[ChrisCoaster]

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. The only
way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums
on vinyl!

It's very simple to see: For Example - Rip your favorite classic rock
artist - Yes, Bob Seger, etc, as a WAV or MP3, and load that rip into
Audacity or ProTools. If you see squared off sections of that
waveform(where the loudest portions of the song seem to 'flatten out',
that means something has been done to it.

Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of
the works?

[Trevor]

"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.

Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!

Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.

[ChrisCoaster]

On Feb 15, 10:59*pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

...

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.

Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!

Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.
__________________
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?

JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! Utter stupidity.

Utter..

-CC

[Trevor]

"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like.


Can be compared to badly mastered CD's, but can NEVER match as close as is
possible with a properly mastered CD.
NO need to confuse technical issues with human error, that takes place
regardless.


That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?
JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! Utter stupidity.


No argument, but most here realised that was happening two decades ago! And
vinyl was not the answer to anything.

Trevor.

[hank alrich]

ChrisCoaster wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

...

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.

Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!

Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.
__________________
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like.

By that statement shall I assume you have heard the master tapes?

That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED.

Digital audio systems function in an analog realm, and regardless of the
theoretical dydnamic range of the digital system, practical limitations
of the analog realm hold dynamic range well below the theoretical
calculation.

And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?

People have jobs. Jobs come with bosses. Pay comes with satisfying the
bosses. For decades musicians, managers, and labels have wanted their
songs to be loud on the radio to catch and help hold the attention of
the listener(s). Radio station operators have wanted their station to be
as loud as possible, to achieve better signal delivery within their area
of coverage.

The engineers job is to satisfy the requirements of their
bosses/clients, and that's not you, in this case. So the place to take
up the battle is at the labels, and with the artists and their
management. That's who pays the engineers.

Furthemore, some engineers can make things sound amazingly loud and
startlingly good. Check out Cookie Marenco's work with Tony Furtado, for
example. Loud as all get out, and gorgeous at the same time.

JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! Utter stupidity.

See above and stop blaming the engineers for doing the job specified by
their bosses. Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return
that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is
cheap, while returned product is very expensive.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[ChrisCoaster]

On Feb 16, 1:07*am, (hank alrich) wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

....

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.

Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!

Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.
__________________
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like.

By that statement shall I assume you have heard the master tapes?

That's
what should be aimed for. *As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED.

Digital audio systems function in an analog realm, and regardless of the
theoretical dydnamic range of the digital system, practical limitations
of the analog realm hold dynamic range well below the theoretical
calculation.

And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?

People have jobs. Jobs come with bosses. Pay comes with satisfying the
bosses. For decades musicians, managers, and labels have wanted their
songs to be loud on the radio to catch and help hold the attention of
the listener(s). Radio station operators have wanted their station to be
as loud as possible, to achieve better signal delivery within their area
of coverage.

The engineers job is to satisfy the requirements of their
bosses/clients, and that's not you, in this case. So the place to take
up the battle is at the labels, and with the artists and their
management. That's who pays the engineers.

Furthemore, some engineers can make things sound amazingly loud and
startlingly good. Check out Cookie Marenco's work with Tony Furtado, for
example. Loud as all get out, and gorgeous at the same time.

JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! *Utter stupidity.

See above and stop blaming the engineers for doing the job specified by
their bosses. Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return
that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is
cheap, while returned product is very expensive.

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://www.you...ankandShaidri- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted t
_________________
Well stated. But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. Like you said
returns are not a good thing to a company. But we also have a voice.
And that voice can go up the chain until the right ears/eyes have
received it. But it is a complicated chain - which is the main topic
of this thread: who to stick it in the craw of that squeezing
*potentially* 90dB of dynamic range into 1-2 dB of sonic space IS NO
LONGER ACCEPTABLE and IS HARMFUL TO BOTH OUR EARS AND PLAYBACK
EQUIPMENT?

That is the question.

-CC

ps: caps locks are mockery of LOUDNESS WAR not yelling!

[Scott Dorsey]

ChrisCoaster wrote:
Well stated. But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. Like you said
returns are not a good thing to a company. But we also have a voice.

