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Dumping analog to digital question
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Dumping analog to digital question
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Dumping analog to digital question
"Art Rocker" wrote in message m... Hello, This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...tegory=15 199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? I'm not a Roland user... I've just stumbled into them on occasion. Wouldn't the dumping of all 8 tracks to a single track of the VS make 7 of them load as 'virtual' tracks? Meaning that you could only pick one of them from the respective VS track to play back in the mix? -- David Morgan (MAMS) http://www.m-a-m-s.com http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
#5
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Dumping analog to digital question
The guy selling the deck says (his spelling):
Extreamely low noise for an analog machine, noise reduction not required for use with digital systems. Uh-uh. This is an 8-track 1/2" machine, which means the signal-to-noise ratio is about 3-4dB worse on each track than a professional (8-track 1", 16-track 2") recorder. Even with hot tapes, the signal-to-noise on each track, without noise reduction, is going to be marginal, and once you combine 8 tracks (or more) it'll be something on the order of a type I cassette deck. No, these machines need noise reduction for adequate quiet, and that noise reduction, in my experience, kills all that nice "tape warmth" everyone likes, when it isn't also killing all the highs because the deck wasn't quite aligned right. If you want more tracks, save up for a 1" 8-track deck, or stay with digital. Peace, Paul |
#6
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Dumping analog to digital question
(Art Rocker) wrote in message om...
Hello, This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...tegory=15 199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? Is this sort of thing at all advisable? I just want more tracks as cheaply and as simply as possible? Is the sound quality of this tape recorder any good? Thanks in advance for your help, Alvin Alvin- Sounds like the advertisers is putting a tremendous amount of spin if it is pitched as an analog answer to more tracks- There are much better ways to do this if that is your goal. It sounds like they are taking advantage of the old myth that you need to record to analog first before you transfer to digital for 'warmth'. As an effect, analog is certainly one possibility, but not the best choice if you are simply trying to get more tracks. Consider: 1. Do you want a linear format (tape?)- If so there are many digital formats to choose from that would allow you to keep digital from the first recording. I don't know the VS-840, but most modern gear will synch with an Adat, DA88, etc. 2. If you are interested in nonlinear editing, you might be ready to move up to a digital workstation that would probably expand your mixing and editing- It might be worth synching or even dumping core tracks before you start overdubs. Hope this helps- |
#7
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Dumping analog to digital question
I think the seller is saying: lay down 8 tracks, dump to the digital
recorder - then while monitoring the digital recorder, record through the deck, monitoring repro - while dumping into the recorder in realtime, making the delay compensation afterwards. No SMPTE or sync needed. I wonder if this would work -Paul "georgeh" wrote in message ... The Otaris had SMPTE capability IIRC. But that means you'd need to stripe a track, so you could only record 7 on the Otari. You could probably find a box (maybe an old JL Cooper) to convert the SMPTE to MTC so the VS-840 could chase the Otari w/o needing to stripe a track on that side. That would give you frame accuracy (but not sample if that is important to you). (Art Rocker) writes: This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...2110&category= 15199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? |
#8
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Dumping analog to digital question
Art Rocker wrote:
This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, [link to MX5050mkIII 1/2" 8-track removed] In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. you'd be bouncing tracks with the help of a second multitrack. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? sure. you could also do it with another VS-840 or any other multitrack machine. How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? in the case of the otari you'd stripe one of the tracks with SMPTE, and then chase the VS-840 to it as you dump out more tracks to the otari. then you do a "pre-mixdown" and chase the VS-840 with the signal going from the otari through your mixer to a single track on the VS-840. be aware that the SMPTE stripe will burn one track on the otari leaving you with only 7 tracks available for bounce mixdown. (and SMPTE has a tendency to bleed to an adjacent track on these narrow format machines, so depending on tape and calibration, you might only have 6 usable tracks in practice.) Is this sort of thing at all advisable? if you have to ask, it's probably not. I would suggest investigating if there's some way you could expand your roland unit (add a hard drive?) so you can bounce "in the machine" and failing that, getting another digital multitrack (maybe another VS-840?) and use it to bounce with. I just want more tracks as cheaply and as simply as possible? stay away from analog, then. (: tape machines are not for the faint of heart, and unless you are willing to learn the ins and outs of deck maintenance or hire a technician, you will either get frustrated, or get ****-poor recordings. you cannot just buy a tape deck and expect it to work reliably or consistently without any maintenance. analog decks need much more care and feeding than their digital bretheren. (or should I say "digital analogs"?) Is the sound quality of this tape recorder any good? I'm fond of mine. I've recently been running it without noise reduction with 406 tape, and the tape hiss is noticable and inoffensive, provided I lay off heavy compression on mixdown. your mileage would vary depending on what tape you use and how the machine is calibrated. -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | "Isn't an OS that openly and proudly admits to come directly from Holy UNIX better than a cheap UNIX copycat that needs to be sued in court to determine what the hell it really is?" -- Michael Sokolov |
#9
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Dumping analog to digital question
P Stamler wrote:
The guy selling the deck says (his spelling): Extreamely low noise for an analog machine, noise reduction not required for use with digital systems. Uh-uh. This is an 8-track 1/2" machine, which means the signal-to-noise ratio is about 3-4dB worse on each track than a professional (8-track 1", 16-track 2") recorder. Even with hot tapes, the signal-to-noise on each track, without noise reduction, is going to be marginal, and once you combine 8 tracks (or more) it'll be something on the order of a type I cassette deck. No, these machines need noise reduction for adequate quiet, and that noise reduction, in my experience, kills all that nice "tape warmth" everyone likes, when it isn't also killing all the highs because the deck wasn't quite aligned right. If you want more tracks, save up for a 1" 8-track deck, or stay with digital. Come on, Paul. His "Extremely low noise" line is bull****, but you make it sound like a 1/2" 8-track is unusable. I've made lots of great records on this format, without noise reduction, and noise is NOT a problem. 1/2" 8-track at 15ips is a LONG way from 1/8" 4-track at 1.875ips and really not very far away from 2" 16-track at 15ips. Aside from that, it sounds like the original poster has no idea what makes an analog recorder desirable and undesirable, and should probably not bother with this stuff unless he wants to open a great big can of hassle, expense, maintenance, and general failure to do any recording while he finds out what analog recorders are all about. ulysses |
#10
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Dumping analog to digital question
In article ,
(georgeh) wrote: The Otaris had SMPTE capability IIRC. But that means you'd need to stripe a track, so you could only record 7 on the Otari. You could probably find a box (maybe an old JL Cooper) to convert the SMPTE to MTC so the VS-840 could chase the Otari w/o needing to stripe a track on that side. That would give you frame accuracy (but not sample if that is important to you). You'd only need to stripe for overdubs. You could filll 8 tracks and then dump. At that point I'd strip and make a submix back on to the analog tape. Then add 5 tracks and dump them in snyc with the previously dumped tracks. Or learn the head gap and transfer the tracks out of the digital machine through the analog machine in repro and silde the tracks back so tey are synced with the first ones. Or track everything to digital and then run everything through the analog machine with the heads in repro after all the tracking is done. Then all the tracks will have been delayed identically. This gives you 2 extra conversions which might outweigh the benefits of the analog sound. Or keep it simple and track the rhythm section to 8 tracks of analog, dump and record all overdubs straight to digital. Not all of your trakcs will hit analog tape, but it will be enough that you'll hean an improvment. Then you can mix to tape as well. www.monsterisland.com |
#11
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Dumping analog to digital question
In article , Justin Ulysses
