[JT]

What is stopping manufacturers from selling affordable in-dash hard drive
units with the same functionality (and price) as portable MP3 players? Is
there some marketing/licensing cabal working against these products? Are
they victims of consumer ignorance; people thinking it's easier to burn CDs
and DVDs than using a hard drive cartridge you can quickly replace songs
on? Is there some problem with HD reliability in a car environment with
heat, etc.?

The Empeg (aka Rio Car) was discontinued and overpriced to begin with.
"Changer" style HD units end up either discontinued or sold as high-cost
speciality items (Kenwood Music Keg, PhatBox). I read about iRiver setting
out to make a unit in 2004 but have seen nothing since. A few dash units
show up in luxury cars like Infinity but it's hard to tell who builds them.

Surely they can make something for the dash with a 20gb or 30gb drive for
about $300-$400? It seems so obvious to have all your music right there in
the dash, with a radio included. I'm almost becoming a conspiracy theorist
about the lack of these units. Does anyone have insight on why they're so
elusive?

JT

[Matt Ion]

JT wrote:
What is stopping manufacturers from selling affordable in-dash hard drive
units with the same functionality (and price) as portable MP3 players? Is
there some marketing/licensing cabal working against these products? Are
they victims of consumer ignorance; people thinking it's easier to burn CDs
and DVDs than using a hard drive cartridge you can quickly replace songs
on? Is there some problem with HD reliability in a car environment with
heat, etc.?

The Empeg (aka Rio Car) was discontinued and overpriced to begin with.
"Changer" style HD units end up either discontinued or sold as high-cost
speciality items (Kenwood Music Keg, PhatBox). I read about iRiver setting
out to make a unit in 2004 but have seen nothing since. A few dash units
show up in luxury cars like Infinity but it's hard to tell who builds them.

Surely they can make something for the dash with a 20gb or 30gb drive for
about $300-$400? It seems so obvious to have all your music right there in
the dash, with a radio included. I'm almost becoming a conspiracy theorist
about the lack of these units. Does anyone have insight on why they're so
elusive?

At a guess, I'd say maybe manufacturer reluctance has to do with how
inconvenient they'd be to load up. You'd either need some kind of removable
drive setup that would allow you to pull the drive out and take it inside to
plug into your computer, or you have to be able to take the whole deck in the
house, power it up, and plug it into the computer to transfer songs onto it.
This is easy with portable players (iPods, etc.) but not really so practical
with a car deck, especially as "shuttle deck" designs were abandoned years ago
as well.

I suspect most of the would-be builders see this particular logistical issue as
being a major roadblock to potential sales and thus a limitation to the
potential market.

[JT]

Matt Ion wrote in
newsEcGg.430303$iF6.302935@pd7tw2no:

At a guess, I'd say maybe manufacturer reluctance has to do with how
inconvenient they'd be to load up. You'd either need some kind of
removable drive setup that would allow you to pull the drive out and
take it inside to plug into your computer, or you have to be able to
take the whole deck in the house, power it up, and plug it into the
computer to transfer songs onto it. This is easy with portable players
(iPods, etc.) but not really so practical with a car deck, especially
as "shuttle deck" designs were abandoned years ago as well.

I suspect most of the would-be builders see this particular logistical
issue as being a major roadblock to potential sales and thus a
limitation to the potential market.

Well, the PhatBox (aka Kenwood Music Keg) solved that very issue with
removable DMS cartridges (www.phatnoise.com). They are now $600+ as
aftermarket units and Kenwood dropped out of the market for some reason.
Those Kegs were never cheap at $450+. eBay has them sometimes but I don't
trust their condition. I was always on the verge of getting one but the in-
dash concept seemed better so I held out.

They've certainly got hard drives small enough to fit in a standard DIN box
with AM/FM included. It shouldn't be much different than inserting a
cassette tape. Just eject the HD from the dash, connect it via USB, drag
and drop songs and put it back in the dash. No time wasted burning a whole
new CD or DVD, and more durable than DVD-RAM. To me, it seems well within
the reach of current technology.

JT

[MOSFET]

There are two things I predicted we would see in the future and I, too, am
surprised they are not catching on like I would expect:

First, HU's with memory stick ports in front (like the type used by cameras)
seems like a natural. The cost of 2-4 gig SD cards has come down
substantially in the last few years and it seems like a logical addition to
a HU (this way, you don't have to burn a disc, AND the newer ones can hold
significantly more than a CD-R).

