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#1
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
Hey Guys!!! How's it hanging? Now I know an awful lot about car audio and
the nature of voltage, amperage, watts, ect. But I don't know much about the complexity of a car's electrical system and that is EXACTLY the problem I'm having. The car is a 1989 Mazda MX-6, it's my wife's car, and we recently had some problems with it stalling, missing, and even dying sometimes. So after doing all the things I know how to do (changing air filter, fuel filter, plugs, wires, and several other things) I took it to a "shade tree" mechanic who lives very close to us. I should say now that she had a simple system in her car that consited of only a Pioneer HU and some after market BA speakers (she listens to talk radio so there was really no point in building her a big system, even though I have a spare amp and sub just sitting around, I had to twist her arm just to put in the Pioneer and Boston speaks), that system worked fine up until we took it to this mechanic. When we got the car back, we found he had needed to replace the distributor, cap, rotor, and coil. The car ran fine once again however the weird thing is that the Pioneer deck no longer came on. So I took the dash apart and started checking things with my multimeter (oh, I should say that the VERY FIRST thing I did was check all the fuses which were fine). The B+ voltage was fine, as was the ground. But the red ignition wire was reading .64 volts when the car was on OR OFF. So I said to myself, fine, I'll find another 12 volt source that turns off when the key is turned off. I checked the ciggarette lighter wire and every other wire I could find. No dice. Although the yellow B+ wire seems to be fine, the ignition wire (or any other wire that should produce 12 volts when the key is turned) is only producing .64 volts whether the key is turned or not. Help!!!! I've never come accross this type of problem before. Obviously it has something to do with the car's ignition system (I think) but I have no idea where to look for the fault. Like I said, the car runs great. Also, again the radio had worked fine in the past using the red ignition wire as my "turn-on" wire. Now only the yellow B+ wire is the only wire I can find in that cavity that produces 12 volts, and of course it produces those 12 volts whether the key is turned on or not. I really need some help here. Maybe even a work around as the car appears to run just fine yet something is clearly wrong but does not seem to be effecting the performance of the car. Thank you in advance, MOSFET |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
Yikes...
I can't offer too much in the way of advice here. I know you said you checked the fuses, but if you only checked the fuses you thought to be relevant to the stereo, I would suggest checking ALL of them (especially the ones in the engine bay). I would suspect (as you do) a larger issue. Beyond that, I can only offer workarounds. For example, installing a toggle switch in a discreet location (like a 2nd "on/off" switch) for the head unit, and basically running it off of the same constant power wire that the deck is already using. Hopefully someone has some better answers for you, but if not, I live in your neck of the woods and I'd be happy to install such a switch for you! ~Mister.Lull On Mar 12, 7:29*pm, "MOSFET" wrote: Hey Guys!!! *How's it hanging? *Now I know an awful lot about car audio and the nature of voltage, amperage, watts, ect. But I don't know much about the complexity of a car's electrical system and that is EXACTLY the problem I'm having. The car is a 1989 Mazda MX-6, it's my wife's car, and we recently had some problems with it stalling, missing, and even dying sometimes. *So after doing all the things I know how to do (changing air filter, fuel filter, plugs, wires, and several other things) I took it to a "shade tree" mechanic who lives very close to us. *I should say now that she had a simple system in her car that consited of only a Pioneer HU and some after market BA speakers (she listens to talk radio so there was really no point in building her a big system, even though I have a spare amp and sub just sitting around, I had to twist her arm just to put in the Pioneer and Boston speaks), that system worked fine up until we took it to this mechanic. When we got the car back, we found he had needed to replace the distributor, cap, rotor, and coil. *The car ran fine once again however the weird thing is that the Pioneer deck no longer came on. *So I took the dash apart and started checking things with my multimeter (oh, I should say that the VERY FIRST thing I did was check all the fuses which were fine). *The B+ voltage was fine, as was the ground. *But the red ignition wire was reading .64 volts when the car was on OR OFF. *So I said to myself, fine, I'll find another 12 volt source that turns off when the key is turned off. *I checked the ciggarette lighter wire and every other wire I could find. No dice. *Although the yellow B+ wire seems to be fine, the ignition wire (or any other wire that should produce 12 volts when the key is turned) is only producing .64 volts whether the key is turned or not. Help!!!! *I've never come accross this type of problem before. *Obviously it has something to do with the car's ignition system (I think) but I have no idea where to look for the fault. *Like I said, the car runs great. *Also, again the radio had worked fine in the past using the red ignition wire as my "turn-on" wire. *Now only the yellow B+ wire is the only wire I can find in that cavity that produces 12 volts, and of course it produces those 12 volts whether the key is turned on or not. I really need some help here. *Maybe even a work around as the car appears to run just fine yet something is clearly wrong but does not seem to be effecting the performance of the car. Thank you in advance, MOSFET |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
