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Andrew Barss Andrew Barss is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

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Kalman Rubinson[_3_] Kalman Rubinson[_3_] is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On 3 Mar 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Andrew Barss
wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss


What you are describing is a form of bi-amping, not just bi-wiring.
However, the answer is the same in both cases: No real advantage.

Kal


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...
I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).


Is there any real advantage to doing this?


No.

Most speaker manufacturers who provide bi-wiring terminals do so as to not
alienate the reviewers and audionuts who think that Bi-wiring actually makes
a difference.

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Sonnova Sonnova is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 15:57:43 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ):

On 3 Mar 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Andrew Barss
wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss


What you are describing is a form of bi-amping, not just bi-wiring.
However, the answer is the same in both cases: No real advantage.

Kal



Under certain circumstances, bi-amping can be beneficial; like for servo'd
subwoofers, etc., but there is no technological advantage to bi-wiring. None
at all. Speaker wires not big enough for you? Use bigger cables, it's just as
good as doubling-up on the smaller cables - cheaper too.
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Greg Wormald Greg Wormald is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg


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[email protected] pfjw@aol.com is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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[email protected] S888Wheel@aol.com is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter? That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?
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Sonnova Sonnova is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg


A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.
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Codifus Codifus is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

Two songs in my music collection which tend to make the effect of bi-
wiring most apparent are Erykah Badu's "Other side of the game" and
"Shimmer", from Erik and Arvid.

On Eryka's song, the bass of this song, the whole album, actually, is
stupendously powerful. Eryka's gentle and soulful vocal floats above
the smooth and powerfull bottom. When my system was not bi-wired, I
would sometimes pick up that Erykah's voice was being modulated by the
bass. With bi-wiring, her voice now sails along more effortlessly
while the bass continues to thrump strongly.


For Erik and Arvid's Shimmer, this song has an incredible strong mid-
range synthesizer with a funky and strong bass section. Again, without
bi-wiring, there were times that the synthesizer sounded as if it was
being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, both sections sing
independently of each other in full force.


CD

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MiNe 109 MiNe 109 is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.


Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.

Stephen


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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

wrote in message ...
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16 am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving
each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the
whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter? That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?


Superposition.
S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com
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Sonnova Sonnova is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote
(in article ):

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?


That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable
difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and
AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via

Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel
runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single
resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1
Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks
back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance
of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm
(over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies
much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no
difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms
(I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it
up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished
by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such
mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect,
etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a
bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive
reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal
and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40)
as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of
the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those
into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at
those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same
length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees
that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero.

That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?


Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All
first year electronics technician stuff.

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Sonnova Sonnova is offline
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 16:23:18 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ):

On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.


I'll just bet it is.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.


I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.

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Default Bi-wiring?

On Mar 4, 7:23*pm, codifus wrote:
On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:





Please note the interpolations.


Please forgive the top-posting.


On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".


I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.


Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

Two songs in my music collection which tend to make the effect of bi-
wiring most apparent are Erykah Badu's "Other side of the game" and
"Shimmer", from Erik and Arvid.

On Eryka's song, the bass of this song, the whole album, actually, is
stupendously powerful. Eryka's gentle and soulful vocal floats above
the smooth and powerfull bottom. When my system was not bi-wired, I
would sometimes pick up that Erykah's voice was being modulated by the
bass. With bi-wiring, her voice now sails along more effortlessly
while the bass continues to thrump strongly.

For Erik and Arvid's Shimmer, this song has an incredible strong mid-
range synthesizer with a funky and strong bass section. Again, without
bi-wiring, there were times that the synthesizer sounded as if it was
being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, both sections sing
independently of each other in full force.

CD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Those would be very poorly designed speakers in that case. Considering
that the only _actual_ separation between the two systems (Woof &
Rest) is the jumper at the terminals. What happens inside the box is
identical in either case. And in either case the crossover system(s)
remain(s) in place and in-use.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Sonnova Sonnova is offline
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Default Bi-wiring?

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:13:15 -0800, MiNe 109 wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.


Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.

Stephen


You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)?


