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#1
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Questions about recording an acoustic Jazz Trio
Hi to all here,
I'm only a musician and not a sound engineer (if I was I would'nt ask all these basic questions), but I'm quite interested by recording. To help a friend of mine (she's a singer) who needs a demo CD, I'll to try record her Trio (Female voice + Double bass + Upright piano) in a room which is not fantastic but not awful. It's a rehearsal room in a music's school, not too dead, not too reflective, aproximately 16 feets X 30 feets, ceiling 10 feets. Their music is made of sung Jazz standards.The singer has a deep and loud voice.They will play together in the same room, no headphones except perhaps for the singer. I'll be in a little room close of them. Here is all what I'm able to use for this session: 1X DAW VS 2400CD Roland , 1X Peamp DBX 386, 2X AKG C414 B-ULS, 2X Studio Projects C1, 2X Sennheiser MD441, 1X Sennheiser MD421, 1X EV RE20 1X AKG 535EB Of course, I don't want to use all of these microphones. My choice would have been : 2X C1 on the piano, 1X C414 for the voice, 1X RE20 + 1X C414 for the double bass (is it really interesting to use them both, or will I have too much phase problems ?). What would be your mic's choice and mic's placement ? Should I "strip" the upright piano ? Would XY be a right choice for it ? For which mic(s) the preamp could be really useful ? The voice ? Thanks for your answers. Regards, Laurent. |
#2
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:38:17 +0200, lm wrote:
Hi to all here, I'm only a musician and not a sound engineer (if I was I would'nt ask all these basic questions), but I'm quite interested by recording. To help a friend of mine (she's a singer) who needs a demo CD, I'll to try record her Trio (Female voice + Double bass + Upright piano) in a room which is not fantastic but not awful. It's a rehearsal room in a music's school, not too dead, not too reflective, aproximately 16 feets X 30 feets, ceiling 10 feets. That's an AWFUL lot of complication for a jazz trio. How do they sound just playing in the room together? I suggest you start with a stereo pair of small condensors, plus a vocal mic. Start simple, then decide, "Hey, it might be worth my while to add a bass track" or something. Move the group around the room to see where the "sweet spot" is. Stick to basics and you'll stand a better chance of success. |
#3
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"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles a écrit dans le message de news:2OGYc.10723$Tq.6717@trndny02... Thanks for your answer That's an AWFUL lot of complication for a jazz trio. Sorry, I have often a too much complicated mind and my unknowledge of recording does the rest. How do they sound just playing in the room together? I feel like they sound good. But in this room, when several people are playing together the sound is not very accurate, that's why I thought about close miking. I suggest you start with a stereo pair of small condensors, plus a vocal mic. Unfortunately, I have no small condensers mics at this time. And as I'm doing the recording for free, no money to rent anyone. I ordered a pair of Schoeps CMC6 /MK4 a few days ago, but they will come too late for this session. Start simple, then decide, "Hey, it might be worth my while to add a bass track" or something. Following this way with the only mics I have, what would be your mic's choice ? Move the group around the room to see where the "sweet spot" is. Stick to basics and you'll stand a better chance of success. OK Thanks again for your answer. Laurent. |
#4
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:09:29 +0200, lm
wrote: How do they sound just playing in the room together? I feel like they sound good. But in this room, when several people are playing together the sound is not very accurate, that's why I thought about close miking. The best way to get a good sound on tape (or HD) is to start with a good sound. Yes, I know that's a cliche, but it's also true. Experiment with mic placement until you get the best blend. I suggest you start with a stereo pair of small condensors, plus a vocal mic. Unfortunately, I have no small condensers mics at this time. And as I'm doing the recording for free, no money to rent anyone. I ordered a pair of Schoeps CMC6 /MK4 a few days ago, but they will come too late for this session. If you have a pair that match well, use that. Otherwise, just record the band mono. It's good enough for what you're doing. Following this way with the only mics I have, what would be your mic's choice ? |
#5
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Laurent wrote
