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Gray_Wolf Gray_Wolf is offline
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Default How do you personally shop for Hi-Fi speakers?

On 6/16/2017 8:07 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
UnsteadyKen wrote:
Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?
I've been interested in and following audio reproduction and equipment
since the 60's.


A lot of theatre speakers were designed for 16 ohms, in order to reduce the
substantial cable losses between the booth and the speakers. You could order
the Altec 288 horn driver, for instance, in anything from 8 to 24 ohms.

Apart from oddities such as panels, ionophones and electrostatics, the
only consumer loudspeakers I've been aware of with an impedance much
above 8ohms were certain models of the LS3/5A which were available as 11
and 15 ohm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A


It's not a win for consumer speakers since you're never going to see a very
long cable run in that application, and making the higher impedance windings
is more difficult. Consumer speakers are designed to be cheap.

The LS3/5A was never designed as a consumer speaker, but in the end it sure
wound up being successful in that market.
--scott


IIRC there were some JBL D130 speakers that were 16 ohm in the early years.



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John Williamson wrote:
#2. Define "something stupid".

"Among other things, listening to dynamically compressed material at high
volumes for a long continuous period. Up to a couple of minutes should
be okay, an hour may count as being really stupid, leading to the magic
smoke that all power amps contain escaping.

--
Tciao for Now!

John. "

John W:
SHHHHHH!! You're not supposed to use
the term 'dyn_______y com_____ed'on
here! You trigger the nun-bot!


You mean: material with high average
levels and low peak:avg ratio.
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THECKKKKMAAAH! @ tardsRkozicki.net took a huge **** in his diaper
....
SHHHHHH!! You're not supposed to use
the term 'dyn_______y com_____ed'on
here! You trigger the nun-bot!


As you know, the best way to get me to respond to you is to mention me
in your post. Or maybe you don't know. I've explained it to you many
times, in words even a retarded dumb**** can understand, but you're a
very extra-specially retarded cretin, not any ordinary dumb****. I
like how you keep calling me a "bot". I guess you just like to prove
that you don't know what the word means. Another way of proudly waving
your retard flag, maybe. Or maybe you've just got a pup-tent for
me--what a revolting thought! But whatever blows your skirt up, li'l
buddy.

I like it how you're afraid to spell out my user name, as if changing
the spelling somehow changes the magic words that you're so afraid of.
Like when you drop F-bombs, but avoid the taboo by altering the
spelling. It's retarded, but that's who you are!

As for dynamic range compression (another phrase that seems to terrify
your poor little imbecilic self), I have nothing against discussing
it. But you can't discuss it, because you don't even underhand it.
When you get in the saddle of that dead hobby horse, and start
smearing your own **** all over your face, about something that you
still don't (and never will) understand, you'll be called a retarded
dumb****. You should know that by now, but nothing can get through
that block of granite and into your little prune of a brain.

It's also been entertaining watching you prove to anyone that cares
that you're just too stupid to understand speaker impedance. That's
another thing that's been explained to you over and over again, but
you're just not equipped to understand it. you're just too stupid.
Watching the village idiot can be entertaining, and you're the village
idiot around here.

HTH. DSKFHI. FCKWAFA!





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stupid gibbered and drooled ...
#2. Define "something stupid".


It's that retard with the blank look on his face, the one you see in
the mirror. That's the shiny thing on the bathroom wall, not the thing
you **** in and drink from, where you also like to look. FSKH. ESAD.
FCKWAFRDFA.

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On 16/06/2017 10:14 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 16/06/2017 11:46 AM, Geoff wrote:
On 16/06/2017 1:36 PM, wrote:
Geoff wrote: "If your amp says 8 ohms minimum, then that is the lowest
Z you should "

That's what I always thought, and was instructed to
by dealers and other audio people. I guess if 8ohm
speakers become almost impossible to find in say,
10-20 years, I can always connect resistors in-line
to make up for the difference. IE: 4ohm speakrs,
just add minimum 4ohm resistor to the plus side
going to each speaker, to double load to 8ohm per
channel.