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On Mar 4, 10:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:

I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.


Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out
earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi-
wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste
in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio
recordings.

Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the
instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical
recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term
dynamic that bi-wiring brings out.

I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae
etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a
system more readily apparent than other types.

CD.

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"codifus" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:


The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.


You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.

emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.


That's why there are such things as crossovers. The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.


You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.


There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.



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On Mar 4, 8:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote
(in article ):





On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.


Please forgive the top-posting.


On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".


I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.


Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?


That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable
difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and
AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via

Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel
runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single
resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1
Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks
back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance
of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm
(over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies
much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no
difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms
(I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it
up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished
by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such
mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect,
etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a
bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive
reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal
and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40)
as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of
the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those
into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at
those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same
length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees
that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero.

*That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you

thinking of and how do they apply here?


Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All
first year electronics technician stuff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thanks! Saved me the trouble.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.


You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)?


Yes. The subjective reaction was to wonder what was wrong with the
passive crossovers. A direct comparison was impractical, of course, so
nay-sayers can console themselves that I'm fooling myself.

Stephen
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In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg


A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.


bbbbbzzzzzzztttttttttt
Sorry, no prize.

My wife could tell the difference she walked into the room--without
knowing that I had done anything at all.

Please remember that expectations, as well as providing a difference
when none exists, can also delete a difference where it does exist.

Greg


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Default Bi-wiring?

wrote in message ...
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:


Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.


For real?


Yes.

Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?


There are always measurable differences! I can measure the difference in the
resistance between a wire the same wire as the room temperature varies.

The differences, which can be predicted theoretically and also measured, are
way too small to matter.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


I repeat, there are always measurable differences!

Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply
here?


An amplifier, speaker cables, and speakers constitute an electrical network.
There are a number of laws of physics, such as Ohm's law and Kirchoff's law
that are relevant.

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Default Bi-wiring?

On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote:
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Unless the laws of physics have been repealed
recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make
no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

For real? Based on the laws of physics there
should be no measurable differences? The
output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


He didn't say that, did he?

Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?


Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific
laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how
to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think
liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think
Thevenin).

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Default Bi-wiring?

On Mar 5, 6:22*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message

...

On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:
The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.


You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.

*emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.


That's why there are such things as crossovers. *The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.

We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed
to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly.
You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but
pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to
better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's
signal.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.


You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I use relatively fat 12 gauge cables. I don't know if you recall, but
in another thread where my speakers kept dying and you had later
advised me on how the impedance switch was designed in my Yamaha
amplifier. The switch had 2 settings, 6 ohms and above, or 4 ohms and
below. I kept the setting at 4 ohms and below, illogically thinking
that the amp would drive the speakers harder. After several times of
having my speakers blowing their crossovers, I tried it at the other
setting and immediately noticed that the amp actually drove the
speakers harder in the 6 ohms and above setting. This correlated with
how you later described the impedance switch from looking at the
service manual. Basically, you said the switch "selects different
paris of taps on the secondary winding of the power transformer" etc.

Also, I have a Behringer SRC 2496 DAC which is pretty much just
sitting there doing nothing. I've listened to it and hate it. I bought
it because of all the wonderful mods I've heard on the net that could
really bring the SRC to life and make it a credible inexpensive DAC.
It turns out that mine was a newer version where practically
everything inside was consolidated into 3 or 4 ICs on a board, and
therefore un-modifiable. Earlier versions had 2 or 3 boards with
capacitors etc which made modding easy.

My point is that I don't always believe in every change that I make. I
try to keep myself objective. This bi-wiring I believe in, and it
makes itself apparent in certain types of music. If you don't listen
to that type of music, you may not notice it. I certainly didn't
notice it in most of my collection. But in some songs, it is quite
apparent. Like I said earlier, music with very strong mid-range and
bass power will bring out the effects of bi-wiring. On classical
music, I wouldn't really notice, unless someone can suggest some
classical music that would fit that criteria. I am more than willing
to give it a listen and compare.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.


There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.


