Greetings to all,

I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help me. Back in the
really dark ages (early '90s) when DAT machines were quite expensive I
used a VHS HI-Fi machine (a Toshiba, don't recall the model #) to
archive some old live jazz performances. Sound was quite good - not
DAT, but better than most tape machines available then. Eventually (c.
2000) the heads on the machine went and I disposed of it. I figured
that purchasing another VHS Hi-fi machine would still allow me to
retrieve the audio - no such luck. While videos made on the old
machine play back just fine (audio (longitudinal track?) and video), I
get no audio of any sort from the audio only tapes I made with the old
machine. The audio I archived on the old machine was definately the
FM, Hi Fi audio, interlaced with the video and not the crappy sounding
longitudinal track standard on VHS machines. From those dark days I
vaguely recall machines with 2, 4 (standard now) and possibly even 6
heads on them. The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head
machine. Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have
been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some
(now) un-standard fashion?
Thanks in advance for considering my problem. If this is the wrong
group to post such a question to, my apologies, and if so, could
someone here suggest another group.
Thanks again,
Darrel Tidaback,
South Bend, IN, USA

darrelt wrote:

I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help me. Back in the
really dark ages (early '90s) when DAT machines were quite expensive I
used a VHS HI-Fi machine (a Toshiba, don't recall the model #) to
archive some old live jazz performances. Sound was quite good - not
DAT, but better than most tape machines available then. Eventually (c.
2000) the heads on the machine went and I disposed of it. I figured
that purchasing another VHS Hi-fi machine would still allow me to
retrieve the audio - no such luck. While videos made on the old
machine play back just fine (audio (longitudinal track?) and video), I
get no audio of any sort from the audio only tapes I made with the old
machine. The audio I archived on the old machine was definately the
FM, Hi Fi audio, interlaced with the video and not the crappy sounding
longitudinal track standard on VHS machines. From those dark days I
vaguely recall machines with 2, 4 (standard now) and possibly even 6
heads on them. The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head
machine. Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have
been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some
(now) un-standard fashion?

Okay, first question... were you recording both the Hi-Fi and longitudinal
tracks?

Were you recording video on the video tracks.. or were you actually recording
PCM digital audio on the video tracks?

Hi-Fi VHS was pretty standard... but there were often problems with alignment
between different machines, since the subcarrier involved was at the top of
the band allotted for video and was the first thing to be lost when the video
degraded.

If you have access to a machine with a light that will tell you when the
Hi-Fi carrier is being detected, that would help. You may be able to tweak
the head alignment on the fly until it pops up.

This was... well... not the most robust format. But it wasn't as bad as
Exabytes!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

A couple of thoughts...

Does the new machine have any mechanism for switching between longitudinal
and Hi-Fi tracks?

Does the machine have any manual adjustment for tracking?

Did you record video with the sound? Perhaps the new machine won't play
Hi-Fi if there's no video signal.

Was this the Toshiba that did the 14-bit PCM?

"darrelt" wrote in message
ups.com...
Greetings to all,

I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help me. Back in the
really dark ages (early '90s) when DAT machines were quite expensive I
used a VHS HI-Fi machine (a Toshiba, don't recall the model #) to
archive some old live jazz performances. Sound was quite good - not
DAT, but better than most tape machines available then. Eventually (c.
2000) the heads on the machine went and I disposed of it. I figured
that purchasing another VHS Hi-fi machine would still allow me to
retrieve the audio - no such luck. While videos made on the old
machine play back just fine (audio (longitudinal track?) and video), I
get no audio of any sort from the audio only tapes I made with the old
machine. The audio I archived on the old machine was definately the
FM, Hi Fi audio, interlaced with the video and not the crappy sounding
longitudinal track standard on VHS machines. From those dark days I
vaguely recall machines with 2, 4 (standard now) and possibly even 6
heads on them. The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head
machine. Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have
been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some
(now) un-standard fashion?
Thanks in advance for considering my problem. If this is the wrong
group to post such a question to, my apologies, and if so, could
someone here suggest another group.
Thanks again,
Darrel Tidaback,
South Bend, IN, USA

Thanks for you replies so soon, I appreciate it.
Answers to Qs:

I was recording only the Hi-Fi audio via audio line-ins. If I remember
correctly the longitudinal tracks were accessed only thru the coax.

This was not PCM recorded to video (I did some of that in those days as
well), but FM Hi-Fi.

