I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
something that all of you who are interested in their products should
know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.

Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
that's understandable.

The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
of their products in collusion with their retailers.

Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?

I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.

In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
managers.

If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
Exile and let them know about it.

Don Carroll

The people who started exile were former engineers from Phoenix Gold. The fact
is that their gear is a knock-off of their own designs that belong to Phoenix
Gold.

Exile unlike Phoenix Gold is not a big brand name that is well known and might
be hard to move unless dirt cheap. This might not be the best brand to carry.



In article om, "FaxMeBeer"
wrote:
I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
something that all of you who are interested in their products should
know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.

Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
that's understandable.

The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
of their products in collusion with their retailers.

Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?

I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.

In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
managers.

If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
Exile and let them know about it.

Don Carroll

I understand, Captain, it's really more the principal of the thing.
Exile is pretty cheap, and that's cool because I want to be able to
serve people who don't neccessarily have the money for the "best"
products (the best is usually dictated by what you can buy and still
eat).

What I don't appreciate is Exile putting derogatory comments about
online retailers right on their site. If they don't want to deal with
certain retailers, it's there right, but why talk about all of us as if
we're just rip-off artists? We're all trying to do business just like
Exile is -- there are some rip-offs, but there are in every business,
regardless of whether they own a shop, or sell online. And, in the
end, if I've got customers who want to buy Exile, I'm selling Exile,
whether the manufacturer likes it or not.


Captain Howdy wrote:
The people who started exile were former engineers from Phoenix Gold. The fact
is that their gear is a knock-off of their own designs that belong to Phoenix
Gold.

Exile unlike Phoenix Gold is not a big brand name that is well known and might
be hard to move unless dirt cheap. This might not be the best brand to carry.



In article om, "FaxMeBeer"
wrote:
I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
something that all of you who are interested in their products should
know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.

Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
that's understandable.

The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
of their products in collusion with their retailers.

Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?

I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.

In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
managers.

If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
Exile and let them know about it.

Don Carroll

Exile is actually a very good brand. The reason they don't want
internet sales is to support local dealers, the way it should be.
There's no conspiracy theory as to why they don't want internet sales.
If you have questions, e-mail


--
Francious70

I see where you're comming from and if you can get your hands on their gear
then sell it. MTX does the same thing on their website and I strongly feel
that it's only about price control, as most of the unauthorized resellers are
under cutting the hell out of the authorized resellers. But at the same time
companies like MTX sell to big box stores that liquidate their overstocks and
store-returns to people that sell on Ebay.


In article . com, "FaxMeBeer"
wrote:
I understand, Captain, it's really more the principal of the thing.
Exile is pretty cheap, and that's cool because I want to be able to
serve people who don't neccessarily have the money for the "best"
products (the best is usually dictated by what you can buy and still
eat).

What I don't appreciate is Exile putting derogatory comments about
online retailers right on their site. If they don't want to deal with
certain retailers, it's there right, but why talk about all of us as if
we're just rip-off artists? We're all trying to do business just like
Exile is -- there are some rip-offs, but there are in every business,
regardless of whether they own a shop, or sell online. And, in the
end, if I've got customers who want to buy Exile, I'm selling Exile,
whether the manufacturer likes it or not.


Captain Howdy wrote:
The people who started exile were former engineers from Phoenix Gold. The
fact
is that their gear is a knock-off of their own designs that belong to
Phoenix
Gold.

Exile unlike Phoenix Gold is not a big brand name that is well known and
might
be hard to move unless dirt cheap. This might not be the best brand to carry.



In article om, "FaxMeBeer"
wrote:
I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
something that all of you who are interested in their products should
know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.

Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
that's understandable.

The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
of their products in collusion with their retailers.

Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?

I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.

In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
managers.

If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
Exile and let them know about it.

Don Carroll

The way it should be? LOL

In article , Francious70
wrote:

Exile is actually a very good brand. The reason they don't want
internet sales is to support local dealers, the way it should be.
There's no conspiracy theory as to why they don't want internet sales.
If you have questions, e-mail

The Sherman Anti-trust Act doesn't think that's the way it should be
("...For example, where competitors agree to sell their goods or
services at a specified price, minimum price or maximum price and they
receive profits from such an agreement, they are in violation of price
fixing."). There is a reason that businesses aren't allowed to
collude. I understand that there are legal loop-holes that allow
manufactuers to use "exclusive" deals, but that doesn't make it right.
If the buying public doesn't appreciate Exile and it's retailers
actively working against them, then the buying public should be
encouraged to let Exile know. I'm encouraging.

I also encourage employees of Exile, such as Francious, to address the
concerns that I've already outlined to them via e-mail, rather than
debating the issue on message boards, and making themselves look worse.

I'm not an employee of Exile, just an audio enthusist such as yourself.


--
Francious70

FaxMeBeer Wrote:

I also encourage employees of Exile, such as Francious, to address the
concerns that I've already outlined to them via e-mail, rather than
debating the issue on message boards, and making themselves look worse.

And you debating this tripe on message boards doesn't make you look
like a goon?

Don't like their internet policy, buy something else.


--
jlaine

jlaine, I understand and don't completely dissagree with you. I
certainly would rather not have this conversation in this way. I don't
intend to carry it on long, especially not in this environment, but I
really hoped to let people know about what I feel is an unfair market
practice used by not only Exile, but many manufacturers. As a retailer
who works with customers every day, I feel a duty to speak up if they
are being taken advantage of.

Eclipse, Zapco, Phoenix Gold, Kicker - (insert brand here)...

