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Jim Gilliland
 
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Default Help me price my work?

Would you guys be willing to help me price my work?

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.

Basically, I'll be recording and mixing four sets of music, 75 to 90
minutes each. Each will be a multipiece band, 4-5 musicians and
singers. I'll split the mics at the stage and record in multitrack,
then mix to stereo later.

I figure I'll spend about 24 hours recording the actual shows including
setup and teardown (the four sets will take place over three nights and
two or three different venues). And I'll spend about eight to ten hours
per set mixing down, then indexing the finished stereo recordings.

There'll be a few additional hours spent in coordinating the whole
thing, some before the event, some after. So all together, it might
turn out to be 80 hours or so of work.

I'll be using my own mic pres, my hard disc recorder, my DAW and
software, so that has to be factored in. It'll be a fairly easy job in
some ways, since the sound crew will supply decent mics and will set
everything up - including a split to my location.

I'm by no means a professional - this is a hobby for me - but I also
have pretty decent skills in this area by now. I don't have any need to
"apologize" to anyone for the quality of my work. It's as good as they
could get from anyone in this market. Some of you have heard my
recordings on the RAP3 (Hillbilly Idol) and RAP5 (Nashville Mandolin
Ensemble) collections, so you can judge accordingly.

The artists are all fairly major names in the world of acoustic music.
Two record for major labels, the other two for larger independent folk
labels. The purpose of the recordings is to become a weekend special
broadcast on a local NPR affiliate (much like the festival recordings
that I mentioned here last month).

In this lengthy description, I've tried to anticipate the questions that
you guys are likely to ask. The only thing I can't tell you is what
kind of rates are charged in this market for this sort of thing - I
really don't know.

So, what do you think is a reasonable rate?

  #2   Report Post  
msparti
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?


"Jim Gilliland" wrote in message
t...
Would you guys be willing to help me price my work?

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.


Along with some help you get from experienced folks here in this group,
(which would be much better to answer your main question than I), also
consider the "possibility" of the festival hiring someone else for the job
"next" year. But sounds like a fun gig either way.

80 hours total? Do it for 8001500+ beer and food. [:-o] sorry if I'm way
off base here but, it is a "hobby" correct?.....it's most likely alot more
than that but I guess it all depends on the folks having the festival and
how much they have to offer you.
Mike






  #3   Report Post  
msparti
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?


"Jim Gilliland" wrote in message
t...
Would you guys be willing to help me price my work?

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.


Along with some help you get from experienced folks here in this group,
(which would be much better to answer your main question than I), also
consider the "possibility" of the festival hiring someone else for the job
"next" year. But sounds like a fun gig either way.

80 hours total? Do it for 8001500+ beer and food. [:-o] sorry if I'm way
off base here but, it is a "hobby" correct?.....it's most likely alot more
than that but I guess it all depends on the folks having the festival and
how much they have to offer you.
Mike






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Justin Ulysses Morse
 
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Default Help me price my work?

Jim,

If you're going to keep doing it for free until they "find" funding to
pay you, then I wouldn't expect that donor to show up any time soon.
Ask yourself this: What, for the sake of argument, would happen if you
refused to do the gig for free? Would they pony up? Would they get
some other hobbyist to do it for free? Would they hire some other
professional? Find somebody within their organization to do it
half-assed at no additional cost? Skip the recording entirely? Small
NPR affiliates are accustomed to spending money, but they're also
accustomed to finding people who will donate goods, services, and
funds. My guess is it's tough to jump from one column to the other,
without triggering an avalanche of internal re-evaluation of the
project. To some extent, your success will depend on how much you ask
for. If you ask for too little, or wait too long, you won't be
perceived as a professional and won't ever get paid. If you ask for
too much, they'll find another solution.