I recorded NO video along with the Hi-Fi audio, so it's a possibility
that the new machine wants to see a video signal. Although I assumed
that with HiFi audio, the video record heads were active and a video
signal was being recorded (with the audio encoded as FM as part of the
video) even if no video signal was present - rather like kicking a reel
to reel into record mode but with no audio hooked up to the machine -
the record heads are still doing something. I went ahead and hooked
the machine up to my TV and played the tape. No real snow, just black
but with consistant but very sparce, short "flecks" of luminescence -
rather like a tape that has gone past the video heads but with no
signal being present to record.

There are tracking controls on the new machine, but adjusting makes no
difference.

Scott, I'm not sure what you mean by "a machine with a light."

William, there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between
Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if
I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. However you
bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape
has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal
track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know"
which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it
is present? Just a thought.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
Darrel

darrelt wrote:
I recorded NO video along with the Hi-Fi audio, so it's a possibility
that the new machine wants to see a video signal. Although I assumed
that with HiFi audio, the video record heads were active and a video
signal was being recorded (with the audio encoded as FM as part of the
video) even if no video signal was present - rather like kicking a reel
to reel into record mode but with no audio hooked up to the machine -
the record heads are still doing something. I went ahead and hooked
the machine up to my TV and played the tape. No real snow, just black
but with consistant but very sparce, short "flecks" of luminescence -
rather like a tape that has gone past the video heads but with no
signal being present to record.

Ruh-roh, Rorge...

VHS machines read the control track of the video as a means of
determining the speed of the recording (SP, LP, EP/SLP). If you
recorded only audio, you may have no control track, and the machine
doesn't know what speed to use.

I tried this many years ago, and determined I had to record a video
signal, either a capped camera or a color bar generator.

Have you EVER been able to play the tracks back? On the original
machine?

There doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between
Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if
I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. However you
bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape
has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal
track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know"
which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it
is present? Just a thought.

I _think_ some VHS Hi-Fi machines had such a switch.

As far as I know, the default on Beta and VHS Hi-Fi machines is to play the
Hi-Fi track, if it exists. If it doesn't exist, or drops out, the machine
switches to the linear track.

One other question... Did these tapes play correctly on the original
recorder? (I think you said they did, but I don't remember.)

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
There doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between
Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if
I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. However you
bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape
has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal
track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know"
which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it
is present? Just a thought.

I _think_ some VHS Hi-Fi machines had such a switch.

I owned several VHS HiFi machines over the years and every single one
included a slide switch to allow swapping playback between the hi-fi and
linear tracks or mix them together. Until we had computer editing it was the
only way one could compile a sound track on domestic equipment and it was
pretty much the norm on machines made up until ten years ago. I still have
two working machines with the facility.

As far as I know, the default on Beta and VHS Hi-Fi machines is to play
the
Hi-Fi track, if it exists. If it doesn't exist, or drops out, the machine
switches to the linear track.

That's true.
--
Malcolm

To answer the latest question, yes, the tapes I made played like a
charm on the old machine and sounded great.

Thanks again,
Darrel

I still have a JVC HR-D565U VHS machine that has Hi-Fi, Normal or Both
settings for audio. I used it like a tape deck for my wedding music.
Recorded all songs to a VHS tape, popped it in at 8 pm to start the
night and it played non-stop until 1 am. Helluva lot cheaper than a DJ
and the music was much better. It also has a nice feature that allows
overdubbing of audio to previously recorded video. I have only used this
feature once to add music to an 8mm transfer that didn't have audio but
I assume it overwrites the existing audio (if any) in favour of the new
input. It also has a manual tracking adjustment which is so much better
than those automatic ones they have now. I would be happy to help you
out if you want to contact me off line.
JD

darrelt wrote:
To answer the latest question, yes, the tapes I made played like a
charm on the old machine and sounded great.

Thanks again,
Darrel

Our current VHS switches between tracks via the remote, cycling thru
the choices. (Sony VHS from about 6+ yrs ago.) My feeling is that if
your tracks played once they'll play again--the VHS spec hasn't
changed. You may have to troll Ebay or your friend's home setups to
find one that will play the tracks, but my guess is that you will find
one. There is also the possibility that your current machine isn't
operating properly. Does it play the hifi tracks from rented VHS
tapes? On our machine, the hifi tracks are the default. Last
question: are you sure your current machine is a HIFI deck? There are
still lots of cheapo decks available that do not play the HIFI tracks.


