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alex alex is offline
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Hi all,
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video
soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a
standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms
of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the
color bars section and things like that.


Any help?
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MarkK MarkK is offline
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I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video
soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a
standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms
of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the
color bars section and things like that.


Any help?


Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine your
question.

There are at least 3 stages of production.

Are you talking about levels:

1) during the initial recording, or
2) during editing onto the finished product, or
3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to the
viewer.

The answer will be very different for each of these three cases.

Mark





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Il 20/11/2011 14.40, MarkK ha scritto:
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video
soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve a
standard product, not too different souding from the average, in terms
of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz tone in the
color bars section and things like that.


Any help?


Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine your
question.

There are at least 3 stages of production.

Are you talking about levels:

1) during the initial recording, or
2) during editing onto the finished product, or
3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to the
viewer.

The answer will be very different for each of these three cases.

Mark





thanks, i'm interested in the final step in producing a video with good
levels to be fully compatible with broadcast with a little or no change
to be made.

A kind of premastering step in audio!
I need do know clearly the relationships, if any, between the audio
program and the 1khz reference tone.

I would like to know aspects about your point 2 and 3!

regards alex
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Roy W. Rising[_2_] Roy W. Rising[_2_] is offline
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alex wrote:
Il 20/11/2011 14.40, MarkK ha scritto:
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video
soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve
a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in
terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz
tone in the color bars section and things like that.


Any help?


Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine
your question.

There are at least 3 stages of production.

Are you talking about levels:

1) during the initial recording, or
2) during editing onto the finished product, or
3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to
the viewer.

The answer will be very different for each of these three cases.

Mark





thanks, i'm interested in the final step in producing a video with good
levels to be fully compatible with broadcast with a little or no change
to be made.

A kind of premastering step in audio!
I need do know clearly the relationships, if any, between the audio
program and the 1khz reference tone.

I would like to know aspects about your point 2 and 3!

regards alex


Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital Zero for 1
KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for 38+ years of TV
sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the Studio, and Live on Air.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"
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Il 20/11/2011 18.04, Roy W. Rising ha scritto:
wrote:
Il 20/11/2011 14.40, MarkK ha scritto:
I'm looking for a set of rule of thumb helping me to realize a video
soundtracks. I'm mostly interested in LEVEL rules in order to achieve
a standard product, not too different souding from the average, in
terms of loudness. How the movie sound level do relate to the 1kHz
tone in the color bars section and things like that.


Any help?

Alex, I would say before you get a useable answer, you need to refine
your question.

There are at least 3 stages of production.

Are you talking about levels:

1) during the initial recording, or
2) during editing onto the finished product, or
3) when the finished product is transmitted over the air or cable to
the viewer.

The answer will be very different for each of these three cases.

Mark





thanks, i'm interested in the final step in producing a video with good
levels to be fully compatible with broadcast with a little or no change
to be made.

A kind of premastering step in audio!
I need do know clearly the relationships, if any, between the audio
program and the 1khz reference tone.

I would like to know aspects about your point 2 and 3!

regards alex


Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital Zero for 1
KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for 38+ years of TV
sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the Studio, and Live on Air.

thanks for the answer, Roy

This only prevents overs but doesn't say anything about loudness.
Even following this rule i'm still able to produce a very wide loudness
range and the program may appear too loud or too weak compared to other
tapes.
What i need is to understand where is the common "average" loudness for
a soundtrack and how to achieve it.
I think that should be a relationship between the program loudness and
the 1kHz tone level, otherwise will be pretty stupid to put the same -20
tone on every digital video tape which is completely unrelated with the
real sound on the track.

alex






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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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alex wrote:

What i need is to understand where is the common "average" loudness for
a soundtrack and how to achieve it.
I think that should be a relationship between the program loudness and
the 1kHz tone level, otherwise will be pretty stupid to put the same -20
tone on every digital video tape which is completely unrelated with the
real sound on the track.