All that out of the way, I'll answer your question. The bare-ass
minimum you should get is probably about $500. There are a few
different ways you could arrive at that number, by counting only the
hours you're on site, or only paying yourself $10 an hour and clocking
conservatively, or whatever. And I can't imagine asking for any more
than about $4000. That's $50 per hour for all of your time. That's
probablt a bit much for someone who's not established as a professional
in the field, even if your results are spectacular. I think $25 per
hour for the most tangible hours is pretty realistic. That would be
about $1000. You should probably ask for about $2000.

And you should probably ask for it this year rather than waiting til
next year to hope they think about you during the pledge drive. They
won't.


ulysses

In article , Jim
Gilliland wrote:

Would you guys be willing to help me price my work?

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.

Basically, I'll be recording and mixing four sets of music, 75 to 90
minutes each. Each will be a multipiece band, 4-5 musicians and
singers. I'll split the mics at the stage and record in multitrack,
then mix to stereo later.

I figure I'll spend about 24 hours recording the actual shows including
setup and teardown (the four sets will take place over three nights and
two or three different venues). And I'll spend about eight to ten hours
per set mixing down, then indexing the finished stereo recordings.

There'll be a few additional hours spent in coordinating the whole
thing, some before the event, some after. So all together, it might
turn out to be 80 hours or so of work.

I'll be using my own mic pres, my hard disc recorder, my DAW and
software, so that has to be factored in. It'll be a fairly easy job in
some ways, since the sound crew will supply decent mics and will set
everything up - including a split to my location.

I'm by no means a professional - this is a hobby for me - but I also
have pretty decent skills in this area by now. I don't have any need to
"apologize" to anyone for the quality of my work. It's as good as they
could get from anyone in this market. Some of you have heard my
recordings on the RAP3 (Hillbilly Idol) and RAP5 (Nashville Mandolin
Ensemble) collections, so you can judge accordingly.

The artists are all fairly major names in the world of acoustic music.
Two record for major labels, the other two for larger independent folk
labels. The purpose of the recordings is to become a weekend special
broadcast on a local NPR affiliate (much like the festival recordings
that I mentioned here last month).

In this lengthy description, I've tried to anticipate the questions that
you guys are likely to ask. The only thing I can't tell you is what
kind of rates are charged in this market for this sort of thing - I
really don't know.

So, what do you think is a reasonable rate?

  #5   Report Post  
Justin Ulysses Morse
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Jim,

If you're going to keep doing it for free until they "find" funding to
pay you, then I wouldn't expect that donor to show up any time soon.
Ask yourself this: What, for the sake of argument, would happen if you
refused to do the gig for free? Would they pony up? Would they get
some other hobbyist to do it for free? Would they hire some other
professional? Find somebody within their organization to do it
half-assed at no additional cost? Skip the recording entirely? Small
NPR affiliates are accustomed to spending money, but they're also
accustomed to finding people who will donate goods, services, and
funds. My guess is it's tough to jump from one column to the other,
without triggering an avalanche of internal re-evaluation of the
project. To some extent, your success will depend on how much you ask
for. If you ask for too little, or wait too long, you won't be
perceived as a professional and won't ever get paid. If you ask for
too much, they'll find another solution.

All that out of the way, I'll answer your question. The bare-ass
minimum you should get is probably about $500. There are a few
different ways you could arrive at that number, by counting only the
hours you're on site, or only paying yourself $10 an hour and clocking
conservatively, or whatever. And I can't imagine asking for any more
than about $4000. That's $50 per hour for all of your time. That's
probablt a bit much for someone who's not established as a professional
in the field, even if your results are spectacular. I think $25 per
hour for the most tangible hours is pretty realistic. That would be
about $1000. You should probably ask for about $2000.

And you should probably ask for it this year rather than waiting til
next year to hope they think about you during the pledge drive. They
won't.


ulysses

In article , Jim
Gilliland wrote:

Would you guys be willing to help me price my work?

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.

Basically, I'll be recording and mixing four sets of music, 75 to 90
minutes each. Each will be a multipiece band, 4-5 musicians and
singers. I'll split the mics at the stage and record in multitrack,
then mix to stereo later.