This is a terrible idea,


Right, in more ways than one!

because the impedance of the speaker varies a lot
with frequency, and the impedance of that series resistor does not. So now
you have a resistive divider whose ratio changes with frequency, and you will
find that the frequencies where the speaker impedance is low are suddenly
accentuated.


Actually where the speaker impedance is low, the series resistor will
attenuate more than when the speaker impedance is high. (more voltage
dropped across the larger impedance in a series network) Therefore the
frequencies where the speaker impedance is *high* are accentuated Vs
where it is low since the resistor remains constant.



FAR better to simply connect two 4ohm speakers in series on each channel
if absolutely necessary.


This is even worse, because now you have a weird impedance in series with your
speaker. If the two speakers are identical and have identical impedance
curves, then their peaks and dips match to exaggerate one another.


Rubbish, as long as they are identical the response will be the same as
for one, neglecting any *acoustic* comb filtering that may occur
afterwards. All peaks and dips in the impedance curve should be close
enough so the voltage will share equally. And obviously the current is
identical.

However you are right, I did forget to add *identical* speakers in
series. Not some stupid mismatched combination.


Since on
the whole you'll tend to have level dips corresponding with impedance peaks
(admittedly a generalization) this will tend to exaggerate any response
aberrations in the speaker.


A speaker may have a perfectly flat response despite a large variation
in impedance when driven from a low impedance source, such as any modern
amplifier.



The Bose 901 is the finest example of how series drivers can go terribly wrong.


Right, but not for the reason you suggest.



Can't imagine why you wouldn't want (or need)
to replace your (already old) amplifier in 10 or 20 years as well though.


I'm still running the 1961 vintage Citation II as the studio monitor amp.
It sounds good and it's paid for. Occasionally I'll swap it out for something
more modern just to make sure I'm not missing something.


I doubt any JVC amplifier is in the same league however.

Trevor.


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On 16/06/2017 10:20 PM, UnsteadyKen wrote:
Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?
I've been interested in and following audio reproduction and equipment
since the 60's.
Apart from oddities such as panels, ionophones and electrostatics, the
only consumer loudspeakers I've been aware of with an impedance much
above 8ohms were certain models of the LS3/5A which were available as 11
and 15 ohm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A

A Google search for any current product only turns up some specialist
drivers.


JBL once made all their pro drivers available in 8 or 16 ohm versions,
as did a few other companies.

Trevor.





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Trevor wrote: "On 16/06/2017 10:20 PM, UnsteadyKen wrote:
Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?
I've been interested in and following audio reproduction and equipment
since the 60's.
Apart from oddities such as panels, ionophones and electrostatics, the
only consumer loudspeakers I've been aware of with an impedance much
above 8ohms were certain models of the LS3/5A which were available as 11
and 15 ohm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A

A Google search for any current product only turns up some specialist
drivers.


JBL once made all their pro drivers available in 8 or 16 ohm versions,
as did a few other companies.

Trevor. "

So the average speaker impedance IS
dropping over time. (Memo to geoff!)
It is conceivable, that if one would look
beyond their own nose in terms of time,
that in a decade or two most, if not all,
consumer speakers will have impedances
between 3-6ohms. And 8ohm speakers
will be looked at in the same way 16ohms
are, today.
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On 17/06/2017 5:02 AM, gray_wolf wrote:
IIRC there were some JBL D130 speakers that were 16 ohm in the early years.


Many JBL pro drivers up to the 70's/80's were available in both 8 and 16
ohms according to my many catalogues from the era.

Trevor.

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On 6/17/2017 5:49 AM, wrote:
Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?


How long must this go on? STOP, ALREADY!!!!!!!!



--

For a good time, call
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Trevor wrote:

-----------------




The Bose 901 is the finest example of how series drivers can go terribly wrong.


Right, but not for the reason you suggest.