I'm only a musician and not a sound engineer (if I was I would'nt ask all these basic questions), but I'm quite interested by recording. To help a friend of mine (she's a singer) who needs a demo CD, I'll to try record her Trio (Female voice + Double bass + Upright piano) in a room which is not fantastic but not awful. It's a rehearsal room in a music's school, not too dead, not too reflective, aproximately 16 feets X 30 feets, ceiling 10 feets. Their music is made of sung Jazz standards.The singer has a deep and loud voice.They will play together in the same room, no headphones except perhaps for the singer. I'll be in a little room close of them. Here is all what I'm able to use for this session: 1X DAW VS 2400CD Roland , 1X Peamp DBX 386, 2X AKG C414 B-ULS, 2X Studio Projects C1, 2X Sennheiser MD441, 1X Sennheiser MD421, 1X EV RE20 1X AKG 535EB Of course, I don't want to use all of these microphones. My choice would have been : 2X C1 on the piano, 1X C414 for the voice, 1X RE20 + 1X C414 for the double bass (is it really interesting to use them both, or will I have too much phase problems ?). What would be your mic's choice and mic's placement ? Should I "strip" the upright piano ? Would XY be a right choice for it ? For which mic(s) the preamp could be really useful ? The voice ? You have been given some good advice here to work with but, I'm afraid that there's a bit more to the "Art" of recording than meets the eye. I would ask the group, "Do you really want a good professional recording, or do you want to take a chance on sending your Demo out with poor sound quality?" There are lots of up and coming studios out there that will sell time dirt cheap. These studios may not have super high dollar, high end gear but the engineers there know how to use there gear and how to get the best sound from the rooms they have. Before you chose a studio ask for some recordings they have done that are the same type of music that your playing and check it on different systems, your computer, your car, your home stereo, even your TV's 3" speakers (if you can). |
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#7
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"Raymond" a écrit dans le message de ... You have been given some good advice here to work with but, I'm afraid that there's a bit more to the "Art" of recording than meets the eye. I would ask the group, "Do you really want a good professional recording, or do you want to take a chance on sending your Demo out with poor sound quality?" There are lots of up and coming studios out there that will sell time dirt cheap. These studios may not have super high dollar, high end gear but the engineers there know how to use there gear and how to get the best sound from the rooms they have. Before you chose a studio ask for some recordings they have done that are the same type of music that your playing and check it on different systems, your computer, your car, your home stereo, even your TV's 3" speakers (if you can). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Raymond, I understand your answer as: You're a musician, stay at your place, don't try to do the engineer and let pay your friend the right price for the job. OK. After 28 years as a musician, I can only agree with you : a good engineer, even without high end gear, would be the best way. But here in Toulouse (South West of France), among a lot of studios in the near, I only know 2 or 3 real good sound engineers who work in "out of prices" places. I can often hear bad results coming from studios of pretended audio professionals in the near. So, since 2 years I try to learn recording: composing, playing and recording chidren's musics for CD ROM, doing my own bands demo (one of those became commercial CD). You certainly would judge them severely with a ton of newbie errors, but I feel them often (fotunately some other people too...) more "musical" and more realistic than some commercial prods. The last demo I recorded for a Jazz Trio (in my home-studio) sounded fine to their ears and allowed the band to find some gigs and a tour. I don't even try to compare my results with reel good sound engineer's results. I just feel my musician's ears are sometimes more opened than those of some engineers that we should have to pay a lot. But as I have not a great habit of live recording, I just wanted some advices to do better the job and to learn a little more. Thanks for your answer anyway. Laurent. |
#8
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"Mike Rivers" a écrit dans le message de news:znr1093877284k@trad... Since you don't have a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics, I'd go for the C414s in an X-Y configuration. Place them so that you get a good balance between the singer and the piano, then move the bass player so he fits in right. Set the level so the loudest she can sing when doing a check peaks around -6 dB on the Roland's meters, and just let it roll. Do a couple or three takes of each song and edit the best parts together if there isn't a perfect take. ---------------------------------------------------------- Thank you Mike, for these accurate and helpful infos. Laurent. |
#9
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Laurent wrote