I figure I'll spend about 24 hours recording the actual shows including
setup and teardown (the four sets will take place over three nights and
two or three different venues). And I'll spend about eight to ten hours
per set mixing down, then indexing the finished stereo recordings.

There'll be a few additional hours spent in coordinating the whole
thing, some before the event, some after. So all together, it might
turn out to be 80 hours or so of work.

I'll be using my own mic pres, my hard disc recorder, my DAW and
software, so that has to be factored in. It'll be a fairly easy job in
some ways, since the sound crew will supply decent mics and will set
everything up - including a split to my location.

I'm by no means a professional - this is a hobby for me - but I also
have pretty decent skills in this area by now. I don't have any need to
"apologize" to anyone for the quality of my work. It's as good as they
could get from anyone in this market. Some of you have heard my
recordings on the RAP3 (Hillbilly Idol) and RAP5 (Nashville Mandolin
Ensemble) collections, so you can judge accordingly.

The artists are all fairly major names in the world of acoustic music.
Two record for major labels, the other two for larger independent folk
labels. The purpose of the recordings is to become a weekend special
broadcast on a local NPR affiliate (much like the festival recordings
that I mentioned here last month).

In this lengthy description, I've tried to anticipate the questions that
you guys are likely to ask. The only thing I can't tell you is what
kind of rates are charged in this market for this sort of thing - I
really don't know.

So, what do you think is a reasonable rate?



  #6   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Small
NPR affiliates are accustomed to spending money, but they're also
accustomed to finding people who will donate goods, services, and
funds.


Jim, another thing worth considering is: Since you've done it in the past for
free, I'm assuming that you feel it's a worthy cause to at least some degree,
so unless you're in a position where you are now needing some cash for the gig,
why don't you bill the whole thing out at full-pop (like maybe $50 per hour, as
someone else mentioned), itemize all your time, and have the stations'
Development Director sign off on it, and write the whole thing off.

Depending on youroverall tax liabilities, $4k's worth of charitable writeoffs
at the end of the year can take a chunk off your taxes, you know! Check with
your accountant about specifics, and if this will work in your situation.

NeilH
  #7   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Small
NPR affiliates are accustomed to spending money, but they're also
accustomed to finding people who will donate goods, services, and
funds.


Jim, another thing worth considering is: Since you've done it in the past for
free, I'm assuming that you feel it's a worthy cause to at least some degree,
so unless you're in a position where you are now needing some cash for the gig,
why don't you bill the whole thing out at full-pop (like maybe $50 per hour, as
someone else mentioned), itemize all your time, and have the stations'
Development Director sign off on it, and write the whole thing off.

Depending on youroverall tax liabilities, $4k's worth of charitable writeoffs
at the end of the year can take a chunk off your taxes, you know! Check with
your accountant about specifics, and if this will work in your situation.

NeilH
  #10   Report Post  
Justin Ulysses Morse
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Mike Rivers wrote:

$3,000.

Much less than that and nobody will want to bother funding you, and
much more than that and whoever funds it will want a piece of your ass
(or the festival's ass). That's a good figure for someone to pay to
get their name in the program book, get mentioned by the MC during
setups, and maybe get a sign or a banner at the stage.


"...and ladies and gentlemen, a recording of this even is being
prepared by Cargill Presents Jim Gilliland."


ulysses


  #11   Report Post  
Justin Ulysses Morse
 
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Default Help me price my work?

Mike Rivers wrote:

$3,000.

Much less than that and nobody will want to bother funding you, and
much more than that and whoever funds it will want a piece of your ass
(or the festival's ass). That's a good figure for someone to pay to
get their name in the program book, get mentioned by the MC during
setups, and maybe get a sign or a banner at the stage.


