I am considering the HSU VTF 2, HSU STF 2 and the Velodyne CHT 10 or 12. All
are in the range of $400 to $500. My room is 12" by 18" with my kitchen
behind it. I will use the sub 75% for music and 25% for Home theater. My
speakers are bookshelf Paradigm reference studio 20's. I am looking for a
tight punchy bass as opposed to a loud or booming type of bass. Am I better
off with Velodyne or HSU.

Thanks

If you can stretch an extra couple of hundred dollars, I'd suggest you
consider picking up a used Paradigm Servo-15. I've seen them around for
between $700 and $800. One of the very best subs available, imho, and it
works magic with the Studio 20s.

Bruce

"Randy and Michelle" wrote in message
news:esTpc.12685$qA.1542604@attbi_s51...
I am considering the HSU VTF 2, HSU STF 2 and the Velodyne CHT 10 or 12.
All
are in the range of $400 to $500. My room is 12" by 18" with my kitchen
behind it. I will use the sub 75% for music and 25% for Home theater. My
speakers are bookshelf Paradigm reference studio 20's. I am looking for a
tight punchy bass as opposed to a loud or booming type of bass. Am I
better
off with Velodyne or HSU.

Thanks

I would recommend the HSU. Not because it sounds "better" than the
Velodyne but because I had two velodynes that failed. The amplifier
failed and in one case damaged the driver. Because they were over three
years old (out of warranty) Velodyne refused to repair one of them until
i became "nasty". Then they repaired it for $100 but they packaged it
poorly and I got it back damaged. It worked (sort of) but the on/off
switch was broken and the clips that held the front panel on were broken
off. When the second unit failed, I just disconnected the amplifier and
I use the driver with a separate amplifier. In general, their customer
service stinks!

-MIKE

Randy and Michelle wrote:

I am considering the HSU VTF 2, HSU STF 2 and the Velodyne CHT 10 or 12. All
are in the range of $400 to $500. My room is 12" by 18" with my kitchen
behind it. I will use the sub 75% for music and 25% for Home theater. My
speakers are bookshelf Paradigm reference studio 20's. I am looking for a
tight punchy bass as opposed to a loud or booming type of bass. Am I better
off with Velodyne or HSU.

Thanks

I have reviewed a number of Hsu and Velodyne subs (plus
other brands, of course) and on a dollar per dollar basis
the Hsu versions were better.

Indeed, I once did an AB comparison between a $500 VTF-2
(which I still keep on hand for reference purposes) and a
Velodyne servo model, the $1300 FSR-12 (which I like very
much, indeed, and still have in my living-room system), and
down to 25 Hz they were indistinguishable. Below that
frequency, the Velodyne was superior. With nearly all music
and home-theater source material they were interchangeable.
With test tones the Velodyne could play a bit louder at 20
Hz and the Hsu was able to go a bit louder (still cleanly)
at 31.5 Hz.

I have also compared various other Hsu models (as well as
big tube-shaped models from SVS and the marvelous Paradigm
Servo 15) to Velodyne HGS-12, HGS-15, and F1800RII models,
and for the most part all were on performance par down to
the frequencies where one might have slightly deeper
extension.

That is not so say that the servo units were not better with
stuff like pure, very low-frequency test tones, but with
music they were all working very similarly, provided they
were able to reach down to similar frequencies equally well
with test-tone inputs.

I have no idea how the newer CHT Velodynes perform, but in
an AB test I did some time back a Hsu VTF-2 massacred a
non-servo Velodyne CT-12 - both in terms of max output and
cleanness, particularly below 45 Hz. The Hsu was even able
to keep up with a big non-servo CT-15 in terms of practical,
clean performance, although the far larger Velodyne was able
to go louder. This is not the first sub that little VTF-2
has massacred in a comparison test I did, by the way. It is
a remarkable device.

So while the newer Velodynes may be terrific (nobody admires
Velodyne more than I do, since I own two of their servo
models, anyway and have given those and other servo models
strong thumbs-up reviews), the VTF-2 is a sure-thing winner
purchase.