The problem is that for the most part, the consumer doesn't give a damn
about sound quality. When I started, the consumer was listening to
overdriven 45s with a cheap ceramic cartridge through an 8" full range
speaker. Now they are listening to squashed MP3 files on their ipod
through headphones they bought at the dollar store.

Point out to them that they could get uncompressed versions of the music
and they'll say it's too much trouble, and that they can get more songs
on their ipod this way.

And that voice can go up the chain until the right ears/eyes have
received it. But it is a complicated chain - which is the main topic
of this thread: who to stick it in the craw of that squeezing
*potentially* 90dB of dynamic range into 1-2 dB of sonic space IS NO
LONGER ACCEPTABLE and IS HARMFUL TO BOTH OUR EARS AND PLAYBACK
EQUIPMENT?

People who care about sound quality are very much a niche market.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return
that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is
cheap, while returned product is very expensive.

Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?

Trevor.

[Mike Rivers]

On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?

That's tough, just like returning software. But you can
simply stop buying CDs. You probably don't need a trial
listen to tell what you aren't going to like. When was the
last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name artist
that sounded good to your ears?

Just say no.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:

The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?

Well you have the part about bad sounding media being an
artistic/business/enginering issue and not any inherent problem with the
basic technology.

But did the majority of CDs sound worse than the corresponding LPs and
cassettes? Horsefeathers. Reality is that sometimes the analog sounded
better but mostly the digital sounded better.

All generalizations are false, and that applies very well those
generalizations that compare digital and analog media.

In the early 1980s when CDs first came out, at least 90% or more of the
reissues or new issues that came out were dramatically improved by being
released from the surly bonds of analog media technology. The other 10% (or
less) were screw-ups. One common problem was lack of access to the best
possible master tape. One particularly common problem was use of a cutting
master where a grand master should have been used. Of course you can't make
CDs from master tapes that were lost, destroyed or written over.

The analog media versions of my favorite artists whether pop, rock or
classical were so generally bad in comparison that my Thorens turntable and
Revox tape recorder were liquidated to buy more CDs.

IME starting with the early 90s, the odds of getting a good digital transfer
started dropping. My kids who were then teenagers were the victims. For
example, while my early 80s digital transfers of whole albums by say Simon
and Garfunkel were great, my kids were having "Best of" compendiums foisted
off on them that were overcompressed crap.

[Jeff Henig]

"Arny Krueger" wrote:


All generalizations are false,

In general, anyway... (;^)

--
---Jeff

[geoff]

Jeff Henig wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


All generalizations are false,

In general, anyway... (;^)

And 87.3% of all statistics are simply made up on the spot.

geoff

[ChrisCoaster]

On Feb 16, 9:00*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:

The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. *That's
what should be aimed for. *As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. *And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?

Well you have the part about bad sounding media being an
artistic/business/enginering issue and not any inherent problem with the
basic technology.

But did the majority of CDs sound worse than the corresponding LPs and
cassettes? Horsefeathers. Reality is that sometimes the analog sounded
better but mostly the digital sounded better.

All generalizations are false, and that applies very well those
generalizations that compare digital and analog media.
_____________________
I didn't intend to generalize, except with regards to most "Greatest
Hits" and "Remastereds" I've heard - and ANALYZED via Pro Tools or
Audacity.

And when I found out that even some "original" CDs - of the original
albums themselves, had the bloated and/or brickwalled waveform
appearance to their tracks - I knew something was wrong.

So I don't want this degenerating into a debate over CD vs LP(heaven
knows there's enough heated threads about that debate out there
already!!).

I'm just trying to bang a pot, before its too late, that some really
great works out there may never be heard in all their glory after
enough decades have passed. And to me, an unaltered non-remastered
"Bohemian Rhapsody"(Queen) or the aforementioned "Someone Saved My
Life Tonight"(Sir Elton John) sound great no matter what sized
speakers I play them on - because they were engineered/mastered
properly!

