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#1
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Pro amps vs. consumer amps
How do they compare? This question arises because a customer of mine
asked me about one of his amps, made by Crown. All he could tell me is that it cost about $500 and has a rated output of 450 watts per channel. I have been told that the finest components made are for professional use, but the prices for examples I have been given were very high. I am concerned about the many pro amps like this one that are so much cheaper than their consumer counterparts. Even though I have been in the audio business since 1978 I have no experience with the power amplifiers sold for professional use, as they are usually made and sold by different companies, and when a company makes both they have separate sales forces and dealer networks. Different stores - different customers. If this is a good $500 450 wpc amp what are high end consumers doing paying much higher prices for their amps? Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store Saint Louis, Missouri |
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#2
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Wylie Williams wrote:
How do they compare? This question arises because a customer of mine asked me about one of his amps, made by Crown. All he could tell me is that it cost about $500 and has a rated output of 450 watts per channel. I have been told that the finest components made are for professional use, but the prices for examples I have been given were very high. I am concerned about the many pro amps like this one that are so much cheaper than their consumer counterparts. Even though I have been in the audio business since 1978 I have no experience with the power amplifiers sold for professional use, as they are usually made and sold by different companies, and when a company makes both they have separate sales forces and dealer networks. Different stores - different customers. If this is a good $500 450 wpc amp what are high end consumers doing paying much higher prices for their amps? Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store Saint Louis, Missouri I also use a pro amp, the Yamaha 6150 6-channel. The quality is fine, very solidly built 19" rack-mountable, able to deliver 100% of the rating on all channels indefinitly. Big 1.8kVA transformer. 27kg weight. XLR inputs, no RCAs. I have it under the bed because the fans are quite loud when playing at listening levels. Around 1000$. I could not find a consumer amp, but now I am building a 6x400W from components without forced air cooling. I will use the digital modules UcD400 by Hypex, Netherlands. http://www.hypex.nl/ -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
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#3
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
... How do they compare? Very well. The biggest differences being in the build quality of the pro amps being superior, sincethey are meant for traveling, and that most of them seem to have cooling fans. This question arises because a customer of mine asked me about one of his amps, made by Crown. All he could tell me is that it cost about $500 and has a rated output of 450 watts per channel. I have been told that the finest components made are for professional use, but the prices for examples I have been given were very high. I am concerned about the many pro amps like this one that are so much cheaper than their consumer counterparts. Even though I have been in the audio business since 1978 I have no experience with the power amplifiers sold for professional use, as they are usually made and sold by different companies, and when a company makes both they have separate sales forces and dealer networks. Different stores - different customers. If this is a good $500 450 wpc amp what are high end consumers doing paying much higher prices for their amps? They seem to be paying for style and hype IMO. The science of amplification is a done deal. It has been possible for decades to build amplifiers that do not alter the signal being sent to them in any audible way. Check out the web sites of people like QSC, Crown, Alesis, and if you really want bang for your buck, this one, http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=ENG. There is one other difference, you'll have to use things like XLR connectors instead of RCA's. If you think about it becomes very clear, pro audio has to do the same job as consumer audio, but they don't have to appeal to people that feel the need to "upgrade" ever couple of years. They don't spend the enormous amounts of money in advertising that consumer audio or high end audio does. All they have to do is be clean and reliable, which as I said has been done for decades. |
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#4
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Wylie Williams wrote:
How do they compare? Pro amps are designed to take much more abuse than consumer amps. That abuse may come in the form a physical abuse from being hauled around from job to job. And then there's signal abuse from feedback, live microphones being disconnected or dropped. A good pro amp will have protection circuitry to enable it to withstand signal abuse. Pro amps are engineered for durability first, sound quality second. A lot of pro amps have cooling fans in them which would produce an unacceptable level of noise for a home user, but in a nightclub or rock concert setting, would not be a problem. That being said, I run Hafler pro-grade amps in my system and am pleased with the way they sound. They're MOSFET amps and have the sound characteristic of MOSFET amps, which I rather like. It's all about listening though. Get your hands on some pro grade amps and listen. The high powered ones mostly have fans, and so would not be suitable candidates. But the medium and lower powered amps would probably not have fans. Russ Button |
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#5
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"Professional" power amps are practically a commodity. There is very
little to differentiate these products, so price becomes a driving force. On forums dedicated to musicians, for instance, people talk about dollars per watt. Some companies are still trying to market the perception of quality, but this proves difficult when it is widely believed that everybody is plugged into the same network of material and production vendors in the Far East. There is also a perception that audio quality is mainly a function of speakers (and the skill of the musicians). In consumer electronics, there are simply more differentiating factors, thus price becomes less of a driving force. The big difference is the perception that quality is related to price, creating a "reverse elasticity." Other factors include aesthetics, craftsmanship, ergonomics, and so forth. Wylie Williams wrote: How do they compare? This question arises because a customer of mine asked me about one of his amps, made by Crown. All he could tell me is that it cost about $500 and has a rated output of 450 watts per channel. I have been told that the finest components made are for professional use, but the prices for examples I have been given were very high. I am concerned about the many pro amps like this one that are so much cheaper than their consumer counterparts. Even though I have been in the audio business since 1978 I have no experience with the power amplifiers sold for professional use, as they are usually made and sold by different companies, and when a company makes both they have separate sales forces and dealer networks. Different stores - different customers. If this is a good $500 450 wpc amp what are high end consumers doing paying much higher prices for their amps? Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store Saint Louis, Missouri |