Morse wrote: P Stamler wrote: The guy selling the deck says (his spelling): Extreamely low noise for an analog machine, noise reduction not required for use with digital systems. Uh-uh. This is an 8-track 1/2" machine, which means the signal-to-noise ratio is about 3-4dB worse on each track than a professional (8-track 1", 16-track 2") recorder. Even with hot tapes, the signal-to-noise on each track, without noise reduction, is going to be marginal, and once you combine 8 tracks (or more) it'll be something on the order of a type I cassette deck. No, these machines need noise reduction for adequate quiet, and that noise reduction, in my experience, kills all that nice "tape warmth" everyone likes, when it isn't also killing all the highs because the deck wasn't quite aligned right. If you want more tracks, save up for a 1" 8-track deck, or stay with digital. Come on, Paul. His "Extremely low noise" line is bull****, but you make it sound like a 1/2" 8-track is unusable. I've made lots of great records on this format, without noise reduction, and noise is NOT a problem. 1/2" 8-track at 15ips is a LONG way from 1/8" 4-track at 1.875ips and really not very far away from 2" 16-track at 15ips. Aside from that, it sounds like the original poster has no idea what makes an analog recorder desirable and undesirable, and should probably not bother with this stuff unless he wants to open a great big can of hassle, expense, maintenance, and general failure to do any recording while he finds out what analog recorders are all about. ulysses But don't you think that's a lesson worth learning? Plus all the other little lessons you learn through the process. www.monsterisland.com |
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Dumping analog to digital question
(georgeh)
advised: The Otaris had SMPTE capability IIRC. But that means you'd need to stripe a track, so you could only record 7 on the Otari. You could probably find a box (maybe an old JL Cooper) to convert the SMPTE to MTC so the VS-840 could chase the Otari w/o needing to stripe a track on that side. That would give you frame accuracy (but not sample if that is important to you). (Art Rocker) writes: This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...1512110&catego ry=15199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? Thank you. |
#13
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Dumping analog to digital question
Lowndes" advised:
I think the seller is saying: lay down 8 tracks, dump to the digital recorder - then while monitoring the digital recorder, record through the deck, monitoring repro - while dumping into the recorder in realtime, making the delay compensation afterwards. No SMPTE or sync needed. I wonder if this would work -Paul "georgeh" wrote in message ... The Otaris had SMPTE capability IIRC. But that means you'd need to stripe a track, so you could only record 7 on the Otari. You could probably find a box (maybe an old JL Cooper) to convert the SMPTE to MTC so the VS-840 could chase the Otari w/o needing to stripe a track on that side. That would give you frame accuracy (but not sample if that is important to you). (Art Rocker) writes: This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...2110&category= 15199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? I think what might be easier, as far as "synching" things up, would be to get rid of my VS-840 all together and buy an Mbox. Then, if I got one of these analog 8-tracks, I could fill 'er up, dump it to pro tools, and "nudge" everything around so it lines up. At least, that's how I understand pro tools to operate. I have never used anything other than my VS-840, a Fostex cassette 4-track, and an old Akai "sound-on-sound" reel to reel 2-track. Basically, I just want more tracks because I record alone and I want to layer stuff. Thanks. |
#14
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Dumping analog to digital question
"David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
observed: "Art Rocker" wrote in message om... Hello, This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...512110&categor y=15199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? I'm not a Roland user... I've just stumbled into them on occasion. Wouldn't the dumping of all 8 tracks to a single track of the VS make 7 of them load as 'virtual' tracks? Meaning that you could only pick one of them from the respective VS track to play back in the mix? No. All 8 tracks would just come into the recorder as one big signal. I would probably record the 8 analog tracks to a pair of the Roland VS-840's stereo tracks, in which case it would be just like mixing down to 2-track stereo. Incidentally, I have never used the virtual tracks. I basically just use the thing like a glorified cassette 4-track. As I said, the Roland will start to lock up after you fill 4 tracks (they didn't tell me that when I was one of the last 4 guys in North America to walk into Mars and pay $1000.00 for this machine). Fooling with the virtual tracks would just make things even worse with the limited space on the 250 MB Zip disks. Thanks for your help. |