Second, as you already mentioned, built in HD's. Empeg did have a fantastic
product (truly ahead of it's time, perhaps TOO ahead of it's time).

I suspect (and this is JUST a guess), that HU makers do not want to
antagonize the record industry, already leary of MP3. Yes, almost all HU's
today have MP3 capability, but, then again, almost EVERY SINGLE CD PLAYER
you can buy now has MP3 capability (even those cheapo $10 portable CD
players you buy at Walmart). It has become completely ubiqutues. By
incorporating a HD, however, this in a way discourages CD use (soemthing
record companies don't like). Especially those where you can put a CD in,
and it rips it to MP3 and stores on a HD (they REALLY hate that).

ALSO, as more and more HU's try and integrate their units to work smoothly
with iPod's (most of today's HU's have features that allow iPod control
functions right on the HU face), by having it's own HD built in, an iPod is
no longer necessary. This would not make Apple very happy. In fact, Apple
might decide that it no longer wants to help integrate it's iPod with Alpine
(let's say) if Alpine decided to start putting HD's in their HU's. They
would start seeing HU manufacturers not as partners, but as the competition.

So I see it as not wanting to **** off A) the recording industry and B)
(perhaps more important) not ****ing off Apple.

There could be other reasons as well. But I agree it is a DAMN good idea.

MOSFET

"JT" wrote in message
...
What is stopping manufacturers from selling affordable in-dash hard drive
units with the same functionality (and price) as portable MP3 players? Is
there some marketing/licensing cabal working against these products? Are
they victims of consumer ignorance; people thinking it's easier to burn
CDs
and DVDs than using a hard drive cartridge you can quickly replace songs
on? Is there some problem with HD reliability in a car environment with
heat, etc.?

The Empeg (aka Rio Car) was discontinued and overpriced to begin with.
"Changer" style HD units end up either discontinued or sold as high-cost
speciality items (Kenwood Music Keg, PhatBox). I read about iRiver setting
out to make a unit in 2004 but have seen nothing since. A few dash units
show up in luxury cars like Infinity but it's hard to tell who builds
them.

Surely they can make something for the dash with a 20gb or 30gb drive for
about $300-$400? It seems so obvious to have all your music right there in
the dash, with a radio included. I'm almost becoming a conspiracy theorist
about the lack of these units. Does anyone have insight on why they're so
elusive?

JT

[JT]

"MOSFET" wrote in
m:

I suspect (and this is JUST a guess), that HU makers do not want to
antagonize the record industry, already leary of MP3. Yes, almost all
HU's today have MP3 capability, but, then again, almost EVERY SINGLE
CD PLAYER you can buy now has MP3 capability (even those cheapo $10
portable CD players you buy at Walmart). It has become completely
ubiqutues. By incorporating a HD, however, this in a way discourages
CD use (soemthing record companies don't like). Especially those
where you can put a CD in, and it rips it to MP3 and stores on a HD
(they REALLY hate that).

The conspiracy theorist in me says you're on to something. I just hope it's
not about consumer ignorance or acceptance lag. There's a weird sort of
inertia against adopting obvious improvements.

At a price point of under $400 I think in-dash HD would take off. I'd even
be happy with a smallish 10gb drive. Sell us a dashPod, not just an iPod!

JT

[JT]

"MOSFET" wrote in
m:

ALSO, as more and more HU's try and integrate their units to work
smoothly with iPod's (most of today's HU's have features that allow
iPod control functions right on the HU face), by having it's own HD
built in, an iPod is no longer necessary.

Just recently, Mazda, Ford and GM announced upcoming factory integration
with iPods. That's only a step away from full dash integration. Wouldn't
Apple increase its total market, regardless? I think iPods are nice but
overrated. Any manufacturer could beat them to the punch. An iRiver H10
(20gb, AM/FM) in the dash seems begging to happen. I wouldn't buy one
without a radio in the same chassis.

JT

[Matt Ion]

JT wrote:

They've certainly got hard drives small enough to fit in a standard DIN box
with AM/FM included. It shouldn't be much different than inserting a
cassette tape. Just eject the HD from the dash, connect it via USB, drag
and drop songs and put it back in the dash. No time wasted burning a whole
new CD or DVD, and more durable than DVD-RAM. To me, it seems well within
the reach of current technology.