** Heads up required here.

The 9 Bose 4 inch drivers are wired either in 3 groups of 3 OR all nine in series - depend on when manufactued.

I have had some dealings with the contraptions and never ahd reson to think power sharing was an issue.
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Mike Rivers wrote: " Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?

How long must this go on? STOP, ALREADY!!!!!!!! "


Mike: I'm NOT the one who posed that
question. Scroll back upward - I believe
you'll find it was UnsteadyKen who asked
it. And meanwhile, take a chill pill.


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On 17/06/2017 10:49, wrote:


So the average speaker impedance IS
dropping over time. (Memo to geoff!)
It is conceivable, that if one would look
beyond their own nose in terms of time,
that in a decade or two most, if not all,
consumer speakers will have impedances
between 3-6ohms. And 8ohm speakers
will be looked at in the same way 16ohms
are, today.

There have been different speaker impedances for different purposes for
a very long time.

When I was young, radio speakers tended to be 15 Ohms, as there were
problems getting enough current our of a single triode to run anything
lower without larger and more expensive transformers than the budget
allowed. Some top end systems used 3 ohm speakers, as they could afford
larger transformers and push pull triode output stages. At this time, 8
ohm speakers were almost unknown.

Then battery powered transistor radios used 3 ohm speakers to get enough
power out of a 9 volt battery and germanium transistors without using
output transformers. Usually, they had a complementary push pull pair
and a drive transformer to spilt the drive signal. Many used a pair of
identical output transistors with a transformer before and after to turn
them into a push pull pair by inverting the signal on one of them. They
tended to have 15 ohm speakers to reduce the weight of the output
transformer core by reducing the current. If you got half a watt of
power at full volume, you were lucky.

Nowadays, some in car entertainment systems parallel 8 ohm speakers to
make 2 Ohm or less speaker systems to get ridiculous powers out of a 12
volt supply where current is effectively unlimited, using two push-pull
pairs, bridged in antiphase to each other.

Some current makers of huge numbers of small, unexpandable, home systems
use other impedances if it will save them a few cents on the system
cost. If you are making many thousands, a specially wound speaker coil
may be cheaper than a bigger heat sink or power supply.

Then there are and were specialist units which accept 100 volt inputs,
usually via a tapped transformer to vary the power, for wide area
distribution, or 25 volt inputs for use in hazardous areas such as coal
mines and oil refineries.

However, almost all professional PA and monitor speakers are 8 ohm
impedance and have been for a long time, though at the bottom end of the
market, the impedances are checked by the same team that check the rated
output power, and may vary from 15 ohms to 3 ohms depending on the
frequency. In professional gear, the 8 ohm standard is so deeply in
grained it won't be changing in my lifetime. In the same way at the
other end of the chain, I reckon that 600 ohm microphone and signal line
impedances for balanced line professional use will be with us until the
heat death of the universe. Barring guitars, but hey, they are special.
;-)

Now, can we drop this? Thanks in advance.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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John Williamson wrote: "There have been different speaker impedances for different purposes for
a very long time".

Anyone should know that. My
concern specifically is with a
trend I perceive, real or not,
in impedances among
CONSUMER speakers, not
professional ones, PA, etc.

I'd be willing to bet money that
in 10-20 years the average
CONSUMER speaker, for use
in the HOME, will have a much
lower impedance than they
do presently. I already see it,
in how many 6, 5, 4, 3, and even
2!-ohm speakers I see where
I work.
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thekma @ retards.com took his morning dump on usenet ...
John Williamson wrote: "There have been different speaker impedances
for different purposes for
a very long time".

Anyone should know that. My concern specifically is


Your "concern" is the fact that you have no idea what you're talking
about. Posters with some knowledge keep trying to school you, but you
are impervious to schooling. You're just too ****ing stupid. You keep
gibbering about your obsessions, and one of your obsessions is to put
your learning disabilities on display, and to make them the main
subject of discussion in a newsgroup originally intended for
discussions of audio production. Yes, everyone knows that you have an
IQ that you can count on your fingers and toes, and your personality
is even more revolting than that. Everyone knows that you will never,
ever, understand how speaker impedance works. You won't shut the ****
up about it, because your head is jammed so tightly into your rectal
sphincter.

