Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
I'm looking for basic info on Fender vintage guitar amplifiers such as used
on 6V6 push-pull designs, such as "deluxe 5E3" "Super Champ". Specifically I would like to know primary and secondary number of turns, rated impedances, primary inductance and core size. Web links would be most helpful. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
"Bret Ludwig" wrote in
oups.com: Geoff C wrote: I'm looking for basic info on Fender vintage guitar amplifiers such as used on 6V6 push-pull designs, such as "deluxe 5E3" "Super Champ". Specifically I would like to know primary and secondary number of turns, rated impedances, primary inductance and core size. Web links would be most helpful. Best bet is to buy one and test it. There are many who have done so but they are not going to publish their work. Fender amps after CBS use Schumacher transformers and Fender doesn't own any of the designs, Schumacher does. Before that they used mostly Triad OEM types. You can now buy Fender transformers at very reasonable prices, at least wholesale, from several sources. I should add I am in Australia and if I was gonna buy a Fender tranny I may as well use that one in my homebrew amp rather than wind one... |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
Geoff C wrote:
I'm looking for basic info on Fender vintage guitar amplifiers such as used on 6V6 push-pull designs, such as "deluxe 5E3" "Super Champ". Specifically I would like to know primary and secondary number of turns, rated impedances, primary inductance and core size. Web links would be most helpful. You can find some basic specs with a little googling: http://www.unclespot.com/FenderXFMRs.html The rest of the stuff.... these were not anything special, things like primary inductance were probably measured on a sample, not spec'd by the OEM. Turns ratio? Probably as few as they could get away with. The important spec is that little shim for the core gap. The old ones would be paper insulated, the newer ones on a plastic bobbin. You could probably do as well just by pulling a transformer out of a junk console radio with EL84's. I really can't see that even with the shipping costs to Oz, that you'd be better off trying to build one than buying off the shelf. -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
Bret Ludwig wrote:
Fender amps after CBS use Schumacher transformers and Fender doesn't own any of the designs, Schumacher does. The designs are generic and a number of places (at least 3 I can think of, offhand) other than Schumacher make or have made Fender knockoffs. -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
Ned Carlson wrote in
: Geoff C wrote: I'm looking for basic info on Fender vintage guitar amplifiers such as used on 6V6 push-pull designs, such as "deluxe 5E3" "Super Champ". Specifically I would like to know primary and secondary number of turns, rated impedances, primary inductance and core size. Web links would be most helpful. You can find some basic specs with a little googling: http://www.unclespot.com/FenderXFMRs.html Thanks, saw that site but missed the bit on OP trannies The rest of the stuff.... these were not anything special, things like primary inductance were probably measured on a sample, not spec'd by the OEM. Turns ratio? Probably as few as they could get away with. The important spec is that little shim for the core gap. Does not matter for PP. The old ones would be paper insulated, the newer ones on a plastic bobbin. You could probably do as well just by pulling a transformer out of a junk console radio with EL84's. I really can't see that even with the shipping costs to Oz, that you'd be better off trying to build one than buying off the shelf. True, but I already have access to laminations, bobbins, wire, turns counter, mylar tape, etc. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
"Bret Ludwig" wrote in news:1162525641.273230.70860
@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com: Geoff C wrote: You can find some basic specs with a little googling: http://www.unclespot.com/FenderXFMRs.html Thanks, saw that site but missed the bit on OP trannies The rest of the stuff.... these were not anything special, things like primary inductance were probably measured on a sample, not spec'd by the OEM. Turns ratio? Probably as few as they could get away with. The important spec is that little shim for the core gap. Does not matter for PP. Actually it does. EI lam transformers always have "some" effective gap, and well designed ones have a definite and repeatable one. The tradeoff is the more gap, the lower the primary inductance, and bass response goes to hell, Yes, there is always a small airgap with EI, I know that but this is a guitar amp and so long as the PI and ouputs are balances well enough, the DC is not much problem. The first tranny I tried saturated