http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article , (Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more difficult
to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and smaller ones)
than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter a menu just to
change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU in my 2002 Civic
Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark. My new Excelon
deck requires far too much attention if I want to make adjustments while
driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it sounds great though.
Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of user friendliness and
intuitive operation. At least they are thinking about that aspect.
And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with don't
integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a large
number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these factory
systems really are getting quite good.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers
include ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper
(on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince
a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and
get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all
but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as
well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they
were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and
fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS
TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at
the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole
import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the
one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and
the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be
fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a
choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR
emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers) MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever
since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

Oh, yea ... and I'll bet that the increase in leasing cars vs buying
outright hasn't helped much either. And an Alpine dealer told me today that
Alpine sees the market going in a different direction. Maybe that is why
they did not invest heavily in their HU line this year, actually scaling
back on many costly features. Maybe they want to capture market share at a
different price point and let Pioneer and some of the others duke it out in
the dwindling high dollar CD/MP3 receiver market.

- RG

"RG" wrote in message
...
One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more
difficult to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and
smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter
a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU
in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark.
My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I want to make
adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it
sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of
user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are thinking
about that aspect.
And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with
don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a
large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these
factory systems really are getting quite good.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly.
As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto
manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper
(on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you
convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend
$100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to
be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has
all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you
could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE
around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good.
Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and
neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc.
IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean,
look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when
the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many
reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do
with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that
we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel
they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a
damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy
(like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever
since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

Oh, yea ... and I'll bet that the increase in leasing cars vs buying
outright hasn't helped much either. And an Alpine dealer told me today
that Alpine sees the market going in a different direction. Maybe that is
why they did not invest heavily in their HU line this year, actually
scaling back on many costly features. Maybe they want to capture market
share at a different price point and let Pioneer and some of the others
duke it out in the dwindling high dollar CD/MP3 receiver market.

- RG

That's a REALLY good point. Alpine HAS been lowering price points for all
it's models and has indeed been scaling back on features. As RG has said,
perhaps consumer feedback indicates that most people DO find these new decks
too complicated and would prefer a simpler set of features.

Something I should have added on my previous post, the domeinance of MP3
CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED AS A ANOTHER REASON FOR THE DOWNFALL OF SQ. As we all
know, the MP3 format is inferior in SQ to CD or DVD, yet it has become very
POPULAR, in large part to the UNBELIEVABLY popular iPod. This shift (from
SQ to convience) may have much to do with the decline in high-end
manufacturer's like PG and why companies like Alpine are scaling back
features that were typically considered high-end (like time correction for
instance). Companies are just not emphasising SQ anymore b/c they know many
people these days will be listening to MP3's.

I've said this before, but you should hear how home stereo Audiophiles moan
and groan when the topic of MP3's comes up. Many think the MP3 format is
SINGLE-HANDEDLY destrying new innovations in sound quality and MP3 is
CERTAINLY hampering the introduction of new formats such as DVD-Audio. Many
believe that the entire audio industry as a whole is moving backwards when
it comes to SQ. And I hate to admitt it, but I'm guilty of this shift
backwards as well. MP3's are all I listen to any more in my car. I suppose
the answer to all this is to ome up with an equivalant format that has the
same (OR BETTER) sound quality of CD, yet has all the benefits of MP3 (small
file sizes, easy to transfer and manage, etc.).

But for the masses, I'm afraid MP3 is adequate and here to stay (whether we
like it or not).

MOSFET



"RG" wrote in message
...
One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more
difficult to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and
smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to
enter a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The
factory HU in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even
in the dark. My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I
want to make adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But
hey, it sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large
degree of user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are
thinking about that aspect.
And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with
don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a
large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of
these factory systems really are getting quite good.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly.
As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto
manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been
cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can
you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can
spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to
be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ
has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago
you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE
around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good.
Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and
neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS,
etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I
mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so,
right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There
are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest
has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and
the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people
began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and
not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything
that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity
that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline
ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

RG wrote:
The factory HU in my 2002 Civic
Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark.

HEH, I own an EP3 too, an '04.

Chad

Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed, Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page=
1

What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I
must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking
it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my
parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real
quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for
navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav
could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the
benefits.

- RG


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL
competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems
for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I
just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments
with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning
from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the
insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any
car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in
those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic
soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed,
Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on
a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the
time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis
on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page=
1

I use my video screen ALL the time. It makes a great way to see all my MP3
titles at one time, and an easier way to scroll through a disc full of mp3
titles. I can play MP3's through both my HU (an Alpine 9853) or my DVD
player, but I generally prefer to listen through the DVD player because of
the screen and being able to see all the titles (I can scroll down like a
computer to find the title I want).

But no, I NEVER watch DVD's in my car. I thought perhaps passengers might
on a long trip, but no, it NEVER gets used that way.

