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#1
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Is a Zapco AG650 worth the extra money over a JL Audio e6450
Hello,
I am overhauling my car audio system and I want to get a 6-channel to bi-amplify my front components (will be Illusion Audio mid-bass with tweeters yet to be determined). I had originally looked at the JL Audio e6450, which I can get locally for about 540 Canadian dollars. The shop also had a Zapco AG650 that had remained in inventory for a few years that they wanted to get rid of. Its also 6 channels, and I'm aware that it's a better quality amplifier than the JL, but I'm not sure if the difference will be audible. They were asking 770$CDN for the Zapco, saying that that was their cost for it. Do you think it's worth the extra 230$ for the Zapco, or would the JL be sufficient for use with those speakers? I might also try to get the rice of the Zapco down even more if I can but I'm not certain whether they'll budge or not. Thanks for your input to a newbit to this group. Luc Delorme a.k.a. RFMan |
#2
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I had originally looked at the JL Audio e6450, which I can get locally for
about 540 Canadian dollars. The shop also had a Zapco AG650 that had remained in inventory for a few years that they wanted to get rid of. Its also 6 channels, and I'm aware that it's a better quality amplifier than the JL, but I'm not sure if the difference will be audible. They were asking 770$CDN for the Zapco, saying that that was their cost for it. Who said it was a better quality amplifier? How is it better? |
#3
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On 2005-06-01 02:55:41 -0400, "MZ" said:
I had originally looked at the JL Audio e6450, which I can get locally for about 540 Canadian dollars. The shop also had a Zapco AG650 that had remained in inventory for a few years that they wanted to get rid of. Its also 6 channels, and I'm aware that it's a better quality amplifier than the JL, but I'm not sure if the difference will be audible. They were asking 770$CDN for the Zapco, saying that that was their cost for it. Who said it was a better quality amplifier? How is it better? Well, I have to admit that I have not heard the two amplifiers side-by-side. The fact that it can drive lower-impedance loads and has more bridging possibilities tells me there is more headroom in the output stages, but I con't really verify that. Also, I heard that their built-in crossovers are some of the best in the field. I am also going by the general concensus that I've seen in forums that place Zapco amplifiers above most any others. I did do a little more research after posting this, and there is a feature on the AG650 that I think I is worth the extra: the crossovers have a x10 feature, so I can use the to bi-amp the front components without even needing external crossovers. Just for that feature, I may get the Zapco, unless someone in this group can recommend some other 6-channel amplifier that has the x10 crossover feature. Luc |
#4
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Who said it was a better quality amplifier? How is it better?
Well, I have to admit that I have not heard the two amplifiers side-by-side. The fact that it can drive lower-impedance loads and has more bridging possibilities tells me there is more headroom in the output stages, but I con't really verify that. Headroom may not be the right term there. Headroom typically is a function of rail voltage, which is (kinda) independent of load impedance. I think you may be referring more to output impedance, but the ability to drive lower impedance loads doesn't necessarily imply lower output impedance. I think it just says how big the output transistors are. Unless your application calls for driving low impedance loads, I wouldn't let this factor in your judgment. Also, I heard that their built-in crossovers are some of the best in the field. Internal crossovers are a snap to build, and despite the claims of manufacturers like Audiocontrol, they're all the same - at least in terms of sound quality. They basically consist of some resistors, some cheap capacitors (even the expensive designs use cheap ones - I've experimented with various types without much of a difference), and a few $1.39 op amps (op amps are so advanced these days that the $1.39 are equivalent to the $8 ones for 100kHz designs; really, op amps are literally perfect circuits - at least that's what I keep trying to tell old fuddy duddies who insist on using transistors in every application). They're all even using the same Sallen-Key topology, not that it matters anyway - hey, fewer components...that's a good thing. I am also going by the general concensus that I've seen in forums that place Zapco amplifiers above most any others. Tough to associate one level of quality to an entire manufacturer when they're putting out different lines under the same name. There are, or at least were, some cheapo Zapco amps being sold by sounddomain and others not too long ago. Those ugly little white things. I bought one. I saw nothing that set it apart from any other amp I've owned. I think you have to avoid saying "so and so makes the best amplifiers", because just about everyone these days makes several different lines - some cost a fortune and are well built and have some sort of feature that makes them special - others are simply generic. I shouldn't say this is a new thing, because Sony and Kenwood have been doing it for years. Nowadays, when you look at Pioneer they're putting out the cheapest crap imaginable to some outlets, and then some very nice equipment elsewhere. For years, Autotek has had their Mean Machine line which is very good and then their el cheapo line which is generic. From what I hear, Lanzar is doing the same sort of thing. I did do a little more research after posting this, and there is a feature on the AG650 that I think I is worth the extra: the crossovers have a x10 feature, so I can use the to bi-amp the front components without even needing external crossovers. Just for that feature, I may get the Zapco, unless someone in this group can recommend some other 6-channel amplifier that has the x10 crossover feature. That'll probably be pretty useful, and may be justification enough for the added expense. I've been "tri-amping" for years, and for most of the time I've done it with a/d/s/ amps. They don't have a x10 feature, but their xovers go up to the kHz range and are HP/LP/BP selectable. The little knobs usually aren't accurate anyway, so I use my ear moreso than the numbers on the dial. I recently bought an Orion 4-channel that has pretty extensive crossovers too, and that thing's a beast and reasonably priced. I don't know if they make a 6 channel. There are of course external crossovers to buy, but I can understand trying to keep the number of components down - besides, some have been known to be prone to ground loops which is just an added hassle. |
#5
