[Wink]

Science has the potential to have all the answers. It doesn't follow
that is has all the answers currently.

In this instance science most certainly DOES have the answer.
Of course, it frequently does.

If it DOESN'T, there's a problem or a misapprehension somewhere !!! Realising this
fundamental truth and working things through has led me to learn some interesting things
about some aspects of circuit behaviour that 'common sense' or 'popular lore' would have
you believe were due to things that are in fact utterly irrelevant.
For example? Seriously, I'm interested -- despite our mutually puerile
spear chucking.

Your old caps had reduced capacitance through aging. That's why new ones of the
correct originally specified value sounded different. That would be the case
regardless of the brand name on the can.
Yes, they would sound different regardless of "the brand name on the
can". But would they sound moribund??

Are you just randonly typing? This is ridiculous.

What I'm saying is that any two (20% tolerance for example) caps selected at random of
any specific value may differ in value by as much as 50%. That's enough to ensure that
sonic differences may result in some circuits. Of course if the subjectivist hears this
difference when fitting their new 'magick component' they will tend to beleive it's
because of the magick because they've been told to believe that over a scientific
explanation.
Yes, of course. Understood regarding widely differing values.

Will they think it's magic if the difference tends toward one of an
inferior result?


As to sounding 'moribund', how can you say this when as you say it's at high SPL and
presumably clipping. This is not a sensible test regime for any piece of kit.
Oh my Lord, you're all over the goddamned place.

I have in the past looked at the technical construction aspect of BGs and can find
nothing there whatever that would improve the performance of a power supply.
When my blocks are finished and I've had a thorough listen I will
certainly report back with conclusions. You very well may be correct.

[Wink]

I'm a pro-audio designer who's worked with some of the best in the busines and I'm
something of an expert about amplifier design.
Pro-Audio designer. Mmmmm.... Do you have a 30 db notch at 4 or 6 khz
from noise induced hearing loss?

Absolutely not. Designers don't typically expose themselves to the high SPLs that might
do that. As it happens I have done some live sound engineering but I'm careful about my
exposure.
That's good Graham. Wilson Shen, who is Clayton Audio, told me that
Steve Tyler of Aerosmith bought an S-40. I immediately wondered how he
could appreciate its performance. Perhaps he's taken similar
precautions over the years.

Do you fancy the Benchmark DAC 1?

I haven't heard one but my recent experience is that all ** decent ** modern DACS are
essentially indistinguishable. Obviously not those in a $29 DVD player of course.
I asked about the DAC 1 because of its unbelievable clarity, though
I've not compared it to other modern DACs.
Dave






Graham

[Wink]

Wrong. I've not said a word about how the BGs sound.

There's really nothing to say - in a circuit like the Hafler, just about any
reasonble cap will sound identically the same.
"....sound identically the same." Ouch.

Well anyway, All of this is simply a source of amusement for you,
obviously. I'm not using the original PC19 driver card.

You're increasing smallness has become exhausting.

[Arny Krueger]

"Dave Platt" wrote in message

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:

Wrong. I've not said a word about how the BGs sound.

There's really nothing to say - in a circuit like the
Hafler, just about any reasonble cap will sound
identically the same.

"....sound identically the same." Ouch.

You can't improve on sonically transparent, which the
stock Haflers are.

This exchange reminds me of a very perceptive editorial
in IAR some years ago. The writer opined that many of
the audiophile-oriented equipment reviewers were praising
certain audio components, for behaviors that they should
have been condemning.

The specific example was DAC boxes. Certain (expensive)
DAC boxes were being praised for being very "revealing" -
they would "reveal" differences between the qualities of
the CD transports with which they were being used.

IOW, the so-called "revealing" DACs had interfacing problems.