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#6
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"Ban" wrote in message
... I also use a pro amp, the Yamaha 6150 6-channel. The quality is fine, very solidly built 19" rack-mountable, able to deliver 100% of the rating on all channels indefinitly. Big 1.8kVA transformer. 27kg weight. XLR inputs, no RCAs. I have it under the bed because the fans are quite loud when playing at listening levels. Around 1000$. I could not find a consumer amp, but now I am building a 6x400W from components without forced air cooling. I will use the digital modules UcD400 by Hypex, Netherlands. http://www.hypex.nl/ Hypex is also carried by Adire Audio here in the states and provide them with most of their subwoofer amps. I have one that has been in place for 2 years now without a problem. Good stuff. |
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#7
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I swapped out my McIntosh 2105 for a QSC PLX 2402 just to see what it
would be like. The Mac sounds way way better. Edwin |
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#8
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Edwin Hurwitz wrote:
I swapped out my McIntosh 2105 for a QSC PLX 2402 just to see what it would be like. The Mac sounds way way better. Like I said before, pro amps are built to be abused, physically and electrically. Sonic qualities are waaaaay down the list of engineeing criteria. Don't forget that most products are built to a price point. QSC amps are relatively cheap. That QSC amp is under $800 at Overstock.com, while the Mac 2105 probably cost $2000 or more when it was new, which hasn't been for some time now. It's like comparing a Chevy pickup truck to a Cadillac. You can carry a lot in each of 'em, but which one do you want to haul lumber in? What might be a more appropriate comparison would be for you to compare your QSC to a comparable Hafler pro amp, or even one of those B&K MOSFET amps. QSC is what you use for DJ setups and nobody cares what it sounds like at a DJ gig just so that it ***THUMPS*** enough. The McIntosh line has a reputation for durability beyond what the standard home audio manufacturer puts out. I used to run an electrostatic speaker which, under circumstances of signal abuse, would readily fry a home hi-fi amp. Your QSC would probably hold up. Not sure about the Mac. Russ |
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#9
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"Russ Button" wrote in message
... Edwin Hurwitz wrote: I swapped out my McIntosh 2105 for a QSC PLX 2402 just to see what it would be like. The Mac sounds way way better. Like I said before, pro amps are built to be abused, physically and electrically. Sonic qualities are waaaaay down the list of engineeing criteria. A friend had a couple of Crown DC300As put into a 8 panneled Tympani system (by Mel Schilling) when those speakers first appeared on the market. There was also a huge powered vertical standing sub in his system. He loaned one of the Crowns to me while my Ampzilla went in for one of its many repairs. I believe the Crown DC300A has seen many satisfactory applications in both home and pro systems. An exception to the urban legend? http://www.jands.com.au/jandsweb/audio_crown.html |
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#10
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wrote in message
... "Professional" power amps are practically a commodity. There is very little to differentiate these products, Just like consumer audio amps. so price becomes a driving force. On forums dedicated to musicians, for instance, people talk about dollars per watt. Some companies are still trying to market the perception of quality, but this proves difficult when it is widely believed that everybody is plugged into the same network of material and production vendors in the Far East. There is also a perception that audio quality is mainly a function of speakers (and the skill of the musicians). When you refer to SS amps that is largely true. The primary reason for the difference in price is that pro amps are not advertised in the very expensive pages of the consumer audio magiazines. Secondary resaons would include the lack of heatsinking and use of cooling fans on pro amps, which reduce weight and expense. If the performance factors such as THD, noise, current capability, IM distortion, channel separation, etc., there is no reason they should not perform exactly the same as any consumer amp. In consumer electronics, there are simply more differentiating factors, thus price becomes less of a driving force. The differentatig factors have more to do with cosmetics and hype than with performance. The big difference is the perception that quality is related to price, creating a "reverse elasticity." Other factors include aesthetics, craftsmanship, ergonomics, and so forth. |
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#11
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Michael McKelvy wrote:
When you refer to SS amps that is largely true. The primary reason for the difference in price is that pro amps are not advertised in the very expensive pages of the consumer audio magiazines. Secondary resaons would include the lack of heatsinking and use of cooling fans on pro amps, which reduce weight and expense. If the performance factors such as THD, noise, current capability, IM distortion, channel separation, etc., there is no reason they should not perform exactly the same as any consumer amp. Fan noise on a pro amp is *gigantic*! Any pro amp that has a fan is completely unacceptable in a home environment. What's the point of having a 100 db signal to noise ratio when the fan puts out 75 db of noise? I had a QSC amp once that was at least that loud. That's perfectly OK for a DJ who schleps his rack of gear around and runs a music mix for 200+ people in a rental hall or gymnasium. It's not OK for an audiophile home user. Does QSC even make an amp without a fan? For a while last year, I had an Hafler Pro 2400 power amp, at 120 wpc. It had no fan and sounded pretty good. It has a nasty turn-off transient and ran quite