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#1
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Hi all,
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the color bars section and things like that. Any help? |
#2
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interested in audio fo video papers.
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the color bars section and things like that. Any help? Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine your question. There are at least 3 stages of production. Are you talking about levels: 1) during the initial recording, or 2) during editing onto the finished product, or 3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to the viewer. The answer will be very different for each of these three cases. Mark |
#3
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Il 20/11/2011 14.40, MarkK ha scritto:
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the color bars section and things like that. Any help? Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine your question. There are at least 3 stages of production. Are you talking about levels: 1) during the initial recording, or 2) during editing onto the finished product, or 3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to the viewer. The answer will be very different for each of these three cases. Mark thanks, i'm interested in the final step in producing a video with good levels to be fully compatible with broadcast with a little or no change to be made. A kind of premastering step in audio! I need do know clearly the relationships, if any, between the audio program and the 1khz reference tone. I would like to know aspects about your point 2 and 3! regards alex |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
alex wrote:
Il 20/11/2011 14.40, MarkK ha scritto: I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the color bars section and things like that. Any help? Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine your question. There are at least 3 stages of production. Are you talking about levels: 1) during the initial recording, or 2) during editing onto the finished product, or 3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to the viewer. The answer will be very different for each of these three cases. Mark thanks, i'm interested in the final step in producing a video with good levels to be fully compatible with broadcast with a little or no change to be made. A kind of premastering step in audio! I need do know clearly the relationships, if any, between the audio program and the 1khz reference tone. I would like to know aspects about your point 2 and 3! regards alex Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital Zero for 1 KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for 38+ years of TV sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the Studio, and Live on Air. -- ~ Roy "If you notice the sound, it's wrong!" |
#5
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Il 20/11/2011 18.04, Roy W. Rising ha scritto:
wrote: Il 20/11/2011 14.40, MarkK ha scritto: I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the color bars section and things like that. Any help? Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine your question. There are at least 3 stages of production. Are you talking about levels: 1) during the initial recording, or 2) during editing onto the finished product, or 3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to the viewer. The answer will be very different for each of these three cases. Mark thanks, i'm interested in the final step in producing a video with good levels to be fully compatible with broadcast with a little or no change to be made. A kind of premastering step in audio! I need do know clearly the relationships, if any, between the audio program and the 1khz reference tone. I would like to know aspects about your point 2 and 3! regards alex Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital Zero for 1 KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for 38+ years of TV sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the Studio, and Live on Air. thanks for the answer, Roy This only prevents overs but doesn't say anything about loudness. Even following this rule i'm still able to produce a very wide loudness range and the program may appear too loud or too weak compared to other tapes. What i need is to understand where is the common "average" loudness for a soundtrack and how to achieve it. I think that should be a relationship between the program loudness and the 1kHz tone level, otherwise will be pretty stupid to put the same -20 tone on every digital video tape which is completely unrelated with the real sound on the track. alex |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
alex wrote:
What i need is to understand where is the common "average" loudness for a soundtrack and how to achieve it. I think that should be a relationship between the program loudness and the 1kHz tone level, otherwise will be pretty stupid to put the same -20 tone on every digital video tape which is completely unrelated with the real sound on the track. The spectral and dynamic content of program material varies enough that no "set 'n' forget" concept of how to handle the dynamic range will work. This is where the experience of one like Roy Rising comes into play. You get that experience by doing the work and listening to the result, and then, for a good long while, doing the work again, and listening again until it starts coming out the way you want it. Further, in the contemporary digital world of network or other audio and video distribution, the expectation of "no more processing, nothing will be done to if after it leaves my hand" is unrealistic. Ain't gonna happen. Processing is built right into the chain. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#7
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Il 21/11/2011 1.04, Richard Webb ha scritto:
On Sun 2011-Nov-20 12:04, Roy W. Rising writes: snip Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital Zero for 1 KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for 38+ years of TV sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the Studio, and Live on Air. That's always my modus operandi, 0vu = -20 works for me. For some things such as heavy rock, etc. where I'd done the recording i might bump it up to 0vu=-18 or even =-12, for a couple of projects, but mostly I found 0vu=-20 worked well and gave anybody downstream plenty of room. Now remember that old blind man had to do his calibration, and work off vu metering that's audible, not visible. My "house standard" was normally 0vu=-20 for multi track, maybe mixing as I said I might bump it up a bit, but that depended on the project and waht I expected to happen to it after it left my hands. I aws trying to figure this all out when I went digital from the standpoint of one who had accessible analog vu capability, and had it for years, but no ideas, and no input from elsewhere as to how to get access to digital metering. Hence setting a house standard and sticking with it was very important to my workflow. This meant occasionally bringing in pair of eyes that worked, generate some 1 khz test tone, make sure our calibration was still good, then keep on working. IT's worked for me in a variety of environments over the years and I've never found a reason I should change that. Regards, Richard ... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. hi richard, i don't mean music video, of course, but i want to set levels so that a little or no adjustment are needed to make the program sound "average" in level compared with other similar material. Here i'm assuming that there's a standard! the tone relates to a certain level of the program or simply to a maximum allowable. I noticed almost all the digital video tape i saw, (digital betacam and hdcam) have a -20dB tone in the leading part but i'm almost sure they are dBFS. Then the program loudness varies a lot from tape to tape and the operator still has to figure out which is the correct broadcast volume setting for each of them. Here comes my question. There's a standard for dialogues, then for fx and for music? There's a level setting that relies to the 1kHz tone to allow everybody to quickly set the playback level for every tape? regards alex |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
alex wrote:
This only prevents overs but doesn't say anything about loudness. Even following this rule i'm still able to produce a very wide loudness range and the program may appear too loud or too weak compared to other tapes. There is in fact now a European broadcast standard, EBU-R128 which tries to address this. Before EBU-R128 there was only a standard for levels, not one for loudness. Note that this is only for broadcast use and if you're delivering an AC-3 mix to Dolby Digital specs, there are some published DD standards. The problem, though, is that nobody ever follows them so they don't really do any good because you are constantly competing with people whose mixes are too loud. What i need is to understand where is the common "average" loudness for a soundtrack and how to achieve it. My advisor, gus baird, used to have a ten-step "problem difficulty" scale where a 1 was a question that an undergrad should be able to answer without thinking and a 9 was worthy of a Nobel prize. The question you have asked is at least a 7, I think. And the reason it's a 7 is because there does not seem to be any common average overall, although there might be one in a single facility or network. I think that should be a relationship between the program loudness and the 1kHz tone level, otherwise will be pretty stupid to put the same -20 tone on every digital video tape which is completely unrelated with the real sound on the track. The 1KC tone is there to make sure you don't clip anything, it's not there to make sure that the perceived loudness is the same. In the old days, there was an control operator at the transmitter who rode the gain to keep perceived loudness about even. This does not happen any longer. On top of this, people making commercials always want to be louder than the programs, and the people making the programs want to be loud enough that the commercials don't blast viewers during the breaks. In theory EBU R-128 will help this. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
On Sun 2011-Nov-20 12:04, Roy W. Rising writes:
snip Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital Zero for 1 KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for 38+ years of TV sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the Studio, and Live on Air. That's always my modus operandi, 0vu = -20 works for me. For some things such as heavy rock, etc. where I'd done the recording i might bump it up to 0vu=-18 or even =-12, for a couple of projects, but mostly I found 0vu=-20 worked well and gave anybody downstream plenty of room. Now remember that old blind man had to do his calibration, and work off vu metering that's audible, not visible. My "house standard" was normally 0vu=-20 for multi track, maybe mixing as I said I might bump it up a bit, but that depended on the project and waht I expected to happen to it after it left my hands. I aws trying to figure this all out when I went digital from the standpoint of one who had accessible analog vu capability, and had it for years, but no ideas, and no input from elsewhere as to how to get access to digital metering. Hence setting a house standard and sticking with it was very important to my workflow. This meant occasionally bringing in pair of eyes that worked, generate some 1 khz test tone, make sure our calibration was still good, then keep on working. IT's worked for me in a variety of environments over the years and I've never found a reason I should change that. Regards, Richard .... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Il 21/11/2011 0.54, Scott Dorsey ha scritto:
thanks scott, The 1KC tone is there to make sure you don't clip anything, it's not there to make sure that the perceived loudness is the same. In the old days, there was an control operator at the transmitter who rode the gain to keep perceived loudness about even. This does not happen any longer. On top of this, people making commercials always want to be louder than the programs, and the people making the programs want to be loud enough that the commercials don't blast viewers during the breaks. In theory EBU R-128 will help this. --scott i found a -20 tone on the 95% of the digital video tapes i saw (more than 200 in the last few months...). SO why put that (reference!) tone on tape nowadays, if: 1) there are no relationship with the real level; 2) -20 on digital domain means -20 on every possible player machine, so we have no need to further describe that level; A tv guy, once, told me that the maximum RMS value should not exceed -10dB (i was working on a commercial). In the fact, working for a film festival where most of the material was issued in form of digital betacam and hdcam, there's no good way to discover the right playback level setting other than examine the whole tape. The problem is that there's no indication on where is the loudest part, so the pojectionist have to discover it using the most time consuming method! strang that no refernce level is issued! alex |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