That's actually a *bad* thing, as it indicates that the
DAC-box is reacting to aspects of the S/PDIF digital
signal (e.g. timing-jitter spectrum) that it *should* be
ignoring. A DAC-box with more robust clock-signal
recovery circuitry would always sound the same (i.e. at
its best) when used with *any* CD transport that was
delivering a bit-correct digital data stream, and would
not need an outboard "jitter reduction" reclocker.

Exactly. For example, the lowly Technics SHAC 500 would synch on just
about any digital input @ 44 or 48, and produce a very clean, very low
jitter analog output. I think all forms of jitter were about 115 dB down,
regardless.

It seems to me that an amplifier circuit which is
sensitive to the brand (or e.g. slight ESR or value
variations) of its power-supply reservoir capacitors is,
likewise, overly sensitive to things that it really
shouldn't "notice".

What's been revealed so far is that the Hafler amps in question have
golden-ear driver boards in them. Who knows how they were putzed up, in
order to conform to some off-the-wall magic design philosophy.

[Eeyore]

Wink wrote:

Time to study up on the new golden driver cards, no?

Google on John Hillig...

Golden driver cards? Explain.

The only notable thing a Google search reveals about John aside from
generally positive audio commentary is that his mother died last week,
but I knew this before seeing the obit.

I worship at the alter of John Hillig. This is what you assume of
course. Well -- It is true, I do.

Can you tell us more about John Hillig and his mod ?

If you want some good advice on amplifier design other than from me, you
could go here .....
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm

Graham

[Don Pearce]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:44:56 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Wink wrote:

Time to study up on the new golden driver cards, no?

Google on John Hillig...

Golden driver cards? Explain.

The only notable thing a Google search reveals about John aside from
generally positive audio commentary is that his mother died last week,
but I knew this before seeing the obit.

I worship at the alter of John Hillig. This is what you assume of
course. Well -- It is true, I do.

Can you tell us more about John Hillig and his mod ?

If you want some good advice on amplifier design other than from me, you
could go here .....
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm

Graham




Better still, buy the book and really understand what he has to say.
His forensic deconstruction of the amplifier and its modes of
distortion is unequalled.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Arny Krueger]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:44:56 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Wink wrote:

Time to study up on the new golden driver cards, no?

Google on John Hillig...

Golden driver cards? Explain.

The only notable thing a Google search reveals about
John aside from generally positive audio commentary is
that his mother died last week, but I knew this before
seeing the obit.

I worship at the alter of John Hillig. This is what you
assume of course. Well -- It is true, I do.

Can you tell us more about John Hillig and his mod ?

If you want some good advice on amplifier design other
than from me, you could go here .....
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm

Better still, buy the book and really understand what he
has to say. His forensic deconstruction of the amplifier
and its modes of distortion is unequalled.

Agreed. If only I had that information at hand back in the early 90s when I
was hot to build a super power amp.

[Arny Krueger]

"Kevin McMurtrie" wrote in
message


If this is one of those fancy amplifiers where the
pull-up and pull-down are perfectly balanced,

Please explain further.

[dizzy]

Don Pearce wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

If you want some good advice on amplifier design other than from me, you
could go here .....
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm

Better still, buy the book and really understand what he has to say.
His forensic deconstruction of the amplifier and its modes of
distortion is unequalled.

Bought his book. Built (and use) his preamp

[Wink]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 09:09:34 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Wink wrote:

I should say at this point that I seem to have solved the "peculiar"
sound problem: Speaker cables. Being monoblocks, I am able to use very
short, ~ 10" 14# zip cord as cable, biwired. I switched those out for
my "reference standard" 6 foot, 16# Lowes extension cord cables
(bi-wired) and the problem dissappeared. A dramatic result,
completely unanticipated. When a result is so unanticipated, I rate
it as significant despite the lack of rigorous test methods.

Looks like your speakers prefer being driven from a slightly higher
impedance than can be achieved with short wiring.

Graham
Yes, exactly Graham...that's what I think as well.

[Wink]

I like putting a buch of car batteries up for the rails. Its really
rock solid sound.
Yes, I've never tried it, but it must be the cleanest power available.