They all have a no, or limited online policy, and I agree with them
almost 99% of the time. People buying product of the internet typically
are young, inexperienced fools. Selling product with a warranty to
someone that you cannot verify their technical skills and/or even their
general intelligence for that matter, is a lesson in economics you've
apparently not run through yet. You get improperly installed equipment
back in so frequently it is enough to pull your hair out, and ****ed
off 16 year olds who are angry at you for their own stupidity...

I have done it.. And I prefer the face-to-face sale every time -
especially when it involves me installing the product, then I know
exactly what is going on.


--
jlaine

jlaine, come on! So you're saying that the average guy (or woman) who
buys their Kicker Amp at Circuit City is somehow intellectually and
technically superior to the guy who feels that he knows enough about
what he's doing to buy his equipment without the help of a sales
associate and so saves 20% or 30% by shopping online?

Other brands: Kicker, Alphasonic, Pioneer, Sony, Alpine,
Infinity...they have a method for becoming an authorized retailer
online. Some brands do not. Those brands which don't are only trying
to protect one thing: the base price of their products.

You give online sales far too much credit - but on top of that you
weren't able to read my statement properly.

You assume that the average guy can properly install and troubleshoot
various portions of a system, and to extend beyond that - properly set
it up, tune it within its allowable limitations to minimize returns
from abuse, and secure everything.

Save your 20 to 30%, I say you lose your warranty in the process, and
I'm fine with the manufacturers not supporting online sales. I wouldn't
either - you have no idea how your product is being installed or treated
in the process with that system - at least with a dealer network you
have some level of checks and balances.

Your conspiracy theory is foolish, MSRP is MSRP no matter the brand. No
dealer is mandated to hold to it - just because you're afraid of walking
into a car electronics store and haggling a little doesn't make your
method better.


--
jlaine

"You assume that the average guy can properly install and troubleshoot
various portions of a system, and to extend beyond that - properly set
it up, tune it within its allowable limitations to minimize returns
from abuse, and secure everything."

I don't assume anything. I'm pointing out the lack of logic in a
position which maintains that a guy who walks into a brick-and-motor
store and buys an Amp cash-and-carry is somehow more technically savvy
and more intelligent than someone who buys the same product for less
money online.

If the issue was about how well the component would be installed, then
the manufacturers wouldn't worry about where the part was sold, but who
installed it. The manufactuers (those that I'm aware of and work with)
don't have warranty restrictions on installs done by non-authorized
facilities or individuals, so the manufacturers obviously don't share
your concern with the quality of installation.

I'll quote Exile directly, "You will not find our products sold [in the
world of] online predators with ridiculous special prices and hidden
shipping charges." They aren't concerned with the quality of
installation, they're concerned with companies with much smaller
overhead than brick-and-mortor stores impacting the price-point of
their products (once your product starts selling for $200.00, it's more
difficult to put out products in the future at $700.00). As far as the
shipping charges, they certainly aren't hidden, and they should be
taken into account in the final price (my site quotes the shipping
charges prior to payment being made).

It's illogical to say that shipping charges make online purchases less
attractive. I'd say that by purchasing from your local audio shop,
you're paying "hidden" sales taxes (as high as 9% in some places),
rent, electric bills, sales associate's commissions, "loss" (due to
employee theft), and various other "hidden fees" that are associated
with traditional retail establishments. That's why I can sell for cost
+ 15% to 30% while the brick-and-motor stores are selling for cost +
100% or more. Shipping costs notwithstanding.

Further, manufacturers use these "authorized dealers" arrangements to
restrict competition. I just spoke with the buyer for a very large
electronics retailer the yesterday who informed me that his company had
been cut off by Infinity (not completely cut off, but left only with
the lower rung Infinity products) for selling a rival brand.
Manufacturers of all sorts of products, from Sodas to Cars, engage in
these practices and it is never for the benefit of the consumer. You
can read on Exile's forums that it's doing the same thing, as a few new
dealers have commented on having to "get rid of some lines" in order to
carry Exile. I'm sure that has more to do with Exile's marketing
department than any decision by the retailer to limit it's offerings on
their own.


P. S.:

"just because you're afraid of walking
into a car electronics store and haggling a little doesn't make your
method better." If you can get your local audio shop to consistantly
sell to you at what I can sell for, then more power to you. As their
overhead is so much higher than mine, they'd have a hell of a time
selling their products at those prices for too long while staying in
business.

And so on and so forth...

Apparently you haven't read many warranties, several limit the warranty
period if the items are not installed by an authorized person from their
list - Eclipse being one of them. Guess that means they agree with me,
not to mention the fact they try to avoid online sales just further
strengthens my point.

Exile can do what they want with their own products. I encourage them
to continue to do exactly what they are doing, which is maintaining
support for a dealer network and minimizing the potential for
unauthorized sales.

Buy something else if you don't like it - believe it or not, internet
sales are barely a fraction of what the brick stores can do, and with
that venue at least they have someone in the industry that should have
a decent idea of how to install things. Given that, they're already
much further ahead than what the grand internet offers - because at the
end of the day, one disgruntled internet vendor such as yourself means
nothing to a company when compared next to the several hundred percent
increase in "warranty claims" that happens when one opens the venue to
"authorized" internet sales.


--
jlaine

I will offer my $.02 to this discussion...