Two sets of 12 gauge cables would seem a bit over-done in my setup

CD

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On Mar 5, 9:14*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote
(in article ):



On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.


Please forgive the top-posting.


On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:


Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.


Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".


I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.


I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.


Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?


That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable
difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and
AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via

Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel
runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single
resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1
Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks
back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance
of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm
(over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies
much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no
difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms
(I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it
up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished
by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such
mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect,
etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a
bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive
reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal
and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40)
as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of
the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those
into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at
those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same
length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees
that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero.

*That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you

*****ing of and how do they apply here?


Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All
first year electronics technician stuff.


I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any
difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of
course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect
of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:-

1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and
it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like
that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't
this little current affect the tweeter?

2) By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter.

Is this possible?

Regards,
Chelvam
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On 5 Mar, 07:20, wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote:

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Unless the laws of physics have been repealed
recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make
no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

For real? Based on the laws of physics there
should be no measurable differences? The
output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


He didn't say that, did he?


In effect he did. Unless you feel measurements are somehow
indiscernable. Might want to wipe the mud off the meters if you are
having a problem with this sort of thing.



Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?


Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific
laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how
to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think
liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think
Thevenin).


Right back at what good buddy? I didn't make the assertion. It's a
pretty simple question. Do the laws of physics tell us that there will
be no difference in the signal with bi-wiring or not. You seem to
fancy yourself an expert. What is the answer? will there be no
difference on your test bench?




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codifus wrote:
We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed
to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly.
You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but
pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to
better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's
signal.


How does it do that?

In other words - exactly what is it that bi-wiring is believed
to do, and how?

Bob M.

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Default Bi-wiring?

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:24:50 -0800, ST wrote
(in article ):

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

[Moderator's note: All of you need to start doing a much better job of
snipping quoted text that does not directly relate to your response,
else we will start rejecting wholesale any posts that fail to do it.
-- deb ]


I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any
difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of
course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect
of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:-

1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and
it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like
that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't
this little current affect the tweeter?


No. First of all, the back EMF (as this voltage is called) is quite small.
Secondly, ostensibly, there is a capacitor in series with both the tweeter
and the midrange (if any). The size of the capacitor is calculated to block
frequencies below a certain maximum. The purpose of this is to keep low
frequency energy (where the power is) from entering the smaller speakers
which, generally speaking, cannot handle as much power as the low frequency
driver. The second purpose in keeping low frequencies out of the tweeter is
to avoid intermodulation distortion by not letting the small tweeter
diaphragm move in response to a frequency range over which it can move, but
over which it is incapable of producing any sound. By definition, this
capacitor will keep back EMF out of the tweeter as well because the back EMF
is also at a frequency below the crossover point.

2) By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter.

Is this possible?


Nope. Electrically, they are the same point because they are tied together at
the amplifier output terminals. It really doesn't matter whether you tie the
tweeter to the amp at the amplifier terminals using two runs of speaker
cable, or at the speaker itself using the applied straps between the woofer
terminals and the tweeter terminals, it's the same. As I said, there would be
no disturbance to the tweeter anyway because that's what the crossover
network is for.

Regards,
Chelvam


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"codifus" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 10:14 pm, Sonnova wrote:

I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.


Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out
earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi-
wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste
in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio
recordings.

Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the
instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical
recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term
dynamic that bi-wiring brings out.

I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae
etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a
system more readily apparent than other types.

CD.

But bi-wiring can't make a difference as the laws of physics don't allow it.
So, any ideas that different types of music will show up different
capabilities is pure fantasy.

If you really believe that you can hear bi-wiring making a difference, can
you please suggest a mechanism by which this could be? Please suggest a
hypothesis that can be tested. Please suggest some tests by which we can
verify independently what you suggest is the case. Otherwise, it's just
opinion, with no basis in reality.

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com
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On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:22:08 -0800, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"codifus" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:


The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.


You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.


And are blocked from the tweeter by the crossover capacitor, anyway.

emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.


That's why there are such things as crossovers. The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.


Exactly.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.


You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.


There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.


Electrically, either is exactly the same.
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On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:24:19 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ):

On Mar 5, 6:22*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message

...