Philip Perkins

JD wrote:
It also has a nice feature that allows
overdubbing of audio to previously recorded video. I have only used this
feature once to add music to an 8mm transfer that didn't have audio but
I assume it overwrites the existing audio (if any) in favour of the new
input.

You will notice that the audio dubbing function only works with the linear
tracks, not with the Hi-Fi tracks.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hadn't noticed. I'll have to check it out.
JD

Scott Dorsey wrote:
JD wrote:
It also has a nice feature that allows
overdubbing of audio to previously recorded video. I have only used this
feature once to add music to an 8mm transfer that didn't have audio but
I assume it overwrites the existing audio (if any) in favour of the new
input.

You will notice that the audio dubbing function only works with the linear
tracks, not with the Hi-Fi tracks.
--scott

Ruh-roh, Rorge...

VHS machines read the control track of the video as a means of
determining the speed of the recording (SP, LP, EP/SLP). If you
recorded only audio, you may have no control track, and the machine
doesn't know what speed to use.

I tried this many years ago, and determined I had to record a video
signal, either a capped camera or a color bar generator.

Have you EVER been able to play the tracks back? On the original
machine?

I used to record to VHS HiFi without a video signal, maybe it's just on some
recorders this is a problem.

darrelt wrote:
There are tracking controls on the new machine, but adjusting makes no
difference.

There are actually a dozen or so things that can be adjusted inside to
make the transport match whatever the original machine was. But you really
don't want to touch them without some way of knowing how far off you are.

Scott, I'm not sure what you mean by "a machine with a light."

I mean a machine that has a light that comes on when it detects a
Hi-Fi subcarrier. That way you know when it's locked on and when it
hasn't.

William, there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between
Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if
I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment.

A lot of the cheaper machines just switch over to Hi-Fi as soon as they
detect a carrier. This is a bad thing because sometimes you want to listen
to the linear tracks rather than the Hi-Fi tracks (for things like dual
language recordings, for instance). Most of the professional machines
have four inputs and four outputs so you can listen to both linear
and Hi-Fi tracks at the same time. Some of them also have a metering
mode where you can see how strong the FM subcarrier is, which helps you
adjust tracking and skew somewhat.

However you
bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape
has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal
track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know"
which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it
is present? Just a thought.

It's like the squelch on a radio. When it detects a carrier, it
activates some switching. But since the carrier is very high frequency,
it is usually the first thing to be lost when the video signal degrades.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Okay, so I'm going to ask a realllllly stupid question:

Have you tried to find a working old Toshiba machine from the same
period your now dead machine came from? You know, like on eBay, for
example.

It would utterly simplify your problem to one of getting the compatible
machine and then transferring the now accessible tracks to digital or
other media of reliable nature.

--Fletch

William, there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between
Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if
I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment.

A lot of the cheaper machines just switch over to Hi-Fi as soon as they
detect a carrier. This is a bad thing because sometimes you want to listen
to the linear tracks rather than the Hi-Fi tracks (for things like dual
language recordings, for instance). Most of the professional machines
have four inputs and four outputs so you can listen to both linear
and Hi-Fi tracks at the same time. Some of them also have a metering
mode where you can see how strong the FM subcarrier is, which helps you
adjust tracking and skew somewhat.

When VHS Hi-Fi was relatively new, all the Zenith (JVC) machines had
such switches. I have the "portable" one, and it still works except for
rewind. It's a three-position switch, hi-Fi, standard (can't recal the
actual name) and mix. Mix was very phasey, IIRC. I do recall that many
of those machines had a "Hi-Fi" light on the front panel to indicate
the presence of a signal.

I recorded quite a bit with this machine, all audio with no video.

-John O

Hello to all,
Sorry, I've been off-line for a few days (seems I occasionally have to
go to work!). Scott, I do remember the old machine having an idiot
light that came on saying "hifi". Thanks to all who have responded
my VHS problem. .You've given me a number of ideas to check out. I'm
heading out of town for a week or so (concerts elswhere) so I will
report back when I've (hopefully) found a solution. Thanks to JD for
offering to help me if I can't get tapes to play around here.
A great group of helpful people here.
Darrel Tidaback

The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head machine. Could the
relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have been standardized
yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some (now) un-standard
fashion?

No.

Unlike the superior Beta Hi-Fi system, VHS Hi-Fi uses depth multiplexing.
The Hi-Fi and video signals are physically separated.