Car audio products ARE DIFFERENT than many other electronic devices sold
both retail and on the internet. Specifically, if a kid buys an iPod
online, it is very unlikely he will blow the thing up by connecting the
headphone jack or USB cable incorrectly. However, when it comes to kids and
amps/subwoofers, this is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!!!!!! Anyone
involved in this industry (be it manufacturerer, retailer both on-line and
brick and mortar and the consumer) should be aware of this and act
accordingly. I see NOTHING WRONG with manufacturerers wanting to only sell
their products through brick-and-mortar establishments for this reason (when
I worked at Phoenix Gold, we ONLY sold to brick-and-mortar), nor do I think
there is anything wrong with warning people of the pitfalls of trying to do
their own installations without proper knowledge. I also think IT IS
EXTEMELY WISE to limit warranties to AUTHORIZED INSTALLATIONS ONLY.

Frankly, I ALWAYS tell younger people and those with no car stereo
experience to have their gear installed professionally. The problem,
however, is that when the 16 year old gets his new car audio gear that he
ordered online, the temptation to put it in himself is often too great.
When buying at a brick and mortar, however, installation is often free for
HU's and speakers and the retailer will wisely encourge the buyer to have
his stuff installed there.

Again, I'm not a dumb guy, YET I've fried my share of gear when I first
started out. This indistry IS DIFFERENT than other consumer electronics.

MOSFET

MOSFET wrote:
I will offer my $.02 to this discussion...

Car audio products ARE DIFFERENT than many other electronic devices sold
both retail and on the internet. Specifically, if a kid buys an iPod
online, it is very unlikely he will blow the thing up by connecting the
headphone jack or USB cable incorrectly. However, when it comes to kids and
amps/subwoofers, this is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!!!!!! Anyone
involved in this industry (be it manufacturerer, retailer both on-line and
brick and mortar and the consumer) should be aware of this and act
accordingly. I see NOTHING WRONG with manufacturerers wanting to only sell
their products through brick-and-mortar establishments for this reason (when
I worked at Phoenix Gold, we ONLY sold to brick-and-mortar), nor do I think
there is anything wrong with warning people of the pitfalls of trying to do
their own installations without proper knowledge. I also think IT IS
EXTEMELY WISE to limit warranties to AUTHORIZED INSTALLATIONS ONLY.

Frankly, I ALWAYS tell younger people and those with no car stereo
experience to have their gear installed professionally. The problem,
however, is that when the 16 year old gets his new car audio gear that he
ordered online, the temptation to put it in himself is often too great.
When buying at a brick and mortar, however, installation is often free for
HU's and speakers and the retailer will wisely encourge the buyer to have
his stuff installed there.

Again, I'm not a dumb guy, YET I've fried my share of gear when I first
started out. This indistry IS DIFFERENT than other consumer electronics.

MOSFET

Well said.

Home-stereo gear CAN be friend by the average unexperienced or idiot
home-installer, but it's WAY more difficult to do, especially since a
lot of newer stuff comes with all manner of color-coded connectors.
Same is true with most other electrical and electronic devices
(120V-powered electrical stuff, like appliances, is very strictly
regulated for consumer safety).


---
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Virus Database (VPS): 0619-3, 05/12/2006
Tested on: 5/13/2006 10:26:43 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Mosfet, I don't dissagree with the issues surrounding installs, but
that entire portion of this discussion is a Straw Man. Even if I
contracted with certified installers in every city that I ship products
to, still some companies, such as Exile, would not allow me to sell
their products. That is a detriment to the consumer, clear and simple.
It is also a detriment to those of us who are attempting to build a
business which offers those products that customers want. Granted,
only two customers have asked for this particular brand, but Exile is
not the only manufacturer which engages in this type of market
manipulation (though the list is shrinking; I was given authorization
by Kicker to sell their products online last month, for instance).
jlaine correctly points out that even for those manufacturers whose
warranties are affected by whom the components were installed, the
warranty is not voided, it's adjusted. The list of manufacturers that
go that far is very short.

The other issue is for a business to engage in highly slanderous
generalizations in an attempt to hide their own questionable acts,
i.e.: "online predators with ridiculous special prices and hidden
shipping charges." Statements like that reflect directly upon my
business, my ability to earn an honest living.

I'd encourage you to look beyond the issue of installs and how
professional they are; every manufacturer that I'm aware of will allow
it's brick and mortor stores to sell components directly to consumers
without having it installed at the retailer's location, or by someone
the retailer has contracted with. Maybe it gets installed
professionally, maybe it doesn't. I've also sat here and read through
about ten different warranties, and while all require proof that the
part was purchased by an "authorized dealer or distributor", none of
them require proof of where the components were installed.

And jlaine is also correct that Exile can sell to whom they wish. I've
got a right to call into question any other company which calls my
business "predatory" and which accuses me of hiding costs from my
customer. I would not, under any circumstances, put statements on my
website about the various rip-offs associated with buying from a
brick-and-motor store as opposed to purchasing online. I wouldn't call
them a bunch of con-artists for passing their various and bloated
(...key term here) costs of doing business on to their customers even
while knowing that the customer could buy the same product for 70% less
elsewhere.

And, for a moment, let's take my company out of the discussion. What
about Crutchfield? That company has been around for, what? 300 years?
Do they have any physical location anywhere? Being without a corner
store in whatever section of America you happen to have been born into,
landed in, or migrated to does not dictate that you can not do a fair
business and take care of your customers. And being part of a big
corporate machine which has the sole purpose of *profit maximazation*
(as opposed to earning a fair profit, two different concepts), doesn't
make, neccessarily, for a qualified sales outlet.

I've really got no more to say on this topic. I will continue to
pursue "authorized status" through those various manufacturers who are
more reasonable than Exile and its ilk, and I will continue to pursue
Exile in particular until they remove their slanderous remarks about my
business (and those like it) from their website.