On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:
The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.


You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.

*emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.


That's why there are such things as crossovers. *The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.

We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed
to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly.
You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but
pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to
better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's
signal.


Nonsense! The capacitors in series with the tweeter will not pass a low
frequency signal below the crossover point and any "Back EMF" from a
low-frequency driver will be below the crossover. The characteristics of LC
networks in conjunction with AC signals is well understood as is the
interaction of speaker back EMF with amplifier output stages.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.


You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I use relatively fat 12 gauge cables. I don't know if you recall, but
in another thread where my speakers kept dying and you had later
advised me on how the impedance switch was designed in my Yamaha
amplifier. The switch had 2 settings, 6 ohms and above, or 4 ohms and
below. I kept the setting at 4 ohms and below, illogically thinking
that the amp would drive the speakers harder. After several times of
having my speakers blowing their crossovers, I tried it at the other
setting and immediately noticed that the amp actually drove the
speakers harder in the 6 ohms and above setting. This correlated with
how you later described the impedance switch from looking at the
service manual. Basically, you said the switch "selects different
paris of taps on the secondary winding of the power transformer" etc.

Also, I have a Behringer SRC 2496 DAC which is pretty much just
sitting there doing nothing. I've listened to it and hate it. I bought
it because of all the wonderful mods I've heard on the net that could
really bring the SRC to life and make it a credible inexpensive DAC.
It turns out that mine was a newer version where practically
everything inside was consolidated into 3 or 4 ICs on a board, and
therefore un-modifiable. Earlier versions had 2 or 3 boards with
capacitors etc which made modding easy.

My point is that I don't always believe in every change that I make. I
try to keep myself objective. This bi-wiring I believe in, and it
makes itself apparent in certain types of music. If you don't listen
to that type of music, you may not notice it. I certainly didn't
notice it in most of my collection. But in some songs, it is quite
apparent. Like I said earlier, music with very strong mid-range and
bass power will bring out the effects of bi-wiring. On classical
music, I wouldn't really notice, unless someone can suggest some
classical music that would fit that criteria. I am more than willing
to give it a listen and compare.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.


There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.


Two sets of 12 gauge cables would seem a bit over-done in my setup


Well, it won't hurt anything and probably looks impressive. :-)



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On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:18:33 -0800, MiNe 109 wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.


You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)?


Yes. The subjective reaction was to wonder what was wrong with the
passive crossovers. A direct comparison was impractical, of course, so
nay-sayers can console themselves that I'm fooling myself.

Stephen


Active crossover can have advantages. They can have steeper slopes and
flatter turnover points than passive crossovers. Arguably this could make the
frequency response of the speaker system flatter, with fewer dips at the
crossover frequencies. What one needs to do is weigh the advantages of the
active crossover with the disadvantages of adding extra active stages to your
signal path. Generally held wisdom says the simpler, the cleaner.

I used to use a passive crossover between my pre-amp and my power amplifiers
to bi-amp my Magnaplanar MG-3Bs. The beauty of it was it's simplicity. Merely
a couple of small capacitors, a couple of resistors and two pots (to match
the gains of the two different power amplifiers: tubes on the midrange
panels/ribbon tweeters and solid-state on the bass panels.). My thinking was
that a solid-state amp with its superior damping factor, would better control
the bass while the tube amps would give me the creamy midrange and sweet,
open highs characteristic of tubes. Frankly I really don't know whether I
gained anything or not, but that was the system, it worked well and the
speakers sounded fine, so I left it that way. I do not bi-amp my current
Martin-Logans, however.
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On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:17:41 -0800, wrote
(in article ):

On 5 Mar, 07:20, wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote:

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Unless the laws of physics have been repealed
recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make
no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.
For real? Based on the laws of physics there
should be no measurable differences? The
output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?


He didn't say that, did he?


In effect he did. Unless you feel measurements are somehow
indiscernable. Might want to wipe the mud off the meters if you are
having a problem with this sort of thing.



Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?


Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific
laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how
to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think
liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think
Thevenin).