On Apr 5, 2006, William Sommerwerck commented:

Unlike the superior Beta Hi-Fi system, VHS Hi-Fi uses depth multiplexing.
The Hi-Fi and video signals are physically separated.
------------------------------snip------------------------------

Not exactly true. The VHS Hi-Fi multiplexed audio signal is like half a
micron deeper into the tape than the video, so for all practical purposes,
this is one big signal recorded on the tape. You can't exactly separate one
without also reading the other.

I once spoke with a Panasonic rep, and he told me they had created an
experimental VHS Hi-Fi machine in the lab that would allow you to replace the
Hi-Fi soundtrack by temporarily reading the video into RAM, then recording it
back to tape a split-second later with an alternate set of video heads --
essentially doing a dub as the tape played. Unfortunately, it was a) very
expensive, and b) resulted in a loss of picture quality, since the picture
now looked like a dub. Needless to say, the product never saw the light of
day.

I always felt that VHS Hi-Fi and Beta Hi-Fi never sounded very good. They
initially impressed me for the first few months they were out, simply because
they were so much better than the shoddy linear mono sound we had up to that
point from VCRs. But the reality is, the interchange with those machines was
(and is) horrible.

--MFW

On Apr 1, 2006, darrelt commented:

Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have
been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some
(now) un-standard fashion?
------------------------------snip------------------------------

It's possible, or it's possible your old Toshiba was poorly aligned and was
making bad recordings that would only play back well on itself. Or it's
possible the new machine you have is very intolerant of old videotapes... or
a combination of the two.

My small restoration studio has a variety of old format machines, and it's
hard to find a tape that we can't revive and coax into sounding better. The
VHS Hi-Fi deck of choice we use is the JVC BR-S822, which (IMHO) is the
finest VHS deck ever made, worldwide. As long as your recordings were made
in the SP mode, I would guarantee the 822 could play it back.

You can find these machines (or the cheaper JVC 622) at fairly affordable
prices on eBay, typically as little as $400 or so. My advice would be to buy
or borrow one of those and see if that solves the problem. Or if you'd like
to have my company look at it, contact me in email and I'll help if I can.

--MFW

I always felt that VHS Hi-Fi and Beta Hi-Fi never sounded very good.

I once compared a direct disk with its dub to Beta Hi-Fi and felt it rather
"blanded down" the sound.

"Marc Wielage" wrote ...
Not exactly true. The VHS Hi-Fi multiplexed audio signal is like half a
micron deeper into the tape than the video, so for all practical purposes,
this is one big signal recorded on the tape. You can't exactly separate
one
without also reading the other.

The whole "layer" and/or "depth" thing seems like marketing hype.
The audio is modulated onto an FM carrier at a frequency not used
by the video signal. It gets written to the tape (and read back) by
the same video heads that are writing and reading the video signal
(both the Y and C parts). You could just as easily say that the
color (C) and luminance (Y) signals are recorded at different
"depths". It is simple frequency-domain multiplexing. But the
marketing folk had to dude it up to earn their keep.

I once spoke with a Panasonic rep, and he told me they had created an
experimental VHS Hi-Fi machine in the lab that would allow you to replace
the
Hi-Fi soundtrack by temporarily reading the video into RAM, then recording
it
back to tape a split-second later with an alternate set of video heads --
essentially doing a dub as the tape played. Unfortunately, it was a) very
expensive, and b) resulted in a loss of picture quality, since the picture
now looked like a dub. Needless to say, the product never saw the light
of
day.

That technique IS used in broadcast-level digital VCR equipment,
however. You can modify video and/or audio. For example, you
could add title overlays,etc to the same tape.

The whole "layer" and/or "depth" thing seems like marketing hype.
The audio is modulated onto an FM carrier at a frequency not used
by the video signal. It gets written to the tape (and read back) by
the same video heads that are writing and reading the video signal
(both the Y and C parts). You could just as easily say that the
color (C) and luminance (Y) signals are recorded at different
"depths". It is simple frequency-domain multiplexing. But the
marketing folk had to dude it up to earn their keep.

There was also the Sony patent to get around. Unlike Beta, VHS has little
(ie, no) room to move the carriers around, as it is a severely band-limited
signal -- just barely adequate, even when everything is working properly.
Sony could make room for the HiFi signal by moving up the video carrier a
bit.

What happens is that one of the signals (I forget which) penetrates the full
oxide coating, while the other pentrates only the upper thickness, largely
erasing the other signal. It is sufficiently different from Sony's system to
patentable.