Mosfet, I don't dissagree with the issues surrounding installs, but
that entire portion of this discussion is a Straw Man.

I don't know enough about your specific business and Exile to speak
intelligently about your situation, that was not my intention. My sole
intention was to point out that the installation part of this business makes
it very, very, very different than other consumer electronics sales. Your
last Email seems to imply that this is just one small part of this issue. I
did not focus on installation because it represents a "straw man" argument,
from what I have seen, it is often the central issue when it comes to
deciding marketing strategies, distribution strategies, warranties, etc.
COUNTLESS companies have found (often through bitter tears) that often the
difference between a satisfied customer and a ****ed off customer is a
professional installation. I know this FIRST HAND from working in the
marketing dept. at Phoenix Gold (I have an MBA, not that that makes my
opinions more valid than yours).

I think you underestimate the importance of this issue.

MOSFET

MOSFET wrote:
Mosfet, I don't dissagree with the issues surrounding installs, but
that entire portion of this discussion is a Straw Man.


I don't know enough about your specific business and Exile to speak
intelligently about your situation, that was not my intention. My sole
intention was to point out that the installation part of this business makes
it very, very, very different than other consumer electronics sales. Your
last Email seems to imply that this is just one small part of this issue. I
did not focus on installation because it represents a "straw man" argument,
from what I have seen, it is often the central issue when it comes to
deciding marketing strategies, distribution strategies, warranties, etc.
COUNTLESS companies have found (often through bitter tears) that often the
difference between a satisfied customer and a ****ed off customer is a
professional installation. I know this FIRST HAND from working in the
marketing dept. at Phoenix Gold (I have an MBA, not that that makes my
opinions more valid than yours).

I think you underestimate the importance of this issue.

Actually, there's a standing discussion of a very similar issue over in
alt.security.alarms - DIYers are the bane of that industry as well, as a
poor install can make all the difference in whether an alarm/security
system works properly or not... and a security system that doesn't work
properly is about as useful as a condom full of holes.

Many retailers simply don't sell to DIYers for just that reason. Those
that do have a LOT of fine print to cover their asses against problems
arising from poorly-installed DIY systems. And one guy charges
significantly higher prices for his DIY sales, but also notes very
plainly on his website that this extra cost also includes extensive
phone/email support, and the higher prices are there specifically to
make this worth his time, because as he pointed out in one thread, he's
too often had sales cost him more in support time than he made in profit
on the sale.


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Actually, there's a standing discussion of a very similar issue over in
alt.security.alarms - DIYers are the bane of that industry as well, as a
poor install can make all the difference in whether an alarm/security
system works properly or not... and a security system that doesn't work
properly is about as useful as a condom full of holes.

Many retailers simply don't sell to DIYers for just that reason. Those
that do have a LOT of fine print to cover their asses against problems
arising from poorly-installed DIY systems. And one guy charges
significantly higher prices for his DIY sales, but also notes very plainly
on his website that this extra cost also includes extensive phone/email
support, and the higher prices are there specifically to make this worth
his time, because as he pointed out in one thread, he's too often had
sales cost him more in support time than he made in profit on the sale.

That's interesting. I hadn't even considered the issue of installing car
alarms, but when I think about it, today's sophisticated car alarms are EVEN
MORE DIFFICULT to install than a typical multi-amp car stereo. There are
about a billion things that can go wrong and it takes an INTIMATE knowledge
of your car's electrical system, something 99.9% of consumers DO NOT HAVE.
As comfortable as I am installing audio systems (I have installed DOZENS
over the years), I would not even try to install a sophisticated car alarm
system (with all the bells and whistles) without SOME kind of training
first.

The ONLY subtle difference I see, however, between alarms and audio is that
it seems to me that amps and subwoofers are MUCH more susceptible to damage
due to incompetent installations than alarms. With alarms, it seems
(generally speaking) the worst thing that happens is that the alarm doesn't
work or doesn't work correctly. With audio systems (and in particular
subwoofers and amplifiers), there are MANY ways these components can be
hooked up incorrectly that will cause damage (in particular, too low an
impedance load is A SUPER COMMON MISTAKE and very often will destroy an
amp). And I suppose the other subtle difference is that due to the
complexity of alarm systems, "tech-support" is needed much more for the DIY
alarm installer.

But yes, overall, these are VERY similar issues for retailers, manufacturers
and consumers.

MOSFET

I, too, have an MBA (Accounting) and so I wouldn't feel that your
opinions are more valid than mine. I do value your input, however, and
I thank you for sharing. I would certainly be much more receptive to
your position if these companies refused to sale direct to the public
under any circumstances for DIY installs (refused any warranty, require
documentation of who did the install, require installers to be
certified and so on). As that is not the case for any brand that I'm
aware of, I simply don't feel that a discussion about whether or not
installs will be done well should be part of a more specific discussion
about what is really market manipulation on the part of manufacturers.

Matt,

I certainly am not going to argue that DIY installs are good for any
business. Garage door manufacturers would prefer that their products
be installed by pros, and companies that make rod bearings would rather
that only ASE techs installed them. My point, which I'll continue to
stand by until someone shows me different, is that the manufacturers'
documentation doesn't pan this (...lack of expertise) out as a reason
for not allowing online sells. This is a very odd situation, to me, of
the public which is adversely affected by decisions by manufacturers to
limit competition and so keep prices up by artificial means but who
choose to make excuses for the manufacturers even against the very
policies of the same. It really blows my mind.

