[Nate Najar]

I need 2 more preamp channels, but I wouldn't mind getting 4 more. Money is always a concern, but there are many second hand deals to be had. I'm leaning toward Millennias- I had a 2 channel a handful of years ago and I was really happy with it. But I'm wondering, would my dynamics (re15, re20 and 57) sound better with something like a hardy (I'm specifically referring to the existence of a transformer input) or a GR MP2/4? The re15 and 20 especially need a lot of gain and the preamps in my prism orpheus are too noisy when you get to 45-50db of gain.

If it weren't for the dynamics, I would probably just get a few RNP's which sound fine, especially with the Schoeps. Then again, there are deals to be had on older millennias.....

The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics, and I suppose they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out, but I am curious as to others' experience (if any) along those lines.

by the way, the lesson here is don't sell things. If I never sold my millennia I'd still have it. Then again, I sold the millennia to buy the prism converters so it was probably still a smart move....

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 17-05-2016 21:37, Nate Najar wrote:

I need 2 more preamp channels, but I wouldn't mind getting 4 more.
Money is always a concern, but there are many second hand deals to
be had. I'm leaning toward Millennias- I had a 2 channel a handful
of years ago and I was really happy with it. But I'm wondering,
would my dynamics (re15, re20 and 57) sound better with something like
a hardy (I'm specifically referring to the existence of a transformer
input) or a GR MP2/4? The re15 and 20 especially need a lot of gain
and the preamps in my prism orpheus are too noisy when you get to 45-50db
of gain.

A transformer in the signal path is in my opinion a special effect. One
that may be relevant in a context or not, that is an artistic choice.

If it weren't for the dynamics, I would probably just get a few RNP's
which sound fine, especially with the Schoeps. Then again, there are
deals to be had on older millennias.....

Are the RNP's really too noisy for dynamics? - my cheap soundcraft desk
does it well with an SM7 on vox ...

The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics,
and I suppose they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out,

As I remember those too constitute special effects devices.

but I am curious as to others' experience (if any) along those lines.

For higher fi: use fewer and better components in the signal path.

by the way, the lesson here is don't sell things.

Some newsgroup participants have tried that strategy. There are issues
with it to be aware of.

If I never sold my millennia I'd still have it. Then again, I sold the
millennia to buy the prism converters so it was probably still a smart
move....

Well, if you hadn't sold your Josephsons I hadn't ended up having four
of them and getting acquinted with microphone high end. On the initial
test they beat a pair of Schoeps sub cardioids on string quartet in a
reverberant hall. So thank you again, one can not always choose, I once
had to choose parting with a Radford STA25 with an aging pcb. And yes, I
still miss it occasionally, but I don't miss sitting and listening and
wondering when I should replace the valves and what it taugth me about
cymbal reproduction is still with me.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/18/2016 2:02 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics,
and I suppose they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out,

As I remember those too constitute special effects devices.

I don't know about similar devices, but the Cloudlifter is for real.
It's clean and quiet and provides 20 dB or so of gain ahead of the mic
preamp. With an input impedance of around 3k ohms and no transformer, it
might even be better with a dynamic mic than a vintage ribbon.

I think it's worth a try, and if buying one new, it can always be
returned for a refund.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 18-05-2016 12:38, Mike Rivers wrote:

On 5/18/2016 2:02 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics,
and I suppose they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out,

As I remember those too constitute special effects devices.

I don't know about similar devices, but the Cloudlifter is for real.
It's clean and quiet and provides 20 dB or so of gain ahead of the mic
preamp. With an input impedance of around 3k ohms and no transformer, it
might even be better with a dynamic mic than a vintage ribbon.

It had to happen some day - after 26 years or so on the Usenet I was
plain wrong, very interesting, thank you!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



I think it's worth a try, and if buying one new, it can always be
returned for a refund.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/18/2016 2:02 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics,
and I suppose they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out,

As I remember those too constitute special effects devices.

I don't know about similar devices, but the Cloudlifter is for real.
It's clean and quiet and provides 20 dB or so of gain ahead of the mic
preamp. With an input impedance of around 3k ohms and no transformer, it
might even be better with a dynamic mic than a vintage ribbon.

Microphones like the SM-57 which are designed for use with transformer
inputs rely on the load impedance for damping. These microphones will
ring severely into a high impedance load like the Cloudlifter or for
that matter like a Millennia HV-3.