badly at more than 5 watts in push pull, so i know I need more iron. I will trade off the primary inductance with air gap should there be any sign of LF saturation, but that will be done on an empirical basis. You could probably do as well just by pulling a transformer out of a junk console radio with EL84's. I really can't see that even with the shipping costs to Oz, that you'd be better off trying to build one than buying off the shelf. True, but I already have access to laminations, bobbins, wire, turns counter, mylar tape, etc. You might as well start with some arbitrary assumptions and work one up yourself to taste. Yep, already worked out I need about 2300 primary turns on my 1 1/2" core, which should do a 50 watt design if I decide later on too. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
"Geoff C" Yes, there is always a small airgap with EI, I know that but this is a guitar amp and so long as the PI and ouputs are balances well enough, the DC is not much problem. The first tranny I tried saturated badly at more than 5 watts in push pull, so i know I need more iron. ** What ********. Power output is not determined by core saturation. Core saturation only sets a low frequency power limit. ......... Phil |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
"Bret Ludwig" wrote in
oups.com: This is a very incomplete list but looks about right. Note the high 8500 ohm primary Z of the Deluxe and princeton types. Most of the old Fisher and Scott pulls we used as replacements were lower and that made the poor little tubes work harder...they didn't seem to have any shorter lives though. The loundess was higher and no one bitched (au contraire..) FENDER TRANSFORMER WIRE DIAGRAMS AND SPECIFICATIONS FENDER OUTPUT TRANSFORMER WIRING FENDER OUTPUT TRANSFORMER SPECS PART# MOUNTING HEIGHT LENGTH WIDTH WATTS PRIMARY SEC LBS 022921 1 ¾" 1 ¾" 1 3/8" 1 3/8" 3.5 14,500 4 6 OZ 022905 2 3/8" 1 5/8" 1 7/8" 1 7/8" 8 7000 4 12 OZ 022913 2 13/16" 2" 2 5/16" 2" 12 8500 8 1 LB 041318 3 1/8" 2 ¼" 2 ¾" 2 ¼" 25 8500 8 1.5 LB 022848 3 9/16" 2 5/8" 3 1/8" 2 5/8" 50 4000 4 2 LB 018343 2 3/16 X 3 7/16 3 7/16 4 1/8" 3 5/8" 50 4000 2,4,8 6 LB 022871 2 3/16 X 3 7/16 3 7/16 4 1/8" 3 5/8" 40 4000 4 6 LB 022855 2 3/16 X 3 7/16 3 7/16 4 1/8" 3 5/8" 50 4000 2 6 LB 022899 2 3/16 X 3 7/16 3 7/16 4 1/8" 3 7/8" 100 2000 4 7 LB FENDER CHOKES PART# MOUNTING HEIGHT LENGTH WIDTH LBS 125C3A 2" 1 3/8" 1 11/16" 1 ½" 6 OZ 125C1A 2 13/16" 2" 2 5/16" 2" 1 LB FENDER POWER TRANSFORMER WIRING FENDER POWER TRANSFORMER SPECS PART# MOUNTING HEIGHT LENGTH WIDTH WATTS MAIN SEC HEATER HEATER LBS TDPT-SU 2 1/4 x 2 1/2 2 7/8 3 3/8 3 25 614Vac 6.3V 5V 4.2 LB TDPT-LD - - - - 25 614Vac 6.3V 5V 4.2 LB 125P1B 2 ½ X 2" 3 ¼" 3" 2 ½" 6 - 18 650V / 70MA 6.3V / 2A 5V / 2A 4 LB 041316 2 7/8 X 2 ¼" 3 7/8" 3 3/8" 2 7/16" 25 660V / 120MA 6.3V / 3A 5V / 3A 5 LB 022798 3 3/8 X 2 ¾" 3 3/8" 4 1/8" 3 3/8" 50 700V / 140MA 6.3V / 4A 5V / 3A 6 LB 022756 3 ¾ X 3" 3 7/8 4 ½" 3 ¾" 100 690V / 310MA 6.3V / 6A NONE 8 LB Thanks for the info. I've seen most of this now. I would love to know how many turns/volt the old designs used though, and for that i would need to know number of turns, or even an inductance value. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
Geoff C wrote:
Does not matter for PP. D'oh! I saw "Champ" and just assumed it was single-ended. True, but I already have access to laminations, bobbins, wire, turns counter, mylar tape, etc. Lucky you. I would note that if you want to make something like a 1950's transformer, plastic bobbins and mylar tape are out. That doesn't mean you can't make a nice transformer with a plastic bobbin and insulation, though. -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
"François Yves Le Gal" "Phil Allison" : Power output is not determined by core saturation. Core saturation only sets a low frequency power limit. If a transformer can deliver 100 w at 200 Hz and only 10 w at 20 Hz because of core saturation, power output is determined by core saturation. ** What asinine, Frog logic ********. ........ Phil |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
"Bret Ludwig" wrote in
oups.com: Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Nov 10, 8:26 am). On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 05:37:39 GMT, Geoff C wrote: Does not matter for PP. It does if you do have some DC surimposed when it comes to mains transformers or unbalanced (ie.. shifted relative to 0) DC voltage for output xformers. Transformers don't like DC - toroids don't like it at all; they can saturate quite easily, leading to poor power coupling as well as dirty sound - which can be OK for a guitar amp which is after all an instrument. Reply » Rate this post: Except that the distortion sound of a DC-saturated toroid nay not be at all what a guitar player wants. remember, they weant a very specific type of distortion, not just any old kind. Slit or otherwise less-saturable toroid cores are available but they are expensive and a much larger core must be used as well. I found the sound of a saturating core really bad. It was happening at the low frequency end with my unknown 16k:8k transformer. Should have a better tranny to try soon |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