As for your guy who charges more for DIY installs, I'd be interested in
looking at his site to see exactly how he pulls that off. Are you sure
we're not simply talking about the difference between jobber pricing
and retail pricing (which has much more to do with the level of
business done with a certain customer than the level of expertise of
the customer)?

MOSFET wrote:
Actually, there's a standing discussion of a very similar issue over in
alt.security.alarms - DIYers are the bane of that industry as well, as a
poor install can make all the difference in whether an alarm/security
system works properly or not... and a security system that doesn't work
properly is about as useful as a condom full of holes.

Many retailers simply don't sell to DIYers for just that reason. Those
that do have a LOT of fine print to cover their asses against problems
arising from poorly-installed DIY systems. And one guy charges
significantly higher prices for his DIY sales, but also notes very plainly
on his website that this extra cost also includes extensive phone/email
support, and the higher prices are there specifically to make this worth
his time, because as he pointed out in one thread, he's too often had
sales cost him more in support time than he made in profit on the sale.


That's interesting. I hadn't even considered the issue of installing car
alarms, but when I think about it, today's sophisticated car alarms are EVEN
MORE DIFFICULT to install than a typical multi-amp car stereo.

Actually, a.s.a is concerned primarily with home/commercial security
systems, including alarms and video/CCTV systems.

There are about a billion things that can go wrong and it takes an INTIMATE
knowledge of your car's electrical system,

Not so much, until you start getting into fancy stuff like powerlock
interfaces, auto-window-rollups, etc. Connect to constant and ignition
power, tie into your dome light, hook up the siren, and your basic alarm
system is done. Gets a little trickier tying into the parking lights
and adding an ignition kill, but even those aren't THAT difficult.

The ONLY subtle difference I see, however, between alarms and audio is that
it seems to me that amps and subwoofers are MUCH more susceptible to damage
due to incompetent installations than alarms. With alarms, it seems
(generally speaking) the worst thing that happens is that the alarm doesn't
work or doesn't work correctly. With audio systems (and in particular
subwoofers and amplifiers), there are MANY ways these components can be
hooked up incorrectly that will cause damage (in particular, too low an
impedance load is A SUPER COMMON MISTAKE and very often will destroy an
amp). And I suppose the other subtle difference is that due to the
complexity of alarm systems, "tech-support" is needed much more for the DIY
alarm installer.

When you get into "non-mobile" security systems, you can be looking at
potential losses into tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions of
dollars, if a system doesn't work. Most also tie into various fire-,
gas-, or flood-detector sensors, or other systems to signal the proper
authorities, so it can also become a life-or-death issue. Thus proper
operation becomes of critical importance.

Standard magnetic door and window switches are usually relatively
straightforward, although I've seen and heard of some pretty stupid
wiring gaffes, like running all the wiring unshielded on the OUTSIDE of
the building. Motion sensors aren't difficult per se, but improper
location or positioning can render them useless.

Car alarms are also usually set up so they can be wired up and just WORK
with no further programming. Almost every land-based alarm system will
require at least SOME programming on activation, to properly set
entry-delayed zones, always-armed zones, etc., programming for
monitoring dialup, setting individual activation codes (and changing the
default Master and Installer codes - you'd be surprised how often this
DOESN'T happen), and so on.


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I've installed more alarms then I care to count and to be honest it's not the
alarms that I find difficult to install, it's the different cars that bring
the difficulty levels to a new high.

I just did an alarm/starter/entry on a 97 ford crown vic. Like most fords it
has reverse polarity door locks and all it takes is a minor switch of the lock
and unlock wires on the wrong ends of the car door lock wires and kaboom. This
car also has a lighting computer ($450) that controls all of the lights, there
are no door pins on this car any the only way to hookup door triggers is to
tap into the lighting computer.

Hooking up the parking light wire to the headlight switch (like on most cars)
on this car is sure death for the lighting computer as the headlight switch
only uses low voltage that goes to the lighting computer and then the computer
feeds the lights.

As for the "car starter" there is no tach output, not even on the ecm and
without a tach wire the "car starter" has no way of knowing if the car started
first try or not. But skilled as I am, I used the oil pressure sensing.

I won't even get into the nastiness of cars that have transponder ignitions.

Car alarm installs can turn ugly even for a pro, never mind a noob and the
internet is full of ill information when it comes to car alarm installs such
as this crown vic.






In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:



That's interesting. I hadn't even considered the issue of installing car
alarms, but when I think about it, today's sophisticated car alarms are EVEN
MORE DIFFICULT to install than a typical multi-amp car stereo. There are
about a billion things that can go wrong and it takes an INTIMATE knowledge
of your car's electrical system, something 99.9% of consumers DO NOT HAVE.
As comfortable as I am installing audio systems (I have installed DOZENS
over the years), I would not even try to install a sophisticated car alarm
system (with all the bells and whistles) without SOME kind of training
first.

The ONLY subtle difference I see, however, between alarms and audio is that
it seems to me that amps and subwoofers are MUCH more susceptible to damage
due to incompetent installations than alarms. With alarms, it seems
(generally speaking) the worst thing that happens is that the alarm doesn't
work or doesn't work correctly. With audio systems (and in particular
subwoofers and amplifiers), there are MANY ways these components can be
hooked up incorrectly that will cause damage (in particular, too low an
impedance load is A SUPER COMMON MISTAKE and very often will destroy an
amp). And I suppose the other subtle difference is that due to the
complexity of alarm systems, "tech-support" is needed much more for the DIY
alarm installer.

But yes, overall, these are VERY similar issues for retailers, manufacturers
and consumers.