"...and ladies and gentlemen, a recording of this even is being
prepared by Cargill Presents Jim Gilliland."


ulysses
  #12   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

Ask yourself this: What, for the sake of argument, would happen if you
refused to do the gig for free? Would they pony up? Would they get
some other hobbyist to do it for free? Would they hire some other
professional? Find somebody within their organization to do it
half-assed at no additional cost? Skip the recording entirely?


Probably one of the last two. I suspect that they'd ask one of their
student interns to record the shows direct to two-track. I've heard the
results when they take that approach, and I'd really rather not see it
come to that.

And yes, I've certainly considered many of the points that you make.
Basically, I decided long ago that I wanted to record this festival even
if it is as a volunteer. But I also see that they are trying to get the
festival's funding solidified, and I'd like them to put me into the mix
for getting paid. I've made sure that they paid me for each of the past
few years, but I've never asked them for anywhere near what I thought
the work was worth. My bill has been down in the range of your
"bare-ass minimum".

All that out of the way, I'll answer your question. The bare-ass
minimum you should get is probably about $500. There are a few
different ways you could arrive at that number, by counting only the
hours you're on site, or only paying yourself $10 an hour and clocking
conservatively, or whatever. And I can't imagine asking for any more
than about $4000. That's $50 per hour for all of your time. That's
probablt a bit much for someone who's not established as a professional
in the field, even if your results are spectacular. I think $25 per
hour for the most tangible hours is pretty realistic. That would be
about $1000. You should probably ask for about $2000.


Well, it seems that the estimates here are spread fairly evenly over a
range of $800 to $4000, with $2000 being an approximate arithmetic mean.
So I may use that as my target.

And you should probably ask for it this year rather than waiting til
next year to hope they think about you during the pledge drive. They
won't.


Maybe so, but I'm going to talk this through with the festival director.
It's not really a "pledge drive" question, rather it's a question of
finding a specific donor who is willing (as Mike says) to pay a few
bucks in exchange for underwriting announcements on the broadcast and a
mention in the festival program.

  #13   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
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Default Help me price my work?

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

Ask yourself this: What, for the sake of argument, would happen if you
refused to do the gig for free? Would they pony up? Would they get
some other hobbyist to do it for free? Would they hire some other
professional? Find somebody within their organization to do it
half-assed at no additional cost? Skip the recording entirely?


Probably one of the last two. I suspect that they'd ask one of their
student interns to record the shows direct to two-track. I've heard the
results when they take that approach, and I'd really rather not see it
come to that.

And yes, I've certainly considered many of the points that you make.
Basically, I decided long ago that I wanted to record this festival even
if it is as a volunteer. But I also see that they are trying to get the
festival's funding solidified, and I'd like them to put me into the mix
for getting paid. I've made sure that they paid me for each of the past
few years, but I've never asked them for anywhere near what I thought
the work was worth. My bill has been down in the range of your
"bare-ass minimum".

All that out of the way, I'll answer your question. The bare-ass
minimum you should get is probably about $500. There are a few
different ways you could arrive at that number, by counting only the
hours you're on site, or only paying yourself $10 an hour and clocking
conservatively, or whatever. And I can't imagine asking for any more
than about $4000. That's $50 per hour for all of your time. That's
probablt a bit much for someone who's not established as a professional
in the field, even if your results are spectacular. I think $25 per
hour for the most tangible hours is pretty realistic. That would be
about $1000. You should probably ask for about $2000.


Well, it seems that the estimates here are spread fairly evenly over a
range of $800 to $4000, with $2000 being an approximate arithmetic mean.
So I may use that as my target.

And you should probably ask for it this year rather than waiting til
next year to hope they think about you during the pledge drive. They
won't.


Maybe so, but I'm going to talk this through with the festival director.
It's not really a "pledge drive" question, rather it's a question of
finding a specific donor who is willing (as Mike says) to pay a few
bucks in exchange for underwriting announcements on the broadcast and a
mention in the festival program.

  #14   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Neil Henderson wrote:

Small
NPR affiliates are accustomed to spending money, but they're also
accustomed to finding people who will donate goods, services, and
funds.



