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#1
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Those new Bose PA speakers
OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer, percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases, though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me. Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things going on here that make the system work: - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids) - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of? Info is appreciated... thanks! -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside." See http://www.particlesalad.com for more info. |
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#2
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In article ,
"Particle Salad" wrote: OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer, percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases, though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me. Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things going on here that make the system work: - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids) - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of? Info is appreciated... thanks! I had to salvage a show that the musos could not get the things working right I would say what I feel but I really don't have the energy or time for another go round about these POS speakers ok for a solo act absoulte train wreck for a band they really don't do anything or sound any better than you average mackie 808 and peavey speakers on a stick IMO George but they sure do cost alot more George |
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#3
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad"
wrote: OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix, and having to play in a musical balance? Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of speakers pointing at he band. No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for). If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well. Sometimes I don't have to. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#4
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#5
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CORRECTION:
ASIDE...for those who haven;t come across these things, it's basically a 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array built into a 4" metal casing that breaks into two 1/2-pole sections for transport andlocks into a heavy 3' disc-shaped floor-base that contains all the electronics. In use they look EXACTLY like an iron-base-&-pipe lighting pole. Alone it does voice/ag stuff well with a designed rolloff below 90hz or so. Plug in the add-on subwoofer (or ANY subwoofer... I used a RAMSA 240), and -another- amp already in the base kicks in to drive it and changes the lo-end rolloff of the column to match. With the woof the system is really very impressive. .... 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts CORRECTION: I may be in error here... I think it might have a 250w amp for --each 1/2 of the pole-- I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base: 2 for the pole and one for the woof |
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#6
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JoVee wrote:
it's basically a 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array ... 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts CORRECTION: I may be in error here... I think it might have a 250w amp for --each 1/2 of the pole-- I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base: 2 for the pole and one for the woof Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw... |
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#7
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Particle Salad wrote:
OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Basically, this is the result of having very wide horizontal dispersion. Wide dispersion means lots of leakage on stage and therefore no need for monitors with small acoustic acts. The fact that it doesn't sound like it's coming through a telephone is the side effect of eliminating the horn since you no longer are trying to control high end dispersion. I think the whole line array thing here is mostly a gimmick; I don't think the vertical directivity control resulting from the line array is really all that great. What is great is the fact that it has extensive active notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback problems that result from the high leakage. The microphone modelling stuff in there is also mostly a useless gimmick that does more harm than good. But the overall concept of using wide dispersion speakers without horns and DSP feedback reduction is not a bad one for small groups where high levels aren't really needed. The idea falls apart completely once you are in a very live club with high audience noise levels because you really don't have great gain before feedback, but when it can work, it can work well. Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things going on here that make the system work: - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids) - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary These are easy. And you'll note that there is no horn on the top end, so the top end rolls off very smoothly with no narrow peaks. That actually is a help both for natural sound and reduced feedback. The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal. - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of? Sure. I used to do a small dance band with a pair of AR-3Xes. Plenty of spill-over so everyone could hear the singer. Worked just fine because it wasn't very loud and it didn't have to be. Info is appreciated... thanks! I think Bose has just realized that there is a small niche market of acoustic performers who aren't really served by the typical PA gear they find in their local MI store. I don't think they have anything too innovative going on here, and I think a pair of AR-3Xes, a powered mixer and a notch filter might do the same thing. But they have it all in one package. If you compare the Bose system with a good pair of non-horn-loaded box speakers, you'll find they sound very distant in comparison, with a very recessed upper midrange. I think that's a disadvantage in the application too. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#8
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
What is great is the fact that it has extensive active notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback problems that result from the high leakage. Oh really? |
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#9
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No Spam wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: What is great is the fact that it has extensive active notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback problems that result from the high leakage. Oh really? According to the marketing glossies, yeah. They do some handwaving about magical anti-feedback algorithms. Dunno how they compare to a skilled operator with a Little Dipper, but the point of the system is that it's not supposed to need a skilled operator. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#10
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal. Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases horizontal dispersion? (As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.) For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. Peace, Paul |
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#11
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal. Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases horizontal dispersion? (As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.) For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. Peace, Paul |
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#12
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Paul Stamler wrote: For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk. |
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#13
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Paul Stamler wrote: For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk. |
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#14
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"Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. |
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#15