I understand your answer as: You're a musician, stay at your place, don't try to do the engineer and let pay your friend the right price for the job. OK. After 28 years as a musician, I can only agree with you : a good engineer, even without high end gear, would be the best way. OK, then you do understand that there is a best and a not so best way to do anything. But here in Toulouse (South West of France), among a lot of studios in the near, I only know 2 or 3 real good sound engineers who work in "out of prices" places. I can often hear bad results coming from studios of pretended audio professionals in the near. OK, then you keep looking, that's why you ask for demo's of what they have done (relating to your music). Ask yourself, is there only these people doing this? If you've checked out all that there is, then that's all there is so you still find out if that's what the group want's. If they say yes we only want something to that sounds acceptable that's all that we want. In that case just throw up a pair of low cost SDC and track to whatever you have and do what you can (but don't try and over do things!). Get the group sounding good in the one spot of the room that sound best and put the mic's there. So, since 2 years I try to learn recording: composing, playing and recording chidren's musics for CD ROM, doing my own bands demo (one of those became commercial CD). You certainly would judge them severely with a ton of newbie errors, but I feel them often (fotunately some other people too...) more "musical" and more realistic than some commercial prods. OK, sounds like you've been doing your homework, putting it to some practical use but you've been doing all that at the same time. I started out as a musician (in the late 70's) played in several types of bands, I did the sound for our live gig's from the drum kit. Never got any help from the rest of the group (unless I begged them) but I went on learning all I could. After about 5-10 years of that, I started writing songs and recording on an old (at that time new) Fostex 4-track recorder, the next 10 years I stayed in the part time bands and literally flatted the heads on that 4-track machine. I can't even begin to count the hours I put on that machine, by the time I got rid of it, tracks 1 and 4 no longer printed with quality. The last demo I recorded for a Jazz Trio (in my home-studio) sounded fine to their ears and allowed the band to find some gigs and a tour. I've done some recording's for some people I know that I knew needed more care and work but they just said..."WOW! That was the best sound I've ever heard! I don't even try to compare my results with reel good sound engineer's results. I just feel my musician's ears are sometimes more opened than those of some engineers that we should have to pay a lot. But as I have not a great habit of live recording, I just wanted some advices to do better the job and to learn a little more. Thanks for your answer anyway. You do have an honest tone, but you can do with some more research and experience. But don't take my word's as criticism just keep punching and you may just show all those Toulouseains that you've been learning while they have been losing. |
#10
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-----
Raymond, I understand your answer as: You're a musician, stay at your place, don't try to do the engineer and let pay your friend the right price for the job. OK. After 28 years as a musician, I can only agree with you : a good engineer, even without high end gear, would be the best way. But here in Toulouse (South West of France), among a lot of studios in the near, I only know 2 or 3 real good sound engineers who work in "out of prices" places. Hi Laurent. I answer you in english because... but I live in Toulouse. I record mostly classical concerts and sometimes jazz-bands with a pair of good small capsules mics. If I can help you ... I am not a professional and I record for nearly nothing. A bientôt peut-être Jean-Marie |
#11
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"Raymond" wrote: I've done some recording's for some people I know that I knew needed more care and work but they just said..."WOW! That was the best sound I've ever heard! The sound I made was certainly not the best they could have, but the the best I could do for sounding the more close to their sound. But I agree with you. You do have an honest tone, but you can do with some more research and experience. But don't take my word's as criticism just keep punching and you may just show all those Toulouseains that you've been learning while they have been losing. Each comment is good to take and yours are interesting, I don't feel them only negatives. I don't want to show anything to anyone, nore in Toulouse neither anywhere. I'd just like to learn gradually to record acoustic instruments with the more respectful sound. So, each trial is a good exercice for me. And if the band does'nt expect to have that "great reel pro sound" (which is the case), it might be good for them to have a free demo and for me to learn a little more about mics, their placement, room's sound behaviour, etc. It's like a service's exchange.I don't take the place of any pro studio in this case, the singer is really in money troubles (so she can't spend even a $300 for an afternoon in studio) and needs to send quickly some demos to get job. I don't want to become a sound engineer, I know it's a reel job which must be longly learned. But I think any musician should learn more and more about sound, which is his raw material. Thanks for your interesting comments. Laurent. |