hot, but it sounded OK. The Hafler P1000 amps I'm using now have no turn-on or turn-off transients and sound terrific. They're also 50 wpc so they don't run anywhere near as hot either and I like the way they sound. In consumer electronics, there are simply more differentiating factors, thus price becomes less of a driving force. The differentatig factors have more to do with cosmetics and hype than with performance. If you take the time to listen to different amps, you do find real sonic differences. I'm not about to suggest that most pro amps sound as good as a good audiophile/consumer grade amp. But I do think it makes good sense to take an honest listen. Even though we all have champagne tastes, the truth is that the vast majority of us have budget constraints. My Orion setup requires 8 channels of amplification at approximately 60 watts per channel. If I were to go with some big name hi-end 2-channel amps at $2000 each, that would be $8000, which is a whole *LOT* more than I could possibly spend on amplification. And $2000 for a 2-channel amp is pretty pedestrian compared to the likes of Rowland Research, Krell, Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, etc. Imagine what it would cost me to run 4 McIntosh MC275 amps, not to mention the cost to re-tube every couple of years. It would provide great home heating in the winter, but would kill me in the summer! The differences between amplifiers is nowhere near as great as the differences between loudspeakers. So there may well be a pro amp that would be a great value for the home user. It would certainly be interesting to spend a couple of days doing comparitive auditions with the greats such as McIntosh tube amps, Rowland Research, Audio Research, more budget minded gear such as Parasound or B&K, compared to pro line gear (without fans) such as Hafler, Crown (do they have anything without fans?) and even older Altec pro grade tube amps. There are always tradeoffs and constraints to be considered in every buying decision, price being only one of them. There are also considerations as to physical space needs vs. availability, as well as cosmetic appearances. Not every domestic partner would stand for a stack of Altec pro (green panels, remember) tube amps driving a pair of Altec A-7's... The big difference is the perception that quality is related to price, creating a "reverse elasticity." Other factors include aesthetics, craftsmanship, ergonomics, and so forth. There is truth to this in that the very expensive hi-end stuff sells. I doubt very much that people in the market for a $10,000 Rowland Research amp will even consider listening to a $1000 Parasound amp. I'd be willing to wager that the sonic differences, while real, wouldn't be $9000 worth. Frankly, I'd be willing to set my Orions, driven by my $600 stack of Haflers (OK, I bought 'em on EBay), up against *ANY* commercial loudspeaker driven by any Rowland Research power amp. A Lexus is just a gussied up Toyota Camry. They share the same frame and drive train. But the Lexus has a lot of luxury details the Camry lacks. The Camry is a very comfortable and reliable car, but they sure sell a lot at the Lexus dealership! Russ |
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#12
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Norman M. Schwartz wrote:
A friend had a couple of Crown DC300As put into a 8 panneled Tympani system (by Mel Schilling) when those speakers first appeared on the market. There was also a huge powered vertical standing sub in his system. He loaned one of the Crowns to me while my Ampzilla went in for one of its many repairs. I believe the Crown DC300A has seen many satisfactory applications in both home and pro systems. An exception to the urban legend? http://www.jands.com.au/jandsweb/audio_crown.html The Crown DC300 series was an AUDIOPHILE legend, too. I believe it received raves from Stereophile...the J. Gordon Holt Stereophile. -Gene Poon |
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#13
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#14
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Nousaine wrote about power amps:
I'd go further and wager that no human could distiguish one from the other sonically. I'm going to disagree with you here. I've spent time listening to power amps and I hear clear differences. Sometimes they're subtle and something the differences are glaring. I do know that I'm comfortable with the sound of a good MOSFET amp. I got hooked on 'em years ago when I first bought a B&K amp. I remember one evening comparing a Hafler 500, a B&K ST-140 and an Adcom 545 MKII. The Hafler had more than twice the power of the other two, and had a nice smoothness to the sound, but somehow it lacked detail. The Adcom was just plain edgy. The B&K was clearly the best sounding of the lot. A couple months ago a friend came by with an interesting selection of phono preamps. We were listening to a Shure M-65 tube phono preamp, as well as the phono sections of several good preamps - Conrad-Johnson, Yamaha, GAS Thoebe and a McIntosh C22. It was a very interesting evening. Each had a distinctive quality and the worst of the bunch was the C22! I'm still using the Shure M-65 and it sounds pretty damn good. Russ |
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#15
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"Russ Button" wrote in message
... Michael McKelvy wrote: When you refer to SS amps that is largely true. The primary reason for the difference in price is that pro amps are not advertised in the very expensive pages of the consumer audio magiazines. Secondary resaons would include the lack of heatsinking and use of cooling fans on pro amps, which reduce weight and expense. If the performance factors such as THD, noise, current capability, IM distortion, channel separation, etc., there is no reason they should not perform exactly the same as any consumer amp. Fan noise on a pro amp is *gigantic*! Any pro amp that has a fan is completely unacceptable in a home environment. NOt having used one in my home I can't say how loud the noise might be. I have however been in homes of audiophiles who keep some of their gear in closets, where any noise from a fan is unlikely to be heard. What's the point of having a 100 db signal to noise ratio when the fan puts out 75 db of noise? I had a QSC amp once that was at least that loud. As measured by what? At the volyume levels I like, such noise would be completely masked, since the spl at my listening position is over 90 dB for much of what I listen to. Might be a problem for some classical or jazz, but not likely for Matchbox 20 or Santana. That's perfectly OK for a DJ who schleps his rack of gear around and runs a music mix for 200+ people in a rental hall or gymnasium. It's not OK for an audiophile home user. Does QSC even make an amp without a fan? Not any more, as far as I can see from their website. They did in the past. For a while last year, I had an Hafler Pro 2400 power amp, at 120 wpc. It had no fan and sounded pretty good. It has a