What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

On 5 Mar 2004 12:59:02 -0800, (t_cos) wrote:

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Generally, speakers but that depends on how bad your amp is. ;-)

Kal

"t_cos" wrote in message
om
What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

There are no guarantees in life or audio. However, the presumption that your
amp is a good amp, is a more likely presumption that your speaker is a good
speaker. Please note that the sound quality of a speaker is highly dependent
on the room it is in, and where the speaker and listener are in that room.

"t_cos" wrote in message
om...
What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Better speakers.
However, there are cases where this is not true, so feel free to run the
specifics by us.

Arny said:

"t_cos" wrote in message
. com
What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

There are no guarantees in life or audio. However, the presumption that your
amp is a good amp, is a more likely presumption that your speaker is a good
speaker. Please note that the sound quality of a speaker is highly dependent
on the room it is in, and where the speaker and listener are in that room.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio systems sound
like ****.

Boon

Marc Phillips wrote:

Arny said:


"t_cos" wrote in message
.com

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

There are no guarantees in life or audio. However, the presumption that your
amp is a good amp, is a more likely presumption that your speaker is a good
speaker. Please note that the sound quality of a speaker is highly dependent
on the room it is in, and where the speaker and listener are in that room.


Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio systems sound
like ****.

Actually, he got this exactly right. An amplifier is actually quite a
simple device once you remove the processors and useless features
and such. It is very unlikely that an amplifier is "bad" other than
it isn't capable of properly driving the load from the speakers.

I don't remember the last time I had an amplifier blow up, though
I've seen speakers do that from time to time.

With new and/or better speakers, the problem is very likely to
be solved. Plus, you get better sound out of the deal.

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a child.

Boon

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making fun of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious then
you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to explain
this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has been
making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

"WorldJAZZ" said:

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Better speakers.
However, there are cases where this is not true, so feel free to run the
specifics by us.

However, better speakers might reveal a bad amplifier
design...............happened to me!

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Boon

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making fun
of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious then
you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to explain
this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has been
making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in 1996.
What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

Boon

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that
the Marc Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Thanks Phillips for demonstrating that you are so illiterate that you can't
tell the difference between an uppercase I and a lowercase L.

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal
insight to realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply
making fun of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions
obnoxious then you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm
sorry I had to explain this to you but there comes a time when it
almost becomes uncomfortable to see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can
think about what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk
reaction that Marc has been making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect
the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here
in 1996. What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

What's to figure out? You guys are obviously infatuated with me.

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal
insight to realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply
making fun of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions
obnoxious then you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm
sorry I had to explain this to you but there comes a time when it
almost becomes uncomfortable to see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can
think about what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk
reaction that Marc has been making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect
the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here
in 1996. What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

What's to figure out? You guys are obviously infatuated with me.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your abnormalities are distracting to others.

Boon

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that
the Marc Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Thanks Phillips for demonstrating that you are so illiterate that you can't
tell the difference between an uppercase I and a lowercase L.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that even when you correct your typos, you still
make no sense.

Boon

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making fun
of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious
then
you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to explain
this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has been
making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in 1996.

What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

Boon







Nothing. I just think even he deserves the occassional explination.

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal
insight to realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply
making fun of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions
obnoxious then you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm
sorry I had to explain this to you but there comes a time when it
almost becomes uncomfortable to see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can
think about what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk
reaction that Marc has been making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect
the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here
in 1996. What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

What's to figure out? You guys are obviously infatuated with me.









Obviously, Arny hasn't figured out anything so far.

"t_cos" wrote in message
om...
What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better
speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

More to the point, what makes you think either one has to be replaced?
IOW, what's wrong with what you have?

Norm Strong

Mr. Phillips wrote:


Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Boon







Thanks, Mr.Phillips, for recommending that excellent music video with Paul
Simon & Chevy Chase - "You Can Call Me Al".



Bruce J. Richman

S888Wheel said:

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making
fun
of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious
then
you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to
explain
this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has
been
making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in
1996.

What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

Boon







Nothing. I just think even he deserves the occassional explination.

Really? Personally, I don't think he deserves anything nicer than a swift kick
in the nutsack.

Boon

Dr. Richman said:

Mr. Phillips wrote:


Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Boon







Thanks, Mr.Phillips, for recommending that excellent music video with Paul
Simon & Chevy Chase - "You Can Call Me Al".

Thanks Dr Richman for admitting that you post under an alias.

Boon

In article ,
says...

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Better speakers.
----------
Alex

Maybe both are at fault. Have you considered an active monitor rather
than a huge floor-hugging amp, huge cables, and speakers with passive
crossovers? Most of the best orchestral and opera productions and most
film work is mixed down and mastered on active monitors. Maybe for
good reason.

From: (t_cos)
Date: 3/5/04 12:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.


Assuming whatever amp you have is working properly and is also solid state, the
obvious answer is ALWAYS speakers.

It's not a big deal for any SS amp to produce good Frequency Response and drive
a wide variety of speaker loads.

There are of course some speakers that are more difficult to drive thab others,
most are not.