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"Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. |
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#16
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Pete Dimsman wrote:
Paul Stamler wrote: For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk. The real question regards the efficiency (of those 2¼" cones combined with their respective amplifiers) at translating AC Watts into SPL in the back third of the audience area. |
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#17
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Pete Dimsman wrote:
Paul Stamler wrote: For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk. The real question regards the efficiency (of those 2¼" cones combined with their respective amplifiers) at translating AC Watts into SPL in the back third of the audience area. |
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#18
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Paul Stamler wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal. Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases horizontal dispersion? Sorry. I means increasing vertical directionality. Oops. (As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.) For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. For a larger band the whole idea doesn't work. But for a solo act it is indeed nice. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#19
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Paul Stamler wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal. Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases horizontal dispersion? Sorry. I means increasing vertical directionality. Oops. (As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.) For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are. For a larger band the whole idea doesn't work. But for a solo act it is indeed nice. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#20
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In article , Sugarite not for you wrote:
I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. You aren't really Sugarite, are you? The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. That's true, and a huge amount of really impressive engineering expertise goes into their speakers. Unfortunately it goes into making them profitable rather than making them sound good. This is a good thing if you are a stockholder but a bad thing if you are a customer. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#21
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In article , Sugarite not for you wrote:
I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. You aren't really Sugarite, are you? The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. That's true, and a huge amount of really impressive engineering expertise goes into their speakers. Unfortunately it goes into making them profitable rather than making them sound good. This is a good thing if you are a stockholder but a bad thing if you are a customer. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#22
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Damned things are expensive, though. At least, that's my thought.
-- ----------- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer, percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases, though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me. Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things going on here that make the system work: - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids) - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of? Info is appreciated... thanks! -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside." See http://www.particlesalad.com for more info. |
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#23
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Damned things are expensive, though. At least, that's my thought.
-- ----------- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer, percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases, though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me. Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things going on here that make the system work: - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids) - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of? Info is appreciated... thanks! -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside." See http://www.particlesalad.com for more info. |
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#24
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We went around the bush a number of times on AAPLS about these things, so I
know what George means about not doing that again. No matter how one wants to look at it, and I know that JoVee has been pretty impressed with them, but the fact is that Bose simply uses technologies like line arrays with the cheapest little pieces of crap speakers they could jam into a box. It may work, but if it does, and I believe JoVee, then at least they could put some dynamite drivers in them to make it worth the exhobitant price they put on the things. After all, they didn't develop anything new, just smaller. Bose's ROI must be tremendous. -- ----------- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad" wrote: OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix, and having to play in a musical balance? Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of speakers pointing at he band. No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for). If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well. Sometimes I don't have to. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#25
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We went around the bush a number of times on AAPLS about these things, so I
know what George means about not doing that again. No matter how one wants to look at it, and I know that JoVee has been pretty impressed with them, but the fact is that Bose simply uses technologies like line arrays with the cheapest little pieces of crap speakers they could jam into a box. It may work, but if it does, and I believe JoVee, then at least they could put some dynamite drivers in them to make it worth the exhobitant price they put on the things. After all, they didn't develop anything new, just smaller. Bose's ROI must be tremendous. -- ----------- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad" wrote: OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix, and having to play in a musical balance? Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of speakers pointing at he band. No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for). If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well. Sometimes I don't have to. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#26
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Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
-- ----------- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Sugarite" not for you wrote in message ... "Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. |
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#27
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Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
-- ----------- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Sugarite" not for you wrote in message ... "Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. |
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#28
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In article ,
"Roger W. Norman" wrote: Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really. How about Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you 65.00 usa each for them. |
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#29
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In article ,
"Roger W. Norman" wrote: Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really. How about Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you 65.00 usa each for them. |
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#30
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"Sugarite" not for you wrote in message ...
"Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their ability to hype their products. Rupert |
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#31
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"Sugarite" not for you wrote in message ...