Yes, but then cost becomes a factor. Laptop hard drives would be a natural for
this - most are barely bigger than a cassette, and they tend to be fairly
shock-resistant, but they also cost a lot more than standard 3.5" hard drives.

Example: your average 80GB ATA-133/SATA 3.5" drive costs around CDN$60 at most
"hole-in-the-wall" computer stores around Vancouver. A *40GB* 2.5" notebook
drive, half the space, runs in the $100 range from the same retailer. 40GB is
the smallest notebook drive they list today; 80Gb is the smallest desktop drive.

Granted, it's not a HUGE price point, but it's still a consideration for them.

[[email protected]]

Sony made one a few years ago.. the MEX-1HD. 10gig hard drive.
MemoryStick slot. USB port to do firmware upgrades. It ripped songs
from CDs onto the HD at ~8x speed into a proprietary Sony format. You
couldn't copy music from a MemoryStick onto the hard drive, but it
would play songs from them.

They killed it off not long after it was released. I'm guessing the
Sony Music label heard about it and cried to Sony Electronics about
music piracy. I'm very glad I was able to pick one up when I did.. I
have over 100 ablums ripped to the HD, and never have to keep my CDs in
my truck longer than the time it takes to rip. I will cry like a
little girl when if / when it finally stops working.

I tried to get a firmware update for it a while back.. Called up Sony,
and no one seemed to know what I was talking about. Like it didn't
exist.

[MOSFET]

Your story helps confirm my theory. The music industry DOES NOT like this
HD idea one bit (yet it's such a FANTASTIC idea for consumers). They want
people feeding purchased CD's into their HU's. A HD eliminates this.

Also, consider the fact that with with CD's there is a greater likelihood
they will be damaged, stolen, etc.inside a car environment which will force
consumers to have to replace them (replacing scratched or stolen CD's
represents a HUGE revenue stream for record companies, and THEY KNOW IT).

MOSFET

wrote in message
ups.com...
Sony made one a few years ago.. the MEX-1HD. 10gig hard drive.
MemoryStick slot. USB port to do firmware upgrades. It ripped songs
from CDs onto the HD at ~8x speed into a proprietary Sony format. You
couldn't copy music from a MemoryStick onto the hard drive, but it
would play songs from them.

They killed it off not long after it was released. I'm guessing the
Sony Music label heard about it and cried to Sony Electronics about
music piracy. I'm very glad I was able to pick one up when I did.. I
have over 100 ablums ripped to the HD, and never have to keep my CDs in
my truck longer than the time it takes to rip. I will cry like a
little girl when if / when it finally stops working.

I tried to get a firmware update for it a while back.. Called up Sony,
and no one seemed to know what I was talking about. Like it didn't
exist.

[metal_flowboard]

making a HU with the hard drive built incould really easily be done,
But think a bit further than that, having the HD would allow you to
store more than music, if you coupled this music storage technology,
with a standard PDA, you would have a whole new generation of car HU's
Between an Ipod's HD and a PDA's insides, there would be loads of room
left in in a standard HU case
But with that extra bit of computing power, you could play music, watch
films, cnnect you fone to it via bluetooth for hands free, connect you
GPS to it
Suddenly youve got:
Music
Hands free
Films
PDA programmes such as excel powerpoint word
Connection to the internet via your fone
GPS
Email

and thats just what i can think of now, i think it would really work,
but you lot on here are right companys are being payed to hold back so
that the new technologys can be brought out to us slowly so we can by
one then the next then the next

a good example of this is already in cars, say a new car comes out and
it does so many MPG and has a certain BHP, this is all controlled by
the cars built in ECU
next year the same car could be rereleased as a better car when all
theyve done is reprogrammed it!

[mfreak]

Another thing they could do is to put a few gigs of flash on a HU face.
Then you could take your face inside, load it up via usb, and be on
your way. Flash is so tiny, there's nothing technically hard about
integrating an extra chip into a detachable face..

[JT]

"mfreak" wrote in news:1156249297.491406.293470@
74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:

Another thing they could do is to put a few gigs of flash on a HU face.
Then you could take your face inside, load it up via usb, and be on
your way. Flash is so tiny, there's nothing technically hard about
integrating an extra chip into a detachable face..