alex wrote:
i found a -20 tone on the 95% of the digital video tapes i saw (more than 200 in the last few months...). SO why put that (reference!) tone on tape nowadays, if: 1) there are no relationship with the real level; 2) -20 on digital domain means -20 on every possible player machine, so we have no need to further describe that level; In the old days, you put the tone at "nominal level" on the analogue tape, which was where the meters read zero. When digital came along, different houses put the "nominal level" at different digital peak levels. Some folks set the 0dB tone at -15dBFS, some put it at -20 or -25dBFS. That level is just there to warn the operator about where the levels are going to fall. A tv guy, once, told me that the maximum RMS value should not exceed -10dB (i was working on a commercial). -10dB-what? -10dBFS? That would seem a bit high to me... you would probably have to compress a good bit to get a dialogue track up to -10dBFS averages without the peak going over 0dBFS. But it's certainly not out of the question. In the fact, working for a film festival where most of the material was issued in form of digital betacam and hdcam, there's no good way to discover the right playback level setting other than examine the whole tape. The problem is that there's no indication on where is the loudest part, so the pojectionist have to discover it using the most time consuming method! strang that no refernce level is issued! Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall. Unfortunately, lots of people are sloppy and don't, and the only solution is for the projectionist to ride the gains by hand. Which is, after all, his job. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall. OP, you may want to start with this http://www.digido.com/level-practice...-k-system.html Mark |
#13
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interested in audio fo video papers.
On Sun 2011-Nov-20 16:58, hank alrich writes:
The spectral and dynamic content of program material varies enough that no "set 'n' forget" concept of how to handle the dynamic range will work. True, and whether I'm doing spoken word stuff, a jingle or music that's my house standard, 0vu = -20dbfs. IF it's a jingle or something its average level is hotter, but that allows me to know where the limits are. This is where the experience of one like Roy Rising comes into play. You get that experience by doing the work and listening to the result, and then, for a good long while, doing the work again, and listening again until it starts coming out the way you want it. True, I"ve been doing this for a few decades now, and though I may not have the major network or major label tics on the resume some of these folks such as ROy have it's the use fo the ears that help out the most to get this done. Further, in the contemporary digital world of network or other audio and video distribution, the expectation of "no more processing, nothing will be done to if after it leaves my hand" is unrealistic. Ain't gonna happen. Processing is built right into the chain. This is true also, but my goal is to make it listenable even if it is heard unadulterated by further processing. That's why I have faders or other level controls available to me, etc. I may use compression if it's called for, or I just may manipulate it as it's going down, depends on the source material, etc. ONe of the best ways of putting it is ROy RIsing's credo "if you notice the sound, it's wrong." Also note Scott Dorsey's answer to you, no formulaic solution, it's your ears. YOu ahve to use them. Not meaning to be a smart aleck or anything else, it's just the truth of the matter. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#14
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interested in audio fo video papers.
In '93 i worked on a soundtrack for a short 35mm movie. i remember the
man at the film sound processing plant (international recording in Rome), analyzing the level of my dat, correct the gain of the analogue film magnetic recorder to reflect the very strict allowance of the optical device used to impress the sound on the film. The man told me that there was a relationship with the tone, and other than syncing purpuse, the 35mm magnetic film was used to "normalize" the sound to avoid peaks dangerous for the optical device. They still used an old western electric bulb which was out of production by decades. The level of the tone on the magnetic film had an "exact" relationship with the input level of the optical device. The "optical" operator just played the tone and adjusted the level consequentially. Il 21/11/2011 2.54, Scott Dorsey ha scritto: Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall. Unfortunately, lots of people are sloppy and don't, and the only solution is for the projectionist to ride the gains by hand. Which is, after all, his job. No, most of them are documentary films, with stereo sound or, sometimes, dolby prologic. The use of dolby E is very rare and we are not equipped to decode it. thanks for the advice, scott. So what i have to do is valuate the level by hear with the help of a standard VU meter or K20 (or 14) system where the zero reading will equal to 83 dB in the control room. In the case i use the k20 system, is ok to mix the dialogues around 0dB on that scale and using the extra headroom for louder sound effects? Doing this and putting a -20 tone (reading 0 on that scale), will tell the operator where is the expected dialogs level. So he can manage to set the theatre volume to obtain 83dB with the tone, and the dialogs will follow. Correct? and if K14 is used, is better to set the tone to -14? Appear that, as opposite on what happened with 35mm film sound, the tone will tell us something about the dialogs levels, instead being related to the max VU program peak level? Is this correct? thanks alex |
#15
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interested in audio fo video papers.