The STF-2 appears to be a simplified version of that unit,
although I am not absolutely sure about that. I recently
reviewed the smaller STF-1 and was wowed by its ability.
Indeed, that $300 Hsu pulverized a competing $500 model from
a highly regarded company's otherwise very fine performing
sub/sat package. The latter results will show up in one of
my The Sensible Sound reviews in a month or so, and I will
at least say that that company's sub was not chopped liver.
It was just inferior to the Hsu.

Incidentally, the only company that I for sure know can
match Hsu on a bang-for-buck basis is SVS.

Howard Ferstler

MIKE wrote:

I would recommend the HSU. Not because it sounds "better" than the
Velodyne but because I had two velodynes that failed. The amplifier
failed and in one case damaged the driver. Because they were over three
years old (out of warranty) Velodyne refused to repair one of them until
i became "nasty"...
======================================

Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it, part of
the warranty is already history. The build date is on the serial number
label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a file with serial
numbers and corresponding build dates.

-GP

MIKE wrote:
I would recommend the HSU. Not because it sounds "better" than the
Velodyne but because I had two velodynes that failed. The amplifier
failed and in one case damaged the driver. Because they were over three
years old (out of warranty) Velodyne refused to repair one of them until
i became "nasty". Then they repaired it for $100 but they packaged it
poorly and I got it back damaged. It worked (sort of) but the on/off
switch was broken and the clips that held the front panel on were broken
off. When the second unit failed, I just disconnected the amplifier and
I use the driver with a separate amplifier. In general, their customer
service stinks!

FWIW, I've had a Velodyne F100 since around 1996, and it's worked like a
champ the whole time.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

Howard Ferstler wrote:



Randy and Michelle wrote:

I am considering the HSU VTF 2, HSU STF 2 and the Velodyne CHT 10 or 12.
All
are in the range of $400 to $500. My room is 12" by 18" with my kitchen
behind it. I will use the sub 75% for music and 25% for Home theater. My
speakers are bookshelf Paradigm reference studio 20's. I am looking for a
tight punchy bass as opposed to a loud or booming type of bass. Am I better
off with Velodyne or HSU.

Thanks

I have reviewed a number of Hsu and Velodyne subs (plus
other brands, of course) and on a dollar per dollar basis
the Hsu versions were better.

Generally speaking at the lower end of the price scale I have found this to be
the case too. If you do a little searching you'll most likely find comparable
performance numbers for some of the devices you mention in older issues of
Sound & Vision.

Steven Sullivan wrote:



MIKE wrote:
I would recommend the HSU. Not because it sounds "better" than the
Velodyne but because I had two velodynes that failed. The amplifier
failed and in one case damaged the driver. Because they were over three
years old (out of warranty) Velodyne refused to repair one of them until
i became "nasty". Then they repaired it for $100 but they packaged it
poorly and I got it back damaged. It worked (sort of) but the on/off
switch was broken and the clips that held the front panel on were broken
off. When the second unit failed, I just disconnected the amplifier and
I use the driver with a separate amplifier. In general, their customer
service stinks!

FWIW, I've had a Velodyne F100 since around 1996, and it's worked like a
champ the whole time.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

I have heard from time to time that Velodyne subwoofer products have had
reliability issues. However, FWIW, I've used an HGS-15 in my bedromm system for
several years without trouble. I've also tested any number of Velodyne products
(subwoofers and satellite speakers) and have yet to find one DOA, broken in any
way, or one that failed during testing. BTW my testing process red-lines
subwoofers (tests maximum SPL.)

While these same observations can be said of many manufacturers they are not
universally true. But on the whole, as far as customer/user feedback I'd say
that I've heard more overall complaints about servo-subwoofers (Paradigm and
Velodyne) than any other type.

OTOH I tend to get mostly questions/comments regarding problems than any other
single issue, so it might be wise not to assign any statistical significance to
it.

Gene Poon wrote:

Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it, part of
the warranty is already history. The build date is on the serial number
label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a file with serial
numbers and corresponding build dates.

My hair kind of stood up when I read your comments, and I
could actually see exclamation marks rising out of my ears
towards the ceiling. I am not sure that typical state laws
would let this kind of warranty ploy fly. It is almost
universal for warranties to start ticking when the sales
ticket is printed and not when the product is built. Nobody
could get away with what you claim.

