[William Sommerwerck]

I've been seriously listening to music for almost 45 years.

Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a handful of recordings.
At the end of a song or movement, there would be brief pitch shift. The
final tone would rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to the
point of "warbling".

I'm not the only person who's heard this. In rec.music.classical.recordings,
one guy claimed it was the fault of his headphones, and wanted Sennheiser to
replace them!

I heard it just the other day on a new recording of Haydn arias (on BIS).
Even in analog days, I never thought it was flutter, * and with digital
recording, it's "impossible", anyway. Nor does it sound like incompetent
playing or singing.

This must (???) be a psychoacoustic effect. Does anyone /know/ anything
about it? (Please, no speculations.)

Thanks.

* There was a recording of -- I think -- Munch conducting "Rhapsodie
Espanol" with a moment of severe pitch fluctuation (to put it kindly). I'd
assumed the mastering engineer had accidentally bumped into the transport.
The CD version did not have this flaw.)

--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land

[Jay Ts]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
This must (???) be a psychoacoustic effect. Does anyone /know/ anything
about it?

If there is any way you can do it, please provide samples.
Maybe if you could clip off the end of a track and post it,
that would be allowable under "fair use" (?).

(Please, no speculations.)

That's wishful thinking, for sure!

Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php

[Ty Ford]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:21:47 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

I've been seriously listening to music for almost 45 years.

Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a handful of recordings.
At the end of a song or movement, there would be brief pitch shift. The
final tone would rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to the
point of "warbling".

I'm not the only person who's heard this. In rec.music.classical.recordings,
one guy claimed it was the fault of his headphones, and wanted Sennheiser to
replace them!

I heard it just the other day on a new recording of Haydn arias (on BIS).
Even in analog days, I never thought it was flutter, * and with digital
recording, it's "impossible", anyway. Nor does it sound like incompetent
playing or singing.

This must (???) be a psychoacoustic effect. Does anyone /know/ anything
about it? (Please, no speculations.)

Thanks.

* There was a recording of -- I think -- Munch conducting "Rhapsodie
Espanol" with a moment of severe pitch fluctuation (to put it kindly). I'd
assumed the mastering engineer had accidentally bumped into the transport.
The CD version did not have this flaw.)



Was the music you were listening to loud?

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[William Sommerwerck]

Was the music you were listening to loud?

Ah... Pitch shift with volume, right?

I don't remember any of it being loud. And if that were the explanation, the
effect would occur on virtually recording played loud, would it not?

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
message

I've been seriously listening to music for almost 45
years.

Youngster, eh? ;-)

Ca. 45 years ago I left the retail stereo business after about 5 years of
serving customers.

Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a
handful of recordings. At the end of a song or movement,
there would be brief pitch shift. The final tone would
rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to
the point of "warbling".

I seem to remember having a few LPs that did this sort of thing, back in the
days of vinyl.

If memory serves, the pitch change was always to a higher pitch.

Once upon a time I had a tape player that would do this same thing if there
wasn't enough blank tape after the end of the last piece of music.

The tape would fall off the payout reel and the capstan would turn a little
faster due to being relieved of the drag of the payout reel.

Obviously, not the best tape machine in the world!

Since LPs were generally cut from tapes, it is at least conceivable that a
poorly-maintained tape machine in the cutting room could be the cause of
this.

[Mark]

Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a
handful of recordings. At the end of a song or movement,
there would be brief pitch shift. The final tone would
rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to
the point of "warbling".


there are a number of free SW based spectum analysis tools that will
allow you to MEASURE this if it is real....

Spectrum lab and GSNAP come to mind...

Mark

[Nono]

On 4 feb, 14:21, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
I've been seriously listening to music for almost 45 years.

Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a handful of recordings.
At the end of a song or movement, there would be brief pitch shift. The
final tone would rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to the
point of "warbling".

I'm not the only person who's heard this. In rec.music.classical.recordings,
one guy claimed it was the fault of his headphones, and wanted Sennheiser to
replace them!

I heard it just the other day on a new recording of Haydn arias (on BIS).
Even in analog days, I never thought it was flutter, * and with digital
recording, it's "impossible", anyway. Nor does it sound like incompetent
playing or singing.

This must (???) be a psychoacoustic effect. Does anyone /know/ anything
about it? (Please, no speculations.)

Thanks.

* There was a recording of -- I think -- Munch conducting "Rhapsodie
Espanol" with a moment of severe pitch fluctuation (to put it kindly). I'd
assumed the mastering engineer had accidentally bumped into the transport.
The CD version did not have this flaw.)