The spectral and dynamic content of program material varies enough that
no "set 'n' forget" concept of how to handle the dynamic range will
work.

This is where the experience of one like Roy Rising comes into play. You
get that experience by doing the work and listening to the result, and
then, for a good long while, doing the work again, and listening again
until it starts coming out the way you want it.

Further, in the contemporary digital world of network or other audio and
video distribution, the expectation of "no more processing, nothing will
be done to if after it leaves my hand" is unrealistic. Ain't gonna
happen. Processing is built right into the chain.


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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alex alex is offline
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Il 21/11/2011 1.04, Richard Webb ha scritto:
On Sun 2011-Nov-20 12:04, Roy W. Rising writes:
snip

Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital
Zero for 1 KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for
38+ years of TV sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the
Studio, and Live on Air.


That's always my modus operandi, 0vu = -20 works for me.
For some things such as heavy rock, etc. where I'd done the
recording i might bump it up to 0vu=-18 or even =-12, for a
couple of projects, but mostly I found 0vu=-20 worked well
and gave anybody downstream plenty of room.

Now remember that old blind man had to do his calibration,
and work off vu metering that's audible, not visible. My
"house standard" was normally 0vu=-20 for multi track, maybe mixing as I said I might bump it up a bit, but that depended on the project and waht I expected to happen to it after it
left my hands. I aws trying to figure this all out when I
went digital from the standpoint of one who had accessible
analog vu capability, and had it for years, but no ideas,
and no input from elsewhere as to how to get access to
digital metering. Hence setting a house standard and
sticking with it was very important to my workflow.

This meant occasionally bringing in pair of eyes that
worked, generate some 1 khz test tone, make sure our
calibration was still good, then keep on working.

IT's worked for me in a variety of environments over the
years and I've never found a reason I should change that.


Regards,
Richard
... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

hi richard,
i don't mean music video, of course, but i want to set levels so that a
little or no adjustment are needed to make the program sound "average"
in level compared with other similar material. Here i'm assuming that
there's a standard! the tone relates to a certain level of the program
or simply to a maximum allowable. I noticed almost all the digital video
tape i saw, (digital betacam and hdcam) have a -20dB tone in the leading
part but i'm almost sure they are dBFS. Then the program loudness varies
a lot from tape to tape and the operator still has to figure out which
is the correct broadcast volume setting for each of them.
Here comes my question. There's a standard for dialogues, then for fx
and for music? There's a level setting that relies to the 1kHz tone to
allow everybody to quickly set the playback level for every tape?

regards
alex
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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alex wrote:

This only prevents overs but doesn't say anything about loudness.
Even following this rule i'm still able to produce a very wide loudness
range and the program may appear too loud or too weak compared to other
tapes.


There is in fact now a European broadcast standard, EBU-R128 which tries
to address this. Before EBU-R128 there was only a standard for levels,
not one for loudness.

Note that this is only for broadcast use and if you're delivering an
AC-3 mix to Dolby Digital specs, there are some published DD standards.
The problem, though, is that nobody ever follows them so they don't really
do any good because you are constantly competing with people whose mixes
are too loud.

What i need is to understand where is the common "average" loudness for
a soundtrack and how to achieve it.


My advisor, gus baird, used to have a ten-step "problem difficulty" scale
where a 1 was a question that an undergrad should be able to answer without
thinking and a 9 was worthy of a Nobel prize. The question you have asked
is at least a 7, I think. And the reason it's a 7 is because there does
not seem to be any common average overall, although there might be one in
a single facility or network.

I think that should be a relationship between the program loudness and
the 1kHz tone level, otherwise will be pretty stupid to put the same -20
tone on every digital video tape which is completely unrelated with the
real sound on the track.


The 1KC tone is there to make sure you don't clip anything, it's not there
to make sure that the perceived loudness is the same.