Here is all about BG..
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/blackgate/bgmain.htm
Thanks for the link. I've read quite a bit of it Greg.
Regards,
Dave


greg

[Wink]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:54:25 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Wink wrote:

I should say at this point that I seem to have solved
the "peculiar" sound problem: Speaker cables. Being
monoblocks, I am able to use very short, ~ 10" 14# zip
cord as cable, biwired. I switched those out for my
"reference standard" 6 foot, 16# Lowes extension cord
cables (bi-wired) and the problem dissappeared. A
dramatic result, completely unanticipated. When a
result is so unanticipated, I rate it as significant
despite the lack of rigorous test methods.

Looks like your speakers prefer being driven from a
slightly higher impedance than can be achieved with short
wiring.

Nahh, the application of additional snake oil audio cables rectified his
concerns.
Extension cord wire.

[Wink]

This may be true of some subjectivists, but surely there
is a continuum.

Sure, and I'm a subjectivist on that continuum.

If you study up on the meaning of subjectivist, its not what the high end
audio crowd make it out to be. In fact subjectivism and objectivism are not
necessarily mutually exclusive, no matter what the high end high priests
want people to believe.

I had a lot of fun with the standard definitions of objectivism and
subjectivism at HE2005.
I hope you didn't brandish a dictionary.
Anybody who actually listened and believed the
standard definitions, started out knowing that I was debating a posturer,
and not someone who appeals to reason and knowlege.

So you creamed Poseur John A's clock?

Give me the science every time, if it's been formulated.

All results of scientific investigation are provisional, until we get the
next generation of improved results.
Sounds good, but vague. Explain.

Thing is, this golden capacitor
weirdness has been around for about 30 years, and its just as false today as
it was 30 years ago.

I use extension cord for cable. Perhaps that will glean some points.

It's not about points, its about gettting the best possible results given
available resources. The ultimate non-negotiable resource is calendar time,
with money running a close second. As this thread tells me, the exotic caps
are wasting both.

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and yielding some
magic in sporadic bursts.

[Wink]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:44:56 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Wink wrote:

Time to study up on the new golden driver cards, no?

Google on John Hillig...

Golden driver cards? Explain.

The only notable thing a Google search reveals about John aside from
generally positive audio commentary is that his mother died last week,
but I knew this before seeing the obit.

I worship at the alter of John Hillig. This is what you assume of
course. Well -- It is true, I do.

Can you tell us more about John Hillig and his mod ?
Yes, sack time is upon. I will tomorrow Graham.

If you want some good advice on amplifier design other than from me, you
could go here .....
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm

Ahhh..quick scan suggests an excellent site. Thanks.

I AM interested in your amp thoughts Graham. Could you describe, say,
your ultimate amplifier in a few paragraphs, or as many as required.
Or anything that comes to mind: General guidelines and the like.
Whatever strikes you.

Perhaps simply some free association on amp design.
Dave

[Wink]

If you want some good advice on amplifier design other than from me, you
could go here .....
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm

Graham

Better still, buy the book and really understand what he has to say.
His forensic deconstruction of the amplifier and its modes of
distortion is unequalled.

I've printed out his Science and Subjectivism in Audio treatise. Look
forward every word.
Dave

[Wink]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:52:06 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Wink" wrote in message

Let the true believers believe, and continue with your
pot metal ears.

Yup, the prerequisite radical naive subjectivist
personal attack.

You mean requisite.
I've been posting to Usenet for over 12 years and some
things don't change. 12 years -- very impressive.

Can't, a perception.

Solipsim noted.

SolipsiSm. Incorrectly used, but at least your spelling
is close. I'm beginning to think you're a fraud Arny. You
seem nervous.

I'm not nervious - I'm too relaxed to worry about yet another disciple of
Walt Jung who thinks he has all the answers.
Say what?

