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#1
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
Has anybody used these mixers?
I was surprised when I saw them. The 802 resembles the 1202, which is a good mixer. But man is the 402 small. It reminds me of a cruddy Behringer whatever midget model. The form factor on the 402 is so small, I'm having a hard time believing its not a hiss machine. I'm excited Mackie decided to make this and hit the $100 price point. But man is this thing small. I can't imagine how the power supply can be good and how this thing has adequate transformer isolation. I took a look at the pictures, and it looks like the 402 and 802 have a customized power input jack. This leads me to believe they both use external power supplies. Any thoughts on this? I know the 1202 uses an internal power supply and its a solid mixer for the money. The external (?) power supplies make me wonder if the 402 and 802 really produce the same signal quality results as the 1202. If these boards really do perform sonically identical to the 1202 (but with less inputs/outputs and signal routing) then that's amazing. But if it's a trade-off on signal-to-noise, hiss, linearity, distortion, headroom and slew rates, then that's really more trouble than it's worth. |
#2
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
genericaudioperson wrote:
The form factor on the 402 is so small, I'm having a hard time believing its not a hiss machine. I'm excited Mackie decided to make this and hit the $100 price point. But man is this thing small. I can't imagine how the power supply can be good and how this thing has adequate transformer isolation. Size has nothing to do with hiss. It's small because it doesn't have many inputs, outputs, or controls. The power supply is external and is as good as any other Chinese line lump. It has a locking connector which takes it a step above your usual easy-to-pull-out coaxial power plug. There are no input or output transformers, not on this model, not on any Mackie mixer. I have one and use it on my workbench when I need a mic preamp or a line level output. It's not likely that many of these will get used as band PA mixers, but it's a fine front and back end for a desktop DAW setup for recording from one or two mics. The preamps are the standard VLZ3 series (XDR2, I think they call it) and it sounds just like a 1604 VLZ3 without all the EQ, inputs, and outputs. It's very solidly built and it's just fine if it suits your needs as a mixer. But look closely to be sure it's not missing anything you need, like pan pots, for instance. There's a switch that lets you send one input to both outputs (like panning one mic to the center) or send one mic to the left output and the other to the right output. That's as fancy as it gets. Mackie makes a lot of different mixers, each one more appropriate for something than the others. The trick, if you don't want to spend the money for a fully featured mixer, is to pick out the one that leave off things you don't need, but has things you do need. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#3
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
Thanks for your insights, Mr. Rivers.
You know a lot more about the internal workings of electronics than I do. I was thinking there might be a drop in signal quality between the 1202VLZ3 and the smaller 802 and 402 models. This is because the 1202VLZ3 has an internal power supply. But you don't see a difference in performance (other than less channels and less routing, etc.)? This is for a minimalist setup to support a mostly acoustic sound output. |
#4
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
genericaudioperson wrote:
I was thinking there might be a drop in signal quality between the 1202VLZ3 and the smaller 802 and 402 models. This is because the 1202VLZ3 has an internal power supply. That's not entirely a bogus concept - the power supply is an important part of the design of any piece of electronic equipment. An inadequate power supply can indeed degrade the performance. But it doesn't matter whether the power supply is internal or external as long as it provides enough power, proper isolation from the power line, and proper grounding for whatever it's powering. My experience with these mixers is that the external power supply is just fine. I think it's less convenient than an internal power supply, but then it's less expensive, too, which allows the company to sell the unit for less money. This is for a minimalist setup to support a mostly acoustic sound output. It will do fine. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#5
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
I think there is a rule that if you have an internal power supply, you
have to pay $20 or $30k to have United Laboratories certify the device for safety. But if you use an external supply, you can simply use an off-the-shelf box and do not require the certification. So in lower- priced models (less margin), the manufucturer would want to avoid the certification fee. I heard something vaguely like this, but I could be completely off. It's an interesting piece of information that I'm curious is true or not. |
#6
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
genericaudioperson wrote:
I think there is a rule that if you have an internal power supply, you have to pay $20 or $30k to have United Laboratories certify the device for safety. But if you use an external supply, you can simply use an off-the-shelf box and do not require the certification. It's sort of like that. The device with the AC power plug on it has to be safety certified. In Europe, it's CE, and that's even more stringent than UL. So if they buy an already-certified external power supply that has a sufficiently low voltage output, then this saves the manufacturer money. Another advantage of an external power supply for analog audio products is that it gets the transformers away from the innards where it could induce hum. Still, some decide to use an internal power supply because they think it makes a better product. It's true that you're likely to find an external power supply in a low priced product, but the $300 Behringer mixer I recently reviewed had an internal power supply. It's a choice the manufacturer has to make. Part of that choice is ergonomics, part is perception, and part is cost. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#7
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Mackie 402-VLZ3, 802-VLZ3
"Mike Rivers" wrote...
genericaudioperson wrote: I think there is a rule that if you have an internal power supply, you have to pay $20 or $30k to have United Laboratories certify the device for safety. But if you use an external supply, you can simply use an off-the-shelf box and do not require the certification. It's sort of like that. The device with the AC power plug on it has to be safety certified. In Europe, it's CE, and that's even more stringent than UL. So if they buy an already-certified external power supply that has a sufficiently low voltage output, then this saves the manufacturer money. Another advantage of an external power supply for analog audio products is that it gets the transformers away from the innards where it could induce hum. Still, some decide to use an internal power supply because they think it makes a better product. It's true that you're likely to find an external power supply in a low priced product, but the $300 Behringer mixer I recently reviewed had an internal power supply. It's a choice the manufacturer has to make. Part of that choice is ergonomics, part is perception, and part is cost. Not to mention that very high-end mixers (and other high end equipment) often use external power supplies for other reasons (such as space utilization, heat/noise management, etc. etc.) Another factor is globalization. If you want to make your product attractive to anyone on the planet, an easy way to accommodate the various mains power standards (and the various certifications as you mentioned) is to use a pre-certified external PS which either is made specifically for 100/120/240V and 50Hz/60Hz, or one which automatically accommodates all the variations (typically the more contemporary switchmode power supplies, etc.) Here is one manufacturer's explanation for your amusement... http://www.fmraudio.com/FAQ.htm#question1 |
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