nasty turn-off transient and ran quite hot, but it sounded OK. The Hafler P1000 amps I'm using now have no turn-on or turn-off transients and sound terrific. They're also 50 wpc so they don't run anywhere near as hot either and I like the way they sound. In consumer electronics, there are simply more differentiating factors, thus price becomes less of a driving force. The differentatig factors have more to do with cosmetics and hype than with performance. If you take the time to listen to different amps, you do find real sonic differences. I have listened to different amps, and I find that sonic differences tend to be few and far between. When they exist at all, they are usually because they were designed to deviate from flat response, were driving speaker loads that are difficult, or clipping. Flat response is flat response and doesn't sound different from one amp to the next. I'm not about to suggest that most pro amps sound as good as a good audiophile/consumer grade amp. I would suggest exactly that. But I do think it makes good sense to take an honest listen. It always makes sense to listen but there are some methods of doing so that are better than others. Even though we all have champagne tastes, the truth is that the vast majority of us have budget constraints. I resemble that remark. My Orion setup requires 8 channels of amplification at approximately 60 watts per channel. If I were to go with some big name hi-end 2-channel amps at $2000 each, that would be $8000, which is a whole *LOT* more than I could possibly spend on amplification. And $2000 for a 2-channel amp is pretty pedestrian compared to the likes of Rowland Research, Krell, Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, etc. Imagine what it would cost me to run 4 McIntosh MC275 amps, not to mention the cost to re-tube every couple of years. It would provide great home heating in the winter, but would kill me in the summer! Other than as a novelty, I have no interest in tubed equipment. I still remember going to the tube tester at the local Safeway when I was a kid. I see no reason to move backwards in technology. The differences between amplifiers is nowhere near as great as the differences between loudspeakers. Absolutely. I maintain that speaker technology is one of the final frontiers is audio, the other being how many will eventually be determined to be optimum for whatever ambience/surround mode that becomes the eventual standard. So there may well be a pro amp that would be a great value for the home user. I think there are many, particularly if you can put one where you won't hear the fan. It would certainly be interesting to spend a couple of days doing comparitive auditions with the greats such as McIntosh tube amps, Rowland Research, Audio Research, more budget minded gear such as Parasound or B&K, compared to pro line gear (without fans) such as Hafler, Crown (do they have anything without fans?) and even older Altec pro grade tube amps. As to the SS gear it would be interesting to see the faces of some of the people who would likely be surprised that they can't hear the difference between them and say a Rowland or Krell. Properly desinged tubed amps not driven to clipping should sound pretty much the same as well. There are always tradeoffs and constraints to be considered in every buying decision, price being only one of them. There are also considerations as to physical space needs vs. availability, as well as cosmetic appearances. Not every domestic partner would stand for a stack of Altec pro (green panels, remember) tube amps driving a pair of Altec A-7's... Why would someone choose such a partner? :-) The big difference is the I doubt very much that people in the market for a $10,000 Rowland Research amp will even consider listening to a $1000 Parasound amp. If they wish to over spend, that's up to them. I see no reason for it. I'd be willing to wager that the sonic differences, while real, wouldn't be $9000 worth. I be willing to wager they'd be mostly non-detectable. Frankly, I'd be willing to set my Orions, driven by my $600 stack of Haflers (OK, I bought 'em on EBay), up against *ANY* commercial loudspeaker driven by any Rowland Research power amp. If you can find someone to take that bet, soak them for all you can get. :-) |
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#16
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I find Pro amps to be excellent performers and excellent value.
Most have fans, but there are exceptions. The Crown K1 and K2 offer tons of power, are rated into loads as low as 2 ohms and have NO fans. I use a K2 and am very happy with it. The issue of RCA vs XLR can be solved by a simple cable with RCA on one end and XLR on the other (although that loses the "balance", so no long cable runs here). Many audiophile preamps offer balanced XLR output, so that may not be an issue. |
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#17
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Michael McKelvy wrote:
In consumer electronics, there are simply more differentiating factors, thus price becomes less of a driving force. The differentating factors have more to do with cosmetics and hype than with performance. Agreed. But they are differentiating factors all the same. The belief in a "price is quality" relationship is fabulous for the industry. |
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#18
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wrote in message
... Michael McKelvy wrote: In consumer electronics, there are simply more differentiating factors, thus price becomes less of a driving force. The differentating factors have more to do with cosmetics and hype than with performance. Agreed. But they are differentiating factors all the same. The belief in a "price is quality" relationship is fabulous for the industry. But not for the consumer. Someday, hopefully the consumer will wise up enough to know that for the most part ams are amps and perhaps go on to learn that stones aren't tweaks. Hey, I can dream can't I? |
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#19
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In article , Russ Button
wrote: Fan noise on a pro amp is *gigantic*! Any pro amp that has a fan is completely unacceptable in a home environment. What's the point of having a 100 db signal to noise ratio when the fan puts out 75 db of noise? Then Just disconnect the fan! That is what I did about 17 years ago on my Perreaux 6000B. I am still using it. Puts out 300wpch, but in a domestic setting it is rare for the heatsinks to get beyond slightly warm. Many recording studios use pro amps to drive their monitors so I do not give any credit to the statement that audio quality is way down the list of engineering criteria. Giles |
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#20
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Giles Stewart wrote:
In article , Russ Button wrote: Fan noise on a pro amp is *gigantic*! Then Just disconnect the fan! That is what I did about 17 years ago on my Perreaux 6000B. I am still using it. Puts out 300wpch, but in a domestic setting it is rare for the heatsinks to get beyond slightly warm. Are you saying that you have 300 wpc and you're not actually driving the amp hard enough to use 300 wpc? Why get an amp with that much power then? I once had a Hafler Pro2400 power amp at 120 wpc and it ran very hot. There was no fan, and it sounded pretty good, but it ran very hot. You wouldn't want to stack several of them together in a multi-amp setup. Many recording studios use pro amps to drive their monitors so I do not give any credit to the statement that audio quality is way down the list of engineering criteria. Recording studio requirements are entirely different from home audio requirements. In a studio, the big thing is saving space. You get all rack mount gear because it takes up less space. You're never going to see a professional studio with the likes of Krell, Rowland Research, or any of the fine tube amps that people like for home use. The point I've been trying to make all along is that equipment is engineered for specific reasons and to a price point. Compromises are always made. That's what engineering is. In the case of pro audio, the design criteria are durability in the face of physical and signal abuse, and taking up the minimal amount of rack mount space. Sonic quality is down the list. Hi-end home audio equipment is engineered for sonics first. The second criterial in design of home audio gear is appearances. If you're going to ask the outrageous sums that these manufacturers do, then you have to appeal to design esthetic which screams "ego". How else do you see rack handles on amps that don't rack mount? Why else do you see 1/2" thick brass plate on the front of an amp. Certain manufacturers have a signiture look - Rowland Research and McIntosh come to mind. You are suggesting that pro amps sound just as good as the very expensive hi-end amps, and that it's a waste of money to spend more than the $800 or $1000 you spend on a high powered pro amp. This is where we disagree. If you were to take a pair of Avalon Eidolon loudspeakers ($35k/pair) and carefully listen to them being driven by your Perreaux amp, and then by any number of other home audiophile grade amps, you'd hear some significant differences. Even with other less expensive audiophile grade loudspeakers, there would be significant differences. The Avalon line in particular, has extraordinary imaging. They really do "disappear" in a room, which is why people spend enormous sums for them. You'd find that your Perreaux amp would perform differently in terms of timbre, tonal balance and imaging. You may or may not prefer it, but it will be different. I run a tri-amped loudspeaker, which actually requires four stereo power amps, not three. So my costs are four times what it would be for someone else. I only need 60 wpc for my amps, but that's still a lot of money potentially. They also have to be identical amps, which is part of the loudspeaker designer's criteria. Four amps take up a lot of space. So what I use are pro-grade, Hafler P1000 amps. 1U pancakes which I rack mount, with 1U spacers between them for cooling. They're a MOSFET amp and have that characteristic MOSFET sound, which I happen to like. Would my system sound different/better if I were to run four Rowland Research amps, or four Audio Research D150 tube amps, or four Cary Audio tube amps? That would be fun to try. But until my hi-tech startup gets funded, grows to $50 million in annual sales, I become worth $millions and move into a home with a living room twice as big, then I won't be trying out all those cool amps anytime soon. Can you imagine how much space four Audio Research D150 amps would take up? Can you imagine how hard it would be to find four Audio Research 150 amps to buy? Can you imagine how much heat four Audio Research D150 amps would make? Can you imagine how much it would cost to re-tube four D150 amps? I picked up the Haflers on EBay for about $125 each. That's a total amp stack for $600. Not bad, and I do have to say it sounds pretty damn good. In fact, I feel my system sounds as good as anything I've ever heard, at any price. But would it sound different/better with something more hi-end? That would be fun to find out. I believe that amps do sound different, though not to the degree that loudspeakers do. I also believe that there are situations where a pro amp is actually superior for home use, even over high end amps like the ones I've mentioned above. Specifically home amps can be subjected to severe signal abuse when run into difficult loads, such as those presented by electrostatic loudspeakers. A pro amp has protection circuitry built-in that would sustain it during those rare circumstances where something went badly wrong. I used to run X-Static loudspeakers, which were wonderful, but deadly to an amp under the wrong circumstances. I had a home-brew tube preamp I was running that had the power supply go bad. I took it to a fine engineer here in the SF Bay Area and among other things, he re-engineered the power supply. When I picked it up, he was running it and it sounded great. But when I plugged it in at home, my B&K MOSFET power amp got fried. He'd made a mistake in his power supply design and inadvertantly created a megahertz oscillation in the preamp. That wasn't a problem at his place because he was running it into a tube power amp, which was driving a simple dynamic speaker on his bench. At home, it was a very different story. An electrostatic loudspeaker presents a load to an amp that looks like a big capacitor. The impedence rises dramatically with frequency, so it takes a good solid state amp with a lot of current capability to properly drive it. But with a megahertz oscillation going through the amp, it just bounces back from the loudspeaker and fries the outputs of a consumer grade amp immediately. I've seen this make of loudspeaker fry any number of consumer grade amps, including two I owned. That was part of the risk of getting the great sound these things had. Today I would only drive those speakers with a pro grade amp because of its ability to withstand signal abuse, and I'd get a big one with plenty of current capability. But it would run hot, so the amp would need large cooling fins and plenty of space around it. Your Perreaux probably wouldn't fit the bill as it came with a fan to begin with, and probably doesn't have sufficient passive cooling. I sold the X-Statics with that Hafler Pro2400 amp and it sounded pretty good. You'd think I'm making your point here, but I'm not. I'm saying that a pro-grade amp at home is appropriate when the situation calls for it. I do believe that there are sonic differences between amps, but circumstances sometimes dictate that sonic qualities can be of lesser importance than equipment safety or constraints of space and/or budget. Russ Button |
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On 16 Feb 2005 00:35:08 GMT, Russ Button wrote:
Hi-end home audio equipment is engineered for sonics first. The second criterial in design of home audio gear is appearances. You'll find that in the real commercial world, these priorities are in fact reversed - whatever the adverts and the sycophantic ragazine 'reviewers' may say. If you're going to ask the outrageous sums that these manufacturers do, then you have to appeal to design esthetic which screams "ego". How else do you see rack handles on amps that don't rack mount? Why else do you see 1/2" thick brass plate on the front of an amp. Certain manufacturers have a signiture look - Rowland Research and McIntosh come to mind. Quite so. All sizzle, and the same steak as everyone else. USDA prime, certainly, but there's lots of that on the market, and it doesn't have to be wrapped in gold foil to taste good................. You are suggesting that pro amps sound just as good as the very expensive hi-end amps, and that it's a waste of money to spend more than the $800 or $1000 you spend on a high powered pro amp. This is where we disagree. Do you have any *proof* to back up your assertion? This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. If you were to take a pair of Avalon Eidolon loudspeakers ($35k/pair) and carefully listen to them being driven by your Perreaux amp, and then by any number of other home audiophile grade amps, you'd hear some significant differences. No, you would not, given that all the amps can produce adequate power. Even with other less expensive audiophile grade loudspeakers, there would be significant differences. The Avalon line in particular, has extraordinary imaging. They really do "disappear" in a room, which is why people spend enormous sums for them. Indeed so - and they can be driven by any competent amplifier. It's the *speaker* that makes the difference. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#22
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In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote: This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. Hungover, and with a defective comparator box that broke before completing the test. Isn't it time to declare this anecdote 'inoperative'? Stephen |
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MINe 109 wrote:
In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. Hungover, and with a defective comparator box that broke before completing the test. Isn't it time to declare this anecdote 'inoperative'? Sure--just as soon as you come up with an anecdote about someone who was sober, using a working switchbox (or no switchbox!), would COULD hear such a difference. Otherwise, all you're doing is making excuses. bob |
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 16 Feb 2005 00:35:08 GMT, Russ Button wrote: You are suggesting that pro amps sound just as good as the very expensive hi-end amps, and that it's a waste of money to spend more than the $800 or $1000 you spend on a high powered pro amp. This is where we disagree. Do you have any *proof* to back up your assertion? Only my own experience. But I do believe that not everyone hears things the same way, and it may well be that others would not hear the same things I do. This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. I wish I could have been there for that. Where I typically hear differences is in things like clarity and tonal balance. Mind you, the differences are not always very striking, but they are there. If you were to take a pair of Avalon Eidolon loudspeakers ($35k/pair) and carefully listen to them being driven by your Perreaux amp, and then by any number of other home audiophile grade amps, you'd hear some significant differences. No, you would not, given that all the amps can produce adequate power. I went to Las Vegas CES last month and went into a couple of different suites that had Avalon Eidolon loudspeakers. While there was a lot of similarity, there were also audible differences between the two presentations. At least to my ear. Of course being in two different rooms may well have had something to do with it too. I listened to the same recordings all day long and came away with a pretty clear idea of what sounded like what. Even with other less expensive audiophile grade loudspeakers, there would be significant differences. The Avalon line in particular, has extraordinary imaging. They really do "disappear" in a room, which is why people spend enormous sums for them. Indeed so - and they can be driven by any competent amplifier. It's the *speaker* that makes the difference. I'm sure they can be driven by "any competent amplifier", but I do contend that many people will hear differences between amplifiers. I also believe that the differences will not necessarily be huge. Whether an individual is willing to spend more to have one amplifier versus another is a personal decision. I've never owned a real hi-ticket amp. I've never had the megabucks to do it. I've always purchased used gear or other "good value" products. I ran a B&K ST-140 for 17 years and enjoyed it until it finally died and was too expensive to repair. I've always put the bulk of my money into my speakers, which is what I think is where the value is in audio. I agree with you that the majority of audio quality is in the speakers, but I disagree that there aren't differences in amplifiers. That being said, I think that if you carefully choose amongst the lower priced amplifiers you'd find something highly satisfying. I think that the big megabuck amps are for those people who have enough wealth to where the price tag is irrelevant, and what's wrong with that? I don't think there's anything you do with a car that can't be satisfied with a less expensive car like a Saturn. Go to your local Saturn dealer and they have little cars, mid-sized cars and SUVs. A car gets you from here to there, keeps you dry in the rain, keeps you warm while you drive in the winter, keeps you cool when you drive in the summer, and has enough room for groceries. There's very, very little anyone really needs from a car that they couldn't get from a Saturn product. But somehow people seem to buy a lot of cars that are more expensive than Saturns. Both Behringer and Gemini make pro grade power amps with at least 200 wpc at 8 ohms, for less than $300 new. They both use fans, so for home use you'd have to disconnect the fans, hoping they would run sufficiently cool under normal home usage. A similar Peavy amp can be had for about $650. I'm partial to Hafler amps, but their comparable 200 wpc, fanless amp is about $1000. They have sufficient heat sinks that you could run these at home without worry. The Parasound HCA-1500 is a 200wpc amp that retails for about $800. A Hafler DH-500 can readily be found on the used market for about $450 or so. A Dynaco 400 can probably be had for $250. The question I'd put to you is which of these amps you'd run. Do you believe that there are any sonic differences between them? Is a Dyna 400 all the amp anyone could want? Russ Button |