Since speakers are the only part you really "hear," it makes more sense to
spend your money there with speakers that can be driven by whatever amp you
have.

I'd also suggest that you look at some of the DIY sites like www.madisound.com
or www.zalytron.com for some DIY spekaer kits. Most of these require no more
than a few hours to put together and you don't need much more than a
screwdriver and maybe a soldering iron. You can of course, get by witout any
soldering. The amount of money saved is substantial, usually about 3-5 times
what you would spend on a name brand speakers system.

Good luck.

S888Wheel said:

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?


When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making
fun
of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious
then
you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to
explain
this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think
about
what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has
been
making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in
1996.

What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

Boon







Nothing. I just think even he deserves the occassional explination.

Really? Personally, I don't think he deserves anything nicer than a swift
kick
in the nutsack.

Boon







You have dealt with him longer than I have. I may eventually change my mind.

Mr. Phillips wrote:

Dr. Richman said:

Mr. Phillips wrote:


Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message


Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the
Marc
Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Boon







Thanks, Mr.Phillips, for recommending that excellent music video with Paul
Simon & Chevy Chase - "You Can Call Me Al".

Thanks Dr Richman for admitting that you post under an alias.

Boon








Prove it.

Asked and answered.

LOT'S!



Bruce J. Richman

(Mikermckelvy) wrote in message ...
From: (t_cos)
Date: 3/5/04 12:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.


Assuming whatever amp you have is working properly and is also solid state, the
obvious answer is ALWAYS speakers.

It's not a big deal for any SS amp to produce good Frequency Response and drive
a wide variety of speaker loads.

There are of course some speakers that are more difficult to drive thab others,


most are not.

Since speakers are the only part you really "hear," it makes more sense to
spend your money there with speakers that can be driven by whatever amp you
have.

I'd also suggest that you look at some of the DIY sites like www.madisound.com
or www.zalytron.com for some DIY spekaer kits. Most of these require no more
than a few hours to put together and you don't need much more than a
screwdriver and maybe a soldering iron. You can of course, get by witout any
soldering. The amount of money saved is substantial, usually about 3-5 times
what you would spend on a name brand speakers system.

Good luck.


It used to be said that there is a heirarchy in HiFi, starting from
the source thro amp and ,lastly ,speakers. Personally I would start
with a good amp that delivered plenty of genuine wattage( ie doesnt
run out of steam) and an then efficient pair of speakers ( 88db
upwards in sensitivity)

Michael Dennis wrote:

It used to be said that there is a heirarchy in HiFi, starting from
the source thro amp and ,lastly ,speakers. Personally I would start
with a good amp that delivered plenty of genuine wattage( ie doesnt
run out of steam) and an then efficient pair of speakers ( 88db
upwards in sensitivity)

Unfortunately, if you stuff a 350 V8 into that VW bug, it's
just a bunch of wasted power.

Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
sense.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
hlink.net

Unless you alrady have high-end
speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
sense.

Upgrade the speakers until you really know what's wrong with the sound of
the amp.

Thanks for your opinion. I have a b&w cdm-9nt and a b&k 4430. I
don't have a problem with either but just curious. If I were to
upgrade, which would you think would be money better spent - better
speakers or better amp?

"WorldJAZZ" wrote in message ...
"t_cos" wrote in message
om...
What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Better speakers.
However, there are cases where this is not true, so feel free to run the
specifics by us.

t_cos wrote:

Thanks for your opinion. I have a b&w cdm-9nt and a b&k 4430. I
don't have a problem with either but just curious. If I were to
upgrade, which would you think would be money better spent - better
speakers or better amp?

Let's start with the speaker side of the equation:

- Budget?
- What are you looking for in the improved sound?
- Special concerns like odd shaped room or needs to be in-wall
or whatnot. Wife saying "get rid of those eyesores" sort
of thing?
- What's the power of your current amplifier - and how low
an impedance load will it handle?

It's not any big deal for any amp, tube or solid state, to do all the
"book stuff" right: there are tube amps that meet all THD and noise
floor parms of about any production solid state amp. It's not
fundamentally about tubes, for or against. There are amplifiers that
do all the book stuff right and seem to be bad sounding. I don't feel
the need to prove it scientifically. May or may not be true. It's a
moot issue because "good sounding good measuring" amps exist, tube,
bipolar, mosfet, and hybrid.

The weak link in the 'high-end' chain is the passive crossover. Some
are better than others, but crossing over before the amplifier
electronically is guaranteed a better solution in every way. The
amplifier doesn't have to deal with multiple 'carriers' and intermod
doesn't get created in the first place, and the amplifier can be
scaled to fit the driver and its needs, and can control the cone
(damping factor!) much better.

The numerous unnecessary interconnnects, with their RCA connectors,
and ground loop possibilities, and the disinclination to 1) run a
first rate ground and 2) take advantage of the 230V balanced power
almost all homes in the US have, are further signs that High End, as
practiced by the non-DIY crowd, is about penis size rather than sound.