Jim, another thing worth considering is: Since you've done it in the past for
free, I'm assuming that you feel it's a worthy cause to at least some degree,


Yes, absolutely.

so unless you're in a position where you are now needing some cash for the gig,
why don't you bill the whole thing out at full-pop (like maybe $50 per hour, as
someone else mentioned), itemize all your time, and have the stations'
Development Director sign off on it, and write the whole thing off.

Depending on your overall tax liabilities, $4k's worth of charitable writeoffs
at the end of the year can take a chunk off your taxes, you know! Check with
your accountant about specifics, and if this will work in your situation.


I like that idea, but tax law doesn't allow it. I did just what you
suggested - checked with a tax attorney.

You can't deduct anything for charitable hours. The best that I could
do would be to bill them for it, let them pay me, and then the law says
that I'm allowed to donate up to half of it back to them. So I could
take a donation for half of it, but only if they actually paid out the
money. It's awkward at best and only a partial solution.

But thanks for the idea - I wish it were that easy!

  #15   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Neil Henderson wrote:

Small
NPR affiliates are accustomed to spending money, but they're also
accustomed to finding people who will donate goods, services, and
funds.



Jim, another thing worth considering is: Since you've done it in the past for
free, I'm assuming that you feel it's a worthy cause to at least some degree,


Yes, absolutely.

so unless you're in a position where you are now needing some cash for the gig,
why don't you bill the whole thing out at full-pop (like maybe $50 per hour, as
someone else mentioned), itemize all your time, and have the stations'
Development Director sign off on it, and write the whole thing off.

Depending on your overall tax liabilities, $4k's worth of charitable writeoffs
at the end of the year can take a chunk off your taxes, you know! Check with
your accountant about specifics, and if this will work in your situation.


I like that idea, but tax law doesn't allow it. I did just what you
suggested - checked with a tax attorney.

You can't deduct anything for charitable hours. The best that I could
do would be to bill them for it, let them pay me, and then the law says
that I'm allowed to donate up to half of it back to them. So I could
take a donation for half of it, but only if they actually paid out the
money. It's awkward at best and only a partial solution.

But thanks for the idea - I wish it were that easy!



  #16   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Jim Gilliland wrote:

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.


You should charge them little enough that they can make a profit on your
work, but not so little that you aren't making a profit.

If neither one of you is making a profit, you need to sit down and figure
out how these recordings (and the archive ones) can be used in a way that
will make some money.

Will the radio station pay? Will the performers pay for a high grade mix
of their set? Can you release a compilation album every year?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #17   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Jim Gilliland wrote:

I've been asked to record a festival again this year, and I'm trying to
figure out what the job is really worth. In the past I've done this job
for pretty close to free, and I expect to do the same again this year,
but I'm also hoping to work with the festival to find some real funding
for me for next year. So while I don't expect to charge them a lot this
year, I want to give them a realistic idea of what my work is worth so
they can find a donor who will support it properly in the future.


You should charge them little enough that they can make a profit on your
work, but not so little that you aren't making a profit.

If neither one of you is making a profit, you need to sit down and figure
out how these recordings (and the archive ones) can be used in a way that
will make some money.

Will the radio station pay? Will the performers pay for a high grade mix
of their set? Can you release a compilation album every year?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #18   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?


You can't deduct anything for charitable hours.


It's called "services in-kind", and yes you can donate those & subsequently
write them off... that is, if your studio is set up as a business. If it's not,
then you as an individual cannot write it off. When I said check with your
accountant, I meant to check to see if that particular kind of charitable
donation would be worth it to you to write off in your particular situation, so
I assume that when he said you couldn't write it off, that means that your
studio is not set up as a business of any type?

NeilH
  #19   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?


You can't deduct anything for charitable hours.