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On 17 Feb 2005 01:04:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. Hungover, and with a defective comparator box that broke before completing the test. Isn't it time to declare this anecdote 'inoperative'? Zip certainly *claimed* to be hungover - at a test of his professional reputation which had been arranged for weeks............. The first set of trials did not use the box, the second set took place on the following day, so all parties were definitely rested and sober, the only 'fault' was an occasional failure to switch when commanded, and all three of Zip, Gigi and an audiophile friend of Zip totally failed to tell any difference. I have also performed many such comparisons, with similar results in most cases. Isn't it time to put the myth of 'amplifier sound' to rest? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#27
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"MINe 109" wrote in message
... In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. Hungover, and with a defective comparator box that broke before completing the test. Isn't it time to declare this anecdote 'inoperative'? Hungover? Why would someone drink himself sick when he knows he's going to take a test the next day? Maybe he wasn't hungover. Maybe it was just an excuse. Norm Strong |
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
. . . . Do you have any *proof* to back up your assertion? This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. . . . But then, that's a consumer amp verses a consumer amp  CD |
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#29
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... Quite so. All sizzle, and the same steak as everyone else. USDA prime, certainly, but there's lots of that on the market, and it doesn't have to be wrapped in gold foil to taste good................. IWC does put their Portuguese in in Rose Gold case. If I had the bucks, I'd go for it; I'm only going to live once! |
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MINe 109 wrote:
In article , wrote: MINe 109 wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. Hungover, and with a defective comparator box that broke before completing the test. Isn't it time to declare this anecdote 'inoperative'? Sure--just as soon as you come up with an anecdote about someone who was sober, using a working switchbox (or no switchbox!), would COULD hear such a difference. No, I don't think that's necessary. Why defend such a questionable test? Why misrepresent the test the way you've done? That's rather questionable behavior itself. If Stewart is going to trot out the tired and discredited "experienced high-end dealer" wheeze, The only things dsicredited those trials -- which AIUI tested not only Steve Zipser, but two other listeners as well -- was the claim that the cables and amps could be reliably told apart by the parties involved, based on sound alone, under conditions that were blind but otherwise of the listener's choosing. This claim was Steve Zipser's. But surely Tom Nousaine himself could give you a better account, either here,, or in the dozens of posts that have appeared about this tests on Usenet since they were held. |
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 17 Feb 2005 01:04:06 GMT, MINe 109 wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: This game has been played before, and a very experienced high-end dealer failed to tell any difference between a $12,000 pair of Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocs, and an old Yamaha integrated amplifier. This was in his own room, with his own 'reference' system and his own choice of music. Hungover, and with a defective comparator box that broke before completing the test. Isn't it time to declare this anecdote 'inoperative'? Zip certainly *claimed* to be hungover - at a test of his professional reputation which had been arranged for weeks............. Reading over Tom's reports of the trial, it also appears Zip tried to weasel out of the trials...not answering the phone, closing up shop at the time the first meeting was to take place, balking at level-matching... not exactly encouraging behaviour. The first set of trials did not use the box, the second set took place on the following day, so all parties were definitely rested and sober, the only 'fault' was an occasional failure to switch when commanded, and all three of Zip, Gigi and an audiophile friend of Zip totally failed to tell any difference. I have also performed many such comparisons, with similar results in most cases. Isn't it time to put the myth of 'amplifier sound' to rest? It should also be kept ever in mind that Zip claimed he could easily tell 'his' favorites from other components, due to his familiarity with them as a dealer. He failed to do so, using both cable-switching and an ABX switchbox, in *his* listening room using *his* 'familiar' gear in the tests. Even if the test was flawed -- and a manual cable-switching protocol is certainly not ideal -- what happened to the 'easily' heard difference? A manual cable switch isn't *more* flawed than a typical sighted comparison, the sort where Zip claimed to excel at 'picking' his amps from others. -- -S If you're a nut and knock on enough doors, eventually someone will open one, look at you and say, Messiah, we have waited for your arrival. |
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On 18 Feb 2005 00:27:00 GMT, MINe 109
wrote: If Stewart is going to trot out the tired and discredited "experienced high-end dealer" wheeze, he should be truthful and say, "hungover experienced high-end dealer with a broken comparator and a last-minute substitution of DUT." Those aren't excuses, those are facts. How about *claimed* he was hungover (in preparation for a comparison where he *knew* his perception was to be tested? Yeah, riiight...) experienced high-end dealer who couldn't tell the difference without the comparator box, which he then requested for the next day? The box worked fine, apart from sometimes not switching immediately on command. And none of the three experienced audiophiles in the test could tell the difference. *Those* are the facts, so why are *you* so desperate to discredit this test, while showing *no* evidence of any such test with a *positive* result? Is it because you already *know* that 'amplifier sound' is a myth? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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On 18 Feb 2005 00:34:55 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Quite so. All sizzle, and the same steak as everyone else. USDA prime, certainly, but there's lots of that on the market, and it doesn't have to be wrapped in gold foil to taste good................. IWC does put their Portuguese in in Rose Gold case. If I had the bucks, I'd go for it; I'm only going to live once! But they also put the 5001 movement in a steel case, giving identical performance at half the price. I'm pretty sure that no one ever claimed that the rose gold version kept better time. Now, regarding the beautifully turned faceplates on Jeff Rowland amps, do you think they improve the sound? Why can't you buy a JR, or Mark Levinson, amp in a pressed steel case at half the price? You can of course by a Pass Labs amp at half the price - it's called an Adcom............. :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#34
