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Is there any quality loss in these situations?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 27th 08, 12:30 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Legaldeejay
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Posts: 3
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
following circumstances:

1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play on
a CD player. If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
there any quality loss?

2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. Soundforge creates a
temporary file for editing. Once I edit the file, I save the new file as a
a 192 kbps mp3 file. Is there any quality loss in this process?

3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim. If
the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality loss?

4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there any
quality loss?

Thanks


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  #2  
Old August 27th 08, 12:43 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Industrial One
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Posts: 142
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

On 27 Aug., 11:30, "Legaldeejay" > wrote:
> I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> following circumstances:
>
> 1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play on
> a CD player. If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
> there any quality loss?
>
> 2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. Soundforge creates a
> temporary file for editing. Once I edit the file, I save the new file as a
> a 192 kbps mp3 file. Is there any quality loss in this process?
>


Yeah there is, but minimal and probably not noticeable, but if you
repeat that a dozen times then there'll be perceptible loss. Use a
bitrate of 256 or 320 if you wanna edit and re-save to MP3 all the
timem that way you'll only have real loss after the 100th time. Better
yet, use MP4, it's way better than MP3 and can handle the same
molesting you're doing to your song at half the bitrate.

> 3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim. If
> the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
> beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality loss?


Not really. But obviously, if you set the volume too low and then
amplify back to normal then you will raise the noise level to what was
inaudible before. Apply common sense before doing anything to your
song.

> 4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there any
> quality loss?
>
> Thanks


Lol... you're full of ****. Winzip and WinRAR are both lossless,
meaning no quality loss.
  #3  
Old August 27th 08, 01:17 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Richard Crowley
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Posts: 4,172
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

"Legaldeejay" wrote ...
> I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> following circumstances:
>
> 1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play
> on
> a CD player. If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
> there any quality loss?


Yes.

> 2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. Soundforge creates
> a
> temporary file for editing. Once I edit the file, I save the new file as
> a
> a 192 kbps mp3 file. Is there any quality loss in this process?


Yes

> 3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim.
> If
> the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
> beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality
> loss?


Yes

> 4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there
> any quality loss?


Probably not.

In cases 1-3, you are "reconstructing" the audio from a LOSSY
compression (MP3) Repeated trips through this compression-to-
decompression-to-compression path produce additional LOSS
every time you make the trip.

ZIP in general is a NON-LOSSY compression scheme.


  #4  
Old August 27th 08, 01:19 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
jamesgangnc
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Posts: 64
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

"Legaldeejay" > wrote in message
...
> I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> following circumstances:
>
> 1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play
> on
> a CD player. If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
> there any quality loss?
>
> 2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. Soundforge creates
> a
> temporary file for editing. Once I edit the file, I save the new file as
> a
> a 192 kbps mp3 file. Is there any quality loss in this process?
>
> 3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim.
> If
> the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
> beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality
> loss?
>
> 4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there
> any quality loss?
>
> Thanks
>


Mp3 is a lossy compression. Basically it will decide to discard portions of
the data that the algorithm believes are insignificant. Adjusting the
compression will preserve more but at a higher cost in space used. On a
computer space is not really an issue so you are better off performing edits
on the uncompressed version of the music straight from the cd. And then
compressing it at the end.

Zipping is a lossless compresison. That means every bit in the original
data is restored when it is uncompressed. You can zip and unzip a thousand
times and still have an exact copy of the original. The are also lossless
compressions specific to music as well. Typically the resulting file from
lossless will only be a bit smaller than the original when music is
compressed. Where as a lossy compression can produce a file that is only a
fraction of the original size.


  #5  
Old August 27th 08, 07:33 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Dave Platt
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Posts: 169
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

In article >,
Legaldeejay > wrote:

>I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
>following circumstances:


That depends on what you mean by "true quality loss".

I'll interpret it as meaning "the sonic content of the output, when
played, is detectably different than the sonic quality of the input."

>1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play on
>a CD player. If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
>there any quality loss?


Yes. In principle, each pass through a "lossy" encoder such as MP3
will result in some loss of quality... loss of certain frequencies,
and/or increased quantization noise (distortion), etc.

The "burn to CD, rip back from CD" step is lossless (if you have a
decent ripping program and good-quality CD-R blanks), but the
subsequent MP3 encoding step is lossy.

>2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. Soundforge creates a
>temporary file for editing. Once I edit the file, I save the new file as a
>a 192 kbps mp3 file. Is there any quality loss in this process?


Yes, almost certainly. Same reason.

>3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim. If
>the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
>beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality loss?


Yup.

>4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there any
>quality loss?


No. The compression logic in those algoriths is lossless - the output
of the decompression process is bit-for-bit identical to what went
in.