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message thlink.net...
Michael Dennis wrote:

It used to be said that there is a heirarchy in HiFi, starting from
the source thro amp and ,lastly ,speakers. Personally I would start
with a good amp that delivered plenty of genuine wattage( ie doesnt
run out of steam) and an then efficient pair of speakers ( 88db
upwards in sensitivity)

Unfortunately, if you stuff a 350 V8 into that VW bug, it's
just a bunch of wasted power.

Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
sense.

There was a trime , about thirty years ago when it was generally
thought that speakers made the greatest difference. Up till that time
turntables were much of a muchness either solid(Garrard) or suspended
subchassis designs which all looked kind of similar (pioneer pl12,
Thorens, AR). Then along came Linn products and the vaunted Linn
Sondek which changed everything and the heirarchical principal held
sway, ie the source was the most important link in the chain followe
by arm , cartridge, amp( preferably pre power) and lastly speakers."
Experts " claimed that is was better to play a first class T/t thro a
decent amp and average speakers than using high end speakers and
ordinary sources / amplification. Linn sondek became the t/t to own
and its price went up ten fold. Even now used ones can fetch $1000( £
600). I remember this dealer telling me they didnt cost much more than
£50 to make , this sowed the seads of cynisism within me.Obviuosly the
"principle" was very beneficial to Linn products and its owner became
very rich.Other manufacturers stepped into the breach making weirder
and weirder t/ts using perspex, brass , bronze and thick platters(eg
Michel gyrodec)in order to entice people to part with substantial
amounts of money.
At the same time a differnt mantra reared its head namely its better
to buy a pre /power than integrated amp, and whilst your at it
consider having seperate power supplies for each component( including
t/t) so Naim steps in and manufactures minimilist products - no tone
controls lights or gizmos , just a volume knob and selector and
advices everyone one to fill a rack full of boxes that make up an amp
and spend a fortune in the process. Naim also became very rich! Now I
know I am a cynic but as someone who enjoys music reproduction but is
in no way technically minded I have one question : Where does truth
end and bull**** begin?
Nowdays I own a valve pre/power namely Audio Innovation 800 and Leak
stereo 20( made in the fifties). I have a modest multibit Rotel 955 cd
player about ten years old and an Alphason sonata t/t which cost me a
lot of money because I was taken in by the "received wisdom" of the
day. As these are no longer made servicing is impossible- in short it
has become obsolete.Alphason have found they can make a load more
dough out making equipment supports.
My speakers are a modest pair of Heybrook Hb1's- about 15 years old .
In truth I am quite content with the sound and would only change the
speakers if I could afford a good pair of horn loaded ones such as
Tannoy Westminster or Lowther. They reproduce the kind of sound that I
am most comfortable with.

Incidentally as t/ t sales have dropped it seems the mantra has
changed and the advice is spend 33% on each component.This is the Uk
maybe in the Usa things are different.

Michael Dennis wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message thlink.net...

Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
sense.

(snip turntable-related blather)

Incidentally as t/ t sales have dropped it seems the mantra has
changed and the advice is spend 33% on each component.This is the Uk
maybe in the Usa things are different.

This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.

For a basic system, I'd recommend changing the speakers first and
then the amplifier

Joseph Oberlander said:

This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.

Nah.........olde Ivor Tiefenbrun *is* a salesman.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

The Linn Sondek is an upscale AR, similar to what Merrill did, except
Tiefenbrun was a far better bull**** artist. The Sondek is a good
table but overpriced, more so than most high end products. It was an
improvement over some of the tables of its day, maybe most, but the
whole idea of more money equaling better sound has some severe limits,
physical and psychological. It's a proven fact that the "mainstream
High End buyer" correlates quality of performance to financial outlay,
and therefore attempts to provide quality inexpensively are often
doomed. Many High End products are actually cheaply made except for
their outer casings.

Nevertheless, really good sound does cost money. It would cost a lot
less if there were a large number of buyers for well designed
equipment priced reasonably proportion to its build cost, and those
customers understood concepts like build cost in the first place.
(There are several over-$10,000 tube amplifiers available, but there
are none-priced there or lower-which are as well built as a Vollum-era
Tektronix oscilloscope or a Collins R-390.) I have my prejudices and
preferences as everyone does, but unless you build your own,good
amplifiers, preamps, and speakers are expensive and you might as well
buy new or late-model-used, because there are no vintage bargains
anymore.

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message ink.net...
Michael Dennis wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message thlink.net...

Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
sense.

(snip turntable-related blather)

Incidentally as t/ t sales have dropped it seems the mantra has
changed and the advice is spend 33% on each component.This is the Uk
maybe in the Usa things are different.

This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.

For a basic system, I'd recommend changing the speakers first and
then the amplifier

Its not only salesmen but magazine journalists as well with their
biased reporting- they regularly favour some products and ignore many
others( including Sugden) In fact I believe to be them that sow the
seeds of bull**** in the first place.Same goes for wires.

Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
Joseph Oberlander said:

This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.

Nah.........olde Ivor Tiefenbrun *is* a salesman.


He is also a very astute business man. He insists that his products
are only sold with others that he approves of therefore showing his in
a good light.Freemarket? Dont think so.