I already see it, in how many 6, 5, 4, 3, and even 2!-ohm speakers I
see where I work.


Yes, that confirms that you don't get it. It's as if you haven't read
a single word from the poor deluded souls that think you can
understand. Besides, cast-off **** speakers at the used junk store
where they hire mental defectives like you to do busy-work are hardly
representative of the real world.

FCKWAFR. EDFYT!


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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news
you can design and build your own enclosure, however.


No, theckhhhmaaah cannot design and build his own enclosure. He's too
stupid.



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Mike Rivers wrote: "On 6/17/2017 9:54 AM, wrote:

" My concern specifically is with a trend I
perceive, real or not


It's not real. Your perception is just your imagination going wild. Have
a cup of tea, or pet your dog. "

So I'm just imagining that all those bookshelf,
and some floorstanding, speakers say '6ohm'
or lower on the backs. Thank you for that
therapy session, helped me a lot!


"I'll trade bets with you. In 10-20 years, nobody at the consumer level
will care about impedance or even know what it means. "

They don't know or care now! Which is pretty
sad, given that it's basic info, like knowing
how many cylinders are under the hood of
ones daily driver.


"Loudspeakers will have evolved so that all of them will have integrated
power amplifiers."

Another trend I don't like. I'druther
central amplification with passive
speakers.


"Furthermore, analog audio inputs will disappear like the
headphone jack on an iPhone. "

Reinventing the wheel. Dumb.


"If your JVC amplifier is still working then (and it probably will
be, if you don't connect 3 ohm speakers and run it at house-filling
volume) you will have difficulty finding a loudspeaker as we know
it today. You may be able to find drivers and you can design and
build your own enclosure, however. "

Or install replacement drivers into
the existing cabinets.
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Thekma the Retard @ ****tard.com shat in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote: "On 6/17/2017 9:54 AM, wrote:

" My concern specifically is with a trend I
perceive, real or not


It's not real. Your perception is just your imagination going wild.
Have
a cup of tea, or pet your dog. "

So I'm just imagining that all those bookshelf,
and some floorstanding, speakers say '6ohm'
or lower on the backs. Thank you for that
therapy session, helped me a lot!


No, it obviously went right over your basaltic head, and you didn't
understand at all. Your abject stupidy did not succumb to any imagined
"therapy".

People that understand audio keep trying to explain to you, but you
steadfastly maintain that you, the retarded village idiot, know better
than people who actually know what they're talking about. You just
have to wave your retard flag, which seems to consist of a wad of used
bumf.


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None wrote:

-----------------



Your "concern" is the fact that you have no idea what you're talking
about. Posters with some knowledge keep trying to school you, but you
are impervious to schooling. You're just too ****ing stupid. You keep
gibbering about your obsessions, and one of your obsessions is to put
your learning disabilities on display, and to make them the main
subject of discussion in a newsgroup originally intended for
discussions of audio production. Yes, everyone knows that you have an
IQ that you can count on your fingers and toes, and your personality
is even more revolting than that. Everyone knows that you will never,
ever, understand how speaker impedance works. You won't shut the ****
up about it, because your head is jammed so tightly into your rectal
sphincter.




** Very eloquently put, even better than I usually manage myself.

How sad such valid insights are doomed to be pearls wasted on swine.

Now that usenet is nothing but a pig sty.




..... Phil


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John Williamson wrote: "
You seem not to know the difference between professional and consumer
audio, or you wouldn't be posting in a professinal group about home audio. "


With all due respect, I'm not the one
who started this thread about 'Hi-Fi
speakers.' I'm just weighing in.

