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#1
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Denon poa 2200
I have a chance to buy one for $100. Sounds like
a good deal, but there is chatter here from time to time about old capacitors, and this is probably a 20+ year old amp. Should I be concerned about its age? They guy says it's a class A also. Is that always a good thing? Thanks |
#2
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Denon poa 2200
"Tobiah" wrote in message
... I have a chance to buy one for $100. Sounds like a good deal, but there is chatter here from time to time about old capacitors, and this is probably a 20+ year old amp. Should I be concerned about its age? They guy says it's a class A also. Is that always a good thing? For $100? Grab it. Unless the amp itself, or this particular sample, has "problems" (such as spontaneously blowing its output transistors for no good reason), you're getting a deal -- though you should ask the seller why he wants so little for it. If the power supply caps need replacing, it isn't difficult or horribly expensive. Twenty years isn't horribly old for high-quality electrolytic caps. Class A operation, in theory, is always a good thing. But the amp's overall design is ultimately more important. |
#3
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Denon poa 2200
For $100? Grab it. Unless the amp itself, or this particular sample, has
"problems" (such as spontaneously blowing its output transistors for no good reason), you're getting a deal -- though you should ask the seller why he wants so little for it. He had up for $200 originally, but had no takers. I made the offer, and I'm thinking he's going to take it. The asking price is now $150. I may offer $125. I hope he's not on this list Thanks, Tobiah |
#4
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Denon poa 2200
You gor yourself a deal. Even if it needs new capacitors, you can
replace them for not a lot of money, and you're ahead of the game. Solid-state Class-A amplifiers usually decent sound, so that makes them a good thing. If you're into saving money on your electric bills (and A/C bills in the summer), they're not such a good thing. Peace, Paul (sitting 3 feet from an 8-Watt Class-A amp as I type) |
#5
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Denon poa 2200
Some points of clarification...
Most class A amps aren't, really. A 100W/ch class A amplifier would require a huge power supply and ginormous heat sinks because, as someone else pointed out, it's effectively running "full power" at all times. Most class A amps (as someone else pointed out) are class A only up to a certain point, which seems to run about 10% of full output. Some AB amps are "high bias" (as yet another person pointed out), and provide class A operation up to five or ten watts, which is fine for moderate listening levels. If the manufacturer will tell you what the bias current is, you can compute the peak class A output by doubling the bias value, squaring it, and multiplying by the load resistance. |
#6
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Denon poa 2200
On 11/21/2011 4:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Some points of clarification... Most class A amps aren't, really. I saw some evidence online that this one is not, really. It is a bit of a monster though. It weighs 40 pounds. I like it because of the good reputation, and that the front is mostly blank. The input gains are on the back. The front only has power and A/B speaker switches and a few lights. It will look really cool sitting under my 1402VLZ Pro. I ended up having to offer $150, which was accepted. Now to close the deal, which doesn't always happen after an email conversation. Tobiah |
#7
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Denon poa 2200
"Tobiah" wrote in message
... On 11/21/2011 4:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote: Some points of clarification... Most class A amps aren't, really. I saw some evidence online that this one is not, really. It is a bit of a monster though. It weighs 40 pounds. I like it because of the good reputation, and that the front is mostly blank. The input gains are on the back. The front only has power and A/B speaker switches and a few lights. It will look really cool sitting under my 1402VLZ Pro. But your 1402VLZ Pro might not remain "cool" (ar-ar). I ended up having to offer $150, which was accepted. Now to close the deal, which doesn't always happen after an e-mail conversation. I assume you know to be cautious. On eBay, I've had a few sellers who shipped damaged or malfunctioning merchandise (only one made good on it), or took my money and didn't ship anything. Then there was this guy and his girlfriend who were just plain psycho. They decided to back out of the deal without bothering to tell me. I didn't lose any money, but... |
#8
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Denon poa 2200
On 11/22/2011 05:46 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
wrote in message ... On 11/21/2011 4:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote: Some points of clarification... Most class A amps aren't, really. I saw some evidence online that this one is not, really. It is a bit of a monster though. It weighs 40 pounds. I like it because of the good reputation, and that the front is mostly blank. The input gains are on the back. The front only has power and A/B speaker switches and a few lights. It will look really cool sitting under my 1402VLZ Pro. But your 1402VLZ Pro might not remain "cool" (ar-ar). I heard that this amp runs pretty cool, but I'll be careful. I assume you know to be cautious. On eBay, I've had a few sellers who shipped damaged or malfunctioning merchandise (only one made good on it), or took my money and didn't ship anything. Then there was this guy and his girlfriend who were just plain psycho. They decided to back out of the deal without bothering to tell me. I didn't lose any money, but... I've had excellent luck with eBay, but this was a local thing. I'm going to pick up the amp in person this afternoon, and will at least be able to verify that it is working. If it was suffering from old capacitors, how could I check for that? Just see whether it sounds good to my ear at that particular moment? Thanks, Tobiah |