MOSFET

Matt, I respect your view of all this, but on this point: "If anyone is
"adversely affected" in this kind of instance, it can really only be
the manufacturer, who's limiting their sales scope. Nobody's life if
really going to suffer that much because they can't buy a certain brand
of stereo gear.", I must point out that while the individual consumer
isn't affected (assuming that they'll buy the next-best good or, more
likely, find the good they want somewhere else), I am affected. I make
my living by providing consumers that which they wish to buy. If
enough manufacturers followed the lead of companies like Exile, then
entry into the market is essentially blocked. From my point of view,
this is an extremely important issue that goes way beyond my simply
dissagreeing with a marketing tactic used by some manufacturers.


Matt Ion wrote:
Pious Audio wrote:
Matt,

I certainly am not going to argue that DIY installs are good for any
business. Garage door manufacturers would prefer that their products
be installed by pros, and companies that make rod bearings would rather
that only ASE techs installed them. My point, which I'll continue to
stand by until someone shows me different, is that the manufacturers'
documentation doesn't pan this (...lack of expertise) out as a reason
for not allowing online sells. This is a very odd situation, to me, of
the public which is adversely affected by decisions by manufacturers to
limit competition and so keep prices up by artificial means but who
choose to make excuses for the manufacturers even against the very
policies of the same. It really blows my mind.

If anyone is "adversely affected" in this kind of instance, it can
really only be the manufacturer, who's limiting their sales scope.
Nobody's life if really going to suffer that much because they can't buy
a certain brand of stereo gear. This obviously is not the norm amongst
car audio manufacturers, and as such really does NOT affect the overall
market price. And again, we're not talking a basic necessity of life
anyway.

If they want to play snooty, that's their prerogative. Maybe they feel
it enhances their reputation in the industry, to be extra-expensive and
of only very limited availablility - that's certainly been true of
various other home-electronics manufacturers for many decades, and it
hasn't damaged that industry.

As for your guy who charges more for DIY installs, I'd be interested in
looking at his site to see exactly how he pulls that off. Are you sure
we're not simply talking about the difference between jobber pricing
and retail pricing (which has much more to do with the level of
business done with a certain customer than the level of expertise of
the customer)?

I don't know how he differentiates. I suppose one could look at it as
jobber vs. retail pricing. The main point is, his "retail" or "DIY"
price is admittedly significantly higher than other online sources to
make up for the spate of support calls experience has shown him he can
expect from DIY installs, and he makes no bones about this in his
advertising. His main pitch is that that support WILL be there. Other
companies sell separate support contracts. Nothing right or wrong about
either, they're just different business models.




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Matt, I respect your view of all this, but on this point: "If anyone is
"adversely affected" in this kind of instance, it can really only be
the manufacturer, who's limiting their sales scope. Nobody's life if
really going to suffer that much because they can't buy a certain brand
of stereo gear.", I must point out that while the individual consumer
isn't affected (assuming that they'll buy the next-best good or, more
likely, find the good they want somewhere else), I am affected. I make
my living by providing consumers that which they wish to buy. If
enough manufacturers followed the lead of companies like Exile, then
entry into the market is essentially blocked. From my point of view,
this is an extremely important issue that goes way beyond my simply
dissagreeing with a marketing tactic used by some manufacturers.

Wait a sec, let me get this straight, you're mad because a certain brand
won't let you sell their stuff? I don't mean to be flippant, but do you
know ANYTHING about marketing?

A product's distribution strategy is a KEY factor in how the product is
positioned in the marketplace. This is why Rolex doesn't sell watches at
Wal-Mart. Could Rolex sell some watches at Wal-Mart, of course! What I
keep hearing in all your posts is that, according to you, this means THEY
SHOULD sell their watches there (you claim it is unfair that these poor
Wal-Mart shoppers who WANT to buy a Rolex there, BUT THEY CAN'T!). I
STRONGLY suggest you take a basic marketing course at your nearest community
college. I REALLY don't mean to sound rude, but there seems to be a serious
disconnect in your understanding of some basic strategies involving brand
imaging, niche marketing, and distribution.

MOSFET

So what IS Exile's policy then? Sales only through selected dealers? If
so, why not become one yourself?

Exactly, I was thinking this myself. If you want Exile so bad, find out
what their distribution guidelines are and then FOLLOW THEM (I'm sure it
starts with renting some retail space).

MOSFET

YOU DO HAVE AN MBA? In accounting, huh? Well, that explains a lot (mine's
marketing, and I was a college professor of marketing at the University of
Portland). You must have forgotten much about what you learned in those
marketing courses.

MOSFET

"Pious Audio" wrote in message
oups.com...
I, too, have an MBA (Accounting) and so I wouldn't feel that your
opinions are more valid than mine. I do value your input, however, and
I thank you for sharing. I would certainly be much more receptive to
your position if these companies refused to sale direct to the public
under any circumstances for DIY installs (refused any warranty, require
documentation of who did the install, require installers to be
certified and so on). As that is not the case for any brand that I'm
aware of, I simply don't feel that a discussion about whether or not
installs will be done well should be part of a more specific discussion
about what is really market manipulation on the part of manufacturers.

BTW, I have forgotten EVERYTHING I learned in accounting. I know there are
debits and credits.....and I know a balance sheet MUST balance. That's
about as far as my accounting knowlege goes.