#15
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Dumping analog to digital question
(P Stamler)
advised: The guy selling the deck says (his spelling): Extreamely low noise for an analog machine, noise reduction not required for use with digital systems. Uh-uh. This is an 8-track 1/2" machine, which means the signal-to-noise ratio is about 3-4dB worse on each track than a professional (8-track 1", 16-track 2") recorder. Even with hot tapes, the signal-to-noise on each track, without noise reduction, is going to be marginal, and once you combine 8 tracks (or more) it'll be something on the order of a type I cassette deck. No, these machines need noise reduction for adequate quiet, and that noise reduction, in my experience, kills all that nice "tape warmth" everyone likes, when it isn't also killing all the highs because the deck wasn't quite aligned right. If you want more tracks, save up for a 1" 8-track deck, or stay with digital. Peace, Paul Thanks for your help. |
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Dumping analog to digital question
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#17
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Dumping analog to digital question
From: (zionstrat)
advised: (Art Rocker) wrote in message . com... Hello, This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...512110&categor y=15199 In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? Is this sort of thing at all advisable? I just want more tracks as cheaply and as simply as possible? Is the sound quality of this tape recorder any good? Thanks in advance for your help, Alvin Alvin- Sounds like the advertisers is putting a tremendous amount of spin if it is pitched as an analog answer to more tracks- There are much better ways to do this if that is your goal. It sounds like they are taking advantage of the old myth that you need to record to analog first before you transfer to digital for 'warmth'. As an effect, analog is certainly one possibility, but not the best choice if you are simply trying to get more tracks. Consider: 1. Do you want a linear format (tape?)- If so there are many digital formats to choose from that would allow you to keep digital from the first recording. I don't know the VS-840, but most modern gear will synch with an Adat, DA88, etc. 2. If you are interested in nonlinear editing, you might be ready to move up to a digital workstation that would probably expand your mixing and editing- It might be worth synching or even dumping core tracks before you start overdubs. Good point. Everyone says that synching up Roland VS machines is a hassle, so I will probably look for an "all-in-one" solution. The obvious answer would seem to be another Multitrack unit such as the Yamaha AW16G, Korg D1600 & et cetera; but for between $1,000 and $1,300 I am thinking I will go with a Pro Tools Digi 001 or Mbox for considerably less money. I can't see the drawback to this solution yet (except for working around latency), but I am looking. Then again, I could just get another multitrack on Ebay, and do the "dumping" routine, without actually synching the machines. In other words, fill up machine A with my basic tracks, dump it to 2 tracks on machine B, then proceed with 6 tracks of overdubs on machine B. I wonder if the sound quality would suffer. Thanks for your help. Hope this helps- Indeed! |
#18
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Dumping analog to digital question
(Aaron J. Grier)
advised: Art Rocker wrote: This guy is selling an 8-track reel-to-reel on Ebay, [link to MX5050mkIII 1/2" 8-track removed] In his description, he implies that someone could record 8 tracks on tape, then dump it to digital, and then do this all over again. you'd be bouncing tracks with the help of a second multitrack. I have a Roland VS-840, but I really want more tracks. If I bought this thing (or something like it), could I record 8 tracks, then transfer the 8 recorded tracks onto track 1 of my VS-840, then record 8 more tracks to tape, and transfer those tracks to track 2 of my VS-840 and so on, and so on? sure. you could also do it with another VS-840 or any other multitrack machine. Okay, this caught my attention. Say I got a second VS-840, how would I dump tracks from VS-840 A to VS-840 B? What would be the best way, and also would the sound quality suffer at all? How could I sync the two machines up so that each time I dumped the tracks, they were in sync with the previously recorded tracks? in the case of the otari you'd stripe one of the tracks with SMPTE, and then chase the VS-840 to it as you dump out more tracks to the otari. then you do a "pre-mixdown" and chase the VS-840 