#9
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Denon poa 2200
"Tobiah" wrote in message
... If it was suffering from old capacitors, how could I check for that? Just see whether it sounds good to my ear at that particular moment? If the caps were actually "bad", the amp might not come on, or it might trip its protective circuits, or have other obvious problems.. My gut feeling is that a 20-year-old amplifier is unlikely to have bad caps. Get the owner to demo the amp before you buy it. |
#10
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Denon poa 2200
"Tobiah" wrote in message ... I have a chance to buy one for $100. Sounds like a good deal, but there is chatter here from time to time about old capacitors, and this is probably a 20+ year old amp. Should I be concerned about its age? They guy says it's a class A also. Is that always a good thing? Looking around, it appears to be a 220 wpc home audio-type power amp from the early 1990s. I see just one on eBay, bid up to about $150, with a reserve of some where around twice that, which seems salty. No way is it full class A, but it might be class A up to say, 30 wpc. Doesn't matter, anyway. Here's the service manual: http://vintageshifi.com/denonpoa2200.pdf In my book $100 is just about mad money. If it works, you have a deal and if it does not, then you aren't out that much money. 20 year old capacitors could be in good shape, but a thorough bench test would give you the "final answer". |
#11
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Denon poa 2200
I see just one on eBay, bid up to about $150, with a reserve of some where
around twice that, which seems salty. I saw one under completed auctions that went for ~$250 + $45 shipping. So yeah, I'll go have a listen, and likely buy it for the now $150. |
#12
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Denon poa 2200
On 11/22/2011 2:30 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Arny wrote in message ... In my book $100 is just about mad money. If it works, you have a deal, and if it does not, then you aren't out that much money. Seconded. I turned out to be $150, but I picked it up, and hooked it up. It's hard to A/B amps, but I believe that I'm hearing individual instruments with better separation, and the bass seems as they say, "controlled", albeit plentiful. I actually think I'm now better able to pinpoint some of the things that I don't like as being in the source material. I was using a JVC receiver earlier. Or maybe I'm just optimistic, but my old receiver died, and I needed to scratch and itch. I was worried that the old capacitors, should they have changed over the years, would gradually modify the sound from the amps new state. I'm not sure what the actual concern about the caps is, whether its quality, or simply working or not. I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. Does that sound sane? Thanks, Tobiah |
#13
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Denon poa 2200
On Nov 22, 6:52*pm, Tobiah wrote:
On 11/22/2011 2:30 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote: "Arny *wrote in message ... In my book $100 is just about mad money. If it works, you have a deal, and if it does not, then you aren't out that much money. Seconded. I turned out to be $150, but I picked it up, and hooked it up. It's hard to A/B amps, but I believe that I'm hearing individual instruments with better separation, and the bass seems as they say, "controlled", albeit plentiful. *I actually think I'm now better able to pinpoint some of the things that I don't like as being in the source material. *I was using a JVC receiver earlier. Or maybe I'm just optimistic, but my old receiver died, and I needed to scratch and itch. *I was worried that the old capacitors, should they have changed over the years, would gradually modify the sound from the amps new state. *I'm not sure what the actual concern about the caps is, whether its quality, or simply working or not. I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. *Does that sound sane? No; consider that most output amplifiers have higher distortion when the output level is higher. That goes double for Mackie gear, which often has decent mic preamps but low-grade opamps in later stages, including the outputs. I'd set the Mackie's output faders at their nominal level (probably about 14dB down from maximum -- there'll d a mark) and use the channel faders (or, if you're listening to an external source, the control for that source) to set the level so that the highest peaks very occasionally light up the bottom yellow LED in the Mackie's level meters. Don't let the other yellow lights light up, and don't let any of the red lights light up ever. Once you've done that, use the level control(s) on your new amplifier to set the volume to what you want to hear. Turning the power amp controls way down and driving the Mackie's outputs hard is a sure recipe for high distortion. Peace, Paul |
#14
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Denon poa 2200
I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as
I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. Does that sound sane? I don't know about sanity, but that's usually the way it's done. I can't speak to the other poster's claim that the Mackie has too much distortion at higher outputs. Try it both ways and draw your own conclusions. |
