What is the effect of jitter on the size of the stereo
image? Several users of the Apogee Big Ben master
clock have noticed a reduction in the image size. Some
believe it is a result of more jitter, others believe
it is the result of less jitter. Do the
jitter-related artifacts cause more out-of-phase noise
producing a wider, taller image? Or do they mask
low-level spatial information, shrinking the image?
Has anyone who has measured jitter (JA, are you
listening?) been able to correlate jitter levels to
image size?

Regards,
Tip

On 13 May 2005 15:45:44 GMT, "Tip" wrote:

What is the effect of jitter on the size of the stereo
image? Several users of the Apogee Big Ben master
clock have noticed a reduction in the image size. Some
believe it is a result of more jitter, others believe
it is the result of less jitter. Do the
jitter-related artifacts cause more out-of-phase noise
producing a wider, taller image? Or do they mask
low-level spatial information, shrinking the image?
Has anyone who has measured jitter (JA, are you
listening?) been able to correlate jitter levels to
image size?

Regards,
Tip

My experience with jittery cd players, that is, simple normal cd
players, is as follows:

They produce a hard, harsh, grainy, grey and flat sound. Utterly
unnatural. The sound image does not become greater or smaller, but
flatter.

My experience with good cd players with good clocks:

They produce a very fine sound, in good recordings quite natural, not
at all fatiguing, and in quite a few times preferable to lp. The sound
image does not become greater or smaller.

My experience with old, undithered and jittery recordings, both on cd
and on "digitally mastered" lp:

They produces at first a huge, impressive sound and soundstage, but
after 5 minutes of listening the sound becomes flat and gray and
grainy etc. Also the placement of instruments seems to have a
stochastic quality. E.g. listening to Yo Yo Ma's recording of the Bach
suites the sound image of the cello seems to follow a normal
distribution. The instrument isn't separated from the background and
seems to become vaguer further away from its musical center of
gravity.

This vagueness, very unlike a real cello, is remarkable.

Violins on jittery recordings invariably sound edgy. Again, unlike the
real thing.

Ernesto.
"You don't have to learn science if you don't feel
like it. So you can forget the whole business if
it is too much mental strain, which it usually is."

Richard Feynman

"Ernst Raedecker" wrote in message
...
On 13 May 2005 15:45:44 GMT, "Tip" wrote:

What is the effect of jitter on the size of the stereo
image? Several users of the Apogee Big Ben master
clock have noticed a reduction in the image size. Some
believe it is a result of more jitter, others believe
it is the result of less jitter. Do the
jitter-related artifacts cause more out-of-phase noise
producing a wider, taller image? Or do they mask
low-level spatial information, shrinking the image?
Has anyone who has measured jitter (JA, are you
listening?) been able to correlate jitter levels to
image size?

Regards,
Tip

My experience with jittery cd players, that is, simple normal cd
players, is as follows:

They produce a hard, harsh, grainy, grey and flat sound. Utterly
unnatural. The sound image does not become greater or smaller, but
flatter.

My experience with good cd players with good clocks:

They produce a very fine sound, in good recordings quite natural, not
at all fatiguing, and in quite a few times preferable to lp. The sound
image does not become greater or smaller.

My experience with old, undithered and jittery recordings, both on cd
and on "digitally mastered" lp:

They produces at first a huge, impressive sound and soundstage, but
after 5 minutes of listening the sound becomes flat and gray and
grainy etc. Also the placement of instruments seems to have a
stochastic quality. E.g. listening to Yo Yo Ma's recording of the Bach
suites the sound image of the cello seems to follow a normal
distribution. The instrument isn't separated from the background and
seems to become vaguer further away from its musical center of
gravity.

This vagueness, very unlike a real cello, is remarkable.

Violins on jittery recordings invariably sound edgy. Again, unlike the
real thing.


From my listening experience with the addition of a de-jitterer (the AA DTI
Pro) between my transport and Proceed DA, I'd concur with the above almost
entirely. However, I also observed more of a sense of "flatness" along with
the other characteristics with jitter present. At the time I was using
time-and-phase-aligned speakers (Thiel 2 2's) in the finest sound
environment I have ever had. There was nothing to obstruct natural imaging,
and no sidewall reflections, and thus I had a very fine 3D soundfield in
front of me.

Tip wrote:
Has anyone who has measured jitter (JA, are you
listening?) been able to correlate jitter levels to
image size?

The effect of jitter on perceived acoustic objects is
difficult to quantify in general terms, Tip, as it depends
on the spectrum and level of the jitter components. However,
from my experience and that of Paul Miller, the kind of jitter
that makes soundstage objects appear larger, perhaps more
distant/diffuse, is the random low-frequency jitter typical
of the Meridian 518. My review of this unit is posted in
Stereophile's free on-line archives at
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/367, but I
published its jitter performance as part of another review.
I'll post the URL when I have found it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Ernst Raedecker" wrote in message
...
On 13 May 2005 15:45:44 GMT, "Tip"
wrote:

What is the effect of jitter on the size of the
stereo
image? Several users of the Apogee Big Ben master
clock have noticed a reduction in the image size.
Some
believe it is a result of more jitter, others believe
it is the result of less jitter.
My experience with old, undithered and jittery
recordings, both on cd
and on "digitally mastered" lp:

They produces at first a huge, impressive sound and
soundstage, but
after 5 minutes of listening the sound becomes flat
and gray and
grainy etc. Also the placement of instruments seems
to have a
stochastic quality. E.g. listening to Yo Yo Ma's
recording of the Bach
suites the sound image of the cello seems to follow a
normal
distribution. The instrument isn't separated from the
background and
seems to become vaguer further away from its musical
center of
gravity.

Hi Ernesto,

My experience was comparing 1-meter against 10-meter
Apogee Wide-Eye AES digital interconnects between my
digital pre-amp and digital amps. The 10-meter
produced the most gigantic soundstage I have ever
heard: wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling, as if the
speakers were out of phase (they weren't), yet while
still retaining a center image. I noticed a lack of
solidity and impact, and a hazy sound. The 1-meter
shrunk the soundstage down and the image became more
solid and clearer, with greater impact.

I do have a couple of Big Bens, one between a Proceed
CDD transport and a Tact RCS 2.2X, and the other in
dual AES mode between the RCS and the Tact S2150 amps
for the mains and dual subs. But it is rare when I can
hear a difference with them in and out of the loop, and
the difference is slightly greater solidity and impact,
and perhaps a slightly smaller image, when they are in
the loop, but I need to have both BB's in the loop to
hear it.

Regards,
Tip

Tip-

I've always felt reducing jitter would improve low level details which
would improve imaging. In the case of the BB, I think it helps reduce
jitter, but in stock form, it also introduces noise which can negate
it's positve effects. Aloha, Dan