Beyond that, I can only offer workarounds. For example, installing a toggle switch in a discreet location (like a 2nd "on/off" switch) for the head unit, and basically running it off of the same constant power wire that the deck is already using. Thanks Lull, in fact that is EXACTLY what I am doing for now. I cut the red ignition wire, twisted the yellow B+ and deck's ignition wire together and so the radio works fine, you just have to remember to turn it on and most importantly, OFF again when you are done. Like I said, I cut the red ignition wire (and crimped the ends) so no current can flow back from the B+ into the ignition system. But as you apptly put it, I have a larger issue I need to resolve as most of my dash lights currently don't work (and they did before), cigarrette lighter does not get any power, ect. I know all these problems are related in some way. I did check ALL the fuses in the fuse box in the cabin. Are you saying (and please excuse my ignorance, I really don't know much about car electronics) that there is another bank of fuses under the hood? If so, one of those could be blown and be the source of my power problems. It's strange. You would think that if the ignition wire was sitting at only ..64 volts there might be engine problems still, but there is not. It runs great. This one really has me baffled. Again, thanks for the reply, Lull. Talk to you later... Nick |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
Nick, exactly how did you check your fuses?
did you just LOOK at them, or did you use an ohm meter ? I had an experience in another group when a user could not get his head unit to come on, no matter what. He had checked and double checked all fuses, and found nothing wrong. I suggested that he remove the relevant fuse and actually put an ohm meter to it. Sure enough, it was bad, although he swore it looked perfect. They can burn out right close to the base, where you can't see the defect. In addition to fuses, have you looked for and checked all circuit breakers ? I do agree that your symptoms are rather weird, but just thought I would go back to one of the basics.... good luck , and keep up posted !! James |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
James,
Please tell me how two set my multimeter (it's a pretty expensive type) to check the ohms of my fuses? I think you may be on to something as I've checked everything else. Do I set the multimeter to a certain ohm value (it has 200 ohms - 2000k and three values in the middle, 200k, 20k, 2000 and then 200). Which setting should I use? And then do I simply touch the two probes on each blade? What value SHOULD I see? I'm sorry but I have never checked ohm values before except when I'm not sure about a speakers ohm value, and yes, I know that is not an accurate way to judge the ohm value of a speaker as the value flucuates with frequencies, but it does give you a ballpark. Any assistance in this area would be appreciated. I know ohms measure electrical resistance butI do not know the correct procedure for checking fuses. Thank you in advance, Nick "James" no wrote in message .. . Nick, exactly how did you check your fuses? did you just LOOK at them, or did you use an ohm meter ? I had an experience in another group when a user could not get his head unit to come on, no matter what. He had checked and double checked all fuses, and found nothing wrong. I suggested that he remove the relevant fuse and actually put an ohm meter to it. Sure enough, it was bad, although he swore it looked perfect. They can burn out right close to the base, where you can't see the defect. In addition to fuses, have you looked for and checked all circuit breakers ? I do agree that your symptoms are rather weird, but just thought I would go back to one of the basics.... good luck , and keep up posted !! James |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
I would set it to 200 ohms, and then hold the two leads together, and adjust
the meter needle (zero adjustment) so that the meter reads full value, or full continuity. Whcn checking the fuse, you are not looking for a specific ohm value. You are just looking for circuit continuity. So, you adjust your meter first, by holding the two leads together, and adjusting your meter, and then do the same with the two blades of the fuse, and if the fuse is good, you should get full continuity. Either you do or you don't, and that will tell you if the fuse is bad (open) or good (full continuity). Stated differently, a bad fuse will show no reading (open), and a good fuse will show continuity (full meter reading). James |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Answered my own question.....