Correct my casual spelling and make a big problem out of it if you will...

Your nit-picking proves to me that I was right to not bother check the
spelling of the word because you'll grab onto any nit, no matter how small,
to avoid getting the truth about the pseudo-science that you have bought
into, hook, line, and golden capacitor.

I've think I've mentioned more than once that I've been BG skeptic,
severe at that.

[Wink]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:03:49 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Wink" wrote in message
news
Wrong. I've not said a word about how the BGs sound.

There's really nothing to say - in a circuit like the
Hafler, just about any reasonble cap will sound
identically the same.

"....sound identically the same." Ouch.

You can't improve on sonically transparent, which the stock Haflers are.
Stock Haflers sonically transparent. Oh my god.

Well anyway, All of this is simply a source of amusement
for you, obviously. I'm not using the original PC19
driver card.

I figured this out. I'm very sure that the Hafler stock PC19 card is
intelligently designed. I've heard many times with my own ears how nicely
they work.
Borbely, I think.

You're increasing smallness has become exhausting.

I'm kinda interested in hearing how Hillig peed in the PC19 soup and
according to you, ruined their ability to work with slightly low power
supply voltages. I have the schematic of the origional PC19 here on the
screen...

The pa-3 series cards work over a very wide voltage range Arny. He
uses them from 56 to 90 volts. I observed a competely formed sinewave
at something like 20 V rail voltage, ~70 ma bias.

The PA-3 series and PC19 are completely different. Call him and ask
about it.

[Wink]

This exchange reminds me of a very perceptive editorial in IAR some
years ago. The writer opined that many of the audiophile-oriented
equipment reviewers were praising certain audio components, for
behaviors that they should have been condemning.

The specific example was DAC boxes. Certain (expensive) DAC boxes
were being praised for being very "revealing" - they would "reveal"
differences between the qualities of the CD transports with which they
were being used. That's actually a *bad* thing, as it indicates that
the DAC-box is reacting to aspects of the S/PDIF digital signal (e.g.
timing-jitter spectrum) that it *should* be ignoring. A DAC-box with
more robust clock-signal recovery circuitry would always sound the
same (i.e. at its best) when used with *any* CD transport that was
delivering a bit-correct digital data stream, and would not need an
outboard "jitter reduction" reclocker.

It seems to me that an amplifier circuit which is sensitive to the
brand (or e.g. slight ESR or value variations) of its power-supply
reservoir capacitors is, likewise, overly sensitive to things that it
really shouldn't "notice".

Extremely interesting observation Dave.

[Arny Krueger]

"Wink" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:52:06 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Wink" wrote in message

Let the true believers believe, and continue with your
pot metal ears.

Yup, the prerequisite radical naive subjectivist
personal attack.

You mean requisite.
I've been posting to Usenet for over 12 years and some
things don't change. 12 years -- very impressive.

Can't, a perception.

Solipsim noted.

SolipsiSm. Incorrectly used, but at least your spelling
is close. I'm beginning to think you're a fraud Arny.
You seem nervous.

I'm not nervious - I'm too relaxed to worry about yet
another disciple of Walt Jung who thinks he has all the
answers.

Say what?

You said Pooge, right?

[Arny Krueger]

"Wink" wrote in message


The pa-3 series cards work over a very wide voltage range
Arny.

A wide range for an application like this is no less than 20 to 90 volts.

He uses them from 56 to 90 volts. I observed a
competely formed sinewave at something like 20 V rail
voltage, ~70 ma bias.

Then what are you hearing that's wrong?

The PA-3 series and PC19 are completely different. Call
him and ask about it.

Waster of time - the stock Hafler will pass a straight wire bypass test. I'm
sure you've never done one.

[Arny Krueger]

"Wink" wrote in message
news
I like putting a buch of car batteries up for the rails.
Its really rock solid sound.
Yes, I've never tried it, but it must be the cleanest
power available.