The Cloudlifter is basically a workaround for dealing with low grade
preamps, or for preamps that aren't designed for ribbon microphones which
want to see a high-Z load. It does that very well, but it's not a thing
that will help here.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Nate Najar wrote:
I need 2 more preamp channels, but I wouldn't mind getting 4 more. Money i=
s always a concern, but there are many second hand deals to be had. I'm le=
aning toward Millennias- I had a 2 channel a handful of years ago and I was=
really happy with it. But I'm wondering, would my dynamics (re15, re20 an=
d 57) sound better with something like a hardy (I'm specifically referring =
to the existence of a transformer input) or a GR MP2/4? The re15 and 20 es=
pecially need a lot of gain and the preamps in my prism orpheus are too noi=
sy when you get to 45-50db of gain. =20

In general, more efficient dynamic mikes are more touchy about loading than
less efficient ones. The RE-20 and Sennheiser 441 are comparatively immune
to changes in loads, as is the old EV 635A. The SM-57 and Sennheiser 421
are quite touchy about loads.

So... the question becomes what microphones are you going to be using and
how do you want them to sound?

In the case of most of these microphones, a shunt resistor will do a lot
to make them see a proper load. This will be noisier than using a
transformer but in the case of the SM-57 that's seldom an issue.

If it weren't for the dynamics, I would probably just get a few RNP's which=
sound fine, especially with the Schoeps. Then again, there are deals to b=
e had on older millennias.....

The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics, and I suppo=
se they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out, but I am curious as =
to others' experience (if any) along those lines.

They aren't intended for dynamic mikes so much as for ribbons that want to
see high-Z loads. They are intended for people who bought the John Hardy
and now want to put an RCA 44 on them.

by the way, the lesson here is don't sell things. If I never sold my mille=
nnia I'd still have it. Then again, I sold the millennia to buy the prism =
converters so it was probably still a smart move....

I never get rid of anything. My wife is increasingly upset about this, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Peter Larsen wrote:
On 17-05-2016 21:37, Nate Najar wrote:

I need 2 more preamp channels, but I wouldn't mind getting 4 more.
Money is always a concern, but there are many second hand deals to
be had. I'm leaning toward Millennias- I had a 2 channel a handful
of years ago and I was really happy with it. But I'm wondering,
would my dynamics (re15, re20 and 57) sound better with something like
a hardy (I'm specifically referring to the existence of a transformer
input) or a GR MP2/4? The re15 and 20 especially need a lot of gain
and the preamps in my prism orpheus are too noisy when you get to 45-50db
of gain.

A transformer in the signal path is in my opinion a special effect. One
that may be relevant in a context or not, that is an artistic choice.

In the case of a mike preamp, a transformer is a good way to make sure the
microphone sees the load it's designed for, while having as good S/N as
possible.

You can add a resistor and possibly an inductor shunt and an SM-57 will be
just as happy as it will be into a transformer, but doing this will degrade
S/N somewhat.

Dynamic microphones that rely on the load impedance to provide mechanical
damping tend to want to see a very specific load, and usually a transformer
beats lumped-sum elements if that load is pretty low-Z.

The SM-57 is everyone's favorite example... it rings severely due to the
mechanical effect of diaphragm bouncing around if it doesn't see the right
load. Some people like that ringing on snares, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[PStamler]

In my experience, the RE15 doesn't much care about the load -- it used mechanical damping rather than electrical damping.

You might look into a couple of Little Labs' LMNOPres. They use transformer inputs, and are nice and quiet. My experience was that they sound best (most neutral) with the *output* transformers bypassed.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/18/2016 2:09 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics, and I suppo=
se they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out, but I am curious as =
to others' experience (if any) along those lines.

They aren't intended for dynamic mikes so much as for ribbons that want to
see high-Z loads. They are intended for people who bought the John Hardy
and now want to put an RCA 44 on them.

3 kΩ is high Z? It's a little higher than your run-of-the-mill
transformerless mixer input, which tends to run around 2.5 kΩ. The RCA
mics like to see something above 10 kΩ, which is why the AEA preamps are
around 18 kΩ. Since the Cloud mics, at least the ones made when they
brought out the Cloudlifter, are based on the RCA 44, so I queried them
about the relatively low (for that mic) input impedance. Roger said that
it works fine.