In the old days, there was an control operator at the transmitter who rode
the gain to keep perceived loudness about even. This does not happen any
longer. On top of this, people making commercials always want to be louder
than the programs, and the people making the programs want to be loud enough
that the commercials don't blast viewers during the breaks. In theory
EBU R-128 will help this.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Richard Webb[_3_] Richard Webb[_3_] is offline
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On Sun 2011-Nov-20 12:04, Roy W. Rising writes:
snip

Get a pair of real VU meters, set Zero VU at 20 dB below Digital
Zero for 1 KHz tone, keep it out of the red. That's what I did for
38+ years of TV sound work ~ Pre- and Post Production, In the
Studio, and Live on Air.


That's always my modus operandi, 0vu = -20 works for me.
For some things such as heavy rock, etc. where I'd done the
recording i might bump it up to 0vu=-18 or even =-12, for a
couple of projects, but mostly I found 0vu=-20 worked well
and gave anybody downstream plenty of room.

Now remember that old blind man had to do his calibration,
and work off vu metering that's audible, not visible. My
"house standard" was normally 0vu=-20 for multi track, maybe mixing as I said I might bump it up a bit, but that depended on the project and waht I expected to happen to it after it
left my hands. I aws trying to figure this all out when I
went digital from the standpoint of one who had accessible
analog vu capability, and had it for years, but no ideas,
and no input from elsewhere as to how to get access to
digital metering. Hence setting a house standard and
sticking with it was very important to my workflow.

This meant occasionally bringing in pair of eyes that
worked, generate some 1 khz test tone, make sure our
calibration was still good, then keep on working.

IT's worked for me in a variety of environments over the
years and I've never found a reason I should change that.


Regards,
Richard
.... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
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alex alex is offline
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Il 21/11/2011 0.54, Scott Dorsey ha scritto:

thanks scott,


The 1KC tone is there to make sure you don't clip anything, it's not there
to make sure that the perceived loudness is the same.

In the old days, there was an control operator at the transmitter who rode
the gain to keep perceived loudness about even. This does not happen any
longer. On top of this, people making commercials always want to be louder
than the programs, and the people making the programs want to be loud enough
that the commercials don't blast viewers during the breaks. In theory
EBU R-128 will help this.
--scott

i found a -20 tone on the 95% of the digital video tapes i saw (more
than 200 in the last few months...).
SO why put that (reference!) tone on tape nowadays, if:
1) there are no relationship with the real level;
2) -20 on digital domain means -20 on every possible player machine, so
we have no need to further describe that level;

A tv guy, once, told me that the maximum RMS value should not exceed
-10dB (i was working on a commercial).

In the fact, working for a film festival where most of the material was
issued in form of digital betacam and hdcam, there's no good way to
discover the right playback level setting other than examine the whole
tape. The problem is that there's no indication on where is the loudest
part, so the pojectionist have to discover it using the most time
consuming method! strang that no refernce level is issued!

alex




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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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alex wrote:
i found a -20 tone on the 95% of the digital video tapes i saw (more
than 200 in the last few months...).
SO why put that (reference!) tone on tape nowadays, if:
1) there are no relationship with the real level;
2) -20 on digital domain means -20 on every possible player machine, so
we have no need to further describe that level;


In the old days, you put the tone at "nominal level" on the analogue tape,
which was where the meters read zero.

When digital came along, different houses put the "nominal level" at
different digital peak levels. Some folks set the 0dB tone at -15dBFS,
some put it at -20 or -25dBFS.

That level is just there to warn the operator about where the levels
are going to fall.

A tv guy, once, told me that the maximum RMS value should not exceed
-10dB (i was working on a commercial).


-10dB-what? -10dBFS? That would seem a bit high to me... you would
probably have to compress a good bit to get a dialogue track up to
-10dBFS averages without the peak going over 0dBFS. But it's certainly
not out of the question.

In the fact, working for a film festival where most of the material was
issued in form of digital betacam and hdcam, there's no good way to
discover the right playback level setting other than examine the whole
tape. The problem is that there's no indication on where is the loudest
part, so the pojectionist have to discover it using the most time
consuming method! strang that no refernce level is issued!


Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded
and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other
people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue
will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall.

Unfortunately, lots of people are sloppy and don't, and the only solution
is for the projectionist to ride the gains by hand. Which is, after all,
his job.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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MarkK MarkK is offline
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Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded
and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many

other
people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue
will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall.



OP,

you may want to start with this

http://www.digido.com/level-practice...-k-system.html

Mark



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On Sun 2011-Nov-20 16:58, hank alrich writes:
The spectral and dynamic content of program material varies enough
that no "set 'n' forget" concept of how to handle the dynamic range
will work.


True, and whether I'm doing spoken word stuff, a jingle or
music that's my house standard, 0vu = -20dbfs. IF it's a
jingle or something its average level is hotter, but that
allows me to know where the limits are.


This is where the experience of one like Roy Rising comes into play.
You get that experience by doing the work and listening to the
result, and then, for a good long while, doing the work again, and
listening again until it starts coming out the way you want it.


True, I"ve been doing this for a few decades now, and though I may not have the major network or major label tics on the
resume some of these folks such as ROy have it's the use fo
the ears that help out the most to get this done.

Further, in the contemporary digital world of network or other audio
and video distribution, the expectation of "no more processing,
nothing will be done to if after it leaves my hand" is unrealistic.
Ain't gonna happen. Processing is built right into the chain.


This is true also, but my goal is to make it listenable even if it is heard unadulterated by further processing. That's
why I have faders or other level controls available to me,
etc.
I may use compression if it's called for, or I just may
manipulate it as it's going down, depends on the source
material, etc.

ONe of the best ways of putting it is ROy RIsing's credo "if you notice the sound, it's wrong."

Also note Scott Dorsey's answer to you, no formulaic
solution, it's your ears. YOu ahve to use them.

Not meaning to be a smart aleck or anything else, it's just
the truth of the matter.


Regards,
Richard
--
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| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
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alex alex is offline
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In '93 i worked on a soundtrack for a short 35mm movie. i remember the
man at the film sound processing plant (international recording in
Rome), analyzing the level of my dat, correct the gain of the analogue
film magnetic recorder to reflect the very strict allowance of the
optical device used to impress the sound on the film.
The man told me that there was a relationship with the tone, and other
than syncing purpuse, the 35mm magnetic film was used to "normalize" the
sound to avoid peaks dangerous for the optical device. They still used
an old western electric bulb which was out of production by decades.
The level of the tone on the magnetic film had an "exact" relationship
with the input level of the optical device. The "optical" operator just
played the tone and adjusted the level consequentially.


Il 21/11/2011 2.54, Scott Dorsey ha scritto:
Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded
and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other
people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue
will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall.

Unfortunately, lots of people are sloppy and don't, and the only solution
is for the projectionist to ride the gains by hand. Which is, after all,
his job.


No, most of them are documentary films, with stereo sound or, sometimes,
dolby prologic. The use of dolby E is very rare and we are not equipped
to decode it.

thanks for the advice, scott.
So what i have to do is valuate the level by hear with the help of a
standard VU meter or K20 (or 14) system where the zero reading will
equal to 83 dB in the control room.

In the case i use the k20 system, is ok to mix the dialogues around 0dB
on that scale and using the extra headroom for louder sound effects?
Doing this and putting a -20 tone (reading 0 on that scale), will tell
the operator where is the expected dialogs level. So he can manage to
set the theatre volume to obtain 83dB with the tone, and the dialogs
will follow. Correct? and if K14 is used, is better to set the tone to -14?

Appear that, as opposite on what happened with 35mm film sound, the tone
will tell us something about the dialogs levels, instead being related
to the max VU program peak level? Is this correct?

thanks
alex
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Il 21/11/2011 3.26, MarkK ha scritto:
OP,

you may want to start with this

http://www.digido.com/level-practice...-k-system.html

Mark

thanks Mark,
i already know this whole thing about the 83dB and the k systems, but i
wanted to know the exact relationship, if any, between tone and real
levels. This because i noticed a lot of leading tones completely
unrealated to the real audio level of the video...

alex


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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alex wrote:
i already know this whole thing about the 83dB and the k systems, but i
wanted to know the exact relationship, if any, between tone and real
levels. This because i noticed a lot of leading tones completely
unrealated to the real audio level of the video...