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In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On 18 Feb 2005 00:27:00 GMT, MINe 109 wrote: If Stewart is going to trot out the tired and discredited "experienced high-end dealer" wheeze, he should be truthful and say, "hungover experienced high-end dealer with a broken comparator and a last-minute substitution of DUT." Those aren't excuses, those are facts. How about *claimed* he was hungover (in preparation for a comparison where he *knew* his perception was to be tested? Yeah, riiight...) Okay, and, yes, not too smart prep-wise. experienced high-end dealer who couldn't tell the difference without the comparator box, which he then requested for the next day? The box worked fine, apart from sometimes not switching immediately on command. And none of the three experienced audiophiles in the test could tell the difference. *Those* are the facts, so why are *you* so desperate to discredit this test, while showing *no* evidence of any such test with a *positive* result? Is it because you already *know* that 'amplifier sound' is a myth? Slow down! He claimed the box broke so that he couldn't finish the last set choices. This test barely qualifies as an anecdote. FWIW, I don't care whether he could hear differences or not. When someone shows that the test can show real differences with music, then I'll worry about the lack of positives. In the meantime, I'll enjoy some tunes on the Quads powered by my $250 integrated amp and commodity wire. Stephen |
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MINe 109 wrote:
FWIW, I don't care whether he could hear differences or not. When someone shows that the test can show real differences with music, then I'll worry about the lack of positives. What, you think no psychoacoustics researcher has ever used musical passages in a DBT? How do you think they test perceptual codecs? Wouldn't do much good to test a codec with pink noise and sine waves, would it? bob |
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... I'm pretty sure that no one ever claimed that the rose gold version kept better time. Now, regarding the beautifully turned faceplates on Jeff Rowland amps, do you think they improve the sound? Why can't you buy a JR, or Mark Levinson, amp in a pressed steel case at half the price? You can of course by a Pass Labs amp at half the price - it's called an Adcom............. :-) -- Right, no one does claim better accuracy from rose gold or better sound from beautifully turned faceplates, however think about "matters of the heart", (sound is for many audiophiles) isn't it more valuable to be in the company of good looking bodies? |
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MINe 109 wrote:
In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On 18 Feb 2005 00:27:00 GMT, MINe 109 wrote: If Stewart is going to trot out the tired and discredited "experienced high-end dealer" wheeze, he should be truthful and say, "hungover experienced high-end dealer with a broken comparator and a last-minute substitution of DUT." Those aren't excuses, those are facts. How about *claimed* he was hungover (in preparation for a comparison where he *knew* his perception was to be tested? Yeah, riiight...) Okay, and, yes, not too smart prep-wise. experienced high-end dealer who couldn't tell the difference without the comparator box, which he then requested for the next day? The box worked fine, apart from sometimes not switching immediately on command. And none of the three experienced audiophiles in the test could tell the difference. *Those* are the facts, so why are *you* so desperate to discredit this test, while showing *no* evidence of any such test with a *positive* result? Is it because you already *know* that 'amplifier sound' is a myth? Slow down! He claimed the box broke so that he couldn't finish the last set choices. This test barely qualifies as an anecdote. FWIW, I don't care whether he could hear differences or not. When someone shows that the test can show real differences with music, then I'll worry about the lack of positives. That's been shown dozens, perhaps hundreds, of times. Even with cables, if they're different enough folr it to matter audibly. Hell, Floyd Toole uses it to test speakers at Harman Kardon/JBL. So start worrying. -- -S It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying before the House Armed Services Committee |
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On 19 Feb 2005 00:51:48 GMT, MINe 109
wrote: (about the 'Sunshine Trials'): He claimed the box broke so that he couldn't finish the last set choices. This test barely qualifies as an anecdote. The test worked fine when you look at what actually occurred, as opposed to what Zip claimed much later. You should note that immediately after the test, he acknowledged that he had been beaten fair and square. It was only a couple of weeks later (sales dropping off, perhaps?) that he changed his story. FWIW, I don't care whether he could hear differences or not. When someone shows that the test can show real differences with music, then I'll worry about the lack of positives. If you pick a genuinely poor amp, it does. Indeed, I have posted positive results of amplifier comparisons. Try it with an SET..... In the meantime, I'll enjoy some tunes on the Quads powered by my $250 integrated amp and commodity wire. And why not? It's all about the music! -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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In article ,
Steven Sullivan wrote: Me: FWIW, I don't care whether he could hear differences or not. When someone shows that the test can show real differences with music, then I'll worry about the lack of positives. That's been shown dozens, perhaps hundreds, of times. Even with cables, if they're different enough folr it to matter audibly. Even then? :-) Hell, Floyd Toole uses it to test speakers at Harman Kardon/JBL. So start worrying. Is that the same facility Sean Olive uses? I recall someone posting that he published a paper that included describing the process of screening listers for the ability to detect differences. I read a more interesting point in the new Stereophile about blind tests of colas in which neural images showed that when tasters were told the names of the drinks different parts of their brains were engaged, perhaps because of the associations, memories, etc brought about. There were no real differences, but the differences were real! Listening to music could very well be similar. I would be open to this type of bridging the gap: assuming identical sound (everybody happy?) could yield differing perceptions that are measurably real. No worries, Stephen |
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