MOSFET

This has become quite personal. Mosfet, I'm sorry that you think that
the fact that we dissagree means that you somehow have a more nuanced
and informed opinion of the market and of business than I do. Pious
Audio is the fourth business I've started, the previous three have been
successful and allow me and my family to live in relative comfort.
Surely you have some insights into business that I don't, but I've
created my own paycheck for long enough to feel very confident in my
ability to comprehend simple business concepts. Your corporate
background gives you a particular view of how things work -- it's not
invalid, but it certainly isn't the complete picture.

Obviously, my purpose in starting this thread was so that those who
agreed with me could make their feelings known to the manufacturer (the
consumer is, after all, has the final word on all of this). Matt,
Francious and you are behind the manufacturers right to control the
market, I get that. I respectfully dissagree, and I'll leave it at
that.

"Pious. Matt,
Francious and you are behind the manufacturers right to control the
market, I get that.

I'm sorry, but a statement like this only demonstrates your apparent lack of
understanding regarding this. THE MARKET CONTROLS ITSELF, PURE AND SIMPLE
(if Exile chooses a poor distribution strategy they will go TU eventually).
This is the basis of a free-market economy, again these are concepts you
time and time again seem to be failing to grasp.

I have NO DOUBT that you are a successful business man, and MORE POWER TO
YOU, I TRULY wish you the best. And I didn't mean for this to sound like a
personal attack, sorry if it did, I honestly enjoy debating in this manner
with intelligent people. But, again, you are failing to grasp the
importance of distribution in the overall marketing strategy of a brand.
Sometimes, exclusivity is EXACTLY what makes a product desirable. You seem
to think it makes sense for every product to be available everywhere. From
a marketing standpoint, this is ridiculous and I was only half-joking about
taking a marketing class. Perhaps you should dig up some of your old
marketing text books (if you still have them) and study the four P's (price,
product, promotion, place).

I understand that you think this is a poor strategy for Exile to follow. I
don't know enough about Exile to either agree or disagree with you.
However, what I DO KNOW is that IT IS A STRATEGY. And it is THE MARKET the
determines the success or failure of such a strategy.

MOSFET

It occurs to me that the name of his venture is quite well-chosen...

LOL

SO TRUE!

Mosfet, I really can't believe you cannot comprehend the strategy,
here. I mean, you're an intelligent guy who can add things up. Here,
I'll package it up for you.

1) I've had two customers in less than a week ask me about a certain
brand...I don't have access to it, and I want access.

2) The manufacturer has a right to pick-and-choose it's retailers, but
in the end the manufacturer must satisfy the market's demands.

3) I take my case to the market. If the market agrees with me, then
the manufacturer is pressured into allowing me to provide my customers
with that which they desire.

It's all that simple. I do question the viability of a marketing plan
that sells low-to-mid level components as if they were top shelf with
all of this exlusive bull****. I've taken my case to the people -- in
the end, when consumers search for Exile Car Audio on Google, they will
come up with my posts about the brand and it's business policies. If I
am right, that most consumers don't appreciate the manufacturer working
against them, then Exile may feel the pressure.

I'm not dense, I understand the idea of controlling your marketing and
brand identity. I hope you can step back and see the idea of one
business not letting itself be controlled by the decisions of another.
I think the parochial term is "playing hard ball". I also understand,
and you should have seen this: Exile is a target of convenience. They
are small and relatively unknown, as am I. Had I started this
discussion referencing a better known brand, this discussion certainly
wouldn't have went on for this long. As it stands, I've engaged a
number of people in this conversation, and garnered response directly
from Elite, larger and more well-known companies would not have engaged
me.

"If you want Exile so bad, find out
what their distribution guidelines are and then FOLLOW THEM (I'm sure
it
starts with renting some retail space)."

That is your corporate showing. I'm an entrepreneur, I can't simply
fold against adversity or I'd fail. I don't like Exile's guidelines,
so I work to change them. This cannot be that hard to understand.

1) I've had two customers in less than a week ask me about a certain
brand...I don't have access to it, and I want access.

There are two customers who go to Walmart who want a Rolex. Walmart cannot
sell them one, yet Walmart would LOVE to sell them (think of the PROFIT).
According to you, this is terribly unfair. According to you, Rolex is
screwing the public somehow.

2) The manufacturer has a right to pick-and-choose it's retailers, but
in the end the manufacturer must satisfy the market's demands.

According to you, Rolex is doing a TERRIBLE job satisfying the needs of it's
customers as they are not sold in the LARGEST RETAILER IN THE LARGEST
ECONOMY IN THE WORLD!!!! How stupid is that?

3) I take my case to the market. If the market agrees with me, then
the manufacturer is pressured into allowing me to provide my customers
with that which they desire.

Well, you're are right about this one. The market WILL decide EVERYTHING.
If enough people hound Rolex to start selling their watches at Walmart, it
is possible (though unlikely) they may start selling them there.

It's all that simple.

Yes, it is. And if you think my Rolex analogy doesn't fit, I would
disagree. Walmart DOES INDEED sell watches (just like the way you sell
amplifiers).

Again, if you feel Exile is making a terrible mistake, the market will
correct this (either Exile will change it's strategy or go out of business).
It is NOT the manufacturers who decide what works and what doesn't in the
marketplace, IT'S THE MARKETPLACE.

You seem to think that just because a customer desires a certain product,
they therefore have some GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BUY IT FROM YOU. But then
again, you are called "Pious Audio".

MOSFET

MOSFET wrote:
1) I've had two customers in less than a week ask me about a certain
brand...I don't have access to it, and I want access.


There are two customers who go to Walmart who want a Rolex. Walmart cannot
sell them one, yet Walmart would LOVE to sell them (think of the PROFIT).
According to you, this is terribly unfair. According to you, Rolex is
screwing the public somehow.