I just now got my multimeter out and set it to 200 ohms. When the probes
are not touching I get no reading at all. When the probes touch each other OR touch each blade of a blade fuse I get a .5 ohm reading. I just now went out to my car and tested every fuse, they all seemed fine as I got the .5 ohm reading. So it does not appear that I have a bad fuse as now I have electricaly tested them as well as visually tested them. Man, this one really has me stumped. Again, the engine starts and runs perfectly. Yet obviously something is seriously wrong with my electrical system as about half of the dash lights do not work (fortunately all the intrument cluster lights do work). But the instrument cluster lights are about the only lights that DO work. The ciggarrette light does not work (nor do I get power to the cigarette lighter), the heater lights don't work and the shifting lights do not work. Yet all of these had worked before. Also, the battery and alternator appear to be fine as I just checked that. I was getting 14.4 from the battery. HELP!!! Nick |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Help, Electrical Problems.....
Funny, I wrote mine before I saw your post. Looks like we were on the same
page with this. Nick "James" no wrote in message ... I would set it to 200 ohms, and then hold the two leads together, and adjust the meter needle (zero adjustment) so that the meter reads full value, or full continuity. Whcn checking the fuse, you are not looking for a specific ohm value. You are just looking for circuit continuity. So, you adjust your meter first, by holding the two leads together, and adjusting your meter, and then do the same with the two blades of the fuse, and if the fuse is good, you should get full continuity. Either you do or you don't, and that will tell you if the fuse is bad (open) or good (full continuity). Stated differently, a bad fuse will show no reading (open), and a good fuse will show continuity (full meter reading). James |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Also.....
My check engine light winks at me now and then, but never stays on more than
5 seconds or so. The car had just been tuned up and as I said before, it runs perfectly (no missing, no loss of power, on stalling, no trouble starting, and it idles very, very smoothly for a four banger). I have to think that the check engine light MUST be related to this electrical/voltage problem somehow as every other mechanical system checks out fine. Part of my wants to take it to a reputable automotive repair service and have them diagnois the problem. But another part of me figures that as long as it is running well and I can do work-arounds to get the stereo working, why spend the money? Especially in light of the fact I have just paid this other mechanic $500 to replace the distributor, cap, rotor, coil and give it a full tune-up. The problem is, I discovered through working with him he is kind of a jerk and there is no sort of gaurentee. So if I take it back to him, it's not likely (in fact I'm sure it's not likely) that he will give me any kind of discount to help discover the problem with the ignition voltage. I think I will just keep trying different things and doing more research (I need to buy a Haines manual) and see if I can stumble onto the problem. I actually enjoy this kind of car-detective work. But after a two or three more weeks of this, if I have not found the problem I will take it into my old tried and trusted car-repair shop. You see, my BIG concern revolves around the fact that if this particular electrical system is not working correctly, might it effect others down the road? I don't want to have to find out the hard way. Again, IF ANYONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS, I AM ALL EARS AND WILL CERTAINLY TRY IT IF I CAN. Thanks, Nick |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Also.....
"MOSFET" wrote in message m... My check engine light winks at me now and then, but never stays on more than 5 seconds or so. The car had just been tuned up and as I said before, it runs perfectly (no missing, no loss of power, on stalling, no trouble starting, and it idles very, very smoothly for a four banger). I have to think that the check engine light MUST be related to this electrical/voltage problem somehow as every other mechanical system checks out fine. Part of my wants to take it to a reputable automotive repair service and have them diagnois the problem. But another part of me figures that as long as it is running well and I can do work-arounds to get the stereo working, why spend the money? Especially in light of the fact I have just paid this other mechanic $500 to replace the distributor, cap, rotor, coil and give it a full tune-up. The problem is, I discovered through working with him he is kind of a jerk and there is no sort of gaurentee. So if I take it back to him, it's not likely (in fact I'm sure it's not likely) that he will give me any kind of discount to help discover the problem with the ignition voltage. I think I will just keep trying different things and doing more research (I need to buy a Haines manual) and see if I can stumble onto the problem. I actually enjoy this kind of car-detective work. But after a two or three more weeks of this, if I have not found the problem I will take it into my old tried and trusted car-repair shop. You see, my BIG concern revolves around the fact that if this particular electrical system is not working correctly, might it effect others down the road? I don't want to have to find out the hard way. Again, IF ANYONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS, I AM ALL EARS AND WILL CERTAINLY TRY IT IF I CAN. Thanks, Nick I missed the first part of this, but have you checked all the grounds? A loose ground somewhere could have this sort of effect. mg |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Also.....
