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JLNelson19
 
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Default subgrouping drums

I know a common mixing technique is to send the drums and maybe the bass to a
stereo aux return, highly compress this stereo submix, and bring it up low in
the mix to add a subtle "punch" to the drum kit. When I do this I get phasing
problems (especially on the snare), which seems to make sense. Is there
anything that is typically done to prevent phasing issues when subgrouping
drums? The music I'm mixing is electronic, i.e. there are no overheads, etc.
thanks for any suggestions.

jn
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Blind Joni
 
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Default subgrouping drums

Is there
anything that is typically done to prevent phasing issues when subgrouping
drums? The music I'm mixing is electronic, i.e. there are no overheads, etc.
thanks for any suggestions.


Is this a DAW setup? The subgroup processing may be causing a latency delay.
What program are you using and is there delay compensation available?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
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Mike Rivers
 
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Default subgrouping drums


In article writes:

I know a common mixing technique is to send the drums and maybe the bass to a
stereo aux return, highly compress this stereo submix, and bring it up low in
the mix to add a subtle "punch" to the drum kit. When I do this I get phasing
problems (especially on the snare), which seems to make sense.


This sounds like you're either mixing in a computer, using a digital
mixing console, or a digital compressor. There's some delay in the
compressed signal path and that's what's causing the phasing effect.

The way to fix this is to delay the original signal so that it lines
up with the processed version. If you're working on a DAW, the easiest
way to do this is probably to record the processed signal on a new
track, then just slid that track back a few samples at a time until it
lines up with the unprocessed version.

Otherwise, you'll probably have to do some trickery like route the
output of the original channel (from which your's sending the signal
to the compressor) to a new channel, take the original channel
completely out of the mix, and delay the re-assigned channel to match
the compressed signal. If you do what comes naturally and delay the
input to the channel that you're working on, you'll also delay the
auxiliary send output, defeating the purpose.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #5   Report Post  
Monte P McGuire
 
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Default subgrouping drums

In article ,
BananaHead wrote:
Phase problems bigtime. I messed around with phase flip switches,
either on the bombed track or the original ones. In some cases this
helped. Others it didn't.


Polarity switches will not fix the effects of a time delay.

If you're working on a DAW try moving the
nuked track ever so slightly forward or backward in time. Just a
little pinch will align things differently. That usually does the
trick.


If you run out of a workstation to a converter and back, or to an
effect and back, this path will have a specific and repeatable delay.
Find out what that delay is and compensate for it. It's not some sort
of voodoo or something you'd want to adjust by ear, unless you have a
lot of spare time. Just measure it by recording stuff through it and
reading the delay off of a waveform view of the source and return
tracks, delay the direct path by that amount and you're done.

If you absolutely can't figure out what the delay is, set the outboard
gear to do as little processing as possible (while preserving the same
delay it'd have when you were using it for real), add a variable delay
to the direct path, set up the direct or effect path to invert (but
not both) and try to make the two paths cancel by adjusting the delay
time. When you're getting closer, the difference between the delayed
direct and the processed signal will lose more and more low
frequencies until it's gone entirely. Of course, you have to also
level match the direct and effected paths to get a cancellation, but
this shouldn't be too tough in a workstation either.


Have fun,

Monte McGuire



  #6   Report Post  
JLNelson19
 
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Default subgrouping drums

Thanks for the replies. I should have stated that I'm using Pro Tools, and no
outboard processing. I found that the phasing problems were indeed caused by
latency in the plug-ins on the aux input channel. I guess the easiest thing to
do is record the subgroup, then move it forward in time until it is back in
phase. Quite a pain, especially if you decide you want to change something in
the submix.
  #7   Report Post  
Monte P McGuire
 
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Default subgrouping drums

In article ,
JLNelson19 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I should have stated that I'm using Pro Tools, and no
outboard processing. I found that the phasing problems were indeed caused by
latency in the plug-ins on the aux input channel. I guess the easiest thing to
do is record the subgroup, then move it forward in time until it is back in
phase. Quite a pain, especially if you decide you want to change something in
the submix.


Printing effected tracks is never the easy way!

If you're trying to do parallel compression, route the submix to a bus
and bring the bus back on two separate aux inputs. Add your
processing to one of the auxes and add a delay to the other to
compensate for the processing delay. The Waves DLA is what I usually
use, but Digi gives you a simple delay for this purpose with the
DigiRack plugins, so you do have one available. Problem solved.

