's only $700 for the box AND amp. I'm really
surprised
everyone's nick-picking it to death and no one's even heard it yet.


Well Tony I suppose, for my part, it breaks up the
how-do-I-connect-my-iPod-to-my-stereo monotony.

Nick

[D.Kreft]

On Jan 18, 4:06 pm, "Tony F" wrote:

Good lord people. It's only $700 for the box AND amp. I'm really surprised
everyone's nick-picking it to death and no one's even heard it yet. Geesh.

Well, gee, Tony...it wouldn't be any fun talking about it if we all
thought it was a great idea, now would it?

The car audio industry (like many others) is and always has been full
of gimmickry...whether it's flat cones made out of honeycomb material,
square subwoofers, neon inside of enclosures, bizarre subwoofer
enclosures, amplifiers with screaming faces molded into their
heatsinks--the list goes on. Everyone is trying to get the consumer's
attention with something new and snazzy. Some of it is the result of
legitimate engineering and R&D, but not all.

The sad part about it, though, is that in the past 10 years or so,
there's been a noticeable shift from trying to wow consumers with a
stellar-quality product to trying to wow them with bells, whistles,
flashing lights and....well, the just-plain-bizarre. Not all
manufacturers have gone this route--there are a small number of
manufacturers that are truly on the cutting edge of technology and want
to wow you with what you hear and just by what you can see--but a
surprising number of them seem to have purchased a one-way ticket on
the Marketing Express.

You're right...I've never heard the PLV, and in all likelihood I won't.
Time will tell whether this is good engineering or a gimmick, but until
we find out for certain, my bet is that it's an attempt to boost sales
and make the company look like it's doing something new and special
(which apparently has worked, based upon MOSFET's original post :-).

Your mileage, of course, may vary, but I will not deny you the right to
argue your point.

-dan

[Tony F]

"Well Tony I suppose, for my part, it breaks up the
how-do-I-connect-my-iPod-to-my-stereo monotony."

Fair enough, Nick.

But how do I connect my iPhone to my stereo?

Tony

[Tony F]

Dan,

You're of course, absolutely right.

Tony