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#1
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "JANA" wrote in message ... If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it, the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker. If the CFL is connected to a switch that is electronic, the small leakage of the electronics will cause the CFL to flicker or in some cases to not turn off. Regular CFL's cannot be used on standard light dimmers and many of the electronic timers. This is a big inconvenience for many people. When regular lamps become unavailable, I can see a lot of problems with these new types of lamps. The biggest one will be the pollution from their disposal. They use mercury, phosphors, and many types of materials that are very harmful for the environment. There is also the electronics circuit board, which contain components that have the same recycling problem as used in most electronics. Even though they last longer, when they are eventually put out in to the garbage, they will eventually end up in the land fills. They are going to be a very big problem compared to the simple light bulb that was made of simple glass and metals. Regular light bulb materials are about 85% recyclable. There are almost no materials in these that are bad for the environment. Most CFL's materials are not recyclable, and their materials are very polluting. It looks very strong that the government is pushing the CFL's to save some electricity to sell to large industry. This is the only answer that is logical. There are NO green house gasses from using regular light bulbs. When more electricity is sold to industry, the pollution problems from its generation will actually increase, unless the generation is from water power, or nuclear power. -- JANA _____ These are my (well known) views also, but I fear we are squeaking like little lost mice in the dark ... The general public are not told - and would not understand anyway - the wider implications of these knee-jerk government interventions in our lives. All too often, they are poorly thought through, and are dreamed up as a response to the latest bit of pseudo science to hit the news stands. At the moment, anything with the words 'green' or 'eco' or 'environment' or 'global warming' are fair game for this sort of nonsense, and to add to its 'validity' in the public's eyes, they've already started inventing new bits of techno-babble like 'carbon footprint' and 'carbon offsetting' to justify what amounts to little more than opinions by a vociferous band of scientists getting paid large amounts of money and credibility ratings, to promote the government line. As you say, these CFLs are just trading one form of alleged pollution, for another definite one ... Arfa Arfa Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. Putting in a low-energy lamp mean that there is less heat being put into the room, and consequently, more heat has to be supplied externally. The only way that Low Energy lighting makes a positive difference is if people change their lamps when they stop using external heating. As in Northern Europe we usually have to have our heating on for at least 7 months of the year, typically 8 months, low energy lighting doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, how much energy does it take to make a low-energy lamp compared with a conventional one? When this is factored in, together with the extra energy required to dispose of it safely, I doubt very much whether low-energy lighting helps at all. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#2
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly than other heat sources (often by a large amount). No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting. Graham |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly than other heat sources (often by a large amount). No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting. Graham While I generally agree with your comment above, there is still a lot of hype on this topic because people (an especially politicians) fail to consider the total energy equation. This is especially true here in the U.S. where ethanol is a big topic. The public does not realize that the savings are relatively small. The BTU content/unit volume is about 70% of gasoline (lower miles/gallon), it takes a lot of energy to make it (fertilizer, fuel for planting, cultivating, harvesting, distilling), the diversion of corn to ethanol is driving up prices for animal feed and therefore milk and meat, and if all corn was turned into ethanol you may divert 3% of the total energy use in this country. If it was not subsidized by the taxpayers, no one would use it. The 3% number is higher if you only consider the energy from oil, but we are looking for solutions for the CO2 problem and you have to count all fossil fuels including natural gas and coal. Where are we going to get the holy grail of hydrogen for our cars? Yes, it takes energy to create it. Solar cells for home use are another myth. It takes more energy to produce the solar panels, batteries, and all of the auxiliary equipment than the system will ever generate. Large scale applications in areas with high solar illumination have a much better equation. I could go on, but you get the idea. The switch to more efficient lighting is a good conversation measure, but the energy production area is where the hype sets in. In general energy use is directly proportional to population and standard of living. The best way to save energy to reduce one or both of those. Alternatively we could create the necessary energy form nuclear power which has essentially zero carbon emissions. David |
#4
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
David wrote: While I generally agree with your comment above, there is still a lot of hype on this topic because people (an especially politicians) fail to consider the total energy equation. This is especially true here in the U.S. where ethanol is a big topic. The public does not realize that the savings are relatively small. The BTU content/unit volume is about 70% of gasoline (lower miles/gallon), it takes a lot of energy to make it (fertilizer, fuel for planting, cultivating, harvesting, distilling), the diversion of corn to ethanol is driving up prices for animal feed and therefore milk and meat, and if all corn was turned into ethanol you may divert 3% of the total energy use in this country. The idea of making ethanol fuel from corn is unique to the USA. I hear ADM regularly named as the culprit here. Far better to use feedstock that doesn't require intensive agriculture. Is your newsreader set to a line length of about 30 chars or so btw ? Graham |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly than other heat sources (often by a large amount). Agreed , but cost isn't part of my argument, energy usage is. The end to end energy costs of low energy lighting, that is, the energy to make them, use them and dispose of them compared with conventional filament lighting isn't at all clear. I have not seen any such figures published, only for the energy consumption in use, which is clearly lower, but again, the energy re-use as heat doesn't seem to be taken into account in any calculation I've seen.. No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting. Graham It's not an excuse, but to me the case isn't completely made. In my own home, any light that is on for more than an hour a day is a low energy light, but that's more an act of faith on my part rather than a soundly calculated decision. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Eeyore wrote in
: Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly than other heat sources (often by a large amount). No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting. It wasn't an excuse, it was a reason, and a good one, there was more to his point than you quoted. Most times light is used, heat is also wanted. Where it isn't, you use a light source that doesn't add heat, and there are several choices. LED's in outdoor and tunnel and other places where people don't need to spend time keeping warm, or any of the other types already in use, but that's not where people spend most of their time. The current availability of CFL's is no excuse to risk vast pollution and ebergy use in manufacture for all the general domestic uses that also need heat, and this is true before you begin to consider all the dimmers that must be replaced and thrown away. If you're looking for excuses, at least look in the right place. Trying to force an end to the incandescent lamp to satify a political expedient is not engineering, but an excuse. No matter how people heat their homes, the important thing is not to let it all out of the roofs, doors and windows, it's less important where it comes from. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
I think our polititions are afraid to tell the American public how
fast/serious the worlds energy is being depleated. The mercury issue can be solved as suerage is now. This could be fixed overnight. Almost all of the CFLs will be made in Asia. Not many are made in the US now. Asia competes with Europe. The US is not in the running. The best CFL is now Philips. Ray |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Ray King wrote: I think our polititions are afraid to tell the American public how fast/serious the worlds energy is being depleated. How about you tell me ? I'm all ears. Graham |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Serge Auckland wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. Not really. The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm a room. I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is. Graham |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. Not really. The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm a room. I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is. Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-) |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. Not really. The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm a room. I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is. Graham I'm not so sure about that. Go to downtown Vegas and walk under the entrance awnings of some of the 'legacy' casinos that still have incandescent lighting rather than LEDs, and then tell me that it doesn't feel like having an electric fire a few feet over your head ... Arfa |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. Not really. The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm a room. I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is. Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-) What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ? It can't be radiated into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch. Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~} Arfa |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Arfa Daily wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. Not really. The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm a room. I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is. Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-) What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ? What vacuum ? It can't be radiated into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch. Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~} Both do. It's called infra red radiation. There's also conduction too. Graham |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Eeyore" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Serge Auckland wrote: Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't. If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner. Not really. The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm a room. I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is. Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-) What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ? What vacuum ? It can't be radiated into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch. Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~} Both do. It's called infra red radiation. There's also conduction too. Graham Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... Arfa |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Half a Brain Daily" Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, ** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with very low IR absorption. Eg: " Infrasil ". whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... ** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs. Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they get damn hot. ....... Phil |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Arfa Daily wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Arfa Daily wrote: Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~} Both do. It's called infra red radiation. There's also conduction too. Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a non-reactive gas mixture. Graham |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Half a Brain Daily" Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, ** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with very low IR absorption. Eg: " Infrasil ". whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... ** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs. Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they get damn hot. ...... Phil Ok, I'll buy that. Arfa |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Arfa Daily wrote: Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~} Both do. It's called infra red radiation. There's also conduction too. Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a non-reactive gas mixture. Graham Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum bulbs at http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html Arfa |
#19
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Spehro Pefhany wrote in
: http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html That is such a good read I've seen bits of postings by him in the LaserFAQ, but I never followed up enough to know how much good stuff he wrote. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:19:52 GMT, the renowned Eeyore
wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Arfa Daily wrote: Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~} Both do. It's called infra red radiation. There's also conduction too. Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a non-reactive gas mixture. Graham Many high voltage/low power bulbs are vacuum, IIRC. Don Klipstein says break-even is 6-10W/cm of filament. http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Serge Auckland" wrote in