But I think you two (Howdy and RG) would change your opinion about video
screens if you had a screen to manage your MP3 titles.

MOSFET

"RG" wrote in message
...
What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and
I must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in
thinking it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies
in my parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always
get real quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes
for navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps.
Nav could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs
the benefits.

- RG


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL
competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems
for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I
just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments
with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning
from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the
insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any
car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in
those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic
soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed,
Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly.
As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on
a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and
get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and
fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the
time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis
on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page=
1

In car video is one thing that I can do without, I can beat my meat to a porn
movie at home. Navigation for me is a no can do without. My wife just doesn't
understand the idea of how maps work, and around the Toronto area one wrong
turn can cost you can hour during rush hour as the highways around Toronto
become parking lots.

Our first trip to Florida was a nightmare because of my wife's lack of mapping
skills, and this is what drove me to spend the $1500 at that time on a
navigation system. The thing I like the best about the navigation system other
then not getting lost is that it gives me a phone number of the motels/hotels,
restaurants along my route and the money you can save just by being able to
find a hotel a few miles from the interstate is awesome.




In article , "RG"
wrote:
What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I
must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking
it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my
parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real
quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for
navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav
could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the
benefits.

- RG


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL
competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems
for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I
just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments
with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning
from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the
insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any
car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in
those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic
soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed,
Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on
a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the
time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis
on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...tory6.html?pag
e=
1

I use mine nearly every day. I watch TV episodes on DVD or movies during
my lunch break as they refuse to acknowledge the TV in the breakroom is
broken. Each episode lasts about 45 minutes, so I get about 15 minutes
to run and get food, then watch it while sitting in front of the
building. I also use it on long car trips for passengers sometimes.
Usually I just listen to XM in that case though. Navigation would be
cool, but I can't justify the cost when a map works, as well as pulling
up mapquest or google maps on my PDA phone.

Brandonb


Captain Howdy wrote:
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just
don't see the need or point behind it.

MOSFET wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1

As we've tried to build our retail operation, we've learned quite a lot
about this industry very quickly. First, the industry is going to have
to throw off some companies because the market is simply saturated with
product.

Imagine being a guy who doesn't have a electrical engineering degree,
who didn't really grow up with car audio, who loves music and wants a
kick ass system -- what does this cat have to go through to get a great
sounding system at a good price? If he came to this message board he'd
get steem rolled with information that was way over his head (and
conflicting). He could read one of the car audio magazines that he
could find at Boarders...oh, they only have one at Boarders! If he did
buy the magazine, he'd see a laundry list of manufacturers and longer
lists of models and meaningless (to him) lists of specs for the models.


This dude ends up going to Wal Mart, picking up some Sony Xplod, and
will probably be pretty happy. Well, until he comes across a guy with
Kicker who says it's the shiznit, and he runs out and buys a bunch of
Kicker stuff. He can't tell the difference, but at least he *feels*
like he has a better system. Then somebody tells him Kicker blows and
that he really needs some Kappas. After buying a few systems and
spending more money than he ever wanted to, ol' boy buys a car with a
factory Bose system, realizes that it sounds about as good as anything
else and gives up on car audio.

Could you imagine if there were over 200 different makes of cars (like
there is in the car amplifier world)? The industry needs to be cut
down to a more reasonable level of competition so that prices can be
set at a sustainable level (when I was selling items for 5% over cost,
I sold more than I could handle but made no money. When I moved to 30%
over, it became worth it to sell things, but people bought from
Etronics instead...at 5% over cost). This will happen in time, because
if I can't make any money selling car audio, then the manufacturers
can't make money either and they will start dropping off.

The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly
and understandable to the average consumer. Also, those companies that
operate with some honesty will do better than those with trumped up
specs. Right now even if a newbie learns what all the specs mean they
almost instantly learn that the specs are highly manipulated and not to
be trusted.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Pious

Yes every body has bought one of the average brands (to start with), only a
subset of them moved to higher brands. Overflowing pockets may start with
the high-end directly but how many overflowing pockets are out there
anyways.

On the same line how many people will afford the cost of a fully commercial
free channels. Not the average consumer! All companies will end up having
both average / high-end; cheap / robust systems for us.

Well Said Pious


"Pious Audio" wrote in message
ups.com...
| The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
| the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly
| and understandable to the average consumer.

| Pious

youve convensed me. since theyre all the same i'm going all pyle..ty
no kicker/infinity/nakamishi /alpine/rf/clarion/jlaudio for me.

The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly
and understandable to the average consumer. Also, those companies that
operate with some honesty will do better than those with trumped up
specs. Right now even if a newbie learns what all the specs mean they
almost instantly learn that the specs are highly manipulated and not to
be trusted.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Pious

I agree with many things you said. It made me think about how I learned
about car audio and how my first system was built. I had my first system
built in 1990 by Magnolia Hi-Fi in Portland, OR and I knew ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING about car audio (though I did know a lot about home stereo systems).
I was lucky to have a VERY patient salesman who explained MANY things to me
and steered me into a Kenwood CD HU (I had gone in thinking I wanted
cassette, dumb, dumb, dumb), a Rockford Fosgate Punch 75 amp driving a 12"
RF sub, and Boston Acoustics speakers. I was VERY pleased with my first
system and glad he guided me towards good brands (I had never even HEARD of
Rockford Fosgate before going to that store).

This was before the days of the internet and after I bought that first
system (and had caught the car audio bug) I actually learned TONS from car
audio magazines, in fact, most of the basics that I know today I learned
from magazines. But one thing I've noticed is that the car audio magazines
like CA&E, CSR, and AS&S were VERY different back then. They were filled
with information for the DIY, explanations of basic electrical principles,
how to remove door panels, how to swap out a HU, and on and on. They were
full of info for the newbie. When I flip through TODAY'S car audio
magazines there is none of this. They are just filled with fancy imports
full of fiberglass and expensive products that VERY FEW could afford and
CERTAINLY does not represent anything like a "starter system". I also
notice that these magazines are MUCH thinner (fewer pages) than they used to
be. Anyway, I agree that for a person looking to learn about car audio,
these days car audio magazines ARE NOT the way to go.

I think there are some EXCELLENT resources on the internet where a person
can learn about car audio. This group's own FAQ makes an EXCELLENT tutorial
for the newbie. And what you don't learn from the FAQ, this group can
answer ALMOST ANY question one might have (I can't count how many times the
guys on this group have answered important questions I have had).

Yes, sometimes there seems like there is too much information and
conflicting information everywhere you look, but frankly I think THERE HAS
NEVER BEEN A BETTER time to learn about and build your first system. Prices
have never been lower and like I said, the internet makes a great source of
information, you just have to slowly sift through it.

MOSFET

snip
MOSFET wrote:
Prices
have never been lower and like I said, the internet makes a great source of
information, you just have to slowly sift through it.

MOSFET

I certainly wouldn't argue that an enterprising newbie couldn't learn
every bit of what they needed to know to build a great system today.
What I am saying is that the industry can't expect the public to do
that en mass. In the car industry, since I used that example before,
they make it clear to the average consumer what they can expect from
each product (MPG, Horsepower, Standard/Automatic, A/C -- and so on),
the audio industry does a terrible job at relaying that sort of basic
information about its products.

It's pretty well known that MPG is measured on flat tracks at 55-65
MPH, windows up a/c off. Even car audio experts can't make a sweeping
statement about how an Amps power rating is determined without first
explaining that each manufacturer does it their own way, and that
technique may vary depending upon which model is being tested and what
price point the model is supposed to hit.

The industry can either be elitist (awarding those who are willing to
invest great deals of time in learning what's what), or they can sell
tons of stuff at good prices. It's difficult to do both.

Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in
popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells
you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power
programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using
their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of
rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by
dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'.

Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from
back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a
cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a
nice record is ooooh so nice sounding.


--
vfootballphs

"vfootballphs" wrote in
message ...

Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from
back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a
cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a
nice record is ooooh so nice sounding.


--
vfootballphs

I concur, And there's stuff out there on vinyl that you just can't get on
CD now. Another thing is that vinyl has OUTLIVED CD already. The pigments
in early CD 's are failing quickly and are un-playable, as in no-go. At
least with analog media the information is still there albeit noisy,
sometimes in archival, that's all that counts!

Chad

I will make a true confession. I have owned several good Technics
turntables in my life (of moderate quality). But I have NEVER listened to
or owned a high-end turntable/arm/cartridge playing well-mastered records on
a REALLY good system. Perhaps if I did I might have a different perception
about the merits of vinyl. But until I do, the lure is not enough to make
me want to go out and spend $2,000 on a good turntable/tonearm/cartridge
combination. I guess I must admit I really don't know if this
"vinyl-worship" is truly warranted. Though I have always been suspicious
that it is the "flaws" inherent in vinyl that add to the allure. For
instance, a 60 inch TV looks better from 20 feet away than from two feet
away. My car-audio system picks up every flaw in an older piece of music,
yet when the same piece is played on a stock system these flaws seem to
disappear (to the point that very old recording will sometimes sound BETTER
on a poorer system). I am suspicious that the lower fidelity, vinyl medium,
hides flaws by the nature of it's limited bandwidth. I fear this is partly
the reason vinyl "seems" to sound so good. The deeper we probe, the more
flaws we see. It's simple. Vinyl, IMHO, does not probe too deep.

OK, I now I've opened myself up here. Let the rebuttals fly!

MOSFET

"vfootballphs" wrote in
message ...

Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from
back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a
cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a
nice record is ooooh so nice sounding.


--
vfootballphs

i find it hard to do my scratching on those cd players..uuuugghhh! ok
player.