Well actually, he's claiming that Rolex is screwing Wal-Mart be denying
them the profit they'd make selling the watches.

But, that's business.

2) The manufacturer has a right to pick-and-choose it's retailers, but
in the end the manufacturer must satisfy the market's demands.


According to you, Rolex is doing a TERRIBLE job satisfying the needs of it's
customers as they are not sold in the LARGEST RETAILER IN THE LARGEST
ECONOMY IN THE WORLD!!!! How stupid is that?

The fact is, in your analogy, "the market" for Rolex is extremely
limited by the price. The kind of people who buy Rolexes are NOT the
kind of people who shop at Wal-Mart. They're the kind of people who OWN
Wal-Mart.

3) I take my case to the market. If the market agrees with me, then
the manufacturer is pressured into allowing me to provide my customers
with that which they desire.


Well, you're are right about this one. The market WILL decide EVERYTHING.
If enough people hound Rolex to start selling their watches at Walmart, it
is possible (though unlikely) they may start selling them there.

The other option is for the retailer to convince the market (or for the
market to realize on its own) that the item in question really isn't
worth the extra hassle and expense, that the inflated value is as a
status symbol only. While I doubt that's the case with Rolex watches
(are they REALLY all that good, or is a Rolex just "the thing" to have
when you've got more money than brains?), it could just as well be the
case with Exile's marketing model - be rare, be exclusive, be expensive,
and everyone will think you're hot **** and the "gotta have it" car
audio gear.

So instead of whining that they won't sell to him, Pious could just as
easily spend his time (and posts) pointing out why Exile AIN'T "all
that" and that their money would be better spent elsewhere.

Again, if you feel Exile is making a terrible mistake, the market will
correct this (either Exile will change it's strategy or go out of business).
It is NOT the manufacturers who decide what works and what doesn't in the
marketplace, IT'S THE MARKETPLACE.

You seem to think that just because a customer desires a certain product,
they therefore have some GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BUY IT FROM YOU. But then
again, you are called "Pious Audio".

And besides that, IT'S A ****ING CAR STEREO AMPLIFIER. IT'S NOT LIFE
AND DEATH! GET A GRIP!


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Mosfet: The Rolex analogy is not apt. As Matt pointed out, the
consumers who shop at Wal Mart couldn't afford Rolex even if it were
available to them. Wal Mart has, however, opened test stores that sell
bottles of wine for up to $1500.00, and other high-end merchandise, in
the Dallas area (I think it's Dallas), so who knows? Wouldn't it be
ironic if our next Rolex came from Wal Mart, after all of this?

Matt, you miss the point entirely and don't even seem to be talking
about the same thing I am. First, I can't just sit around and attack
the Elite brand, because it would be both slanderous (I'd probably get
sued), and unethical in my view. I don't know what kind of company you
own, but if you care no more for your customers than to simply say "I
can't get that, go somewhere else or choose from what I've got", then I
don't want to buy any stock when your company goes public.

I'm sure both of you are very impressed by the old adage often
attributed to Henry Ford, "our customer's can have any color they want,
as long as it's black." That is a very macho position, real great.
However, I've built successful companies by giving every customer
exactly what they want whenever humanly possible. I'll stop as soon as
I stop being successful.

In article .com,
"Pious Audio" wrote:

Mosfet: The Rolex analogy is not apt. As Matt pointed out, the
consumers who shop at Wal Mart couldn't afford Rolex even if it were
available to them. Wal Mart has, however, opened test stores that sell
bottles of wine for up to $1500.00, and other high-end merchandise, in
the Dallas area (I think it's Dallas), so who knows? Wouldn't it be
ironic if our next Rolex came from Wal Mart, after all of this?

Matt, you miss the point entirely and don't even seem to be talking
about the same thing I am. First, I can't just sit around and attack
the Elite brand, because it would be both slanderous (I'd probably get
sued), and unethical in my view. I don't know what kind of company you
own, but if you care no more for your customers than to simply say "I
can't get that, go somewhere else or choose from what I've got", then I
don't want to buy any stock when your company goes public.

I'm sure both of you are very impressed by the old adage often
attributed to Henry Ford, "our customer's can have any color they want,
as long as it's black." That is a very macho position, real great.
However, I've built successful companies by giving every customer
exactly what they want whenever humanly possible. I'll stop as soon as
I stop being successful.


This reminds me of those ebay auctions that go outrageously high for no
apparent reason.

Is this 'Exile' brand worth this much bickering? A quick google search
turned up a forum reference to their 'subss and amps'. Ahh, reading more
into it the site is mentioned.. and the stuff reminds of more show than
go. With drivers like the 'XTEC' slim line 10" which is a direct ripoff
of about 3 other companies' 10" slimline driver.. except with the raised
X in the dust cap.

It would be interesting to hear the stuff, if it wasn't so hard to get
ahold of.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

However, I've built successful companies by giving every customer
exactly what they want whenever humanly possible. I'll stop as soon as
I stop being successful.

However you do not make the products you sell. That is the crux of the
issue here. I really think this whole thing boils down to the concept you
have that as a retailer you feel you should be able to buy from any
manufacturer, and that once you have bought it for your inventory, it is
none of their business who you sell it to or how you market it.

In the real world, that is simply not the case. Manufacturers can (and ARE)
selective about who distributes their products AND how retailers promote,
display (go to any grocery store to see this in action), and price their
products. You keep telling us how successful you are (and I have NO REASON
to doubt this), but YET AGAIN you seem not to be able to grasp these VERY
basic marketing concepts.

MOSFET