So do not ASSume what I do or do
not know the difference between.

Thank you.


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thekma @ dumb****.org spewed in message
...
So do not ASSume what I do or do
not know the difference between.


Everyone knows that you're an ass, and you've proven that you don't
know a damn thing.

Thank you.


**** you, retard. IFSKN. FCLWAD. FJKS.

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On 6/17/2017 4:40 AM, Trevor wrote:
On 16/06/2017 10:20 PM, UnsteadyKen wrote:
Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?
I've been interested in and following audio reproduction and equipment
since the 60's.
Apart from oddities such as panels, ionophones and electrostatics, the
only consumer loudspeakers I've been aware of with an impedance much
above 8ohms were certain models of the LS3/5A which were available as 11
and 15 ohm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A

A Google search for any current product only turns up some specialist
drivers.


JBL once made all their pro drivers available in 8 or 16 ohm versions, as did a
few other companies.

Trevor.


I was browsing some old JBL vintage sites and I noticed they had a number of 32
ohm speakers available way back when.




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On 18/06/2017 12:44 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/17/2017 9:54 AM, wrote:
My concern specifically is with a trend I
perceive, real or not


It's not real. Your perception is just your imagination going wild. Have
a cup of tea, or pet your dog.

I'd be willing to bet money that in 10-20 years the average CONSUMER
speaker, for use in the HOME, will have a much lower impedance than
they do presently.


I'll trade bets with you. In 10-20 years, nobody at the consumer level
will care about impedance or even know what it means. Loudspeakers will
have evolved so that all of them will have integrated power amplifiers.
Furthermore, analog audio inputs will disappear like the headphone jack
on an iPhone. If your JVC amplifier is still working then (and it
probably will be, if you don't connect 3 ohm speakers and run it at
house-filling volume) you will have difficulty finding a loudspeaker as
we know it today. You may be able to find drivers and you can design and
build your own enclosure, however.


Thekma being able to "design and build" his own enclosure, now that's a
laugh! :-)
And I'm not so sure his JVC will last that long anyway. He wouldn't be
able to fix it, and he'll find out it is not economic to get someone
else to fix it for him when caps, pots etc finally need replacing, even
if he doesn't blow it up first.

Trevor.



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On 18/06/2017 7:40 PM, gray_wolf wrote:
On 6/17/2017 4:40 AM, Trevor wrote:
On 16/06/2017 10:20 PM, UnsteadyKen wrote:
Have you ever seen a 16 ohm loudspeaker?
I've been interested in and following audio reproduction and equipment
since the 60's.
Apart from oddities such as panels, ionophones and electrostatics, the
only consumer loudspeakers I've been aware of with an impedance much
above 8ohms were certain models of the LS3/5A which were available as 11
and 15 ohm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A

A Google search for any current product only turns up some specialist
drivers.


JBL once made all their pro drivers available in 8 or 16 ohm versions,
as did a few other companies.


I was browsing some old JBL vintage sites and I noticed they had a
number of 32 ohm speakers available way back when.


Yes, I think they were aimed specifically at the theatre sound market to
reduce cable losses. JBL and Altec being major players in that market.

Trevor.



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Trevor wrote: "On 18/06/2017 7:40 PM, gray_wolf wrote:
I was browsing some old JBL vintage sites and I noticed they had a
number of 32 ohm speakers available way back when.


Yes, I think they were aimed specifically at the theatre sound market to
reduce cable losses. JBL and Altec being major players in that market.

Trevor. "

The That's another thing I don't get.
HOW does a HIGH-impedance speaker
"reduce cable losses" in long runs like
in a movie theatre?? I'd think you'd want
efficient, low impedance speakers in
a huge space like that.
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On 19/06/2017 11:25, wrote:
Trevor wrote: "On 18/06/2017 7:40 PM, gray_wolf wrote:
I was browsing some old JBL vintage sites and I noticed they had a
number of 32 ohm speakers available way back when.