Here is all about BG..
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/blackgate/bgmain.htm
Thanks for the link. I've read quite a bit of it Greg.

I'll bet you didn't detect the brown smelly stuff that permeates it.

It's basically an audio IQ test - if you give it any credibility at all, you
failed!

[Arny Krueger]

"Wink" wrote in message

This may be true of some subjectivists, but surely there
is a continuum.

Sure, and I'm a subjectivist on that continuum.

If you study up on the meaning of subjectivist, its not
what the high end audio crowd make it out to be. In fact
subjectivism and objectivism are not necessarily
mutually exclusive, no matter what the high end high
priests want people to believe.

I had a lot of fun with the standard definitions of
objectivism and subjectivism at HE2005.

I hope you didn't brandish a dictionary.

I think the audio from it is still online at the SP web site.

Anybody who actually listened and believed the
standard definitions, started out knowing that I was
debating a posturer, and not someone who appeals to
reason and knowlege.

So you creamed Poseur John A's clock?

I look on it as an enhancment to his mental state. ;-)

Give me the science every time, if it's been formulated.

All results of scientific investigation are provisional,
until we get the next generation of improved results.
Sounds good, but vague. Explain.

Thing is, this golden capacitor
weirdness has been around for about 30 years, and its
just as false today as it was 30 years ago.

I use extension cord for cable. Perhaps that will glean
some points.

It's not about points, its about gettting the best
possible results given available resources. The ultimate
non-negotiable resource is calendar time, with money
running a close second. As this thread tells me, the
exotic caps are wasting both.

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.

Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break in *wisdom* is myth.

[jakdedert]

Arny Krueger wrote:
snip

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.

Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break in *wisdom* is myth.


But the much-vaunted magic caps need to be broken in...says so on their
website. OTOH, I can't imagine why their 'magic' comes in sporadic
bursts. Sounds like an intermittent problem to me. Sporadic bursts of
magic? Good thing Mr. Wink's not a 'subjectivist'.

jak

[Arny Krueger]

"jakdedert" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
snip

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.

Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break-in
*wisdom* is myth.
But the much-vaunted magic caps need to be broken
in...says so on their website.

Let me guess - the break-in time exceeds the return for refund period.

OTOH, I can't imagine why
their 'magic' comes in sporadic bursts.

Who said that magic has to be predictable or reliable?

Sounds like an intermittent problem to me.

Indeed.

Sporadic bursts of magic?

That's how magic works for me! ;-)

Good thing Mr. Wink's not a 'subjectivist'.

Then, what is he?

[Wink]

I had a lot of fun with the standard definitions of
objectivism and subjectivism at HE2005.

I hope you didn't brandish a dictionary.

I think the audio from it is still online at the SP web site.
I will most definitely have a listen.

It's not about points, its about gettting the best
possible results given available resources. The ultimate
non-negotiable resource is calendar time, with money
running a close second. As this thread tells me, the
exotic caps are wasting both.

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.

Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break in *wisdom* is myth.

Could be. Brain break-in probably occurs much more frequently than
actual component break-in.

[Wink]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:54:25 -0500, jakdedert
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:
snip

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.

Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break in *wisdom* is myth.


But the much-vaunted magic caps need to be broken in...says so on their
website. OTOH, I can't imagine why their 'magic' comes in sporadic
bursts. Sounds like an intermittent problem to me. Sporadic bursts of
magic? Good thing Mr. Wink's not a 'subjectivist'.

jak
It seems that BGs are notorious for have a decidedly chaotic break-in
curve. That one really makes you wonder.

[Arny Krueger]

"Wink" wrote in message

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:52:57 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Wink" wrote in message


The pa-3 series cards work over a very wide voltage
range Arny.

A wide range for an application like this is no less
than 20 to 90 volts.

He uses them from 56 to 90 volts. I observed a
competely formed sinewave at something like 20 V rail
voltage, ~70 ma bias.

Then what are you hearing that's wrong?