message "Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "JANA" wrote in message ... If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it, the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker. Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same. Right now, they are a moving target as the designs of their electronics packages becomes more sophisticated and purpose-driven. Regular CFL's cannot be used on standard light dimmers and many of the electronic timers. This is a big inconvenience for many people. Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a wide variety of applications. When regular lamps become unavailable, I can see a lot of problems with these new types of lamps. The biggest one will be the pollution from their disposal. They use mercury, phosphors, and many types of materials that are very harmful for the environment. There is also the electronics circuit board, which contain components that have the same recycling problem as used in most electronics. Even though they last longer, when they are eventually put out in to the garbage, they will eventually end up in the land fills. They are going to be a very big problem compared to the simple light bulb that was made of simple glass and metals. True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1. Regular light bulb materials are about 85% recyclable. There are almost no materials in these that are bad for the environment. Most CFL's materials are not recyclable, and their materials are very polluting. They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable. It looks very strong that the government is pushing the CFL's to save some electricity to sell to large industry. This is the only answer that is logical. There are NO green house gasses from using regular light bulbs. When more electricity is sold to industry, the pollution problems from its generation will actually increase, unless the generation is from water power, or nuclear power. This is a very flawed argument. Industry is going to get the power they need. They don't buy power for the fun of it. These are my (well known) views also, but I fear we are squeaking like little lost mice in the dark ... Mixed bag. Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. In the summer, less heat means less need for air conditioning. In the winter, less heat from electricity for lighting may have to be offset to keep the rooms at the same temperature, but space heating often comes from more efficient sources. Electricity generation has about 70% waste back at the generating plant, plus significant losses due to transmission and distribution. Natural gas doesn't have the 70% conversion cost, but it does have some losses in transmission and distribution. If you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise. Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above. Putting in a low-energy lamp mean that there is less heat being put into the room, and consequently, more heat has to be supplied externally. Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in maybe 90% of the US in the summer. |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Arny Krueger" Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same. ** No-one said that. Total red herring anyhow. Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a wide variety of applications. ** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find. True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1. ** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often. They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable. ** Nice " selecting the evidence " fallacy. Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above. ** More example selecting. Homes in Australia are mostly all electric. Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in maybe 90% of the US in the summer. ** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little extra heat is mostly welcome. Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production. There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use compulsory. There are serious hazards risks in so doing - particularly home fires which are notoriously fatal. Bad idea, dreamt up by ego tripping, greenie ****wits. ......... Phil |
#23
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Phil Allison wrote: Homes in Australia are mostly all electric. That'll make using less energy easy then. Is there a lot of coal generated electricity and if so is the coal of local origin ? Graham |
#24
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, Maybe a really low-wattage bulb. But at 50 watts and up, you won't comfortably unscrew a hot bulb with your bare fingers. whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ... Arfa |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Phil Allison" wrote:
Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a wide variety of applications. ** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find. I've so far only seen the 3-way variety. Not the ones dimmable by triac (the normal infinitetly variable dimmers we are used to, that only work with incandescent bulbs). True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1. ** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often. Most folks? I would suspect infant mortality if the fluorescent has anywhere close to as short a life as an incandescent. Mine have lasted for years and years in every case. Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above. ** More example selecting. Well, heating a room, in summer, even at night, is not generally a good thing. And it's certainly true that electic resistive heat is not very efficient. So on both counts, the heat from incadescent bulbs is hardly a "feature." Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production. There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use compulsory. So far, compulsory is only in Australia. But I'd say that light bulbs constitute a large load, especially in homes that use gas for their furnace and kitchen. In such homes, only heavy appliances or hair dryers require more than 100 watts or so, yet for light bulbs, that's common. And there are many light bulbs. At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours. Hardly a trivial load. Makes a lot more sense to clamp down on that load, than to get all compulsive about DTV set-top boxes, as the EU has done. Bert |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Arfa Daily wrote:
...snip... Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum bulbs at http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html Arfa "Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each light bulb. However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G [ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ] Later... Ron Capik -- |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Ron Capik wrote in