Right back at what good buddy? I didn't make the assertion. It's a
pretty simple question. Do the laws of physics tell us that there will
be no difference in the signal with bi-wiring or not.


YES. The laws of physics tell us that there will be no difference in the
signal. I went into some detail about this in another post.

You seem to
fancy yourself an expert. What is the answer? will there be no
difference on your test bench?


There will not only not be any meaningful difference on the test bench (like
Arny says in another post, given sensitive enough measuring equipment, you
can always measure differences. For instance, If you take a length of wire
and double it to cut two pieces of the same length (say, three feet) will
they both be exactly three feet? Held against a ruler, one might be 2 ft, 11
and 9/16 inches and the other might be 3 ft, and 7/16th of an inch. Will that
difference make any difference? Probably not.) There won't be any audible
differences either. If you hear them, its because you want to hear them. They
don't really exist.

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Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 5, 10:24*am, ST wrote:

I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any
difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of
course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect
of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:-

1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and
it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like
that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't
this little current affect the tweeter?


Note: We are discussing Bi-WIRING - not Bi-Amping. So, instead of a
small jumper on the back of the speaker between the two sections, you
now have a rather longer, thicker jumper connected at the amp
terminals. Electrically the same as far as the speaker can perceive.

2) *By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter.


No *discernable* difference in what the tweeter sees between bi-wiring
and single-wiring assuming adequate gauge wire and clean, tight
connections in both cases.

Is this possible?


Not as you define the problem. Bi-Amping will isolate the two sections
of the speaker. But not Bi-Wiring. Of course, bi-amping raises the
question as to whether four cables will now be required....

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:21:58 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ):

On Mar 4, 10:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:

I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.


Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out
earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi-
wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste
in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio
recordings.


This is audio mythology. It's right up there with ceramic and foam "lifts" to
keep the speaker cables off the floor, myrtle wood blocks, magic clocks, and
$4000 speaker cables. There is NOTHING to be gained by bi-wiring, it does
NOTHING. If you think you hear a difference, its because you went to the
trouble to install a second cable run. You WANT to hear an improvement in
your sound, so your mind provides it. That's the danger of sighted
evaluations. You will hear what you want to hear. Believe me, in a blind A-B
test, you would not be able to tell the difference between a pair of
bi-wired speakers and an identical pair NOT bi-wired.

Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the
instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical
recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term
dynamic that bi-wiring brings out.


That's because it doesn't exist. It CAN'T exist. There is no electrical
theory that could possibly account for such a phenomenon.

I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae
etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a
system more readily apparent than other types.


Especially when you want to hear such differences. Look, I'm not saying this
to rain on anybody's parade, I'm merely telling you that any differences that
you think you hear with bi-wiring are all illusions. There are no laws of
electrical physics that apply and when it comes to wire, believe me, the
subject has pretty well been researched to death. There are no unknowns. Wire
is the backbone of the world's information infrastructure. There are billions
of miles of it all over the world. It's properties, at all frequencies, with
all types of signals has been characterized for the last 150 years. We know
everything there is to know about how wire behaves with any kind of signal,
over any distance that you can imagine. I spent more than three years
studying and experimenting with different kinds of wire to be used in
aerospace in the Lockheed cable lab. So you can believe me when I say that
bi-wiring is a myth, so are expensive speaker cables and expensive
interconnects. The only thing about interconnects that you need concern
yourself about is that the cable is constructed so that the shield does not
carry any signal (called quasi-balanced. Interconnects that are designed this
way can be identified because they usually have an arrow on them somewhere
denoting direction. This is because the shield is connected to the RCA
plug's "barrel" on one end, but not on the other. This arrow denotes which
end the shield is connected to (arrow points away from the shield
connection), not the direction of signal "flow". All shields should terminate
at one common point (which would be the pre-amp or integrated amp) for lowest
noise). The only other consideration should be build quality. Cheap cables
invite problems down the line. Good quality interconnects should last
indefinitely and shouldn't cost more than about $30-$50 for a 1 meter pair.
As for speaker cable, any speaker cable of sufficient size should fill the
bill nicely. Something like the clear-jacketed Monster is fine, but like
interconnects, good speaker connections insure reliability. So perhaps
something like the *Monster Z1 with factory applied banana plug terminations
at $2.50/ft or so isn't a bad investment. Again, the point is, with wire, the
terminations and build quality are FAR more important than the wire itself.
Wire is wire. If it is of sufficient gauge to carry the current required
(IOW, 16 Ga or larger for most domestic installations of 20 ft or less), it
is adequate End of story.