Very true, and SanDisk is now selling an 8gb flash portable for only $250.
Since various decks already have USB connectivity, why not go a step
further and make it the entire player? Plus a radio, of course.

I'm sure they could put 10gb to 20gb of flash memory in a DIN dashboard
slot at a price people would pay ($300-$400 range). What's the big hold up?

JT

[Jack]

wrote in news:1156194295.654681.206910@
74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:

Sony made one a few years ago.. the MEX-1HD. 10gig hard drive.
MemoryStick slot. USB port to do firmware upgrades. It ripped songs
from CDs onto the HD at ~8x speed into a proprietary Sony format. You
couldn't copy music from a MemoryStick onto the hard drive, but it
would play songs from them.

They killed it off not long after it was released. I'm guessing the
Sony Music label heard about it and cried to Sony Electronics about
music piracy. I'm very glad I was able to pick one up when I did.. I
have over 100 ablums ripped to the HD, and never have to keep my CDs in
my truck longer than the time it takes to rip. I will cry like a
little girl when if / when it finally stops working.

I tried to get a firmware update for it a while back.. Called up Sony,
and no one seemed to know what I was talking about. Like it didn't
exist.

I was also checking out that model but it was too pricey. And the inability
to bring the HD inside and manage it with software was a deal killer. It
was crippled by DRM.

The more I read about this, the more I'm thinking, forget the HD and go
with "flash in the dash." Something like the new SanDisk Sansa e280 (8gb)
would be a natural. You can get a deck with a USB port but I want something
specifically designed for car ergonomics and playlists.

JT

[MOSFET]

Exactly, I said this in my first post in this thread. As someone else said
"flash in the dash" makes the most sense as memory sticks are getting
cheaper and BIGGER (8+ gigs) every day.

It seems like a natural combination.

Again, I suspect the music industry may be behind this.

MOSFET
"mfreak" wrote in message
ups.com...
Another thing they could do is to put a few gigs of flash on a HU face.
Then you could take your face inside, load it up via usb, and be on
your way. Flash is so tiny, there's nothing technically hard about
integrating an extra chip into a detachable face..

[nanook]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:44:19 -0000, JT wrote:

"MOSFET" wrote in
om:

ALSO, as more and more HU's try and integrate their units to work
smoothly with iPod's (most of today's HU's have features that allow
iPod control functions right on the HU face), by having it's own HD
built in, an iPod is no longer necessary.

Just recently, Mazda, Ford and GM announced upcoming factory integration
with iPods. That's only a step away from full dash integration. Wouldn't
Apple increase its total market, regardless? I think iPods are nice but
overrated. Any manufacturer could beat them to the punch. An iRiver H10
(20gb, AM/FM) in the dash seems begging to happen. I wouldn't buy one
without a radio in the same chassis.

JT


i'm not for sure how much vibration a hard drive can take, even with
some dampening, we're still talking about 3 coated glass disks (which
some laptop HDD's are) and a swinging head. it won't take the
constant jarring and environmental changes gracefully, nor would the
heads survive the constant movement, bumps, and inertia changes, ever
hear of head slap? it's when the arms the heads are connected to move
enough out of place to actually make contact with the drive. this
means damaged sectors, damaged files, and possible a dead drive. not
a cheap proposition with something that will probably have a propriety
physical interface. i doubt they'll let you use just any drive.

I would think that above all, some type of integrated flash drive
would be better. the technology is improving and storage sizes are
getting bigger. USB 2 would be a perfect choice with all the existing
memory sticks floating around, a simple interface in which you
wouldn't need to lug a removable drive into the house or a laptop out
of the house in order to transfer music. the less there are of moving
parts, the better things will be. no wear and tear and no heat
generated from a motor. on board memory, supplemented by USB would
probably be good as well, you could either load the music, using a
flash drive or a computer interface. hmmm....

I guess the manufacturer could even go so far as to provide an
encryption flash drive to load onto the stereo, so if it is stolen,
it'll be worthless, my company has us using these "ActivKeys" for the
same purpose, if it's not in there, you can't log in.

whatever, I don't think that HDD's are the way to go, they've come a
long way, but they are still the prima donna's of the hardware
industry, when it comes to being manhandled.