As I recall from Paul Stamler's experiments, the SM57 was smoothest when
loaded with 600Ω, but that figure is missed by any variable input
impedance preamp I've run across. He recommended measuring the input
impedance of the preamp that you'll want to use the SM57 with most,
calculate the value of a shunt resistor that brings the load to 600Ω,
and make up a short cable with that value resistor connected between
pins 2 and 3.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Nate Najar]

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 4:37:50 PM UTC-4, Nate Najar wrote:
I need 2 more preamp channels, but I wouldn't mind getting 4 more. Money is always a concern, but there are many second hand deals to be had. I'm leaning toward Millennias- I had a 2 channel a handful of years ago and I was really happy with it. But I'm wondering, would my dynamics (re15, re20 and 57) sound better with something like a hardy (I'm specifically referring to the existence of a transformer input) or a GR MP2/4? The re15 and 20 especially need a lot of gain and the preamps in my prism orpheus are too noisy when you get to 45-50db of gain.

If it weren't for the dynamics, I would probably just get a few RNP's which sound fine, especially with the Schoeps. Then again, there are deals to be had on older millennias.....

The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics, and I suppose they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out, but I am curious as to others' experience (if any) along those lines.

by the way, the lesson here is don't sell things. If I never sold my millennia I'd still have it. Then again, I sold the millennia to buy the prism converters so it was probably still a smart move....


great discussion thank you!

Based on what I read here, I'm going to go with the Millennia. There are plenty of good deals on the "b" versions right now.....

There was a 2 ch Hardy on ebay that ended this afternoon and I got in a bidding war with someone... if it was someone on this group, I'm sorry I ran the price up on you!

[PStamler]

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 2:40:57 PM UTC-5, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/18/2016 2:09 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The other option is a cloud lifter type thing for the dynamics, and I suppo=
se they're inexpensive enough to just buy and try out, but I am curious as =
to others' experience (if any) along those lines.

They aren't intended for dynamic mikes so much as for ribbons that want to
see high-Z loads. They are intended for people who bought the John Hardy
and now want to put an RCA 44 on them.

3 kΩ is high Z? It's a little higher than your run-of-the-mill
transformerless mixer input, which tends to run around 2.5 kΩ. The RCA
mics like to see something above 10 kΩ, which is why the AEA preamps are
around 18 kΩ. Since the Cloud mics, at least the ones made when they
brought out the Cloudlifter, are based on the RCA 44, so I queried them
about the relatively low (for that mic) input impedance. Roger said that
it works fine.

As I recall from Paul Stamler's experiments, the SM57 was smoothest when
loaded with 600Ω, but that figure is missed by any variable input
impedance preamp I've run across. He recommended measuring the input
impedance of the preamp that you'll want to use the SM57 with most,
calculate the value of a shunt resistor that brings the load to 600Ω,
and make up a short cable with that value resistor connected between
pins 2 and 3.

Actually, my experiments tested the SM57 with 2k and 500 ohms, the two impedances available on the UA 2-610 preamp. We repeated tham using a parallel resistor, but again the low impedance we tried was about 500 ohms, just because we wanted it to as close as possible to the 2-610's. The 57 sounded way better (cleaner) with 500 than 2k.

Peace,
Paul

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

PStamler wrote:



" Actually, my experiments tested the SM57 with 2k and 500 ohms,
the two impedances available on the UA 2-610 preamp. We repeated
tham using a parallel resistor, but again the low impedance we
tried was about 500 ohms, just because we wanted it to as close
as possible to the 2-610's. The 57 sounded way better (cleaner)
with 500 than 2k. "


** The impedance of an SM57 or 58 is close to 300ohms at mid frequencies - ie 300Hz to 4kHz.

There a broad diaphragm resonance centered on 140Hz at which the impedance is 470 ohms. Voice coil and internal transformer inductance together cause a gradual rise in impedance to about 500 ohms at 16kHz.

Adding a 500ohm resistor across the mic would reduce the output by 6dB at these two frequencies while reducing the mid frequency output by 4dB - so a 2dB difference in response.

Another effect is caused by cable capacitance which, depending on the cable used and its length, causes a significant *response* peak somewhere in the range from 10Khz to 50Khz. The same 500ohm resistor as above pretty much eliminates this peak.

The 2dB drop at 16kHz and elimination of the high frequency cable resonance effect is likely what you hear when the mic is bridged by 500ohms.


..... Phil

[jason]

On Wed, 18 May 2016 17:54:33 +0100 "Peter Larsen"
wrote in article
It had to happen some day - after 26 years or so on the Usenet I was
plain wrong


Congratulations! I think I didn't even get to 3 months...