Il 21/11/2011 3.26, MarkK ha scritto:
OP, you may want to start with this http://www.digido.com/level-practice...-k-system.html Mark thanks Mark, i already know this whole thing about the 83dB and the k systems, but i wanted to know the exact relationship, if any, between tone and real levels. This because i noticed a lot of leading tones completely unrealated to the real audio level of the video... alex |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
alex wrote:
i already know this whole thing about the 83dB and the k systems, but i wanted to know the exact relationship, if any, between tone and real levels. This because i noticed a lot of leading tones completely unrealated to the real audio level of the video... Average dialogue levels should be at about the reference level, on an average-reading meter like a VU meter. Beyond that is anyone's guess. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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interested in audio fo video papers.
alex wrote:
In '93 i worked on a soundtrack for a short 35mm movie. i remember the man at the film sound processing plant (international recording in Rome), analyzing the level of my dat, correct the gain of the analogue film magnetic recorder to reflect the very strict allowance of the optical device used to impress the sound on the film. Right. He's riding the gain on the fly, to keep perceived and recorded levels correct. That's an important part of what audio engineering is all about. The man told me that there was a relationship with the tone, and other than syncing purpuse, the 35mm magnetic film was used to "normalize" the sound to avoid peaks dangerous for the optical device. They still used an old western electric bulb which was out of production by decades. The level of the tone on the magnetic film had an "exact" relationship with the input level of the optical device. The "optical" operator just played the tone and adjusted the level consequentially. Well, here's the thing. The light valve, much like digital systems, cares about peak levels rather than average levels, BUT the problem is that the level that it fully opens or closes at changes with frequency somewhat. So, you record the tone with a given average level, and since it's a known waveform, you ALSO know the peak level for it. Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall. Unfortunately, lots of people are sloppy and don't, and the only solution is for the projectionist to ride the gains by hand. Which is, after all, his job. No, most of them are documentary films, with stereo sound or, sometimes, dolby prologic. The use of dolby E is very rare and we are not equipped to decode it. Dolby E basically exists to solve a lot of these problems. Part of the issue is that many people are working with measurements designed in the analogue world, but are living in the digital world. Part of the issue is that some meters are designed to read peak levels or modulation levels, while other meters (like VU and the EBU recommendation mentioned earlier) are intended to estimate perceived loudness, and people use the wrong meter for the job. And so of course the end solution turns into having a man adjust a knob. thanks for the advice, scott. So what i have to do is valuate the level by hear with the help of a standard VU meter or K20 (or 14) system where the zero reading will equal to 83 dB in the control room. Right, but THEN how do you match that to a given modulation level on your tape or to a given dBFS value on the digital file? In the case i use the k20 system, is ok to mix the dialogues around 0dB on that scale and using the extra headroom for louder sound effects? Doing this and putting a -20 tone (reading 0 on that scale), will tell the operator where is the expected dialogs level. So he can manage to set the theatre volume to obtain 83dB with the tone, and the dialogs will follow. Correct? and if K14 is used, is better to set the tone to -14? Yes, BUT you soon run into problems with running out of headroom, because you can't go above 0dBFS at all. If your sound effects have spiky waveforms you may have to limit them severely to get them loud enough. Appear that, as opposite on what happened with 35mm film sound, the tone will tell us something about the dialogs levels, instead being related to the max VU program peak level? Is this correct? Right, because everybody knows where the peak level is... it's a universal scale that doesn't drift in the digital world. So there is no need for another indication of maximum level. BUT..... in the analogue world there is no abrupt peak saturation... even with that light valve there's sort of a nonlinear range right before it opens of closes completely. With analogue tape or magfilm you may have a range of as much as 10db where the system sounds funny but hasn't clipped completely yet. In the digital world, it is either fine or it is not, there is no partway. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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