On 5 Nov 2006 15:26:42 +1100, Geoff C wrote:
"Bret Ludwig" wrote in roups.com: Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Nov 10, 8:26 am). On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 05:37:39 GMT, Geoff C wrote: Does not matter for PP. It does if you do have some DC surimposed when it comes to mains transformers or unbalanced (ie.. shifted relative to 0) DC voltage for output xformers. Transformers don't like DC - toroids don't like it at all; they can saturate quite easily, leading to poor power coupling as well as dirty sound - which can be OK for a guitar amp which is after all an instrument. Reply » Rate this post: Except that the distortion sound of a DC-saturated toroid nay not be at all what a guitar player wants. remember, they weant a very specific type of distortion, not just any old kind. Slit or otherwise less-saturable toroid cores are available but they are expensive and a much larger core must be used as well. I found the sound of a saturating core really bad. It was happening at the low frequency end with my unknown 16k:8k transformer. Should have a better tranny to try soon I had trouble with this site just now but this guy used to have some xformer info on the old time Fender stuff: www.hoffmanamps.com If you are experimenting you could try the Hammond 125 series (Canadian) which is intended as an inexpensive, universal type which means you can swaps the leads about and get different ratios, loads and tube matches. These are cheap, reliable and sound great in small guitar amps for about $30usd. I didn't notice any earthshaking difference in sound other than the bass sound of the instrument kind of shifted up or down slightly as you tried different taps. The tubes never overheated or glowed or burst or seemed to act any differently. My understanding and approach isn't exactly scientific though. Good luck. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
|
|||
|
|||
Info on Fender OP trannies?
ralf wrote in
: On 5 Nov 2006 15:26:42 +1100, Geoff C wrote: "Bret Ludwig" wrote in groups.com: Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Nov 10, 8:26 am). On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 05:37:39 GMT, Geoff C wrote: Does not matter for PP. It does if you do have some DC surimposed when it comes to mains transformers or unbalanced (ie.. shifted relative to 0) DC voltage for output xformers. Transformers don't like DC - toroids don't like it at all; they can saturate quite easily, leading to poor power coupling as well as dirty sound - which can be OK for a guitar amp which is after all an instrument. Reply » Rate this post: Except that the distortion sound of a DC-saturated toroid nay not be at all what a guitar player wants. remember, they weant a very specific type of distortion, not just any old kind. Slit or otherwise less-saturable toroid cores are available but they are expensive and a much larger core must be used as well. I found the sound of a saturating core really bad. It was happening at the low frequency end with my unknown 16k:8k transformer. Should have a better tranny to try soon I had trouble with this site just now but this guy used to have some xformer info on the old time Fender stuff: www.hoffmanamps.com If you are experimenting you could try the Hammond 125 series (Canadian) which is intended as an inexpensive, universal type which means you can swaps the leads about and get different ratios, loads and tube matches. These are cheap, reliable and sound great in small guitar amps for about $30usd. I didn't notice any earthshaking difference in sound other than the bass sound of the instrument kind of shifted up or down slightly as you tried different taps. The tubes never overheated or glowed or burst or seemed to act any differently. My understanding and approach isn't exactly scientific though. Good luck. Thnaks. Some interesting stuff but not quite everything. Anyway, I'm not trying to make a Fender clone, just get a starting point to check my design against before the winding starts. I'm aiming for a 36H primary inductance and 8K:4,8 ohms. Thats about 2300 turns on my core. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
CD-Text Info Important to Radio Stations? | Pro Audio | |||
Capacitance issues with Fender stereo Y guitar cable?? | Pro Audio | |||
Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info? | Pro Audio | |||
WANTED: INFO, SCHEMATIC OR 10" WOOFERS for JENSEN TF-3 SPEAKERS | Pro Audio | |||
WANTED: INFO, SCHEMATIC OR 10" WOOFERS for JENSEN TF-3 SPEAKERS | Tech |