It's called "services in-kind", and yes you can donate those & subsequently
write them off... that is, if your studio is set up as a business. If it's not,
then you as an individual cannot write it off. When I said check with your
accountant, I meant to check to see if that particular kind of charitable
donation would be worth it to you to write off in your particular situation, so
I assume that when he said you couldn't write it off, that means that your
studio is not set up as a business of any type?

NeilH
  #20   Report Post  
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

I think if you should come up with a figure now, get with the bosses and say
"I've been donating a lot to this, but I can't afford to do it for free.
This is what a fulltime pro would charge, I'll do it for half that. Can we
work to find sponsorship before next year?" They'd probably understand. Yes,
they use volunteers, but they also have some idea of where they need to pay
for professionals, and if they can get pro work for less than pro prices,
they'll shoot for it. Especially if the show is established, and the quality
of the recordings are known to be good. What happens to these tapes later?
Radio airplay?

Do they get sponsors to underwrite the festival expenses, bringing in the
acts and so forth? Charge admission to the festival? Sell stuff? Another
$500-1k would not be hard to dig up.




  #21   Report Post  
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

I think if you should come up with a figure now, get with the bosses and say
"I've been donating a lot to this, but I can't afford to do it for free.
This is what a fulltime pro would charge, I'll do it for half that. Can we
work to find sponsorship before next year?" They'd probably understand. Yes,
they use volunteers, but they also have some idea of where they need to pay
for professionals, and if they can get pro work for less than pro prices,
they'll shoot for it. Especially if the show is established, and the quality
of the recordings are known to be good. What happens to these tapes later?
Radio airplay?

Do they get sponsors to underwrite the festival expenses, bringing in the
acts and so forth? Charge admission to the festival? Sell stuff? Another
$500-1k would not be hard to dig up.


  #22   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
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Default Help me price my work?

Neil Henderson wrote:
You can't deduct anything for charitable hours.



It's called "services in-kind", and yes you can donate those & subsequently
write them off... that is, if your studio is set up as a business. If it's not,
then you as an individual cannot write it off.



My understanding of the tax code is that you can not write off
unrealized income, but only out-of-pocket costs on deals like this. So
you could write off payroll, taxes, and benefits for that portion of
employees' time associated with the work (which you would have written
off anyway as an expense) and materials cost, transport/travel expenses,
etc. In order to write off the $50 per hour you would have charged, you
would have to record that $50 per hour as income, making it zero out
just the same.



  #23   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Neil Henderson wrote:
You can't deduct anything for charitable hours.



It's called "services in-kind", and yes you can donate those & subsequently
write them off... that is, if your studio is set up as a business. If it's not,
then you as an individual cannot write it off.



My understanding of the tax code is that you can not write off
unrealized income, but only out-of-pocket costs on deals like this. So
you could write off payroll, taxes, and benefits for that portion of
employees' time associated with the work (which you would have written
off anyway as an expense) and materials cost, transport/travel expenses,
etc. In order to write off the $50 per hour you would have charged, you
would have to record that $50 per hour as income, making it zero out
just the same.



  #24   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

My understanding of the tax code is that you can not write off
unrealized income, but only out-of-pocket costs on deals like this.


As an individual you can only write off out-of-pocket expenses, but as a
business you can write off more... either way you can never write off the whole
amount (and there's also limits as to how much you can write off for donations
to different types of organizations... some are 20%, others are 30%, others are
50% - I have no idea what an NPR affiliate might rate at in terms of those
limits).

I know you can do this to a larger degree as a business mainly because a friend
of mine has done this same thing a couple of times for non-profits... he shot &
edited a TV PSA spot for one & recorded a live concert event for another. In
both cases he was able to write off more than just the out-of-pocket costs.
He's pretty careful, so it's not like he would've just loaded those things up
with phoney-baloney expenses to get a bigger write-off.

In order to write off the $50 per hour you would have charged, you
would have to record that $50 per hour as income, making it zero out
just the same.


Well, that method would be worse than zeroing out, as you can only write off
*at MOST* half of it, anyway.