Yes, I think they were aimed specifically at the theatre sound market to
reduce cable losses. JBL and Altec being major players in that market.

Trevor. "

The That's another thing I don't get.
HOW does a HIGH-impedance speaker
"reduce cable losses" in long runs like
in a movie theatre?? I'd think you'd want
efficient, low impedance speakers in
a huge space like that.

Again, you prove your almost complete lack of knowledge. The lower the
speaker impedance, the higher the drive current for a given power, and
the more power you lose in the speaker cables, which can be calculated
by using Ohm's law.

Also, speaker efficiency has very little connection to speaker impedance
in any case, and in cinemas, the main control over efficiency is the way
the drive unit is acoustically coupled and matched to the horn.

The alternative is to make the speaker cables *much* heavier, which
costs a fortune on long runs. The technology at the time did not permit
the amplifiers to be located behind the screen with the speakers, and
the alternative of using 100 volt line amplifiers and transformers to
match the speakers to the line is inefficient and is not good for audio
quality.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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thekma @ ****ing-idiot.net wrote in message
...
The That's another thing I don't get.


The list of things you "don't get" is endless. As usual, as the
village idiot, you want the topic of discussion to be your utter
failure to understand. Your inability to learn, your brain damage, and
the fact that you have your head deep in your rectum, are the only
things you want to discuss. You're a retarded dumb****, and you are
incapable of understanding how speaker impedance works. You're simply
too stupid. JSFH. TFS FCKWAFA!




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"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 19/06/2017 11:25, wrote:

The That's another thing I don't get.

Again, you prove your almost complete lack of knowledge.


Yes, Theckmaaah proves that he's a retarded dumb****, and a ****ing
asshole, too. Nothing more than a skidmark.


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John Williamson wrote: "Again, you prove your almost complete lack of knowledge. The lower the
speaker impedance, the higher the drive current for a given power, and
the more power you lose in the speaker cables, which can be calculated
by using Ohm's law. "

So if I'm reading you right, the principle is that
lower impedance speakers 'draw more current'
from an amp, and potentially, more current than
a given amp can provide? Would this be akin
to a bicyclist pedaling a bicycle with the rear
wheels jacked off the ground?


"Also, speaker efficiency has very little connection to speaker impedance
in any case, and in cinemas, the main control over efficiency is the way
the drive unit is acoustically coupled and matched to the horn. "

Ok, so "efficiency" was a bad choice of words
on my part. My mind just logically assumed
that lower impedance speakers were more
efficient to drive. That's where I was going with
that.


"The alternative is to make the speaker cables *much* heavier, which
costs a fortune on long runs. The technology at the time did not permit
the amplifiers to be located behind the screen with the speakers, and
the alternative of using 100 volt line amplifiers and transformers to
match the speakers to the line is inefficient and is not good for audio
quality. "
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This is a terrible idea, because the impedance of the speaker varies a lot
with frequency, and the impedance of that series resistor does not. So now
you have a resistive divider whose ratio changes with frequency, and you will
find that the frequencies where the speaker impedance is low are suddenly
accentuated.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I think that should be attenuated.

m


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John Williamson wrote: "I have explained things in terms I would have understood when I was eleven years old, and just starting to study physics. There is no
simpler way to explain the situation than the differing ways I have put
it many times, trying to get through your stubbornly sticky ignorance. "

I never had the capacity to understand
speaker resistance, at eleven or now.

"I'm almost tempted to believe you actually understand what I am talking
abut and you are trolling for a reaction. "

Not at all. With a straight face I'm telling
you John: I DON'T get it. I have no gain
nor the patience to "troll" you or anybody.

So I will just continue to go by
the impedance numbers listed
on the backs of amps/receivers
and speakers, read the manuals,
and just follow the rules. Not do
anything stupid, like hook up
4 ohm speakers to an amp that
says "4-8ohms" on the back.
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Meant to say "8-16ohms" on the back.

F'king NUMBERS!!!
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