Howard Ferstler

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
news:98Lqc.6446$zw.4039@attbi_s01...
Gene Poon wrote:

Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it, part of
the warranty is already history. The build date is on the serial number
label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a file with serial
numbers and corresponding build dates.

My hair kind of stood up when I read your comments, and I
could actually see exclamation marks rising out of my ears
towards the ceiling. I am not sure that typical state laws
would let this kind of warranty ploy fly. It is almost
universal for warranties to start ticking when the sales
ticket is printed and not when the product is built. Nobody
could get away with what you claim.

Howard Ferstler

I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point for
warranty coverage. It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of dates.

Randy

Bruce Abrams wrote:

If you can stretch an extra couple of hundred dollars, I'd suggest you
consider picking up a used Paradigm Servo-15. I've seen them around for
between $700 and $800. One of the very best subs available, imho, and it
works magic with the Studio 20s.

I reviewed this sub in issue 71 of The Sensible Sound. In
practical terms it is equal in performance to the Velodyne
F1800RII and Hsu TN1220 models that I reviewed in issue 67.
I actually own the two latter units, but I would not at all
be unsatisfied with the Paradigm as a replacement for
either. Top-tier subs tend to sound a lot alike.

My only problem with the Servo 15 is that its front-to-back
depth is considerable (over two feet) and so it would
protrude into one's listening room more than either the big
Velodyne or the big Hsu. That might bother some people.

Howard Ferstler

In article jWNqc.1289$Vv.107667@attbi_s51,
Randy wrote:

Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it, part of
the warranty is already history. The build date is on the serial number
label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a file with serial
numbers and corresponding build dates.

My hair kind of stood up when I read your comments, and I
could actually see exclamation marks rising out of my ears
towards the ceiling. I am not sure that typical state laws
would let this kind of warranty ploy fly. It is almost
universal for warranties to start ticking when the sales
ticket is printed and not when the product is built. Nobody
could get away with what you claim.

I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point for
warranty coverage.

Agreed.

It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of dates.

Velodyne's own customer-support site states the following:

"Velodyne Acoustics, Inc. warrants all home theater and full-range
speaker products for a period of five years and all powered
subwoofers products and accessories for a period of two years. All
Velodyne products have a warranty from the date of purchase against
defects in materials and workmanship when purchased through any
authorized Velodyne dealer."

The key here might be the phrase "authorized Velodyne dealer". Most
manufacturer-to-consumer warranty arrangements kick in at the point of
"first retail sale" - the point at which the manufacturer, or one of
their authorized retailers or distributers, turns control of the
product over to the consumer. The warranty may or may not be
transferrable to subsequent owners (a "full" warranty is, a "limited"
warranty may not be).

The situation is often different if you (the consumer) buy a product
from someone who is _not_ an authorized dealer - e.g. a grey-market
seller or importer, or second-hand. In cases like this, the
manufacturer might do any of several things:

- Declare that the grey market dealer's _purchase_ of the product was
the "original retail sale", that you are the second owner, and that
the manufacturer's warranty (being non-transferrable to a second
owner) is completely void. Velodyne is not doing this, as far as I
can see.

- Decide to treat the non-authorized dealer as if they're an
authorized dealer, as long as the product had not actually been
opened or used by the non-authorized dealer, and declare the
warranty to start from the date of your purchase. Velodyne isn't
doing this, either.

- Take a middle ground - state that your warranty is valid, but that
it'll be dated from an earlier point in time (either the non-
authorized dealer's purchase date if that's known, or from the
manufacturing date). This is apparently what Velodyne is doing.

So - if you buy a Velodyne product from an authorized dealer, the
warranty applies from your date of purchase. If you buy one from a
grey-market or other non-authorized dealer, it sounds as if they've
chosen to honor the warranty starting from the build date.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

(Dave Platt) wrote in message


I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point for
warranty coverage.

Agreed.

It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of dates.

=======================================

I just contacted Velodyne directly about this.

The two-year warranty clock on their subwoofers begins ticking on the
DATE OF PURCHASE. But the build date is always checked before
authorization is issued for return of product for repair, and Velodyne
implies that warranty claims have been rejected if too long a time
appears to have elapsed between build date and the claimed sale date
to the end user.