NeilH
  #25   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

My understanding of the tax code is that you can not write off
unrealized income, but only out-of-pocket costs on deals like this.


As an individual you can only write off out-of-pocket expenses, but as a
business you can write off more... either way you can never write off the whole
amount (and there's also limits as to how much you can write off for donations
to different types of organizations... some are 20%, others are 30%, others are
50% - I have no idea what an NPR affiliate might rate at in terms of those
limits).

I know you can do this to a larger degree as a business mainly because a friend
of mine has done this same thing a couple of times for non-profits... he shot &
edited a TV PSA spot for one & recorded a live concert event for another. In
both cases he was able to write off more than just the out-of-pocket costs.
He's pretty careful, so it's not like he would've just loaded those things up
with phoney-baloney expenses to get a bigger write-off.

In order to write off the $50 per hour you would have charged, you
would have to record that $50 per hour as income, making it zero out
just the same.


Well, that method would be worse than zeroing out, as you can only write off
*at MOST* half of it, anyway.

NeilH


  #26   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Mike wrote:
I think if you should come up with a figure now, get with the bosses and say
"I've been donating a lot to this, but I can't afford to do it for free.
This is what a fulltime pro would charge, I'll do it for half that. Can we
work to find sponsorship before next year?" They'd probably understand.


Yes, that's exactly where I'm going with this.

they use volunteers, but they also have some idea of where they need to pay
for professionals, and if they can get pro work for less than pro prices,
they'll shoot for it. Especially if the show is established, and the quality
of the recordings are known to be good. What happens to these tapes later?
Radio airplay?

Do they get sponsors to underwrite the festival expenses, bringing in the
acts and so forth? Charge admission to the festival? Sell stuff? Another
$500-1k would not be hard to dig up.


Yeah, but it's a little awkward. The festival is being asked to pay for
the recording, but the radio station is really the bigger benficiary.
Though the festival benefits too, since the broadcasts are generally
timed to trigger interest in the following year's festival. But they'll
have to figure out between them how to split up the recording cost.

I had a lengthy conversation with one of the station people today about
how we might work this out in the future. So the ideas posted here have
definitely helped. My hope is that we can find a broadcast underwriter
so that next year's broadcast (of this year's festival) will bring in
enough money to pay for next year's recording (which in turn will be
broadcast the following year). This might just work.

  #27   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Mike wrote:
I think if you should come up with a figure now, get with the bosses and say
"I've been donating a lot to this, but I can't afford to do it for free.
This is what a fulltime pro would charge, I'll do it for half that. Can we
work to find sponsorship before next year?" They'd probably understand.


Yes, that's exactly where I'm going with this.

they use volunteers, but they also have some idea of where they need to pay
for professionals, and if they can get pro work for less than pro prices,
they'll shoot for it. Especially if the show is established, and the quality
of the recordings are known to be good. What happens to these tapes later?
Radio airplay?

Do they get sponsors to underwrite the festival expenses, bringing in the
acts and so forth? Charge admission to the festival? Sell stuff? Another
$500-1k would not be hard to dig up.


Yeah, but it's a little awkward. The festival is being asked to pay for
the recording, but the radio station is really the bigger benficiary.
Though the festival benefits too, since the broadcasts are generally
timed to trigger interest in the following year's festival. But they'll
have to figure out between them how to split up the recording cost.

I had a lengthy conversation with one of the station people today about
how we might work this out in the future. So the ideas posted here have
definitely helped. My hope is that we can find a broadcast underwriter
so that next year's broadcast (of this year's festival) will bring in
enough money to pay for next year's recording (which in turn will be
broadcast the following year). This might just work.

  #28   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Neil Henderson wrote:
You can't deduct anything for charitable hours.



It's called "services in-kind", and yes you can donate those & subsequently
write them off... that is, if your studio is set up as a business.


Well, obviously your tax attorney sees this differently than mine does.
She was quite clear that direct deductions for services-in-kind were
not legal. And yes, we were discussing this in the context of operating
the studio as a business.