--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land

Now that you mention it; I have had that experience, but at the end of
a fade out of some recordings.
This was way back when I used to walk around all day long with a
walkman and headphones on my head though.
I had convinced myself that this was because a sound level drop, like
in a fade out, will suddenly let one hear the higher harmonics better
than the ground tone, giving the impression of a higher pitch.
Following this crazy theory of mine; could it be in the case you're
describing that the higher harmonics continue a little longer after
the ground tone has already died of, and so sounding like the pitch
has gone up?

I have also experienced the following:
Listening to music at very low level and then suddenly raising the
volume sometimes feels like the pitch drops, but also like the tempo
of the song drops.

Regards,
Norman.

[Moshe Goldfarb[_4_]]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:12:47 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
message

I've been seriously listening to music for almost 45
years.

Youngster, eh? ;-)

Ca. 45 years ago I left the retail stereo business after about 5 years of
serving customers.

I put myself through college selling high end stereo equipment and
playing the piano at night and on weekends.


Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a
handful of recordings. At the end of a song or movement,
there would be brief pitch shift. The final tone would
rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to
the point of "warbling".

I seem to remember having a few LPs that did this sort of thing, back in the
days of vinyl.

I remember this as well.
I always thought it was something to do with the lead out groove.


If memory serves, the pitch change was always to a higher pitch.

That is how I remember it.

Once upon a time I had a tape player that would do this same thing if there
wasn't enough blank tape after the end of the last piece of music.

The tape would fall off the payout reel and the capstan would turn a little
faster due to being relieved of the drag of the payout reel.

Obviously, not the best tape machine in the world!

Yep!!
My single capstan Tascam would do this and since I was usually
recording piano, it was quite noticeable.



Since LPs were generally cut from tapes, it is at least conceivable that a
poorly-maintained tape machine in the cutting room could be the cause of
this.

The main question would be, is it repeatable?
IOW does this happen every time he plays that particular piece?


--

2/4/2010 12:31:34 PM

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Was the music you were listening to loud?

Ah... Pitch shift with volume, right?

I don't remember any of it being loud. And if that were the explanation, the
effect would occur on virtually recording played loud, would it not?


Other way... the band is playing flat because the are playing so loudly
that they're hearing the note sharp.

If you played the recording back really loud, it should sound right.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

Since LPs were generally cut from tapes, it is at least
conceivable that a poorly-maintained tape machine in
the cutting room could be the cause of this.

Absolutely, but... If the machine were in such poor shape, you'd hear
problems throughout the movement. Besides, you hear the effect with digital
recordings, as well.

The particular recording which provoked this posting is

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/...r=61&genre=167

which shows the effect at the end of almost every aria.

[William Sommerwerck]

I like that explanation.

I do, too. but that doesn't mean it's right.

I listened again, and you can definitely hear a "warbling" on the last note.
It sounds distinctly "sour".

[Moshe Goldfarb[_4_]]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:30:23 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Since LPs were generally cut from tapes, it is at least
conceivable that a poorly-maintained tape machine in
the cutting room could be the cause of this.

Absolutely, but... If the machine were in such poor shape, you'd hear
problems throughout the movement. Besides, you hear the effect with digital
recordings, as well.

The particular recording which provoked this posting is

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/...r=61&genre=167

which shows the effect at the end of almost every aria.

Maybe someone is goosing the diva

--

2/4/2010 4:42:54 PM

[Les Cargill[_2_]]

Mark wrote:
Even in my salad days, I noticed something odd on a
handful of recordings. At the end of a song or movement,
there would be brief pitch shift. The final tone would
rise or fall, or even fluctuate in pitch, sometimes to
the point of "warbling".

there are a number of free SW based spectum analysis tools that will
allow you to MEASURE this if it is real....

Spectrum lab and GSNAP come to mind...

Mark

But it could be perceptible in as little as a couple Hz difference,
which might be tough on a spec. an.

--
Les Cargill

[Ty Ford]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:04:54 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

Was the music you were listening to loud?

Ah... Pitch shift with volume, right?

I don't remember any of it being loud. And if that were the explanation, the
effect would occur on virtually recording played loud, would it not?


Dunno for sure, Bill, but I have heard pitch changes as I take off headphones
and go from headphone to monitor listening and I know doppler wasn't the
reason.

I can only guess that at some SPL the ear drum may be pushed more out of
shape and when SPL lowers and the tension on the ear drum changes, maybe
pitch is affected.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA