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Keith G Keith G is offline
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"Rob" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:



****ing hard to stay out of all this crap, ain't it?

:-)



Well, the weekend had started :-)

This thread is fairly benign.



That's because ukra's No.1 Poison Dwarf is no longer with us - you
remember: Two rational posts then rapidly degenerating into invective
and verbal abuse in any 'vinyl thread'!


It's when the rant gets ratcheted up to
bits and noise, and CDs simply *must* sound better that I get bemused.
A clear case of autosuggestion.



What? Like 'Vinyl lovers tend to give the impression there are no poorly
recorded LPs.'..??

;-)



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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rob wrote:
This thread is fairly benign. It's when the rant gets ratcheted up to
bits and noise, and CDs simply *must* sound better that I get
bemused. A
clear case of autosuggestion.


The CD *medium* will always sound better than vinyl - if you value
audio
quality. Individual CDs are a different matter. Rubbish in rubbish
out.
But then that applies to vinyl too. Vinyl lovers tend to give the
impression there are no poorly recorded LPs.




And CD lovers tend to give the impression there are no poorly recorded
CDs, but you should know better than to go by *impressions*...



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"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


No, as I've said recently elsewhere, I'm heartily sick
of seeing the words 'valvelike' and 'analogue sound'
being applied to SS kit and digital music by silly *hip*
magazine writers.



Agreed, no reason to slander good SS kit and good
digital recordings that way.



Except to *tempt* people to buy it....??


In fact there's virtually no discussion of SS versus tubed audio gear
anyplace but a few esoteric circles. The days of comparsions between tubed
and SS passed along several decades ago, with SS winning decisively.

Here's your challenge - find a significant (3% of the market) amount of
newly-produced media, or even media produced produced in the last 30 years,
that didn't pass through at least one SS device.


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"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly likely) -
it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.


Not in terms of sales percentages.



No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of 19.8%
in just three months was a pretty good indicator:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm


OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a sales percentage for
vinyl, and an indicator of an ongoing transition from one form of digital
media to another form of digital media.

Not my problem!


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"Keith G" wrote in message



And CD lovers tend to give the impression there are no
poorly recorded CDs,



Straw man argument, if not an out-an-out lie!




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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message



And CD lovers tend to give the impression there are no
poorly recorded CDs,



Straw man argument, if not an out-an-out lie!



Just a little too selectively snipped for me, Arny - go say the same to
Plowie for "Vinyl lovers tend to give the
impression there are no poorly recorded LPs." and we'll maybe continue
the debate....

....but not for a while, I'm off out on me motorcycle while the sun's
shining!! :-)




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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


No, as I've said recently elsewhere, I'm heartily sick
of seeing the words 'valvelike' and 'analogue sound'
being applied to SS kit and digital music by silly *hip*
magazine writers.


Agreed, no reason to slander good SS kit and good
digital recordings that way.



Except to *tempt* people to buy it....??


In fact there's virtually no discussion of SS versus tubed audio gear
anyplace but a few esoteric circles. The days of comparsions between
tubed and SS passed along several decades ago, with SS winning
decisively.



Irrelevant.


Here's your challenge - find a significant (3% of the market) amount
of newly-produced media, or even media produced produced in the last
30 years, that didn't pass through at least one SS device.



No, that's *your* challenge and I choose to ignore it - I simply don't
care what equipment is used to produce the music I listen to, I only
know how I prefer to listen to it. I fully expect various combinations
of valve and SS, digital and analogue processes to come into it at some
stage, anyway - depending on what the music is, where and when is was
recorded and produced...



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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly likely) -
it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.

Not in terms of sales percentages.



No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of 19.8%
in just three months was a pretty good indicator:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm


OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a sales percentage
for vinyl, and an indicator of an ongoing transition from one form of
digital media to another form of digital media.

Not my problem!



I think it is, unless you are deliberately obfuscating/distorting or, as
others imply, failing to read properly or grasp the meaning of my post -
my point was that it is CDs which are disappearing and I provided
evidence. If you want to relate that simple statement to percentages of
the weekly grocery bill or compare it with sales of leather goods or any
other thing which is not a CD, then it *is* your problem.

(Go ask EMI about this bit in particular: "The British group has been
struggling to survive in the face of falling CD sales - particularly in
the US market.")



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In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The CD *medium* will always sound better than vinyl - if you value
audio
quality. Individual CDs are a different matter. Rubbish in rubbish
out.
But then that applies to vinyl too. Vinyl lovers tend to give the
impression there are no poorly recorded LPs.




And CD lovers tend to give the impression there are no poorly recorded
CDs, but you should know better than to go by *impressions*...


Lots and lots on here about poor mastering of recent CDs.

Of course had this group existed 30 years ago the complaints would have
been about poor pressings.

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On Sep 1, 9:20 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Here's your challenge - find a significant (3% of the market) amount of
newly-produced media, or even media produced produced in the last 30 years,
that didn't pass through at least one SS device.


Here's your challenge, Arns. Give us the percentage of newly or
recently-produced media that passed through at least one tube device.
Let's exclude instrument amplification, as that will hugely skew the
numbers up.



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On Aug 31, 3:54 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Keith G" wrote in message





No, as I've said recently elsewhere, I'm heartily sick of
seeing the words 'valvelike' and 'analogue sound' being
applied to SS kit and digital music by silly *hip*
magazine writers.


Agreed, no reason to slander good SS kit and good digital recordings that
way.


Still having trouble accepting that others don't see it your way.

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"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message




My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is falling off,
and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail off.


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly
likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.


Not in terms of sales percentages.


No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of
19.8% in just three months was a pretty good indicator:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm


OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a
sales percentage for vinyl, and an indicator of an
ongoing transition from one form of digital media to
another form of digital media.


Not my problem!


I think it is, unless you are deliberately
obfuscating/distorting or, as others imply, failing to
read properly or grasp the meaning of my post - my point
was that it is CDs which are disappearing and I provided
evidence.


I reproduced my OP on the topic above, and it doesn't even mention CDs.
Therefore Keith, your attempt to introduce CD sales, given that CDs are a
form of media that I didn't even mention, is an obvious example of a red
herring argument. It's just another one of your an intentional attempt to
mislead the discussion from its origional intent.

The original intent was to make the point that LP sales have dropped
preciptiously in the US in the past year - about 33%.


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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The CD *medium* will always sound better than vinyl - if you value
audio
quality. Individual CDs are a different matter. Rubbish in rubbish
out.
But then that applies to vinyl too. Vinyl lovers tend to give the
impression there are no poorly recorded LPs.




And CD lovers tend to give the impression there are no poorly recorded
CDs, but you should know better than to go by *impressions*...


Lots and lots on here about poor mastering of recent CDs.

Of course had this group existed 30 years ago the complaints would have
been about poor pressings.

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Poor pressings were ubiquitous at the time. I started buying LPs in the
sixties, and had a system sufficiently good to appreciate pressing quality
by the late 60s. *Every* LP I bought ultimately dissapointed due to surface
clicks and pops. Try listening to the second movement of Beethoven's Emperor
concerto on LP, and see if you can suspend disbelief that you're scraping
the music off the plastic with a rock on the end of a stick. You'll hear
every click and pop. I used to return 5 or 6 LPs for every one I bought, in
a vain attempt to find a quiet one. I wished and prayed for a distribution
medium that would reproduce the master tape without interference. Cassettes
(self recorded from Radio 3) were rather better, but pre-recorded cassettes
weren't as good as LPs as although they didn't have the impulsive noise,
they had all sorts of other shortcomings. When, in 1977, I first heard what
became CD, (I was working for Philips at the time), it was what I had been
waiting for. What was eventually released after Sony got involved was even
better than Philips's own developments. (As an aside, Philips conceived CD
as an in-car medium only, and the first CDs were rather smaller and of lower
quality, so the player could fit into a standard DIN car radio slot)
*Everything* about CD was as improvement over LP and cassette. Even the much
maligned jewel box, I couldn't see much wrong with it once you got the hang
of opening it. Sleeve art aside, CDs came with a booklet, so even the sleeve
notes were often more comprehensive.

No, for me at least, CD did and still does everything I need from a music
carrier, and I play LPs for fun, (I have three turntables) much as I would
drive a 1930s MG, or when the musical content is more important than the
reproduced quality.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message




My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is falling
off, and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail off.


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly
likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.


Not in terms of sales percentages.


No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of
19.8% in just three months was a pretty good indicator:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm


OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a
sales percentage for vinyl, and an indicator of an
ongoing transition from one form of digital media to
another form of digital media.


Not my problem!


I think it is, unless you are deliberately
obfuscating/distorting or, as others imply, failing to
read properly or grasp the meaning of my post - my point
was that it is CDs which are disappearing and I provided
evidence.


I reproduced my OP on the topic above, and it doesn't even mention
CDs. Therefore Keith, your attempt to introduce CD sales, given that
CDs are a form of media that I didn't even mention, is an obvious
example of a red herring argument. It's just another one of your an
intentional attempt to mislead the discussion from its origional
intent.




When you deliberately crosspost into ukra you will get dragged anywhere
us ukranians want to take you. (It's hard, but then life *is* hard -
deal with it....)

AFAIAC and in context, my CD comment was a perfectly valid counter to
the immediately preceding remarks concerning vinyl. I neither know nor
care what was said in the OP - wherever it was and whenever was. (Tbh, I
have been blowing this thread en bloc and have only responded the the
old isolated remark that I have obviously found too difficult to
ignore.)



The original intent was to make the point that LP sales have dropped
preciptiously in the US in the past year - about 33%.



And this?

Just WTF has that to do with the price of pork chops in Saigon? Like,
who TF *cares* - It wouldn't even bother me if it was true for the UK!!

I wish a) these *transatlantic* crosspostings would end and b) I had the
willpower to resist them entirely...

(But I can't. I'll just have to try and live with it! :-))


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"Serge Auckland" wrote



Poor pressings were ubiquitous at the time.



??

I dunno, I must be much more easily pleased - I don't remember *ever*
taking an LP back to the shop!! The nearest to that I actually remember
was complaining to an eBay seller about a ropey Bladerunner I had
bought. He said 'Sorry about that, I'll send you a couple more to see if
you can get a good one out of them and I'll complain to my supplier!' -
and he did! It turns out they were brand new *bootlegs* being knocked
out in Germany somewhere!!

Also, I now remember, Swim bought me Bjork's 'Medullah' on vinyl up in
Scotland a couple of years back. Some distance away from the shop, she
stopped and slipped it out to check it (she's bought more vinyl than
most here, I suspect, and knows the score). There were some 'dimples' on
it, so she took it straight back to swap it only to find the two other
copies the shop had were gone in the 10 minutes or so since she left the
shop! Daft sod then got a refund and the net result is I still don't
have Medullah on vinyl yet!! (Dimples don't bother me either!! ;-)

Real time interruption: Swim has just advised me that Mole Jazz has now
closed down forever!!

:-(



I started buying LPs in the
sixties, and had a system sufficiently good to appreciate pressing
quality by the late 60s. *Every* LP I bought ultimately dissapointed
due to surface clicks and pops. Try listening to the second movement
of Beethoven's Emperor concerto on LP, and see if you can suspend
disbelief that you're scraping the music off the plastic with a rock
on the end of a stick. You'll hear every click and pop. I used to
return 5 or 6 LPs for every one I bought, in a vain attempt to find a
quiet one.



Streuth....



*Everything* about CD was as improvement over LP and cassette. Even
the much maligned jewel box, I couldn't see much wrong with it once
you got the hang of opening it.



You're kidding now, Serge - aren't you?


Sleeve art aside, CDs came with a booklet, so even the sleeve
notes were often more comprehensive.



Whaaat? Even the *Demon Digi***** (who shall remain nameless and who is
no longer with us) readily conceded the artwork/sleeve notes were much
better with LPs. Ain't you got any LPs with all the *words* (and
translations) on nice, big, fold-out booklets? (Stuck for the right
name - 'libretti' doesn't seem right....)




No, for me at least, CD did and still does everything I need from a
music carrier, and I play LPs for fun, (I have three turntables) much
as I would drive a 1930s MG, or when the musical content is more
important than the reproduced quality.



But what if you found yourself driving the MG much more than your
'modern' car...???





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So do I. OK, so that precludes anything on vinyl because any recording on
vinyl is by definition not well recorded. No skin off my nose.


I'm not sure I would go that far. I have been harping on the theoretical
advantages of digital audio since 1976. But I have some LPs dating back to
the early 70s that I would say are very well recorded, and provide the same
level of enjoyment as a well recorded CD, even if there is the occasional
tick or pop. Here are some of my favorite LPs:

- Toto IV - Toto (Columbia)
- Abbey Road - Beatles (Mobile Fidelity)
- Capriccio Italien from the 1812 Overture LP - Tchaikovsky (Telarc)
- Aspen Gold - Kingston Trio (Nautilus)
- Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975 - Eagles (Asylum)

To name a few. Some recordings, such as Rumours by Fleetwood Mac sound
better on the LP. The 1982 CD remaster simply falls flat - not the
technology, but the implementation. On the other hand, the Mirage CD from
the same era sounds great.


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Default Note to Jenn


"George I M A ****" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...
You admit you don't care about other opinions either,


Incorrect.


What part of "And I couldn't give a rat's what YOU prefer either." is
incorrect?


If this doesn't tell you how futile it is to argue with ****, then you
deserve the coming rounds of "debating trade" you're heading for.


Yes George, silly isn't it to debate with someone who can actually quote
what you said when you deny it.
You would prefer people with memories shorter than your own, IF they even
exist.

MrT.


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"George IM. ****" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
news:repost.4bued3hje57agm4grbe3tnq0f1aksb87up@4ax .com...
The corrected version reads "You, like other
enlightened individuals, are perfectly justified in ignoring the
opinions of gibbering baboons."


Thanks, I will.

MrT.


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"roughplanet" wrote in message
u...
Uh huh. So this is where you hang out these days, still banging the same

old
anti-vinyl gong.


If I'm so anti vinyl, how come I still have over 1000 LP's?
Face it Ruff, *I* didn't start this or *ANY* other vinyl Vs digital debate.
Can you say the same?

Different newsgroup, same message. Not much changes, does
it T?


Nope, some people still can't accept that technology has actually improved.

MrT.


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"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
ups.com...
Here's your challenge, Arns. Give us the percentage of newly or
recently-produced media that passed through at least one tube device.
Let's exclude instrument amplification, as that will hugely skew the
numbers up.


Yes, unlike many of the posters here, most professional guitarists I know
actually accept that there is a difference between musical *production* and
music *reproduction*

Too subtle a concept for many it seems.

MrT.




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"Keith G" wrote in message
...
No Jenn you've got it all wrong. We're accusing vinyl fans of
distorting established scientific facts to support their delusional
position that the best sounding LPs sound more lifelike than a
well-made CD.



Which, of course, it does - ask anybody who isn't in *denial*....


Did you forget the smiley, or the medication :-)

MrT.


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"Jenn" wrote in message

et...
You've missed the point yet again. My point is that I've distorted
NOTHING. You and Mr. T can keep distorting my statements any way you
wish to. I "pity the fools" who can read simple posts.


Yep, your posts are so simple they are content free it seems. ANY
interpretation is strongly denied!

MrT.


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Yep it's been happening for 25 years and no sign of
stopping.


My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is falling off,

and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail off.


I'll bet it doesn't, unfortunately.

Vinylista propaganda is more like an indeology than a religion. Converting
to Vinylism seems to often involve refuting the established claims of
science,


Isn't that just what Religion did too? Should we still accept that the sun
and stars revolve around the earth?
Was Darwin right, or just another heretic like Galileo?
And how old is the universe in your religion Arny?
What about the so called "intelligent design", "debate"?

Still let's NOT go down that track in this newsgroup! :-)

MrT.


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"Keith G" wrote in message
...
No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are *distorting* again
which, of course, is highly likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing
rapidly.


Where the hell do YOU live?
But I note you do NOT claim vinyl sales have even reached the most minuscule
percentage of CD sales, or availability.

It's amazing what you can do with statistics though. An Audio rag recently
claimed that turntable sales in England were greater than CD player sales
last year.
Even IF true, what they conveniently ignored was the millions of DVD player,
SACD player, DVDA player and other assorted hybrid player sales, that all
play standard CD disks.
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" is still a widely
accepted philosophy it seems.

MrT.


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"Rob" wrote in message
...
My take is that they PREFER the so called "euphonic distortions",


Prefer the sound, OK. I think you just have to take a deep breath,
relax, and get over it.


And IF they did, these debates would have finished 25 years ago.
Some people still listen to wax cylinders, without needing to "prove" they
are better than CD

but can't
possibly accept the fact that they may PREFER something not actually as
technically accurate.


I don't think 'they' know or care, in general.


And the ones that don't DO NOT post their opinions here obviously.


They then have to come up with stupid explanations
plausible to themselves,


Really? Again, generally people just prefer the sound. The 'why' isn't
particularly important. Knowing why might be interesting, but it's
hardly requisite.


Sure it is when they are claiming to the world that their *preference* is
technically superior, when all proof is to the contrary.

MrT.




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Rob[_3_] Rob[_3_] is offline
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Mr.T wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...
My take is that they PREFER the so called "euphonic distortions",

Prefer the sound, OK. I think you just have to take a deep breath,
relax, and get over it.


And IF they did, these debates would have finished 25 years ago.
Some people still listen to wax cylinders, without needing to "prove" they
are better than CD

but can't
possibly accept the fact that they may PREFER something not actually as
technically accurate.

I don't think 'they' know or care, in general.


And the ones that don't DO NOT post their opinions here obviously.


Mmm. Not sure what you mean. I know that I generally prefer the sound of
vinyl. I don't know why it sounds better than, say, CD. And I post here.


They then have to come up with stupid explanations
plausible to themselves,

Really? Again, generally people just prefer the sound. The 'why' isn't
particularly important. Knowing why might be interesting, but it's
hardly requisite.


Sure it is when they are claiming to the world that their *preference* is
technically superior, when all proof is to the contrary.


I don't think anyone on this NG (or elsewhere, come to that) has the
ability to *prove* the inherent technical superiority of one over the
other. It depends on your definition of 'technical', and the
significance of that definition when it comes to the sound. I think.

Rob
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tony sayer tony sayer is offline
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In article ddlCi.2291$sf1.250@trnddc01, Karl Uppiano
scribeth thus
So do I. OK, so that precludes anything on vinyl because any recording on
vinyl is by definition not well recorded. No skin off my nose.


I'm not sure I would go that far. I have been harping on the theoretical
advantages of digital audio since 1976. But I have some LPs dating back to
the early 70s that I would say are very well recorded, and provide the same
level of enjoyment as a well recorded CD, even if there is the occasional
tick or pop. Here are some of my favorite LPs:

- Toto IV - Toto (Columbia)
- Abbey Road - Beatles (Mobile Fidelity)
- Capriccio Italien from the 1812 Overture LP - Tchaikovsky (Telarc)
- Aspen Gold - Kingston Trio (Nautilus)
- Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975 - Eagles (Asylum)

To name a few. Some recordings, such as Rumours by Fleetwood Mac sound
better on the LP. The 1982 CD remaster simply falls flat - not the
technology, but the implementation. On the other hand, the Mirage CD from
the same era sounds great.




I remember several years ago being demonstrated some vinyl replay at
the home of Derek Scotland of Audiolab fame. I was very surprised by
just how good it was then!. All down to a very good MM pre-amp stage, he
spent a lot of time getting that designed right!. Good replay system
Audiolab and ESL63's, and most important of all there wasn't one single
pressing from the UK!. All were from Germany or the USA and specialised
suppliers at that!.

I remember his opinion of anything to do with any plastic pressing or
moulding process in the UK as,

...."all we're capable of is making children's **** pots!"......

Meaning sadly amongst many other things that the UK doesn't have such
people as plastics engineers;(....

and this was before the days that record producers had the notion that
CD's should all be the "radio edit" versions!....
--
Tony Sayer


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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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Default Here we go again!

In article ,
Rob wrote:
Mmm. Not sure what you mean. I know that I generally prefer the sound of
vinyl. I don't know why it sounds better than, say, CD. And I post here.


You like the added harmonic distortion. Rock guitar players do too. Others
will find it pleasant enough on some material but very objectionable on
others.


They then have to come up with stupid explanations
plausible to themselves,
Really? Again, generally people just prefer the sound. The 'why' isn't
particularly important. Knowing why might be interesting, but it's
hardly requisite.


Sure it is when they are claiming to the world that their *preference*
is technically superior, when all proof is to the contrary.


I don't think anyone on this NG (or elsewhere, come to that) has the
ability to *prove* the inherent technical superiority of one over the
other. It depends on your definition of 'technical', and the
significance of that definition when it comes to the sound. I think.


Parameters to measure an audio signal have been around and accepted for
many a year - and by the very people who make both the equipment and
sources you listen to. And vinyl doesn't measure well. Of course you can
fool yourself that those parameters aren't important. Provided you are
very selective about which ones.

--
*Speak softly and carry a cellular phone *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
I remember several years ago being demonstrated some vinyl replay at
the home of Derek Scotland of Audiolab fame. I was very surprised by
just how good it was then!. All down to a very good MM pre-amp stage, he
spent a lot of time getting that designed right!. Good replay system
Audiolab and ESL63's, and most important of all there wasn't one single
pressing from the UK!. All were from Germany or the USA and specialised
suppliers at that!.


I've no doubt he was also careful to select the sort of music which either
masks the inherent distortions or is 'enhanced' by them.

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Here we go again!


"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
ups.com...


Here's your challenge, Arns. Give us the percentage of newly or
recently-produced media that passed through at least one tube device.
Let's exclude instrument amplification, as that will hugely skew the
numbers up.


Yes, unlike many of the posters here, most professional guitarists I know
actually accept that there is a difference between musical *production*
and
music *reproduction*

Too subtle a concept for many it seems.


Way too subtle for a subintellect like ****R.




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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message




My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is falling
off, and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail off.


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly
likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.


Not in terms of sales percentages.


No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of
19.8% in just three months was a pretty good indicator:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm


OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a
sales percentage for vinyl, and an indicator of an
ongoing transition from one form of digital media to
another form of digital media.


Not my problem!


I think it is, unless you are deliberately
obfuscating/distorting or, as others imply, failing to
read properly or grasp the meaning of my post - my point
was that it is CDs which are disappearing and I provided
evidence.


I reproduced my OP on the topic above, and it doesn't even mention CDs.
Therefore Keith, your attempt to introduce CD sales, given that CDs are a
form of media that I didn't even mention, is an obvious example of a red
herring argument. It's just another one of your an intentional attempt to
mislead the discussion from its origional intent.


AFAIAC and in context, my CD comment was a perfectly valid counter to the
immediately preceding remarks concerning vinyl.


Repeating an intentional distraction doesn't make it less of a distraction.



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are *distorting* again
which, of course, is highly likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing
rapidly.


Where the hell do YOU live?


Keith seems to spend a lot of time in some other universe - one where there
are actually a signficiant number of people who care about tubes, vinyl,
noisy microphones and tinny-sounding speakers.

But I note you do NOT claim vinyl sales have even reached the most
minuscule
percentage of CD sales, or availability.


Letsee, RIAA statistics show that several hundred million CDs were sold last
year, and Keith thinks that they are "disappearing rapidly"?

You've got to wonder what's in Keith's blood besides blood!

It's amazing what you can do with statistics though. An Audio rag recently
claimed that turntable sales in England were greater than CD player sales
last year.


I'm sitting here thinking that the sales of home optical players has
migrated from CD to DVD so fast that there might even be a bit of truth to
this claim.

Even IF true, what they conveniently ignored was the millions of DVD
player,
SACD player, DVDA player and other assorted hybrid player sales, that all
play standard CD disks.


Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow relevant to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market to only
a percent or two.

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" is still a widely
accepted philosophy it seems.


Agreed.


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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Yep it's been happening for 25 years and no sign of
stopping.


My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is falling off,

and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail off.


I'll bet it doesn't, unfortunately.

Vinylista propaganda is more like an indeology than a religion.
Converting
to Vinylism seems to often involve refuting the established claims of
science,


Isn't that just what Religion did too?


Certain religions have done just about anything stupid that you can imagine.

Should we still accept that the sun
and stars revolve around the earth?


Remember that established Science taught that for most of recorded history.

Was Darwin right, or just another heretic like Galileo?


They got more than a few things right.

And how old is the universe in your religion Arny?


Indefinately long.

What about the so called "intelligent design", "debate"?


Nothing I support as Science.

Still let's NOT go down that track in this newsgroup! :-)


I don't think we have any TV evangelists who are saying that their magic
prayer cloth will double the number of molecules of anything you wrap with
it. Do we? ;-)


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Rob" wrote in message
...

I don't think anyone on this NG (or elsewhere, come to that) has the
ability to *prove* the inherent technical superiority of one over the
other.


Sure we do, within the context of audio technology.

It depends on your definition of 'technical',


Check your dictionary.

and the significance of that definition when it comes to the sound. I
think.


Think again.


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Keith G Keith G is offline
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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...
No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are *distorting* again
which, of course, is highly likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing
rapidly.


Where the hell do YOU live?
But I note you do NOT claim vinyl sales have even reached the most
minuscule
percentage of CD sales, or availability.



Why should I make any such claim? - I neither know nor care, but think
about this: If 'vinylists' were as *elitist* as some here would have you
believe, then the smaller that percentage, the better - no?



It's amazing what you can do with statistics though. An Audio rag
recently
claimed that turntable sales in England were greater than CD player
sales
last year.
Even IF true, what they conveniently ignored was the millions of DVD
player,
SACD player, DVDA player and other assorted hybrid player sales, that
all
play standard CD disks.



Factor in the 'iPod effect' and you've answered your own question...


"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" is still a
widely
accepted philosophy it seems.



Facts? That's an intriguing prospect - we get a lot of 'facts' in here
(ukra)....






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Keith G Keith G is offline
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Default Here we go again!


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message



My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is
falling off, and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail
off.

No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly
likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.

Not in terms of sales percentages.

No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of
19.8% in just three months was a pretty good indicator:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm

OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a
sales percentage for vinyl, and an indicator of an
ongoing transition from one form of digital media to
another form of digital media.

Not my problem!

I think it is, unless you are deliberately
obfuscating/distorting or, as others imply, failing to
read properly or grasp the meaning of my post - my point
was that it is CDs which are disappearing and I provided
evidence.

I reproduced my OP on the topic above, and it doesn't even mention
CDs. Therefore Keith, your attempt to introduce CD sales, given that
CDs are a form of media that I didn't even mention, is an obvious
example of a red herring argument. It's just another one of your an
intentional attempt to mislead the discussion from its origional
intent.


AFAIAC and in context, my CD comment was a perfectly valid counter to
the immediately preceding remarks concerning vinyl.


Repeating an intentional distraction doesn't make it less of a
distraction.



Repeating complaints in a UK-centric ng about UK responses to
crossposted US irrelevancies doesn't mean they'll stop either...

Now stop bitching or I'll hijack this thread and turn it into a DAB vs,
DAB+ debate and all you Merkins will get to hear about how Brit radio is
going down the *digital tubes* alongside recorded music and TV
transmissions...



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Keith G Keith G is offline
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are *distorting*
again
which, of course, is highly likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing
rapidly.


Where the hell do YOU live?


Keith seems to spend a lot of time in some other universe - one where
there are actually a signficiant number of people who care about
tubes, vinyl, noisy microphones and tinny-sounding speakers.



Much as it may irk you, I gather there are *millions* of people on this
planet who do some or even all of those things....



But I note you do NOT claim vinyl sales have even reached the most
minuscule
percentage of CD sales, or availability.


Letsee, RIAA statistics show that several hundred million CDs were
sold last year, and Keith thinks that they are "disappearing rapidly"?



No, you got that wrong - I wouldn't know, I merely posted a link to show
that the BBC (if no-one else) thinks they are....




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Keith G Keith G is offline
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Default Here we go again!


"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Rob" wrote in message
...
My take is that they PREFER the so called "euphonic distortions",


Prefer the sound, OK. I think you just have to take a deep breath,
relax, and get over it.


And IF they did, these debates would have finished 25 years ago.
Some people still listen to wax cylinders, without needing to "prove"
they
are better than CD



I don't know a single soul who plays LPs who feels he needs to *prove*
anything....


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Here we go again!


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message



My take is that now that the DJ-driven demand for vinyl is falling
off, and
sales are already dropping preciptiously, the hype will trail off.

No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are
*distorting* again which, of course, is highly
likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing rapidly.

Not in terms of sales percentages.

No? I would have thought a fall in sales revenue of
19.8% in just three months was a pretty good indicator:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6933632.stm

OK Keith, so you can't tell the difference between a
sales percentage for vinyl, and an indicator of an
ongoing transition from one form of digital media to
another form of digital media.

Not my problem!

I think it is, unless you are deliberately
obfuscating/distorting or, as others imply, failing to
read properly or grasp the meaning of my post - my point
was that it is CDs which are disappearing and I provided
evidence.

I reproduced my OP on the topic above, and it doesn't even mention CDs.
Therefore Keith, your attempt to introduce CD sales, given that CDs are
a form of media that I didn't even mention, is an obvious example of a
red herring argument. It's just another one of your an intentional
attempt to mislead the discussion from its origional intent.


AFAIAC and in context, my CD comment was a perfectly valid counter to
the immediately preceding remarks concerning vinyl.


Repeating an intentional distraction doesn't make it less of a
distraction.



Repeating complaints in a UK-centric ng about UK responses to crossposted
US irrelevancies doesn't mean they'll stop either...


I can always tell when you're bleeding pretty badly Keith, because you start
ranting and raving about xenophobic crap like this. Friendly advice: Cut
your losses and run.


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Posts: 17,262
Default Here we go again!


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are *distorting* again
which, of course, is highly likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing
rapidly.


Where the hell do YOU live?


Keith seems to spend a lot of time in some other universe - one where
there are actually a signficiant number of people who care about tubes,
vinyl, noisy microphones and tinny-sounding speakers.



Much as it may irk you, I gather there are *millions* of people on this
planet who do some or even all of those things....



But I note you do NOT claim vinyl sales have even reached the most
minuscule
percentage of CD sales, or availability.


Letsee, RIAA statistics show that several hundred million CDs were sold
last year, and Keith thinks that they are "disappearing rapidly"?



No, you got that wrong - I wouldn't know, I merely posted a link to show
that the BBC (if no-one else) thinks they are....


Every large US news organization seems to have at least one writer that is
their resident Looney. Why should the BBC be any different?


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