The reason why the build date is always checked is to verify
"reasonableness" of the warranty claim. Just as speculation: perhaps
they have had warranty claim issues with units sold to non-authorized
dealers at a discount after being discontinued; from old stock after
an authorized dealer had closed its doors; with used units sold as
"new"; or with falsification of sale documents to show a later date of
purchase than is actual.

My apologies for misunderstanding.

-Gene Poon

Howard Ferstler wrote:
Gene Poon wrote:


Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it,
part of the warranty is already history. The build date is on the
serial number label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a
file with serial numbers and corresponding build dates.


My hair kind of stood up when I read your comments, and I could
actually see exclamation marks rising out of my ears towards the
ceiling. I am not sure that typical state laws would let this kind of
warranty ploy fly. It is almost universal for warranties to start
ticking when the sales ticket is printed and not when the product is
built. Nobody could get away with what you claim.


This does have me wondering, as just over a month ago, while contacting
the factory for an authorized Velodyne dealer, a Velodyne employee
specifically stated that a subwoofer was past its warranty period based
on the build date, which they looked up by serial number, and which
matched what showed on the serial number label. They did, with very
little prodding, accede to make the necessary repair to the failed
amplifier module at no charge.

Warranty information on Velodyne's web site says:

All Velodyne powered subwoofers come with a two-year warranty against
defects in materials and workmanship. However, there are limitations
to the warranty, so please read your warranty card carefully.

and on their warranty registration page, they say:

Velodyne Acoustics, Inc. warrants all home theater and full-range
speaker products for a period of five years and all powered
subwoofers products and accessories for a period of two years. All
Velodyne products have a warranty from the date of purchase against
defects in materials and workmanship when purchased through any
authorized Velodyne dealer.

This specifically states "date of purchase" and I will have to contact
the factory for clarification; not to mention why that conversation went
the way it did.

Back about ten years ago when I had my "fight" with Velodyne, I returned
the first failed unit for repair. When I got it back, lo and behold,
there was a heat sink on the amplifier module. This was not there
originally. This suggests that they knew there was a heat problem with
the amplifier. I added a small muffin fan to help circulate the air to
the heat sink. The "repaired" unit still works BUT makes a popping
sound from time to time. I also recall that Stereophile gave a poor
review to Velodyne's full range speaker. This resulted in a nasty
letter from Velodyne and they pulled their advertising.


-MIKE

(MIKE) wrote:

Back about ten years ago when I had my "fight" with Velodyne, I returned
the first failed unit for repair. When I got it back, lo and behold,
there was a heat sink on the amplifier module. This was not there
originally. This suggests that they knew there was a heat problem with
the amplifier. I added a small muffin fan to help circulate the air to
the heat sink. The "repaired" unit still works BUT makes a popping
sound from time to time. I also recall that Stereophile gave a poor
review to Velodyne's full range speaker. This resulted in a nasty
letter from Velodyne and they pulled their advertising.


-MIKE

FWIW I have a freind who as a pair of Velodyne 12s that are a decade old and
functioning fine. However, I have had people complain to me about Velodyne
subwoofers.

As to the satellites measured in Stereophile I'd have to agree with Velodyne on
their complaint. It is true that the units did not have good low frequency
output but the Stereophile measurements, apparently using the MLSSA
auto-slicing technique, did short the speakers low frequency capability.

I have a good fix on this because I measured the same system in that time frame
and had to make decisions on how to depict low frequency measurements because
the nf-splice didn't reasonably match the far field performance at 4-meters.

I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point
for
warranty coverage. It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of dates.

Randy

It certainly isn't the law in California. State law trumps the manufacturer
in such matters.

"Gene Poon" wrote in message
news:qpgqc.71797$iF6.6083451@attbi_s02...
MIKE wrote:

I would recommend the HSU. Not because it sounds "better" than the
Velodyne but because I had two velodynes that failed. The amplifier
failed and in one case damaged the driver. Because they were over three
years old (out of warranty) Velodyne refused to repair one of them until
i became "nasty"...
======================================

Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it, part of
the warranty is already history. The build date is on the serial number
label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a file with serial
numbers and corresponding build dates.