#15
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Denon poa 2200
Tobiah wrote:
I turned out to be $150, but I picked it up, and hooked it up. It's hard to A/B amps, but I believe that I'm hearing individual instruments with better separation, and the bass seems as they say, "controlled", albeit plentiful. I actually think I'm now better able to pinpoint some of the things that I don't like as being in the source material. I was using a JVC receiver earlier. Really, you might want to listen to some of the earlier advice about the GFA 535 or GFA 555, or some of the specific Hafler models mentioned. Not thjat the Denon might not turn out to be good, but then again it might not. Or maybe I'm just optimistic, but my old receiver died, and I needed to scratch and itch. I was worried that the old capacitors, should they have changed over the years, would gradually modify the sound from the amps new state. I'm not sure what the actual concern about the caps is, whether its quality, or simply working or not. Measure frequency response. Measure noise. If they are good, the thing is not suffering cap failures. Well-designed and well-constructed equipment does not have a problem with electrolytics aging. Poorly-designed equipment does, either because the caps used are poor or because they are in places in the signal path where the values are critical or because the whole system runs too hot and bakes the electrolytics out. There is a lot of poorly-designed gear out there, some of it very expensive. I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. Does that sound sane? There is a good introduction to gain staging in the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. I highly recommend it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
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Denon poa 2200
PStamler wrote:
On Nov 22, 6:52 pm, Tobiah wrote: On 11/22/2011 2:30 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote: "Arny wrote in message ... In my book $100 is just about mad money. If it works, you have a deal, and if it does not, then you aren't out that much money. Seconded. I turned out to be $150, but I picked it up, and hooked it up. It's hard to A/B amps, but I believe that I'm hearing individual instruments with better separation, and the bass seems as they say, "controlled", albeit plentiful. I actually think I'm now better able to pinpoint some of the things that I don't like as being in the source material. I was using a JVC receiver earlier. Or maybe I'm just optimistic, but my old receiver died, and I needed to scratch and itch. I was worried that the old capacitors, should they have changed over the years, would gradually modify the sound from the amps new state. I'm not sure what the actual concern about the caps is, whether its quality, or simply working or not. I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. Does that sound sane? No; consider that most output amplifiers have higher distortion when the output level is higher. That goes double for Mackie gear, which often has decent mic preamps but low-grade opamps in later stages, including the outputs. I'd set the Mackie's output faders at their nominal level (probably about 14dB down from maximum -- there'll d a mark) and use the channel faders (or, if you're listening to an external source, the control for that source) to set the level so that the highest peaks very occasionally light up the bottom yellow LED in the Mackie's level meters. Don't let the other yellow lights light up, and don't let any of the red lights light up ever. Once you've done that, use the level control(s) on your new amplifier to set the volume to what you want to hear. Turning the power amp controls way down and driving the Mackie's outputs hard is a sure recipe for high distortion. Peace, Paul Good advice. What I've found with Mackie's older boards (pre-Onyx line) is that by observing the metering at every step in gain staging, starting with the pre/line input(s) and keeping it into the green LED's, never getting into the yellow ("caution!") lights, gets a surprisingly clean signal with no intrusion of noise floor. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#17
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Denon poa 2200
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. Does that sound sane? I don't know about sanity, but that's usually the way it's done. I can't speak to the other poster's claim that the Mackie has too much distortion at higher outputs. Try it both ways and draw your own conclusions. I can verify that restraining output level on Mackie boards makes a world of difference, a better world. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#18
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Denon poa 2200
I assume that I should turn the input gain controls down as far as
I can, while achieving my desired loudest volume with the Mackie at unity. Does that sound sane? No; consider that most output amplifiers have higher distortion when the output level is higher. That goes double for Mackie gear, which often has decent mic preamps but low-grade opamps in later stages, including the outputs. I'd set the Mackie's output faders at their nominal level (probably about 14dB down from maximum -- there'll d a mark) and use the channel faders (or, if you're listening to an external source, the control for that source) to set the level so that the highest peaks very occasionally light up the bottom yellow LED in the Mackie's level meters. Don't let the other yellow lights light up, and don't let any of the red lights light up ever. Once you've done that, use the level control(s) on your new amplifier to set the volume to what you want to hear. Turning the power amp controls way down and driving the Mackie's outputs hard is a sure recipe for high distortion. What I did, was to put the Mackie at unity throughout, and adjust the amp's inputs so that I was hearing what I thought was the loudest volume that I'd ever want to hear, then a tad more. I'm listening to some music right now (O' Brother where art though soundtrack) at a nice loud level, and the CTL Room fader is sitting at about -11 dB. Part of my motivation for this method was that the amp is sitting under my desk, and the input gains are in the back. I wanted to set them so that I'd never feel the need to crawl back down there and fiddle with them again. I think they ended up at about 40%. Maybe I'll bump them up to 50%, considering what you said about the mixer. |