with the signal going from the otari through your mixer to a single track on the VS-840. be aware that the SMPTE stripe will burn one track on the otari leaving you with only 7 tracks available for bounce mixdown. (and SMPTE has a tendency to bleed to an adjacent track on these narrow format machines, so depending on tape and calibration, you might only have 6 usable tracks in practice.) Is this sort of thing at all advisable? if you have to ask, it's probably not. I would suggest investigating if there's some way you could expand your roland unit (add a hard drive?) so you can bounce "in the machine" and failing that, getting another digital multitrack (maybe another VS-840?) and use it to bounce with. Yeah, I am getting more and more convinced that tape, while fantastic sounding, is just not worth getting into for home demos. But your suggestion about a second multitrack is interesting. I could get one on Ebay for a low price. Would you recommend that or getting an Mbox? Also, if I got the Mbox, would I be foolish to continue doing my recording on the Roland and dumping to Pro Tools only for editing? The reason I would do this is because I am wary of the "latency" thing--I have trouble enough staying in time when I track with a click, if I have to deal with lags in my monitors, I will be screwed. Also, I am used to the Roland now and could monitor with its effects. I just want more tracks as cheaply and as simply as possible? stay away from analog, then. (: tape machines are not for the faint of heart, and unless you are willing to learn the ins and outs of deck maintenance or hire a technician, you will either get frustrated, or get ****-poor recordings. you cannot just buy a tape deck and expect it to work reliably or consistently without any maintenance. analog decks need much more care and feeding than their digital bretheren. (or should I say "digital analogs"?) Is the sound quality of this tape recorder any good? I'm fond of mine. I've recently been running it without noise reduction with 406 tape, and the tape hiss is noticable and inoffensive, provided I lay off heavy compression on mixdown. your mileage would vary depending on what tape you use and how the machine is calibrated. Thanks very much for your help. |
#19
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Dumping analog to digital question
MagicaIist wrote:
(Aaron J. Grier) you could also do it [mixdowns] with another VS-840 or any other multitrack machine. Okay, this caught my attention. Say I got a second VS-840, how would I dump tracks from VS-840 A to VS-840 B? What would be the best way, and also would the sound quality suffer at all? if the VS-840 has digital outs and ins, use those. otherwise just hook the analog outs to the analog ins. the question is not whether the sound quality will suffer, but whether you'll be able to notice it or not. even with the analog, I'll bet you won't. Yeah, I am getting more and more convinced that tape, while fantastic sounding, is just not worth getting into for home demos. the bang/buck of modern digital gear is just sooo good. and from a $/song perspective, you can't beat CDRs or even zip disks. I pay ~$20 per reel of tape, and I get ~20 minutes of 8 track per reel. A zip disk is less than a quarter that cost, and holds as much, I'm guessing. my guitar player has a tascam 788 that we're using for recording practices; it has a HD but can be backed up to CDRs. talk about cheap recording media! But your suggestion about a second multitrack is interesting. I could get one on Ebay for a low price. Would you recommend that or getting an Mbox? a computer is a whole other can of worms. it'll likely be as big a pain in the ass as an analog deck will, just in different ways. whether or not you can live with them is a matter of preference. (: Also, if I got the Mbox, would I be foolish to continue doing my recording on the Roland and dumping to Pro Tools only for editing? I bet the Roland is a lot quieter acoustically in the studio than a computer is. aside from that, the Mbox may give better quality recordings than the Roland, but I have no experience with either one. perhaps someone else here has direct experience with both and can chime in? The reason I would do this is because I am wary of the "latency" thing--I have trouble enough staying in time when I track with a click, if I have to deal with lags in my monitors, I will be screwed. Also, I am used to the Roland now and could monitor with its effects. then don't change. stick with what you know and get to the business of recording instead of futzing with your gear. -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | "Isn't an OS that openly and proudly admits to come directly from Holy UNIX better than a cheap UNIX copycat that needs to be sued in court to determine what the hell it really is?" -- Michael Sokolov |
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