The PA-3 series and PC19 are completely different. Call
him and ask about it.

Waster of time - the stock Hafler will pass a straight
wire bypass test. I'm sure you've never done one.

A new stock 200 has a distinctly electronic sound to it.

Not at all.

The 220 is better, but still still flawed.

Nope.

But those are subjective conclusions.

Not really. They are based on fear, uncertainty, doubt and
egregiously-flawed listening evaluations.

The now 20 yr old Hillig GX mod cures these problems.

What a gig! Curing healthy amplifiers.

That mod consisted of radical
surgery to the PC19. Half the parts removed, trace cuts,
jumpers everywhere. He was not selling complete cards
back then.

Hafler knew what he was doing better than that.

Have you ever heard massed strings through a 200?

Of course. Choirs, orchestras, rock, you name it. Speakers = Large
Magnepans.

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf describes some tests that
were done in the same place by some of the same people, but in other tests,
other amplifiers including the DH 200 were tested.

Have you heard the DH-110 preamp?

Of course. That was the "house preamp" at the test site mentioned above.

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , Wink wrote:

I'm not nervious - I'm too relaxed to worry about yet
another disciple of Walt Jung who thinks he has all the
answers.

Say what?

You said Pooge, right?
I did the Pooge 5 mods to the Phillips DAC 960, published in AA in 92.
I also built a Jung line stage using the LT1122 and 1010. That's it.
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/A_Fast_Line...ine_Driver.pdf

It is point to point wired. I have the voltage regulator pins soldered
right to the IC pins. It seems to be very transparent, but I know
there are probably hundreds of good line stage circuits. Other than
that, I've no idea were Jung stands in the Pantheon of Audio Savants.

It would be interesting to make a list of World's best Audio minds,
past and present. Are you familiar with Dale Pitcher of Intuitive
Design, formerly with Essence, and his Summit, Delta Summit, and
Denali speakers?


I'd like to drive my amps with a tube stage using the 6H30(p) "super
tube". I used that tube in Monarchy's SE-160 and 250 amps and liked
the sound. Seems to be consistent, cheap, and available.

I refuse to pay 300 bucks for NOS 12AX7s, etc. -- believe it or not.
On the other hand, it may be a more fruitful extravagance than BGs.
Pick your megabuck caramel coated colouration.


I got some tele's I have to unload. I also got some Black Beauty's

greg

[Wink]

I'm not nervious - I'm too relaxed to worry about yet
another disciple of Walt Jung who thinks he has all the
answers.

Say what?

You said Pooge, right?
I did the Pooge 5 mods to the Phillips DAC 960, published in AA in 92.
I also built a Jung line stage using the LT1122 and 1010. That's it.
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/A_Fast_Line...ine_Driver.pdf

It is point to point wired. I have the voltage regulator pins soldered
right to the IC pins. It seems to be very transparent, but I know
there are probably hundreds of good line stage circuits. Other than
that, I've no idea were Jung stands in the Pantheon of Audio Savants.

It would be interesting to make a list of World's best Audio minds,
past and present. Are you familiar with Dale Pitcher of Intuitive
Design, formerly with Essence, and his Summit, Delta Summit, and
Denali speakers?


I'd like to drive my amps with a tube stage using the 6H30(p) "super
tube". I used that tube in Monarchy's SE-160 and 250 amps and liked
the sound. Seems to be consistent, cheap, and available.

I refuse to pay 300 bucks for NOS 12AX7s, etc. -- believe it or not.
On the other hand, it may be a more fruitful extravagance than BGs.
Pick your megabuck caramel coated colouration.

[Wink]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:52:57 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Wink" wrote in message


The pa-3 series cards work over a very wide voltage range
Arny.

A wide range for an application like this is no less than 20 to 90 volts.

He uses them from 56 to 90 volts. I observed a
competely formed sinewave at something like 20 V rail
voltage, ~70 ma bias.

Then what are you hearing that's wrong?