First, thank you for the advice MG, I truly always appreciate any help I can
get. Yes, a grounding problem has occured to me, but here's the thing: the yellow B+ wire is giving me 13 volts when I use the factory ground in the dash. Yet when I touch the red ignition wire to one of my multimeter probes and the black probe to that same factory ground I get .67 volts (when the car is running). See what I'm getting at? If the radio's factory ground is giving me 13 volts with the one B+ wire and then using the same ground, .67 with another positive wire, doesn't that mean the problem MUST be with the positive ignition wire? In other words, if I had a ground problem with the factory ground in the radio cavity, I would likely exhbit problems with any positive wire I tested. Now, are you talking about grounds under my hood? If so, I again took out my trusty multimeter, and touched one probe to the positve battery terminal with the other probe to the frame of the car and engine block. The voltage potentials were negligable (.02 volts). I also tried touching one end of the probe to the engine block and the other to the chassis, again I read a very negligable .02 volts as the difference in negative voltage potentials. Grounds are amost always the first place I look when I am having stereo problems so just applied that same knowledge to this issue. IN FACT, I had even expected that this might be the cause and so EVEN BEFORE I tested it I, quickly built (with spare wire I had) two 4 foot lengths of 4 guage cable to run from the neg. battery post to the car's chassis, and the other cable would likely run from the engine block to the car's chassis. I have done this little trick in the past with several cars and usually gain about .1-.3 volts at my amps when cranking them. Everyone always focuses on the positive side, but neglects the negative side, forgetting that voltage is NOT a measure of electrical flow (like watts), but a measure of voltage potential differnces and that you can increase voltage by, of course, raising the positive side, but also by lowering the negitive side. Anyway, long response to **** you probably already know. But again I don't think it's a ground issue as I am using the same ground for both the B+ (which gives me a nice happy 13 volts) and ignition wire. But I am no EE and if anything I have written is wrong, if there's something else I can try or might help this problem PLEASE, PLEASE let me know. For instance, how might I back-track the ignition wire to find the problem? IS this something I can do? If all fuses check out, based on everything I have written I could really use some ideas here. You said you didn't see my other messages, I'll copy them to this so you get a more accurate picture of what the car is doing. THANK YOU SO MUCH, Nick - see attached below Hey Guys!!! How's it hanging? Now I know an awful lot about car audio and the nature of voltage, amperage, watts, ect. But I don't know much about the complexity of a car's electrical system and that is EXACTLY the problem I'm having. The car is a 1989 Mazda MX-6, it's my wife's car, and we recently had some problems with it stalling, missing, and even dying sometimes. So after doing all the things I know how to do (changing air filter, fuel filter, plugs, wires, and several other things) I took it to a "shade tree" mechanic who lives very close to us. I should say now that she had a simple system in her car that consited of only a Pioneer HU and some after market BA speakers (she listens to talk radio so there was really no point in building her a big system, even though I have a spare amp and sub just sitting around, I had to twist her arm just to put in the Pioneer and Boston speaks), that system worked fine up until we took it to this mechanic. When we got the car back, we found he had needed to replace the distributor, cap, rotor, and coil. The car ran fine once again however the weird thing is that the Pioneer deck no longer came on. So I took the dash apart and started checking things with my multimeter (oh, I should say that the VERY FIRST thing I did was check all the fuses which were fine). The B+ voltage was fine, as was the ground. But the red ignition wire was reading .64 volts when the car was on OR OFF. So I said to myself, fine, I'll find another 12 volt source that turns off when the key is turned off. I checked the ciggarette lighter wire and every other wire I could find. No dice. Although the yellow B+ wire seems to be fine, the ignition wire (or any other wire that should produce 12 volts when the key is turned) is only producing .64 volts whether the key is turned or not. Help!!!! I've never come accross this type of problem before. Obviously it has something to do with the car's ignition system (I think) but I have no idea where to look for the fault. Like I said, the car runs great. Also, again the radio had worked fine in the past using the red ignition wire as my "turn-on" wire. Now only the yellow B+ wire is the only wire I can find in that cavity that produces 12 volts, and of course it produces those 12 volts whether