*I'm not specifically recommending Monster cable or any other brand. I used
Monster as an example only. Brand doesn't matter. All speaker wire sounds the
same. There is no way that it couldn't.

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Greg Wormald wrote:
In article ,
Sonnova wrote:


On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg


A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.


bbbbbzzzzzzztttttttttt
Sorry, no prize.


My wife could tell the difference she walked into the room--without
knowing that I had done anything at all.


bbbbzzzttt. Not a valid control.

Please remember that expectations, as well as providing a difference
when none exists, can also delete a difference where it does exist.


Remember above all that sighted comparisons, aren't usually
sources of good data, particualrly when there is no
technically valid reason for 'biwiring' to work.

--
-S
We have it in our power to begin the world over again - Thomas Paine


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On Mar 5, 10:24*am, ST wrote:
I am music lover and would like to share observation.
I can't tell any difference whatsoever nor any of my
so called audiophile friends. Of course I didn't tell
them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect
of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:-

1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to
generate electricity and it suppose reverse to
the amplifier or get filtered or something like
that.


Yeah, or something like that, but not.

So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't
this little current affect the tweeter?


No. Why would it There are a several reasons why it
won't:

1. Let's take your little voltage "generator" model:
That voltage generated by the voice coil is isolated
from the rest of the system FIRST by the series
DC resistance of the voice coil. In the non-biwiring
case, it's a short hop over to the tweeter, where
there's already a pretty hefty filter to prevent this
stuff from getting through. But, as importantly,
there's also a near dead short to ground: the
output impedance of the amplifier.

Let's follow the tortured path of the signal. Assume
speaker leads are 10 feet of 16 gauge standard
copper zip cord. That's 0.08 ohms resistance. Now
assume the amplifier has a modest, but not atypical
output impedance at low frequencies of, oh, 0.16
ohms (a "damping factor" of 50). And lastly, assume
a 7 ohm resistance in the woofer voice coil.

IN the non-biwrired case, the "generator voltage"
you hypothesize will be attenuated by the series
attenuator formed by the DC resistance and the
combination of the speaker lead and amplifier
resistance, e.g.:

G = (0.08+0.16)/(0.08+0.16+7)

Which works out to 30 dB.

And THAT voltage is further attenuated by the
tweeter crossover. Assume the tweeter crosses
over at 2000 Hz with a 12 dB/octave slope, and
the woofer system resonance (the point at which
your "generator voltage" is at its max) is 50 Hz.

That tweeter crossover then further attenuates
you "little generator voltage by a further 70 dB,
for a total attenuation of about 100 dB by the
time it reaches the tweeter.

So let's bi-wire using the same wire. Now, the
attenuation at the point where the tweeter and
woofer can talk to each other has merely been
moved from the speaker to the amplifer: the
connection is still there, just with the resistances
in a slightly different position.

In the bi-wire case, the attenuation is now:

G = (0.16)/(0.16+0.24+7)

or 33 dB. Add to that the same 70 dB of crossover
attenuation, and you now get 103 dB.

Can you show that the level difference at the tweeter
of a 50 Hz signal that's 100 dB vs 103 dB down is
discernable?

2. GO bone up on the good Mr. Thevenin. When you've
done that, you can show that, at resonance, the point
where the back EMF voltage is at its maximum, the
load presented to the amplifier looks like a pure
resistor: Thevenin's theorem states, in such a case
that there is no difference between an 8 ohm voice
coil with a back-EMF behind it equal to 3/4 of the
impressed amplifier voltage, and a 32 ohm resistor
with no generator (a very typical impedance of a
woofer at resonance).