"Particle Salad" wrote in message m... OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. I'm not surprised. Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the best speakers on the market, at any price point. The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined. Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their ability to hype their products. Rupert |
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#32
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"George" wrote in message ... In article , "Roger W. Norman" wrote: Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really. How about Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you 65.00 usa each for them. That's typical, but not limited to Bose. |
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#33
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"George" wrote in message ... In article , "Roger W. Norman" wrote: Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really. How about Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you 65.00 usa each for them. That's typical, but not limited to Bose. |
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#34
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You're like, evoking evil spirits, man... :-) I'm gonna have to light a candle and burn some incense now to clear the bad mojo on this newsgroup! :-P I gotta question for ya: How did they get enough gain before feedback occurred for sufficient vocal levels, to balance out with a drumset for example? Where I work we have literally hundreds of sound reinforced rooms and auditoriums, and there's a guy who tried to apply what he learned from designing his own home theater sound system to a few larger and much livelier acoustic spaces and his sound systems -totally flopped- e.g. not enough gain before feedback, very poor intelligibility, relatively narrow spectral response and so on. He was using Bose. To the typical user or audience, all they know is that it's hard to understand what the heck the guy with the mic is saying. To trained ear it sounds like... well, Bose. :-P Many Bose systems are designed to be omnidirectional, which makes it difficult to get much gain before feedback. Close talking a typical cardoid mic or using headset boom mics can help when using speakers like that, along with an absorptive acoustic environment, but under similar circumstances, the more directional speaker systems will work better, serving to direct acoustic energy where one wants it, the audience' ears, and not mostly reflecting all over the room and -then- to the audience' ears Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before feedback issue... I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost. Skearler OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so. It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well, had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could control their own individual volume very well and mix together. |
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#35
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Cerion wrote:
.... Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before feedback issue... What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with better drivers? I know a guy who is really sold on these because the demo he saw impressed him both with the overall performance of the system and especially with the physical size and weight, since he has back problems. He travels with his wife and performs Southern Gospel in various venues, mainly small to medium size churches (100-400 seat). He prerecorded his own rhythm tracks and plays various lead instruments along with them live. I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bose SR products. How do you think these speakers compare with, say, those little Community CPL series speakers (adding a sub, if necessary). |
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#36
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Greg Taylor wrote:
Cerion wrote: Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with better drivers? The DSP used for line arrays is quite specific to the drivers used. Also, I doin't know where you would find 2-1/8" replacement options. I'll venture to say that Bose knows as much about little cones like that as anyone. |
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#37
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Cerion wrote:
I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost. Depends entirely on the SOS chosen. Personally, I hate the midrange on most 15" 2-ways and that is one area where conventional physics does support the Bose architecture. A good pair of 10" or 12" SOS's properly driven, with subwoofer(s) if needed, is more to my taste. |
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#38
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
Greg Taylor wrote: Cerion wrote: Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with better drivers? The DSP used for line arrays is quite specific to the drivers used. Agreed. Also, I doin't know where you would find 2-1/8" replacement options. Agreed. I'll venture to say that Bose knows as much about little cones like that as anyone. I think they are related to the 2.5" drivers in the Bose cubes. Bottom line, its darn hard to move a decent amount of air with drivers this size, even if there are lots of them. All things being equal both diaphragm area and linear displacement go down with diameter. A double whammy, as it were. |
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#39
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Cerion wrote:
How did they get enough gain before feedback occurred for sufficient vocal levels, to balance out with a drumset for example? They don't. They aren't designed for that. They are intended for small and quiet acoustic acts and not to compete with anything huge. I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost. The nice thing about the Bose things is that they don't sound like horns. Also, they have everything all in one box so the skill required to operate it is minimal. Yes, they are phenomenally inflated in price, but that is what Bose does. But I think the idea is a good one, and I would like to see a company that actually cares about sound quality take the idea and do it right. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#40
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Greg Taylor wrote:
Cerion wrote: ... Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before feedback issue... What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with better drivers? They'd then have to change the firmware inside the DSP processor, since there is stuff in there that compensates for the driver characteristics. I know a guy who is really sold on these because the demo he saw impressed him both with the overall performance of the system and especially with the physical size and weight, since he has back problems. He travels with his wife and performs Southern Gospel in various venues, mainly small to medium size churches (100-400 seat). He prerecorded his own rhythm tracks and plays various lead instruments along with them live. That's basically the sort of thing that it's designed for. But quite frankly, it weighs a ton. It looks like it shouldn't weigh all the much but try picking it up and you may be surprised. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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