Don't know how long to set the delay? Hold the command key down and
click on the fader volume level display of each of the aux input
strips. This changes the display to the peak hold level
display... click again and you get a readout of that channel's
processing delay in samples. Adjust the delay until both of the
parallel auxes read the same number of samples. (Some delays don't
count the 2 or 3 sample TDM insert delay, so don't just do subtraction
and set the delay to that number. Always check the aux input's delay
readout to make sure you got it right).

If you're getting delays of more than 40-50 samples, I'd also consider
delaying the other tracks so as not to mess up the feel of the
performance. Even something as small as a millisecond will affect the
feel of a track, so I say why mess up something that ain't messed up.
Yeah, it's a pain, but the DLA is cheap DSP wise, so it's not a
problem to put them where you need them. Also note that if you're
processing tracks that share acoustic bleed, any processing delays not
common to all the tracks might change how the bleed works, so those
might also be worth aligning, even if you have only 5-10 samples of
relative delay.

In extreme cases, such as trying to use something like an FIR EQ, I'll
slip the processed tracks forward to compensate for the delay (and put
a note on the scribble strip for those tracks, so I won't forget later
on). The Waves LinEQ has so much delay, you'd need several DLAs to
compensate and that's a waste of inserts and DSP.

Delay compensation is pretty much a pain in the rear, but you do have
the tools available to make it work without resorting to printing
effected tracks.


Best of luck,

Monte McGuire

  #8   Report Post  
Blind Joni
 
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Default subgrouping drums

Delay compensation is pretty much a pain in the rear, but you do have
the tools available to make it work without resorting to printing
effected tracks.


Never used ProTools.
Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro tools?
That doesn't seem right. What a PITA!!


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
  #10   Report Post  
2mb
 
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Default subgrouping drums

Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro
tools?
This might be difficult to get right. I have noticed on my DAW that some
plugins introduce a longer delay than others. I have a harmonizer that adds
almost 30 ms of delay most others add about 7-10ms. To auto correct you
would need to know the delay spec for every plugin.

To add to this, the adjustable buffer settings might complicate matters.

I know nothing about Pro Tools (except what I have read in marketing hype)
so can't talk about how the TDM system works. Pro Tools's TDM spec may
require the plugin to provide delay compensation feedback or something. It
seems logical that such a sophisticated (and expensive) DAW should do this.




  #11   Report Post  
Blind Joni
 
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Default subgrouping drums

It
seems logical that such a sophisticated (and expensive) DAW should do this.


I also use Samplitude and this is a godsend..never worry about it anymore.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
  #12   Report Post  
Monte P McGuire
 
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Default subgrouping drums

In article ,
Blind Joni wrote:
Never used ProTools.
Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro tools?
That doesn't seem right. What a PITA!!


Yeah, they don't do delay compensation, except for the case of RTAS
tracks on a TDM mix - those are comepnsated for free...

But, TDM inserts are not compensated for. The excuse is that with the
complex routing that you can do in the mixer, you can't easily correct
for it in the general case (unless they add delay memory to their
mixer and change the way buses work).

For example, it's possible to 'Y' off a bussed signal to two different
aux inputs, each with differing delays. To get this to work, the
bussed signal would have to be delayed inside of the mixer plugin for
each separate path, and two TDM timeslots would have to be used, one
for each Y'ed path. Things could be done this way, but they aren't.

I'd be happy enough with delay compensation only on disk tracks (not
aux inputs). This would solve 99% of the hassles and the only thing
to change would be what offset is handed to DAE to tell it when to
play the file - the existing mixer and bussing scheme would not have
to be changed.

A parallel compressor setup would have to be hand compensated, but
that's a lot less daunting than having to hand compensate a pile of
tracks and keep track of what's going on when you switch among
different plugins.

Someday, maybe they'll do it. Or not...


Regards,

Monte McGuire

  #13   Report Post  
Monte P McGuire
 
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Default subgrouping drums

In article ,
Monte P McGuire wrote:
In article ,
Blind Joni wrote:
Never used ProTools.
Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro tools?
That doesn't seem right. What a PITA!!


Yeah, they don't do delay compensation, except for the case of RTAS
tracks on a TDM mix - those are comepnsated for free...


^^^^^^

....shoulda said 'inserts', not 'tracks'...


Monte McGuire

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