  #29   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Neil Henderson wrote:
You can't deduct anything for charitable hours.



It's called "services in-kind", and yes you can donate those & subsequently
write them off... that is, if your studio is set up as a business.


Well, obviously your tax attorney sees this differently than mine does.
She was quite clear that direct deductions for services-in-kind were
not legal. And yes, we were discussing this in the context of operating
the studio as a business.

  #30   Report Post  
Justin Ulysses Morse
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Hey Jim,

What if you actually found your own sponsor? Since you're doing the
editing, you could insert the underwriting announcement into the audio
program yourself, and give them a finished product ready for air.
You'd probably need a little communication with both the radio station
and the festival to clear your language with them, but this should
work. I'm renting studio space to a guy who produces a syndicated
radio show, and he finds his own underwriters and edits their
announcements into his show, which gets played on a bunch of public
stations (colleges, mostly) around the country. So I know conceptually
it's possible. He mostly trades underwriting spots for in-kind
donations, such as to me for mastering work or to duplicators for
manufacturing the CDs he distributes. I suspect your connection to the
organizations and the market has probably produced some business
contacts you could tap for this.


ulysses


  #31   Report Post  
Justin Ulysses Morse
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Hey Jim,

What if you actually found your own sponsor? Since you're doing the
editing, you could insert the underwriting announcement into the audio
program yourself, and give them a finished product ready for air.
You'd probably need a little communication with both the radio station
and the festival to clear your language with them, but this should
work. I'm renting studio space to a guy who produces a syndicated
radio show, and he finds his own underwriters and edits their
announcements into his show, which gets played on a bunch of public
stations (colleges, mostly) around the country. So I know conceptually
it's possible. He mostly trades underwriting spots for in-kind
donations, such as to me for mastering work or to duplicators for
manufacturing the CDs he distributes. I suspect your connection to the
organizations and the market has probably produced some business
contacts you could tap for this.


ulysses
  #32   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Well, obviously your tax attorney sees this differently than mine does.
She was quite clear that direct deductions for services-in-kind were
not legal. And yes, we were discussing this in the context of operating
the studio as a business.


Well, then ONE of us needs a new tax advisor! lol Actually, I've not done
this, but a friend of mine has on a couple of occasions (as I mentioned
subsequent to someone else's post in this thread) & he was pretty clear that it
can be done, and legally, but I honestly don't know all the details - I thought
perhaps any accountant probably would, which is why I made the suggestion.

Obviously, I wouldn't suggest that you attempt it if your tax advisor says it
won't work, because then they won't back you up on it if it should ever get
questioned.

NeilH
  #33   Report Post  
Neil Henderson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Well, obviously your tax attorney sees this differently than mine does.
She was quite clear that direct deductions for services-in-kind were
not legal. And yes, we were discussing this in the context of operating
the studio as a business.


Well, then ONE of us needs a new tax advisor! lol Actually, I've not done
this, but a friend of mine has on a couple of occasions (as I mentioned
subsequent to someone else's post in this thread) & he was pretty clear that it
can be done, and legally, but I honestly don't know all the details - I thought
perhaps any accountant probably would, which is why I made the suggestion.

Obviously, I wouldn't suggest that you attempt it if your tax advisor says it
won't work, because then they won't back you up on it if it should ever get
questioned.

NeilH
  #36   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:
Hey Jim,

What if you actually found your own sponsor?


Good idea. I've already been giving this some thought. I'd probably
still let the station handle the formal underwriting arrangements, but
there's no reason that I couldn't seek the funding on their behalf.

  #37   Report Post  
Jim Gilliland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Help me price my work?

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:
Hey Jim,

What if you actually found your own sponsor?


Good idea. I've already been giving this some thought. I'd probably
still let the station handle the formal underwriting arrangements, but
there's no reason that I couldn't seek the funding on their behalf.

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