#19
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Denon poa 2200
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Tobiah wrote: I turned out to be $150, but I picked it up, and hooked it up. It's hard to A/B amps, but I believe that I'm hearing individual instruments with better separation, and the bass seems as they say, "controlled", albeit plentiful. I actually think I'm now better able to pinpoint some of the things that I don't like as being in the source material. I was using a JVC receiver earlier. Really, you might want to listen to some of the earlier advice about the GFA 535 or GFA 555, or some of the specific Hafler models mentioned. Not thjat the Denon might not turn out to be good, but then again it might not. Hiya', Scott! What thread were the Haflers mentioned in? I didn't see it in this thread. I'm pretty sure that the TA series weren't included--as mine stunk up the joint. They're better than nothing, but they keep dying on me. TA1100 and TA1600. I'm thinking that the P series and the DH series have good reputations, but I've not gotten a good listen. I'm still trying to save up the cash to repair my McIntosh MC2100, as I managed to blow one side out due to a bad driver on a Polk Audio Monitor 3 speaker. ---Jeff |
#20
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Denon poa 2200
Arkansan Raider wrote:
Hiya', Scott! What thread were the Haflers mentioned in? I didn't see it in this thread. I'm pretty sure that the TA series weren't included--as mine stunk up the joint. They're better than nothing, but they keep dying on me. TA1100 and TA1600. What's failing on them? They are pretty easy to work on. They're kind of cut down compared with the Trans-Nova amps and that includes the power supply, but they are decent for the price. However, they don't have a lot of protection in there. I'm thinking that the P series and the DH series have good reputations, but I've not gotten a good listen. The DH series has a seriously undersized power supply, but that's life on the cheap end of the market. The P series is pretty similar to the TA series inside as I recall, but fan colled, etc. I'm still trying to save up the cash to repair my McIntosh MC2100, as I managed to blow one side out due to a bad driver on a Polk Audio Monitor 3 speaker. I never liked those things myself, but they are rugged as hell and easy to work on. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#21
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Denon poa 2200
On 11/19/2011 1:39 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I have a chance to buy one for $100. Sounds like a good deal, but there is chatter here from time to time about old capacitors, and this is probably a 20+ year old amp. Should I be concerned about its age? They guy says it's a class A also. Is that always a good thing? Thanks What's up with the two sets of inputs on the back? One is supposed to be for hooking up a CD player directly to the amp, while the other is meant to take preamp output. They both seem to sound the same at the same level, and they are both affected by the level knobs. Is this just a marketing gimmick from when CD's were the rage? Thanks, Tobiah |
#22
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Denon poa 2200
"Arkansan Raider" wrote in message
... Scott Dorsey wrote: Really, you might want to listen to some of the earlier advice about the GFA 535 or GFA 555, or some of the specific Hafler models mentioned. Not that the Denon might not turn out to be good, but then again it might not. I used to own the XL280, and it drove Acoustats very well. A friend of mine bought an Adcom (the 555, I think) for his M-L 'stats. It sounded terrific. An amplifier can be cheap and good. |
#23
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Denon poa 2200
"Tobiah" wrote in message ... What's up with the two sets of inputs on the back? One is supposed to be for hooking up a CD player directly to the amp, while the other is meant to take preamp output. They both seem to sound the same at the same level, and they are both affected by the level knobs. Is this just a marketing gimmick from when CD's were the rage? Since there are separate input levels controls and they are on the back panel, probably no intent that the amp be used without a preamp or a CD player or other device with its own level control. The two inputs are hooked together prior to the channel gain control. The CD input differs in that there is a 7.5 k resistor in series, as a jumper over to the Normal input. The input impedance of the power amp circuit itself is no more than 47 K and the input level control is 50 K. I see a lot of potential for the second input to be a frustrating feature to actually use. Its really not suitable for use with most CD players or other devices that lack volume controls. For more information, please check the service manual at http://vintageshifi.com/denonpoa2200.pdf . This probably just about everything that is known at this time. |
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