: "Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each light bulb. Hell yes, and as we know that nature (allegedly) abhors a vaccuum, that someone will really have to press the stuff in there hard. |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Albert Manfredi" "Phil Allison" True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1. ** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often. Most folks? ** Yes. ( snip dumb remark) Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production. There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use compulsory. So far, compulsory is only in Australia. ** You are very ignorant. The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two years or so. Same goes for Australia, New Zealand and some US states. But I'd say that light bulbs constitute a large load, ** Domestic use light bulbs do not. At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours. Hardly a trivial load. ** The major loads in a home are water heaters, fridges, stoves and air conditioners. Indoor light bulbs that are only used at night and only when needed are a small load. ....... Phil |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Ron Capik" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: ...snip... Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum bulbs at http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html Arfa "Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each light bulb. However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G [ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ] Later... Ron Capik -- It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ... ;-) Arfa |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron Capik" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: ...snip... Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum bulbs at http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html Arfa "Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each light bulb. However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G [ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ] Later... Ron Capik -- It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ... ;-) Arfa Ahh, that so reminds me of the winning definition of "politically correct." "" Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."" So do take care as to what end of the vacuum you fill with. G Later... Ron Capik -- |
#31
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Phil Allison wrote: "Albert Manfredi" "Phil Allison" There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use compulsory. So far, compulsory is only in Australia. ** You are very ignorant. The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two years or so. There is as yet no Directive. I've seem some sensible moves towards banning just 'inefficient' incandescents i.e standard tungsten filament types. It would be crazy to eliminate halogens. Graham |
#32
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip, chip. I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and finally, disposal. CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Karl Uppiano" CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip, chip. I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and finally, disposal. CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using the RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like bloody billions of CFLs in private homes !! Insane. ......... Phil |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Phil Allison wrote: "Karl Uppiano" CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip, chip. I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and finally, disposal. CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. More like 4mg. Philips is now using 2mg IIRC. Graham |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip, chip. I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and finally, disposal. CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. What is the mercury used for? The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using the RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like bloody billions of CFLs in private homes !! If it weren't for the disastrous unintended consequences, most legislation would have no effect at all. Insane. Perhaps, but they'll think they made a difference when solar cycle begins to decline again, and the planet starts to cool off again. |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Karl Uppiano" "Phil Allison" CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. What is the mercury used for? ** You stupid or something ?? What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ? Go look it up - fool. ........ Phil |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" "Phil Allison" CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. What is the mercury used for? ** You stupid or something ?? What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ? Go look it up - fool. You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor light". Asshole. |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Karl Up Himself ****wit Piano" CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. What is the mercury used for? ** You stupid or something ?? What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ? Go look it up - fool. You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor light". ** Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again. **** OFF !! Asshole. ......... Phil |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
Ron Capik wrote:
"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each light bulb. However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G As long as you don't say something vacuous... -- We can't possibly imprison 300 million Americans for not paying their taxes, so let's grant all of them amnesty NOW! |
#40
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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Strange problem with low energy light bulb
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Karl Up Himself ****wit Piano" CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it. ** You left out the *BIG* one. All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one. What is the mercury used for? ** You stupid or something ?? What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ? Go look it up - fool. You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor light". ** Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again. **** OFF !! Asshole. Does anybody know what the hell set this guy off? I asked a simple question, not really prepared for an ad-hominem attack. I figured I wasn't the only person on these NG that might benefit from what I thought was probably a simple answer. I did look it up, and after wading through article after article repeating the exact same environmentalist hand-wringing about how toxic this naturally occurring metal is, I finally found an explanation of its role in fluorescent lamps: Fluorescent lamps *are* mercury vapor lamps, although the vapor pressure in fluorescents is different from the bright blue-white lamps traditionally called "mercury vapor lamps". The electric arc in the tube excites the electrons in the mercury vapor atoms so that when they drop back to their base level, they emit photons, primarily in the ultraviolet energy range, which strike the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube, exciting the electrons in the phosphor atoms so that when they drop back to their base level, they emit visible photons. Any number of gases could be used inside the tube, but mercury has been used traditionally in fluorescent lamps. Some newer lamps use less mercury, in favor of alternative elements. Of course there are trade-offs, such as cost and performance. My original question about mercury basically had to do with current practices: Whether it was, in fact, the gas of choice for CFLs. I thought it might be possible that it had some other use that I was not aware of. I guess I crossed some invisible line by asking about it. |
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