#12
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"Jean Marie MATHIEU" a écrit dans le message de om... ----- Hi Laurent. I answer you in english because... but I live in Toulouse. I record mostly classical concerts and sometimes jazz-bands with a pair of good small capsules mics. If I can help you ... I am not a professional and I record for nearly nothing. A bientôt peut-être Jean-Marie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Jean-Marie, Happy to meet a Toulousain here. For this session, it will be a little short, because we record tomorrow. But it's a good purpose, thanks, I'll keep in mind. Which Jazz bands did you record in Toulouse ? Which kind of mics do you use ? Schoeps ? My name is Laurent MARC, I play vibraphone. Perhaps we already met ourselves in Toulouse ? A bientôt, ici ou peut-ëtre à Toulouse... Cordialement, Laurent. |
#13
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I would ask the group, "Do you really want a good professional recording, or
do you want to take a chance on sending your Demo out with poor sound quality?" There are lots of up and coming studios out there that will sell time dirt cheap. These studios may not have super high dollar, high end gear but the engineers there know how to use there gear and how to get the best sound from the rooms they have. I agree, I have done a bunch of quick Jazz recordings in the last few months and the familiarity of being in the same room with the same monitor setup..familiar mics and pres..etc..make it easy for me to get in the ballpark very quickly. Did a session lst month.a soundtrack for a ballroom dance theatrical production package..18 songs in 4 hours and everything was usuable and the people in charge were very happy. If I had to wonder how everything would sound we wouldn't have finished anything that day. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#14
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lm wrote:
I'm only a musician and not a sound engineer (if I was I would'nt ask all these basic questions), but I'm quite interested by recording. To help a friend of mine (she's a singer) who needs a demo CD, I'll to try record her Trio (Female voice + Double bass + Upright piano) in a room which is not fantastic but not awful. It's a rehearsal room in a music's school, not too dead, not too reflective, aproximately 16 feets X 30 feets, ceiling 10 feets. Appears usable. Their music is made of sung Jazz standards.The singer has a deep and loud voice. RE20, 40 centimeters away, no closer than 20 centimeters, lower or higher than the mouth - try throat high aimed at mouth and forehead high aimed at mouth, the latter is what I expect from hearsay to be best. They will play together in the same room, no headphones except perhaps for the singer. Why does the singer need headphones? I'll be in a little room close of them. Here is all what I'm able to use for this session: 1X DAW VS 2400CD Roland , 1X Peamp DBX 386, 2X AKG C414 B-ULS, 2X Studio Projects C1, 2X Sennheiser MD441, 441's or 414's on piano, not closemike style, stereo pair. 1X Sennheiser MD421, On bass, 535 may also be usable, C1 if not used for ambience, but I honestly believe that the 421 is the first choice to try if in good shape. 1X EV RE20 1X AKG 535EB Of course, I don't want to use all of these microphones. My choice would have been : 2X C1 on the piano, 1X C414 for the voice, No, the C1's or the 414's go on ambience duty as a stereo pair. 1X RE20 + 1X C414 for the double bass (is it really interesting to use them both, or will I have too much phase problems ?). What would be your mic's choice and mic's placement ? Should I "strip" the upright piano? Depends. Would XY be a right choice for it ? Yes, open lid and from above. For which mic(s) the preamp could be really useful ? The voice ? All mics require mic pre's, what you call a DAW appears to be a harddisk recorder and it appears that it has internal mic pres. It may well be better to have identical mic pres on all channels than to have one channel "extra shiny", it is an ensemble. Youi will be the first to know what works best after trying it. Thanks for your answers. Please understand that the above is sketchy. Laurent. Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#15
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Thank you, Peter, for all these informations.
Regards, Laurent. Oh, the singer needs headphone in order to hear herself enough because the piano is very loud in this room. |
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