Unless you are ready to prove Mr. Thevenin wrong,
why would you expec a 32 ohm load to benefit from
bi-wiring (hint: it doesn't).

3. Take the example worked on in point #1: replace
the 16 gauge wire in the non bi-wired case with
12 gauge wire. Just that alone will give you 102
dB of total attenuation.

2) *By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter.
Is this possible?


It can be shown that it does not have the effect
claimed by the proponents of biwiring.

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On Mar 5, 3:17*pm, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message

...

On Mar 4, 10:14 pm, Sonnova wrote:


I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.


Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out
earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi-
wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste
in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio
recordings.


Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the
instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical
recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term
dynamic that bi-wiring brings out.


I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae
etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a
system more readily apparent than other types.


CD.


But bi-wiring can't make a difference as the laws of physics don't allow it.
So, any ideas that different types of music will show up different
capabilities is pure fantasy.


Really? OK. So, every capacitor, inductor, resistor etc in an
electrical circuit behaves perfectly, as defined by the laws of
physics? No, of course not. Capacitors have resistance, inductors have
capicatance and so forth. It goes to follow that circuits built from
these imperfect components won't behave perfectly, just more or less
perfectly. ------Quite oxymoronic, that last statement, don't you
think?

You resort to the laws of physics which is fine for a textbook case,
which this isn't.

If you really believe that you can hear bi-wiring making a difference, can
you please suggest a mechanism by which this could be? Please suggest a
hypothesis that can be tested. Please suggest some tests by which we can
verify independently what you suggest is the case. Otherwise, it's just
opinion, with no basis in reality.


I don't recall ever saying it was fact. Just that I observed it, and
believe it. As for tests, I did suggests types of music which would
make the effects of bi-wiring more apparent.

I can't give you everything you want EXACTLY as you want it, but I
sure did try.


S.
--http://audiopages.googlepages.com



CD

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On Mar 5, 7:44*pm, dave a wrote:
wrote:
* * Can you show that the level difference at the tweeter
* * of a 50 Hz signal that's 100 dB vs 103 dB down is
* * discernable?


So you're saying that the 50 Hz signal is twice as loud and you can't
tell the difference? *:-)


A cute reply, thanks, but it leads to one more
step.

It might be instructive to see what the real effect
ends up being. Let's say we're playing along at
a pretty hefty SPL of, oh, 90 dB.

First, that "little generator signal" results in effect
in a signal that's 10 dB vs 13 dB BELOW the
best-case threshold of hearing.

Second, the DIFFERENCE between that -100
vs -103 dB extraneous added BELOW the 90 dB
signal means the difference in SPL of 90.000086
vs 90.000061 dB SPL..

That's indiscernable by ANY means other than silly
speculation.

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On Mar 5, 6:07*pm, codifus wrote:
On Mar 5, 3:17*pm, "Serge Auckland"
But bi-wiring can't make a difference as the laws
of physics don't allow it.
So, any ideas that different types of music will show up different
capabilities is pure fantasy.


Really? OK. So, every capacitor, inductor, resistor
etc in an electrical circuit behaves perfectly, as
defined by the laws of physics? No, of course not.


Sorry, the most assuredly are.

Capacitors have resistance, inductors have
capicatance and so forth.


All of which are very well understood and work
perfectly fine within the laws of physics. Can you
explain your rather absurd claim they don't?

It goes to follow that circuits built from these
imperfect components won't behave perfectly,
just more or less perfectly.


And EXTREMELY predictably, I would add.

You resort to the laws of physics which is fine
for a textbook case, which this isn't.


Nonsense.

Where on earth do you come up with the absurd notion
that non-ideal components are exempt from the laws of
physics, which is, in essence, what you claim?

In fact, non-ideal components follow physics quite
nicely and, in fact, are QUITE well understood
exactly in the context of physics. The fact that
YOU might not understand this is not a situation
that can be extrapolated to the rest of the world,
fortunately.

Every reasonable physics textbook I've come
across deals quite well with non-ideal components
and their behavior under real-world situations.

Perhaps you need new physics textbooks. Or
maybe you don''t have any.

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