The PA-3 series and PC19 are completely different. Call
him and ask about it.

Waster of time - the stock Hafler will pass a straight wire bypass test. I'm
sure you've never done one.

A new stock 200 has a distinctly electronic sound to it. The 220 is
better, but still still flawed. But those are subjective
conclusions. The now 20 yr old Hillig GX mod cures these problems.
That mod consisted of radical surgery to the PC19. Half the parts
removed, trace cuts, jumpers everywhere. He was not selling complete
cards back then.

Have you ever heard massed strings through a 200?

Have you heard the DH-110 preamp?

[Eeyore]

jakdedert wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.

Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break in *wisdom* is myth.

But the much-vaunted magic caps need to be broken in...says so on their
website. OTOH, I can't imagine why their 'magic' comes in sporadic
bursts. Sounds like an intermittent problem to me. Sporadic bursts of
magic? Good thing Mr. Wink's not a 'subjectivist'.

I'm wondering if it's actually sporadic burst of instability ! Could correlate
with the short wire being troublesome (the amp sees less inductance).

Graham

[Eeyore]

Wink wrote:

It seems that BGs are notorious for have a decidedly chaotic break-in
curve.

Says who ?


That one really makes you wonder.

There is NO break-in mechanism in any capacitor. Any more than for a resistor,
transistor, wire, PCB, relay or connector.

It's simply more gobbledegook pseudo-science from the audiophools.

Graham

[Wink]

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf describes some tests that
were done in the same place by some of the same people, but in other tests,
other amplifiers including the DH 200 were tested.

Have you heard the DH-110 preamp?

Of course. That was the "house preamp" at the test site mentioned above.

Mmmm...Well, I built one of those kits years ago. AA did a pre-amp
shoot-out, concluding "on violins the DH-110 sounded like sawing
through wires". I concurred completely. Awful.

So I sent it to Hafler for a fix. Upon return, it was still sawing
through wires. The DH-101 was much superior.

Bruce -- I think he has Orions, which I almost built. I heard them,
driven by ATI amps and a Lexicon DAC. Amazing soundstaging performance
on simply miked material, but hard and dry.

[Arny Krueger]

"Wink" wrote in message


Well--possibly. I spent an eternity searching for more
conventionally priced caps. I was quite ready to install
some decent comp grade screw tops. You supplied a
Panasonic link, which are almost certainly splendid.

Caps are a commodity item, there are a number of manufacturers of excellent
product, Panasonic being one of them.

I talked to quite a few industry folks, none of whom sell
them. I do not recall such incredible wide-spread
enthusiasm over a single passive component like we've
seen with the BGs. Of course, history records many such
mass reactions to bad ideas. But it was actually Martin
Colloms articles that pushed me over the edge.

Colloms is well-known for his over-the-top claims. He is capable of good
engineering, but he gets excited at times, it seems.

It is a rare caprice for me. My total system cost even
with the BGs is probably less than 2500 bucks. There is a
lot of diy in there, including my speakers.

I can think of a lot of good things to do with $800 - 1K, instead of golden
capacitors.

[jakdedert]

Wink wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:54:25 -0500, jakdedert
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:
snip
I don't think so. They are starting to break in, and
yielding some magic in sporadic bursts.
Sounds like a mental state change, to me. Much break in *wisdom* is myth.


But the much-vaunted magic caps need to be broken in...says so on their
website. OTOH, I can't imagine why their 'magic' comes in sporadic
bursts. Sounds like an intermittent problem to me. Sporadic bursts of
magic? Good thing Mr. Wink's not a 'subjectivist'.

jak
It seems that BGs are notorious for have a decidedly chaotic break-in
curve. That one really makes you wonder.

I don't have to wonder. I didn't pay $200 apiece for them....

jak

[Wink]

I can think of a lot of good things to do with $800 - 1K, instead of golden
capacitors.

Probably so. A learning experience -- believe me.