For all of the above reasons, if you want to manipulate music (or
other audio) via any sort of editing, and maintain the best quality,
you should keep the music in a lossless representation for as long as
possible... e.g. straight PCM, or a losslessly-compressed format such
as FLAC or ZIP or RAR. Do all of your editing and manipulation in
these domains. Then, at the very end of the process, perform whatever
sort of lossy encoding you may want to use for delivery (e.g. MP3, Ogg
Vorbis, RealAudio, etc.), and keep the losslessly-stored version in
your archives for future use.

--
Dave Platt > AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
  #6  
Old August 27th 08, 07:43 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Codifus
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Posts: 228
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

On Aug 27, 7:30*am, "Legaldeejay" > wrote:
> I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> following circumstances:
>
> 1. * I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play on
> a CD player. *If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
> there any quality loss?
>
> 2. * I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. *Soundforge creates a
> temporary file for editing. *Once I edit the file, I save the new file as a
> a 192 kbps mp3 file. *Is there any quality loss in this process?
>
> 3. *I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim.. *If
> the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
> beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality loss?
>
> 4. *When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there any
> quality loss?
>
> Thanks


Why would you ZIP up or RAR down a compressed audio file anyway?

CD
  #7  
Old August 27th 08, 08:38 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 130
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

On Aug 27, 2:43*pm, codifus > wrote:
> On Aug 27, 7:30*am, "Legaldeejay" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> > following circumstances:

>
> > 1. * I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play on
> > a CD player. *If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
> > there any quality loss?

>
> > 2. * I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. *Soundforge creates a
> > temporary file for editing. *Once I edit the file, I save the new file as a
> > a 192 kbps mp3 file. *Is there any quality loss in this process?

>
> > 3. *I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim. *If
> > the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
> > beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality loss?

>
> > 4. *When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there any
> > quality loss?

>
> > Thanks

>
> Why would you ZIP up or RAR down a compressed audio file anyway?
>
> CD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Well, maybe you want to stuff a bunch of them into one file. Simpler
to ftp or something. Just a thought. Agreed, you're not going to get
any further space reduction.
  #8  
Old August 27th 08, 11:21 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff
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Posts: 2,562
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

Richard Crowley wrote:
>> 4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is
>> there any quality loss?

>
> Probably not.
>
> In cases 1-3, you are "reconstructing" the audio from a LOSSY
> compression (MP3) Repeated trips through this compression-to-
> decompression-to-compression path produce additional LOSS
> every time you make the trip.
>
> ZIP in general is a NON-LOSSY compression scheme.


ZIP is not "in general" non-lossy - it's outright non-lossy.

In which case it's not "probably not", but "No".

geoff


  #9  
Old August 27th 08, 11:37 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Ron Capik
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Posts: 278
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

Legaldeejay wrote:

> I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> following circumstances:
>
> 1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 [ ... ]
>
> 2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in [ ... ]
>
> 3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through [ ... ]
>
> 4. When zipping and unzipping [ ... ]
>
> Thanks


Um... why not just do the experiment?

Then too, it depends on your definition of
" true quality loss" leading back to "do
the experiment."

Later...

Ron Capik
--
[PS: I've done the experiments for 1,2, and 4
but don't have the {whatever} for 3. ]


  #10  
Old August 28th 08, 09:36 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Steven Sullivan
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Posts: 1,268
Default Is there any quality loss in these situations?

Legaldeejay > wrote:
> I've always wanted to know whether there is any true quality loss in the
> following circumstances:


> 1. I burn a 192 kbps mp3 file to CD as a .wav file so that it can play on
> a CD player. If I re-create an mp3 file at 192 kbps from that same CD, is
> there any quality loss?


Could be. An ABX coparison will tell you if there is any audible losss.
The mp3 codec will attempt to remove data again, it doesn't 'know'
that the file has already been lossy compressed once before. However, your're safer doing
two rounds of 192 kbps than if you had started with, say, a 128 kbps mp3.

> 2. I open a 192 kbps mp3 file in Soundforge to edit. Soundforge creates a
> temporary file for editing. Once I edit the file, I save the new file as a
> a 192 kbps mp3 file. Is there any quality loss in this process?


the temporary file is likely a .wav, so the same applies.


> 3. I run a 192 kbps mp3 file through a normalizing program like Mptrim. If
> the program makes changes to the file, such as eliminating silence at the
> beginning of the file and normalizing the volume, is there any quality loss?


Possibly. Again, an ABX is the way to 'prove' it to yourself.

> 4. When zipping and unzipping mp3 files in Winzip and WinRar, is there any
> quality loss?


No. THis is purely data compression, not lossy compression.




--
-S
A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles"
(1748)
 




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