Average dialogue levels should be at about the reference level, on an
average-reading meter like a VU meter.

Beyond that is anyone's guess.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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alex wrote:
In '93 i worked on a soundtrack for a short 35mm movie. i remember the
man at the film sound processing plant (international recording in
Rome), analyzing the level of my dat, correct the gain of the analogue
film magnetic recorder to reflect the very strict allowance of the
optical device used to impress the sound on the film.


Right. He's riding the gain on the fly, to keep perceived and recorded
levels correct. That's an important part of what audio engineering is
all about.

The man told me that there was a relationship with the tone, and other
than syncing purpuse, the 35mm magnetic film was used to "normalize" the
sound to avoid peaks dangerous for the optical device. They still used
an old western electric bulb which was out of production by decades.
The level of the tone on the magnetic film had an "exact" relationship
with the input level of the optical device. The "optical" operator just
played the tone and adjusted the level consequentially.


Well, here's the thing. The light valve, much like digital systems, cares
about peak levels rather than average levels, BUT the problem is that the
level that it fully opens or closes at changes with frequency somewhat.

So, you record the tone with a given average level, and since it's a known
waveform, you ALSO know the peak level for it.

Okay, stuff delivered to a film festival probably should be AC-3 encoded
and you probably SHOULD follow the Dolby recommendations because many other
people do. If you do it according to the Dolby recommendations, dialogue
will read 85 dBA in the center of the hall.

Unfortunately, lots of people are sloppy and don't, and the only solution
is for the projectionist to ride the gains by hand. Which is, after all,
his job.


No, most of them are documentary films, with stereo sound or, sometimes,
dolby prologic. The use of dolby E is very rare and we are not equipped
to decode it.


Dolby E basically exists to solve a lot of these problems. Part of the
issue is that many people are working with measurements designed in the
analogue world, but are living in the digital world. Part of the issue
is that some meters are designed to read peak levels or modulation levels,
while other meters (like VU and the EBU recommendation mentioned earlier)
are intended to estimate perceived loudness, and people use the wrong meter
for the job.

And so of course the end solution turns into having a man adjust a knob.

thanks for the advice, scott.
So what i have to do is valuate the level by hear with the help of a
standard VU meter or K20 (or 14) system where the zero reading will
equal to 83 dB in the control room.


Right, but THEN how do you match that to a given modulation level on your
tape or to a given dBFS value on the digital file?

In the case i use the k20 system, is ok to mix the dialogues around 0dB
on that scale and using the extra headroom for louder sound effects?
Doing this and putting a -20 tone (reading 0 on that scale), will tell
the operator where is the expected dialogs level. So he can manage to
set the theatre volume to obtain 83dB with the tone, and the dialogs
will follow. Correct? and if K14 is used, is better to set the tone to -14?


Yes, BUT you soon run into problems with running out of headroom, because
you can't go above 0dBFS at all. If your sound effects have spiky waveforms
you may have to limit them severely to get them loud enough.

Appear that, as opposite on what happened with 35mm film sound, the tone
will tell us something about the dialogs levels, instead being related
to the max VU program peak level? Is this correct?


Right, because everybody knows where the peak level is... it's a universal
scale that doesn't drift in the digital world. So there is no need for
another indication of maximum level.

BUT..... in the analogue world there is no abrupt peak saturation... even
with that light valve there's sort of a nonlinear range right before it
opens of closes completely. With analogue tape or magfilm you may have
a range of as much as 10db where the system sounds funny but hasn't clipped
completely yet. In the digital world, it is either fine or it is not,
there is no partway.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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