-GP

I'd be interested to know where you came by this idea, since it does not
follow any state law I know of.

In the matter of subwoofers, I would by nothing until I had compared it to a
sub from Adire. The 12" Shiva driver is quite possible the best bang for
the buck in subwoofers. 650 watts of power handling and an Xmax of 16.6 mm
ONE WAY!

They offer both finished subs and kits.

www.adireaudio.com

I have no connection to them other than as a satisfied customer and owner of
a Shiva woofer.

Michael McKelvy wrote:

I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point

for

warranty coverage. It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of dates.

Randy


It certainly isn't the law in California. State law trumps the manufacturer
in such matters.

I already got it straightened out by direct communications with
Velodyne. Their warranty does, indeed begin with date of purchase, but
they review the build date on every warranty claim, in an attempt to
weed out fraudulent claims, selling of discontinued merchandise through
unauthorized dealers, etc., remaindering and sales of distressed
merchandise, etc.; all of which void the warranty.

-GP

Well it looks like i will never buy Velodyne products based on what i am
reading. Besides i own an HSU VTF-1 and am completely satisfied....(thank you
QAUDIO)

In article qpgqc.71797$iF6.6083451@attbi_s02, Gene Poon wrote:
MIKE wrote:

I would recommend the HSU. Not because it sounds "better" than the
Velodyne but because I had two velodynes that failed. The amplifier
failed and in one case damaged the driver. Because they were over three
years old (out of warranty) Velodyne refused to repair one of them until
i became "nasty"...
======================================

Velodyne purchasers should note that their warranty "clock" starts
ticking on the day the subwoofer is built, so when you buy it, part of
the warranty is already history. The build date is on the serial number
label. Don't think you can "fake" it; they have a file with serial
numbers and corresponding build dates.

-GP

That is illegal where i live. The warranty begins when purchased.

In article hhasc.48426$gr.4821009@attbi_s52, Gene Poon wrote:
Michael McKelvy wrote:

I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point

for

warranty coverage. It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of dates.

Randy


It certainly isn't the law in California. State law trumps the manufacturer
in such matters.

I already got it straightened out by direct communications with
Velodyne. Their warranty does, indeed begin with date of purchase, but
they review the build date on every warranty claim, in an attempt to
weed out fraudulent claims, selling of discontinued merchandise through
unauthorized dealers, etc., remaindering and sales of distressed

Still doesnt matter where i live. If sold new in box, the warranty starts when
purchased regardless of who sells it. If its a legit retail packaged item, its
from date of purchase. The manufacturer cannot selectively decide they wont
warrant it.




merchandise, etc.; all of which void the warranty.

-GP

Many companies go out of their way to keep their customers happy. From
what I am reading here and from my experience, it seems that Velodyne is
not one of them. It would make sense to only purchase from companies
that have good reputations for customer service.


-MIKE

"Gene Poon" wrote in message
news:to7rc.39371$6f5.4136955@attbi_s54...
(Dave Platt) wrote in message


I agree. It's hard to believe the build date is the sole starting point
for
warranty coverage.

Agreed.

It is more likely the build date is a reference point
for warranty issues that may arise from a faulty run of products or
other
known problems with products built within an identifiable range of
dates.

=======================================

I just contacted Velodyne directly about this.

The two-year warranty clock on their subwoofers begins ticking on the
DATE OF PURCHASE. But the build date is always checked before
authorization is issued for return of product for repair, and Velodyne
implies that warranty claims have been rejected if too long a time
appears to have elapsed between build date and the claimed sale date
to the end user.

The reason why the build date is always checked is to verify
"reasonableness" of the warranty claim. Just as speculation: perhaps
they have had warranty claim issues with units sold to non-authorized
dealers at a discount after being discontinued; from old stock after
an authorized dealer had closed its doors; with used units sold as
"new"; or with falsification of sale documents to show a later date of
purchase than is actual.

My apologies for misunderstanding.

-Gene Poon

but why would they take this out on the consumer, I think if something like
this happened they would be willing to bend over backwards.