the key is turned on or not. I really need some help here. Maybe even a work around as the car appears to run just fine yet something is clearly wrong but does not seem to be effecting the performance of the car. Thank you in advance, Beyond that, I can only offer workarounds. For example, installing a toggle switch in a discreet location (like a 2nd "on/off" switch) for the head unit, and basically running it off of the same constant power wire that the deck is already using. Thanks Lull, in fact that is EXACTLY what I am doing for now. I cut the red ignition wire, twisted the yellow B+ and deck's ignition wire together and so the radio works fine, you just have to remember to turn it on and most importantly, OFF again when you are done. Like I said, I cut the red ignition wire (and crimped the ends) so no current can flow back from the B+ into the ignition system. But as you apptly put it, I have a larger issue I need to resolve as most of my dash lights currently don't work (and they did before), cigarrette lighter does not get any power, ect. I know all these problems are related in some way. I did check ALL the fuses in the fuse box in the cabin. Are you saying (and please excuse my ignorance, I really don't know much about car electronics) that there is another bank of fuses under the hood? If so, one of those could be blown and be the source of my power problems. It's strange. You would think that if the ignition wire was sitting at only ..64 volts there might be engine problems still, but there is not. It runs great. This one really has me baffled. Again, thanks for the reply, Lull. Talk to you later... I just now got my multimeter out and set it to 200 ohms. When the probes are not touching I get no reading at all. When the probes touch each other OR touch each blade of a blade fuse I get a .5 ohm reading. I just now went out to my car and tested every fuse, they all seemed fine as I got the .5 ohm reading. So it does not appear that I have a bad fuse as now I have electricaly tested them as well as visually tested them. Man, this one really has me stumped. Again, the engine starts and runs perfectly. Yet obviously something is seriously wrong with my electrical system as about half of the dash lights do not work (fortunately all the intrument cluster lights do work). But the instrument cluster lights are about the only lights that DO work. The ciggarrette light does not work (nor do I get power to the cigarette lighter), the heater lights don't work and the shifting lights do not work. Yet all of these had worked before. Also, the battery and alternator appear to be fine as I just checked that. I was getting 14.4 from the battery. HELP!!! Nick "MG" wrote in message ... "MOSFET" wrote in message m... My check engine light winks at me now and then, but never stays on more than 5 seconds or so. The car had just been tuned up and as I said before, it runs perfectly (no missing, no loss of power, on stalling, no trouble starting, and it idles very, very smoothly for a four banger). I have to think that the check engine light MUST be related to this electrical/voltage problem somehow as every other mechanical system checks out fine. Part of my wants to take it to a reputable automotive repair service and have them diagnois the problem. But another part of me figures that as long as it is running well and I can do work-arounds to get the stereo working, why spend the money? Especially in light of the fact I have just paid this other mechanic $500 to replace the distributor, cap, rotor, coil and give it a full tune-up. The problem is, I discovered through working with him he is kind of a jerk and there is no sort of gaurentee. So if I take it back to him, it's not likely (in fact I'm sure it's not likely) that he will give me any kind of discount to help discover the problem with the ignition voltage. I think I will just keep trying different things and doing more research (I need to buy a Haines manual) and see if I can stumble onto the problem. I actually enjoy this kind of car-detective work. But after a two or three more weeks of this, if I have not found the problem I will take it into my old tried and trusted car-repair shop. You see, my BIG concern revolves around the fact that if this particular electrical system is not working correctly, might it effect others down the road? I don't want to have to find out the hard way. Again, IF ANYONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS, I AM ALL EARS AND WILL CERTAINLY TRY IT IF I CAN. Thanks, Nick I missed the first part of this, but have you checked all the grounds? A loose ground somewhere could have this sort of effect. mg |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Correction on last Email
I WROTE: "Now, are you talking about grounds under my hood? If so, I again took out my trusty multimeter, and touched one probe to the POSITIVE BATTERY terminal with the other probe to the frame of the car and engine block." It should read "one probe to the NEGATIVE battery terminal....." Nick |
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