As an aside, I'm hearing a lot of people saying how much more details
they can hear on the 2009 Beatles Boxed Sets, particularly on the
Stereo version. Hmmm. I wonder why! I'll pass - my 1980s
era releases are just fine.

-CC

[Steve King]

"Trevor" wrote in message
...

"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.

Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!

Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and
otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter,
FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original
master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN
be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of
course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.

I don't think that's right. Or, at least IMO, it is exaggerated. In my
second studio engineering job in 1966 I spent my first year mostly in the
laquer channel, as we called it then. For the first few months using a
Scully lathe, a Neumann monaural cutting head, driven by a custom amplifier
(tubes), fed from a chain with a modified Ampex 300 deck, a Fairchild 660
limiter, and a Conax high frequency limiter. Later, we switched to a
Westrex stereo cutting head, driven by a Westrex amplifier, Firchild 670,
and dual Conax. We also had a range of patchable EQ, mostly Pultec and
Cinema Engineering. We had one approach to mastering if we were cutting a
master for a 45 rpm single for airplay, another for the same song for the
release version, and a completely different approach for cutting a reference
acetate for the producer to take home for evaluation of the mix. For the
latter we used practically no limiting, minimal EQ or none. Getting level
on the disk was not an issue, just the opposite of what we did for airplay
(DJ Pressings), where noise and the restricted frequency response of AM
radio was an issue. The reference acetates didn't have to have a lot of
level to overcome noise, because the reference disc was only expected to be
played a few times. Those discs sounded great. Much closer to the master
tape than you'd probably believe. System errors of wow, flutter, and rumble
were pretty much insignificant on well maintained equipment, except on the
lowest levels of classical music.

Steve King

[geoff]

Steve King wrote:
reference disc was only expected to be played a few times. Those
discs sounded great. Much closer to the master tape than you'd
probably believe.

But high and low frequencies hadn't been invented back thern ....

geoff

[RD Jones]

http://www.turnmeup.org

[ChrisCoaster]

On Feb 16, 5:25*am, RD Jones wrote:
http://www.turnmeup.org
_______________

Anyone on R.A.P., and maybe on R.A.T, should know that organization
and their work by now. All they need is more awareness and
recognition of their good work. But thanks for the reminder.

-CC

[Mike Rivers]

On 2/15/2012 10:19 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of
the works?

You don't write to anyone. You stop buying records.

Oh, wait a minute . . . you don't buy records, you borrow
them from the library. So I guess there's nothing you can do.

Well, maybe you can change the music you listen to, or the
way you listen to music. Go to some concerts, but not
concerts of the artists producing "too loud" CDs, go to
shows by your local artists playing in small venues without
huge sound systems. Then you can talk to your friends about
some of the music you're hearing that they're missing out on.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[ChrisCoaster]

On Feb 16, 8:01*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/15/2012 10:19 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of
the works?

You don't write to anyone. You stop buying records.

Oh, wait a minute . . . you don't buy records, you borrow
them from the library. So I guess there's nothing you can do.

Well, maybe you can change the music you listen to, or the
way you listen to music. Go to some concerts, but not
concerts of the artists producing "too loud" CDs, go to
shows by your local artists playing in small venues without
huge sound systems. Then you can talk to your friends about
some of the music you're hearing that they're missing out on.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff
__________________
There's nothing wrong with the fact that I am fan of a lot of so-
called mainstream stuff. A lot of *older* mainstream stuff! (Boston,
Beatles, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Journey, Rush, Run DMC, Diana Ross,
Beethoven, Liszt) ok not all of that is mainstream, but I want to hear
it again, as close to first pressing as possible! Those CDs are still
out there - mainly in peoples homes, or at the library or the local
Goodwill.

I have been in plenty of venues where live music is offered, and have
heard from reasonably good to pretty bad. On the bad end, it's just
too LOUD(outdoors at Veterans Park, so to speak). On the good end I
can hear the lyrics above the music(think coffee shop acoustic). I
know I can't get that on vinyl, CD or MP3. I just want the best those
formats can offer. I've always said if you feed a format right it can
sound great.

-CC