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MZ wrote: Who said it was a better quality amplifier? How is it better? Well, I have to admit that I have not heard the two amplifiers side-by-side. The fact that it can drive lower-impedance loads and has more bridging possibilities tells me there is more headroom in the output stages, but I con't really verify that. Headroom may not be the right term there. Headroom typically is a function of rail voltage, which is (kinda) independent of load impedance. I think you may be referring more to output impedance, but the ability to drive lower impedance loads doesn't necessarily imply lower output impedance. I think it just says how big the output transistors are. Unless your application calls for driving low impedance loads, I wouldn't let this factor in your judgment. Also, I heard that their built-in crossovers are some of the best in the field. Internal crossovers are a snap to build, and despite the claims of manufacturers like Audiocontrol, they're all the same - at least in terms of sound quality. They basically consist of some resistors, some cheap capacitors (even the expensive designs use cheap ones - I've experimented with various types without much of a difference), and a few $1.39 op amps (op amps are so advanced these days that the $1.39 are equivalent to the $8 ones for 100kHz designs; really, op amps are literally perfect circuits - at least that's what I keep trying to tell old fuddy duddies who insist on using transistors in every application). They're all even using the same Sallen-Key topology, not that it matters anyway - hey, fewer components...that's a good thing. I am also going by the general concensus that I've seen in forums that place Zapco amplifiers above most any others. Tough to associate one level of quality to an entire manufacturer when they're putting out different lines under the same name. There are, or at least were, some cheapo Zapco amps being sold by sounddomain and others not too long ago. Those ugly little white things. I bought one. I saw nothing that set it apart from any other amp I've owned. I think you have to avoid saying "so and so makes the best amplifiers", because just about everyone these days makes several different lines - some cost a fortune and are well built and have some sort of feature that makes them special - others are simply generic. I shouldn't say this is a new thing, because Sony and Kenwood have been doing it for years. Nowadays, when you look at Pioneer they're putting out the cheapest crap imaginable to some outlets, and then some very nice equipment elsewhere. For years, Autotek has had their Mean Machine line which is very good and then their el cheapo line which is generic. From what I hear, Lanzar is doing the same sort of thing. I did do a little more research after posting this, and there is a feature on the AG650 that I think I is worth the extra: the crossovers have a x10 feature, so I can use the to bi-amp the front components without even needing external crossovers. Just for that feature, I may get the Zapco, unless someone in this group can recommend some other 6-channel amplifier that has the x10 crossover feature. That'll probably be pretty useful, and may be justification enough for the added expense. I've been "tri-amping" for years, and for most of the time I've done it with a/d/s/ amps. They don't have a x10 feature, but their xovers go up to the kHz range and are HP/LP/BP selectable. The little knobs usually aren't accurate anyway, so I use my ear moreso than the numbers on the dial. I recently bought an Orion 4-channel that has pretty extensive crossovers too, and that thing's a beast and reasonably priced. I don't know if they make a 6 channel. There are of course external crossovers to buy, but I can understand trying to keep the number of components down - besides, some have been known to be prone to ground loops which is just an added hassle. Thanks for the good advice. I think headroom wasn't really the right term there, I really meant they they are "overdesigned" in a general sense. Whether the difference is audible or not is debatable, but reliability-wise, it can't hurt. And I do want to avoid external crossovers, since my setup is going to be really, really non standard (there is no head unit, everything is run off a PC in the trunk, with a touchscreen in the dash, with oudio output run from a M-audio professionnal PCI sound card, striaght into the amp with very little wire in-between (probably 12 inches). I have an oscilloscope to set the crossovers, and I have access to a portable spectrum analyzer from work if need be (I work in wireless telecom research, mostly in the GHz range though). And the fact that there's a computer in there means that I can use a software RTA in the cabin to see what's happening as I tune. I will take a look at a/d/s/ amps though, I've heard good things about them. Luc |
#6
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Thanks for the good advice. I think headroom wasn't really the right
term there, I really meant they they are "overdesigned" in a general sense. Whether the difference is audible or not is debatable, but reliability-wise, it can't hurt. And I do want to avoid external crossovers, since my setup is going to be really, really non standard (there is no head unit, everything is run off a PC in the trunk, with a touchscreen in the dash, with oudio output run from a M-audio professionnal PCI sound card, striaght into the amp with very little wire in-between (probably 12 inches). I have an oscilloscope to set the crossovers, and I have access to a portable spectrum analyzer from work if need be (I work in wireless telecom research, mostly in the GHz range though). And the fact that there's a computer in there means that I can use a software RTA in the cabin to see what's happening as I tune. I'm also running a car PC. I just bought a pair of these crossovers: http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG Digital input. 6 individually adjustable outputs per unit - separate crossover settings, delay, phase, level control for each speaker...all adjustable from the PC. You can download the software on the site to try it out. |
#7
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In article 2005053122512916807%luc@rfmanca,
Luc Delorme wrote: Hello, I am overhauling my car audio system and I want to get a 6-channel to bi-amplify my front components (will be Illusion Audio mid-bass with tweeters yet to be determined). I had originally looked at the JL Audio e6450, which I can get locally for about 540 Canadian dollars. The shop also had a Zapco AG650 that had remained in inventory for a few years that they wanted to get rid of. Its also 6 channels, and I'm aware that it's a better quality amplifier than the JL, but I'm not sure if the difference will be audible. They were asking 770$CDN for the Zapco, saying that that was their cost for it. Do you think it's worth the extra 230$ for the Zapco, or would the JL be sufficient for use with those speakers? I might also try to get the rice of the Zapco down even more if I can but I'm not certain whether they'll budge or not. Thanks for your input to a newbit to this group. Luc Delorme a.k.a. RFMan a better comparison would be between the AG650 and the 500/5. i have owned amps from both companies and don't think you would go wrong either way. |
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